Wrist snap on overheads and pronation on serves?
- Thread starter zill
- Start date
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Video is too slow for analysis, readers can interpret as they like.
zill
Legend
Go to 0:15.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Go to 28 and look at the elbow shadows/lighting. That looks like ISR prior to impact. Sometimes I imagine how the elbow would bend to help interpret.
But always better to use high speed video and don't analyze practice secessions, especially the beginning of practice secessions. They might be warming up and not using their full game strokes.
But always better to use high speed video and don't analyze practice secessions, especially the beginning of practice secessions. They might be warming up and not using their full game strokes.
WildVolley
Legend
I can definitely see pronation (more accurately internal shoulder rotation) on those overheads, though it is not as pronounced as on his serve.
Learning to internally rotate on your overhead will open up angles on the overhead that are difficult to hit if you a just frying-pan slapping at overheads.
Learning to internally rotate on your overhead will open up angles on the overhead that are difficult to hit if you a just frying-pan slapping at overheads.
Pete Player
Hall of Fame
Fact: Wrist does not pronate. Forearm may do so.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
dominikk1985
Legend
do you mean the one he hit with his left Hand for fun? you definitely want to use arm Rotation for an OH but sometimes when a ball is a Little behind you you Need to snap the wrist a Little to get it down.
Pete Player
Hall of Fame
Maybe everybody coming to read this thread should read this to lay the gound for next level...
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/evidencewristsnap.html
I don’t fully agree with Revolutionary Tennis on the key points, but there is still something to start from.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/evidencewristsnap.html
I don’t fully agree with Revolutionary Tennis on the key points, but there is still something to start from.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
While most joint motions involve one joint, pronation involves motion at two joints, one located at the elbow and the other located at the wrist.
But 'pronate' ?? Tennis use of the term 'pronate' probably has no definition in the academic sense. No one attempts to define it or provide links.
The incorrect usage proudly exists because when the elbow is near straight both pronation and ISR cause the same exact visible effect on the wrist. When it was first noticed - but before it was understood - the wrist motion was thought to be pronation probably because hardly any one knew what ISR was. But thanks to education.......
ISR - internal shoulder rotation. Also known as medial shoulder rotation in many countries.
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Pete Player
Hall of Fame
Indeed, sir. But pronation itself does not result wrist to flex nor deviate ulnary.
Pronation is, in general terms, the inward rotation of the forearm, which does not involve either the elbow nor wrist.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
SinjinCooper
Hall of Fame
Serves and overheads are the same motion. It's just a matter of degree and footwork.
SinjinCooper
Hall of Fame
That one was behind him. An error from the feeder. It wasn't an overhead so much as an emergency, "Here, let me pop that back to you so we can try hitting overheads again."
It had as much to do with the question of how pros hit overheads as the ball at 0:02 had to do with the question of how pros handle half volleys.
Pete Player
Hall of Fame
Wrist snap is truly a chimera and just a feeling, not actual wrist action.
If you try to snap your wrist, hello injury!
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
If you try to snap your wrist, hello injury!
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Did someone make some comments about wrist flexion? Or ulna deviation? Please quote.
Here is a video shows pronation and the required motions at the elbow and at the wrist. The name of the joint is the Radioulnar Joint. The unusual Radioular Joint has two separated articulations, one at the elbow (proximal) and another at the wrist (distal). This video shows the radial side of the joint rotating at the elbow. The wrist articulation does not show so clearly. See pictures below.
Oh, Radioulnar Joint has a proximal and distal part the one at the elbow and the other at the wrist.
In the Radioulnar Joint, the Radius articulates at the elbow and is fixed at the wrist and the Ulna articulates at the wrist and is fixed at the elbow.
More detail on the Radioulnar Joint.
https://musculoskeletalkey.com/measurement-of-range-of-motion-of-the-elbow-and-forearm/
Maybe the lower leg has a similar joint but are there any other body joints with separated articulations at either end of the bone?
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
The wrist, itself, does not not initiate the pronation. It is not a wrist articulation at all. Pronation is a rotation of the forearm. Ultimately it is the hand and the racquet face that is turned/rotated. The hand can be turned by both the forearm and the shoulder.
