Open Tennis Serve

oserver · Mar 22, 2017

mcs1970 said:
Your shots are certainly good for your age bracket. What has probably held you back from moving even higher is your obsession with a crappy serve that 99% of beginners already use, before they decide to get serious about Tennis. Anyway, either you're just too stubborn to see that or you're probably having a good time trolling all of us. The fact that you actually posted some papers about this shows that it's probably the former than the latter.

My stubbornness will vanish if studies are carried out by reputable institutions to prove all A, B, D serves (open tennis serves) cannot compete with C serves at intermediate level or advanced level. Many naysayers have never seriously tried. A few days ago, a 5.0 player posted here, saying he tried open stance serve and came back from losing first set. You guys can ask him whether it is true or not.

Shroud · Mar 22, 2017

oserver said:
Yes, current I'm using semi-western grip (my forehand grip) to serve. You get more spin than using continental grip so the first serve in can be better.

Played 5 post season matches (at district/sectional level) just a few months switching to open stance serves.

Topspin? Or lefty slice??

Shroud · Mar 22, 2017

oserver said:
My stubbornness will vanish if studies are carried out by reputable institutions to prove all A, B, D serves (open tennis serves) cannot compete with C serves at intermediate level or advanced level. Many naysayers have never seriously tried. A few days ago, a 5.0 player posted here, saying he tried open stance serve and came back from losing first set. You guys can ask him whether it is true or not.

Be prepared to be stubborn. No one is going to research that.

oserver · Mar 22, 2017

Topspin Shot said:
Lmao, his serve is way better than yours. The wide serves aren't supposed to hit the fence on the first bounce.

What, So you never bounce the wide serves to the fence even once?

S&V-not_dead_yet · Mar 22, 2017

AllCourtHeathen said:
I'm just gonna do a 360 and walk away from this thread

But if you did a 360, you'd be right back in the thread, no?

oserver · Mar 22, 2017

Power Player said:
What's the difference? You made a weak offer and he countered by telling you when and where he plays. He has even posted his phone number on this website before. It seems to be a very popular place to play and you could probably meet some other players as well. But, I guess posting fantasy on the internet and not having the ego shattered is a safer thing to do.

Have you ever played in USTA or formal league? Home advantage has to be earned, not granted by oneself.

oserver · Mar 22, 2017

pabletion said:
!!!!!!!!!

(I was a 5.0 player in 2007, now Im a 4.0, 4.5 on a great day.............).

Haha, if that is the case, you really need to dig out open tennis serve options (A, B, D). Stick to C option may get you into 3.5, 4.0 some day soon.......

pabletion · Mar 23, 2017

oserver said:
Haha, if that is the case, you really need to dig out open tennis serve options (A, B, D). Stick to C option may get you into 3.5, 4.0 some day soon.......

Sure, buddy, sure, sure, sure...... And Wawrinka and V Willians serve with an open stance serve (with a fh grip and evrything).

AllCourtHeathen · Mar 23, 2017

Doc Hollidae said:
Shouldn't it be a 180 otherwise you'll just end up back on this thread.....

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
But if you did a 360, you'd be right back in the thread, no?

Seems no one is aware here

mcs1970 · Mar 23, 2017

AllCourtHeathen said:
Seems no one is aware here

For basketball fans:

We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees. - Jason Kidd

Power Player · Mar 23, 2017

oserver said:
Have you ever played in USTA or formal league? Home advantage has to be earned, not granted by oneself.

Yes and there was no earned advantage. Half my matches were at the court of my choosing and half weren't. Quit making excuses. We get it, you don't want to play LeeD.

oserver · Mar 23, 2017

Power Player said:
Yes and there was no earned advantage. Half my matches were at the court of my choosing and half weren't. Quit making excuses. We get it, you don't want to play LeeD.

Neutral location middle way from San Jose to Berkeley. I'm looking forward to it.

Power Player · Mar 23, 2017

oserver said:
Neutral location middle way from San Jose to Berkeley. I'm looking forward to it.

No you aren't. You clearly aren't serious about anything besides trolling and bumping your thread. The tennis community on this site stretches out bigger than you think. You are only doing yourself a disservice by continuing to make these foolish posts.

oserver · Mar 23, 2017

Power Player said:
No you aren't. You clearly aren't serious about anything besides trolling and bumping your thread. The tennis community on this site stretches out bigger than you think. You are only doing yourself a disservice by continuing to make these foolish posts.

Haha, did anyone nominated you to be a spokesperson for my opponent?

Topspin Shot · Mar 23, 2017

oserver said:
What, So you never bounce the wide serves to the fence even once?

Not when I hit my target. And I guarantee you wouldn't be able to return my serves.

mbm0912 · Mar 23, 2017

^^

jm1980 · Mar 23, 2017

oserver said:
My stubbornness will vanish if studies are carried out by reputable institutions to prove all A, B, D serves (open tennis serves) cannot compete with C serves at intermediate level or advanced level. Many naysayers have never seriously tried. A few days ago, a 5.0 player posted here, saying he tried open stance serve and came back from losing first set. You guys can ask him whether it is true or not.

There is a right way to serve, with very minor variations, and tons of wrong ways to serve. The reason your "A, B, D serves" can't compete with proper serves at the intermediate and advanced level is the same as why "E, F, G, H, ... Z, Z1, Z2, etc." serves aren't seen at the intermediate and advanced level. They are the wrong ways to serve, and by the time you get to those levels they have been weeded out.

Unless overwhelming evidence that a huge deviation from the proper serve works, nobody is going to waste time researching or studying it. Overwhelming evidence would be, for example, an elite level player serving like this (and no, Venus and Stan's serves look nothing like yours). Otherwise there's absolutely no reason to study your wrong ways to serve, or any of the other wrong ways to serve seen at the rec level for that matter.

You, instead of applying yourself and trying to learn a proper serve, have convinced yourself that you actually have some revolutionary idea. No. There are a ton of other rec players with crappy serves just like yours...

jm1980 · Mar 23, 2017

Before you try to say you tried the right way; no you haven't. You have not demonstrated the ability to hit a proper serve yet. Your so-called "continental grip" serve with either platform of pinpoint stance is a rec waiter's tray serve.

This ain't no proper serve:

oserver · Mar 23, 2017

jm1980 said:
Before you try to say you tried the right way; no you haven't. You have not demonstrated the ability to hit a proper serve yet. Your so-called "continental grip" serve with either platform of pinpoint stance is a rec waiter's tray serve.

This ain't no proper serve:

No where near a decent 4.5 serves but pretty good for a 4.0 level player. If you like to spin it down to 3.0 or 3.5 level, just say it, ok?

oserver · Mar 23, 2017

Topspin Shot said:
Not when I hit my target. And I guarantee you wouldn't be able to return my serves.

Are you a USTA 5.5 player? What is your rating?

jm1980 · Mar 23, 2017

oserver said:
No where near a decent 4.5 serves but pretty good for a 4.0 level player. If you like to spin it down to 3.0 or 3.5 level, just say it, ok?

That's beside the point. I'm saying you do not have a proper motion; it doesn't matter if it's effective at 3.5 or 4.0

Topspin Shot · Mar 23, 2017

oserver said:
Are you a USTA 5.5 player? What is your rating?

I don't have a USTA rating because I still play college and haven't signed up for a league yet. Nevertheless, you wouldn't be able to return my serves.

oserver · Mar 23, 2017

Topspin Shot said:
I don't have a USTA rating because I still play college and haven't signed up for a league yet. Nevertheless, you wouldn't be able to return my serves.

I see. Division I, II, III or not in the varsity team?

oserver · Mar 23, 2017

jm1980 said:
That's beside the point. I'm saying you do not have a proper motion; it doesn't matter if it's effective at 3.5 or 4.0

If you are a 4.5 or even a 5.0 player, will you have a proper motion compare to Roger or Stan?

Another point - what is "a proper motion" for open stance and (or) open grip serve. We all know the beginner version that is not proper, but do we know the advanced "proper motion"? Since no high level players have ever used a true open tennis serves (option A, B and D), the proper motion is still waiting to be developed at top level (VW and Stan both opened somewhat, but still a little short to be qualified as open tennis serves, similar to the counter part in open ground strokes).

In short, you don't even know what is the proper motion in open tennis serve context. I know a lot more, since I've been practicing for almost three years now.

pabletion · Mar 24, 2017

oserver said:
If you are a 4.5 or even a 5.0 player, will you have a proper motion compare to Roger or Stan?

Another point - what is "a proper motion" for open stance and (or) open grip serve. We all know the beginner version that is not proper, but do we know the advanced "proper motion"? Since no high level players have ever used a true open tennis serves (option A, B and D), the proper motion is still waiting to be developed at top level (VW and Stan both opened somewhat, but still a little short to be qualified as open tennis serves, similar to the counter part in open ground strokes).

In short, you don't even know what is the proper motion in open tennis serve context. I know a lot more, since I've been practicing for almost three years now.

What level is this serve???? Like I told you a couple of times already: your OVERALL level of play DOESN'T MATTER regarding wether your serve is good or not. Heck, this guy won a SET at a PROFESIONAL ATP TOURNAMENT serving underhand (the ONLY relevant thing to notice here is that the opponent, Polansky, was caught off guard completely, nerves got to him and he just ran out of ideas when he started missing several "easy" returns and got tighter and tighter...., NOT that this way of serving is any good nor that it should be taught, or worse, described as an "effective 7.0 level serve").

So you might (or might not) be a 4.0 RATED player (you get the rating due to results, IN SPITE OF YOUR SERVE), it doesnt mean that your serve is a 4.0 level serve (again, youre rated 4.0 EVEN THOUGH you have a terrible serve).

The whacky, somewhat amusing fact is that, with a better serve, you surely would have a HIGHER rating than you do, your serve is a handicapp that can be easily exploited. I'd much rather have PLACEMENT than PACE. When I dont have to move (hitting a return on y forehand or backhand with just a half step), I have NO TROUBLE returning a flat 100 mph + serve, I can even be quite aggresive with them if there is no good placement to the courners or body.

We see pros making aces with 80+ mph serves out wide, taking pace off but sharping angles. You're trying to impress us with your flat what, 60mph serves with NO placement whatsoever?

You got it all wrong, you dont understand tennis it seems...

oserver · Mar 24, 2017

pabletion said:
Like I told you a couple of times already: your OVERALL level of play DOESN'T MATTER regarding wether your serve is good or not.

You need to give everybody a break! If serve doesn't matter, then what matters? Remember that serve is the most important stroke in tennis, not only for its fastest pace that can be generated, but also for its status as the first stroke to be made for every point. An ace can make every other stroke irrelevant for that point. Saying this doesn't mean that big servers always win. As serves go faster and faster, non big serve's return of serve gets better and better to counter that. Big servers tend to be taller and their mobility suffer.

You just use a very rare circumstance to make a generalized statement. Who made underhand serve in grand slam competitions? The only on I remember is Michael Chang during French Open against Lendl, using intimidation (mental not technical) tactic.

pabletion · Mar 24, 2017

oserver said:
You need to give everybody a break! If serve doesn't matter, then what matters? Remember that serve is the most important stroke in tennis, not only for its fastest pace that can be generated, but also for its status as the first stroke to be made for every point. An ace can make every other stroke irrelevant for that point. Saying this doesn't mean that big servers always win. As serves go faster and faster, non big serve's return of serve gets better and better to counter that. Big servers tend to be taller and their mobility suffer.

You just use a very rare circumstance to make a generalized statement. Who made underhand serve in grand slam competitions? The only on I remember is Michael Chang during French Open against Lendl, using intimidation (mental not technical) tactic.

Ha! I need to give everyone a BREAK????? ME??? First off, you might have reading comprehension issues. Never said serve doesnt matter, it DOES matter and it IS a BIG STROKE that can make you or break you as a player. It is SO IMPORTANT, that your own BAD serve is holding you back, and will hold others back from advancing further up and becoming better players and competitors.

You might be a 4.0 player IN SPITE of your terrible serve. You would be a higher level player, GUARANTEED, with a sound, technical serve, even if it had less pace (but more spin, and placement, specially consistency, which Im sure you dont have).

Precisely my point, regarding that Im using a rare circumstance. YOUR SERVE is a rare circumstance, it seems to "work" for you, I mean, you can play at a decent (allegedly) level (say 4.0) IN SPITE OF IT, that doesnt mean you should teach it nor write papers about it and wave your USPTA certification around so it validates a terrible serve. You go from amusing to completely impossible to stand in just a second, because its clear that you are SERIOUS about this thread. It is very pathetic, and although Im enjoying participating in this irrelevant discussion, it is wrong that you try and teach this style of serve (even though any person with half a brain would see this doesnt work).

Topspin Shot · Mar 24, 2017

oserver said:
I see. Division I, II, III or not in the varsity team?

Division III. Which doesn't say much about me but says a lot about you.

Attila_the_gorilla · Mar 24, 2017

pabletion said:
You might be a 4.0 player IN SPITE of your terrible serve. You would be a higher level player, GUARANTEED, with a sound, technical serve, even if it had less pace (but more spin, and placement, specially consistency, which Im sure you dont have).

Just to clarify, his serve has no speed potential. A proper closed stance serve like every single pro player hits them has much greater speed potential.

mcs1970 · Mar 24, 2017

jm1980 said:
Before you try to say you tried the right way; no you haven't. You have not demonstrated the ability to hit a proper serve yet. Your so-called "continental grip" serve with either platform of pinpoint stance is a rec waiter's tray serve.

This ain't no proper serve:

Great find. This reminds me of TV infomercials, where they deliberately exaggerate the conventional thing they are trying to disparage by either stating wrong facts or showing some exaggerated extreme case of the difficulty of using that and then moving on to their snake oil peddling of their wares where they only talk about the good part of it.

Or maybe oserver never really learned how to serve correctly in the first place which is why he thinks this is such a new revelation. oserver is the Benjamin Button of Tennis. Started off trying a regular pro serve, didn't have the mechanics or knowledge of it, and then graduated to a beginner forehand grip, pancake serve.

jm1980 · Mar 24, 2017

mcs1970 said:
Great find. This reminds me of TV infomercials, where they deliberately exaggerate the conventional thing they are trying to disparage by either stating wrong facts or showing some exaggerated extreme case of the difficulty of using that and then moving on to their snake oil peddling of their wares where they only talk about the good part of it.

Or maybe oserver never really learned how to serve correctly in the first place which is why he thinks this is such a new revelation. oserver is the Benjamin Button of Tennis. Started off trying a regular pro serve, didn't have the mechanics or knowledge of it, and then graduated to a beginner forehand grip, pancake serve.

oserver trying a conventional serve:

oserver · Mar 24, 2017

Topspin Shot said:
Division III. Which doesn't say much about me but says a lot about you.

What is your single rank in your Division III team?

Topspin Shot · Mar 24, 2017

oserver said:
What is your single rank in your Division III team?

I play 2. We aren't nationally ranked, but we made nationals the past two years.

oserver · Mar 26, 2017

Topspin Shot said:
I play 2. We aren't nationally ranked, but we made nationals the past two years.

Good for you to play in a top spot. I played a 5.0 guy in USTA 2015 4.5+ league who used be the #1 single of Southern Illinois Men’s Tennis team in middle 80's. The first set was a bagel, but I got two service game in second set. I guess he is more than twice of your age now. Maybe you can self rate yourself as a 5.5 player in USTA.

oserver · Mar 26, 2017

I guess you guys are a little bored without some spin. Here is a video I recorded yesterday that has some spinning tennis serves (360 degree tennis serves). Have fun

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=V6R-Xp8meuM

jm1980 · Mar 26, 2017

oserver said:
I guess you guys are a little bored without some spin. Here is a video I recorded yesterday that has some spinning tennis serves (360 degree tennis serves). Have fun

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=V6R-Xp8meuM

Here:

Not enough spinning, 2/10

We want more spinning groundstrokes, and spinning returns, spinning volleys, spinning overheads...

oserver · Mar 26, 2017

jm1980 said:
Here:
Not enough spinning, 2/10

We want more spinning groundstrokes, and spinning returns, spinning volleys, spinning overheads...

All above are easier than spinning serves except spinning overheads, since you have much more time to recover for the next shot.

Just want to show that even in single situation, there is enough time to turn around in a 360 degree spinning serve. In double situation, the server has a much smaller court to cover the return, so it will be even safer time wise. One get better pace and spin plus some benefit of a surprise to the opponent.

I have seen a nice spinning volley made by a European lady in Australia Open but cannot find it on YouTube. Anyone saw it?

S&V-not_dead_yet · Mar 26, 2017

You haven't shown that you get better pace or spin by spinning 360. Yes, it will be a surprise...for one or two serves.

Far outweighing this is the fact that you're now deliberately placing yourself at a disadvantage, like running the 100m with a 50lb weight attached. Could you still win the race? Sure. But if so, you'd be winning it in spite of the novelty, not because of it. Two drawbacks I see:

- throwing off your balance
- losing track of where the ball is and having to squander precious time to reacquire it

ojo rojo · Mar 26, 2017

oserver · Mar 26, 2017

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
You haven't shown that you get better pace or spin by spinning 360. Yes, it will be a surprise...for one or two serves.

Far outweighing this is the fact that you're now deliberately placing yourself at a disadvantage, like running the 100m with a 50lb weight attached. Could you still win the race? Sure. But if so, you'd be winning it in spite of the novelty, not because of it. Two drawbacks I see:

- throwing off your balance
- losing track of where the ball is and having to squander precious time to reacquire it

You just throw in arguments without any homework. Here is my homework to use available tool to get the timing of the serves -

I used a more precise method to split the above events in the video stream. The video editing tool can tell the times in fraction of second. the results of three serves (one spinning and two non-spinning) are -

spinning serve: 0.53 second, first serve.
non-spinning serve: 0.6 second second serve, 0.7 second third serve.

oserver · Mar 26, 2017

ojo rojo said:

Haha, the skirt is too long. It will slowdown my spinning serve. A mini-skirt may do but it looks too girly, unfortunately.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Mar 26, 2017

oserver said:
You just throw in arguments without any homework. Here is my homework to use available tool to get the timing of the serves -

spinning serve: 0.53 second, first serve.
non-spinning serve: 0.6 second second serve, 0.7 second third serve.

A radar gun might be better; at least, that's the metric most would use.

There is possibly subject bias: you might be [un]consciously trying harder on the spin variant.

Also, you are correct about my lack of homework. I did not try a spin serve but the 2 drawbacks I mentioned are the result of [very] brief thought experiments based on common sense and my understanding of my own physiology. I wouldn't try the spin move after a serve any more than I would try to win a race by donning a 50lb weight. I don't need to do it to know what the outcome would be [disadvantageous].

jm1980 · Mar 26, 2017

oserver said:
You just throw in arguments without any homework. Here is my homework to use available tool to get the timing of the serves -

I used a more precise method to split the above events in the video stream. The video editing tool can tell the times in fraction of second. the results of three serves (one spinning and two non-spinning) are -

spinning serve: 0.53 second, first serve.
non-spinning serve: 0.6 second second serve, 0.7 second third serve.

He's not even talking about recovery time

Unless you have eyes on the back of your head, how are you seeing where your opponent is hitting the ball?

oserver · Mar 26, 2017

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
A radar gun might be better; at least, that's the metric most would use.

There is possibly subject bias: you might be [un]consciously trying harder on the spin variant.

Also, you are correct about my lack of homework. I did not try a spin serve but the 2 drawbacks I mentioned are the result of [very] brief thought experiments based on common sense and my understanding of my own physiology. I wouldn't try the spin move after a serve any more than I would try to win a race by donning a 50lb weight. I don't need to do it to know what the outcome would be [disadvantageous].

If an old guy like me doesn't feel much about these "2 drawbacks", others may not feel them at all.

Anyway, my point is not to promoting the spin move. The spin move came naturally as the results of open stance serve. Once you open the stance, the torque will lead you to rotate on the body axis. If you let it go, the spinning serve is done. No magic. In tennis, we are used to hold back our followthrough in certain extend, and do a reverse swing back. That reverse swing back may not be energy efficient, nor friendly to our body joints.

oserver · Mar 26, 2017

jm1980 said:
He's not even talking about recovery time

Unless you have eyes on the back of your head, how are you seeing where your opponent is hitting the ball?

I cannot see the ball bounce on the ground, but I do see the hitting, or at least part of the followthrough by opponent.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Mar 26, 2017

oserver said:
If an old guy like me doesn't feel much about these "2 drawbacks", others may not feel them at all.

OK. To each his own. Personally, I would shun intentionally introducing the imbalance and loss of ball/trajectory knowledge that the spin move does.

That reverse swing back may not be energy efficient, nor friendly to our body joints.

Tennis is not friendly to our body joints. However, if you have found something that works for you, more power to you.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Mar 26, 2017

oserver said:
I cannot see the ball bounce on the ground, but I do see the hitting, or at least part of the followthrough by opponent.

You're still losing information and have to spend time reacquiring that information that everyone else gets by simply continuing to watch the ball.

My comparison is this: when I go to a drill session, oftentimes the area in front of the SL has a lot of balls lying around. When I come to the net, I have enough dexterity that I can brush a few of them off court on my way up to the net. If I win the point, is it because I took the time to clear the balls? Of course not. I won in spite of that. Would I deliberately do something like that during a match? No.

For the same reason, I wouldn't spin 360 after my serve: the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. YMMV [and in your case, it definitely does vary].

Deleted member 23235 · Mar 26, 2017

oserver said:
I guess you guys are a little bored without some spin. Here is a video I recorded yesterday that has some spinning tennis serves (360 degree tennis serves). Have fun

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=V6R-Xp8meuM

thank you @oserver i can start my week with a smile.
i would like to see more fh and bh 360 spins though, if that's not too much to ask.
does the 360 apply to volleys too?

S&V-not_dead_yet · Mar 26, 2017

nytennisaddict said:
thank you
does the 360 apply to volleys too?

I actually do a 360 when I volley sometimes: when I have to lunge laterally and away from the net to volley, I'm already turned at more than a 90 degree angle to the net: my momentum is such that it's easier to continue moving in the same direction and I have a shorter angular distance to rotate vs stopping my momentum and keeping the net in front of me.

Yes, I suffer the same drawbacks as I pointed out for the serve but in this case, the advantages outweigh them.

The difference between my choice and @oserver's is that mine is in response to a specific set of circumstances [that maybe occur once per set, if that]. it's more of a desperation move [the lesser of 2 evils].

Attila_the_gorilla · Mar 27, 2017

Oserver makes an important admission, which is that his spinning serve is simply an exaggerated follow-through of his normal serve. In other words, he's never had anywahere near proper torso coil in the serve, he's always been very front-on, and the only way to add any kind of rotation to that kind of serve is by over-rotating and hitting a reverse serve with a semi-western grip. Plenty of beginner players do this kind of stuff, just without the full spin.
Players who use some decent upper body coil will not over-rotate, and will not use a semi western grip.

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