No, I do not believe that he merely snaps his wrist to hit smashes. Not really a good way to generate RHS. But a "good" way to do damage to your wrist (and, maybe, your forearm).
To put is another way, the wrist (and the hand) is pronated by the forearm. But the wrist, itself is not responsible for the pronation action
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Pete Player
Hall of Fame
@Chas Tennis, yes I wrote, that pronation does not have anything to do about wrist nor elbow. What i ment ofcourse was the independent movements in the palmar and radial direction. And your video of the skele hand proves that perfectly.
Snapping the wrist, which is really often described as intentional wrist flexion, is not active but passive reflection of the bigger arm parts moving in desired manner.
Both moves - palmar flexion and ulnar deviation - in the wrist are results of the elbow straightening and combined axial rotations of internal shoulder turn and pronation of the forearm. You can restrict the wrist from flexing and deviating by active muscles in your forearms, but the flapping seen in the end are reflections of the arm movement. They happen only, if you’ll let them happen.
For not over flexion either way, the pronation directs the arm speed into safe direction for the wrist to flex and slow down the racket in a way ligaments will tolerate it.
Throwing motionwise Milos Raonic and Andy Roddick would be better role models than Federer.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
Snapping the wrist, which is really often described as intentional wrist flexion, is not active but passive reflection of the bigger arm parts moving in desired manner.
Both moves - palmar flexion and ulnar deviation - in the wrist are results of the elbow straightening and combined axial rotations of internal shoulder turn and pronation of the forearm. You can restrict the wrist from flexing and deviating by active muscles in your forearms, but the flapping seen in the end are reflections of the arm movement. They happen only, if you’ll let them happen.
For not over flexion either way, the pronation directs the arm speed into safe direction for the wrist to flex and slow down the racket in a way ligaments will tolerate it.
Throwing motionwise Milos Raonic and Andy Roddick would be better role models than Federer.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I think that I just learned that pronation involves the movement of the radius on the ulna, the Radioulnar Joint. The articulations occur at both ends of the radius and ulna bones. These articulations are also very close to the conversational 'elbow' and 'wrist' and may or may not be considered part of the elbow joint or wrist joint in anatomy. The proper anatomical names for these joint structures should be used to avoid future issues.
Proximal Radioulnar Joint near elbow. Allows Radial Head to rotate for pronation.
See
https://musculoskeletalkey.com/measurement-of-range-of-motion-of-the-elbow-and-forearm/
Proximal Radioulnar Joint near elbow. Allows Radial Head to rotate for pronation.
See
https://musculoskeletalkey.com/measurement-of-range-of-motion-of-the-elbow-and-forearm/
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dominikk1985
Legend
I think he was one of the first guys to talk about ISR at least among non scientists.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Badminton biomechanics analysts/researchers were talking about forearm pronation in the late 60s and medial/internal rotation of the shoulder in the 70s/80s. Largely ignored by the badminton community for many years. Was not until the 00s that I heard tennis experts (Elliot, Gordon and others) talk about shoulder rotations (ESR & ISR). Chas Stumpfel (Chas_Tennis) has taken up the cause more recently.
Learned quite a bit from the pages of the late Mark Papas. Presented a number of things in the 00s that other non-scientists had not been discussing. However, I completely disagree with his conclusion regarding "wrist snap".
Pete Player
Hall of Fame
That is also, what I’ve learned. Some knowledge, yet not proven scientifically has beer out there and in different sports the same development has been implied during recent years, while the high-speed, high-definition camcoders and pattern recognition algorythms have evolved and become more and more affordable to even regular people.
The odd has been, that the best have nearly in every single sport done intuitively something unorthodox to what’s been published. The culprit to my understanding is, that those succesfull never really knew, what they were doing, but had an internal understanding of what they felt doing it.
Explaining a feel is allways inaccurate and to some extent faulty, subjective interpretation of what’s going on. Also in video analyzing there is the trouble of not actually being able to study the muscle activity during a shot, yet the capture is very sharp and accurate. Some really evident movements may be results, yet explained being active and wrong interpretion of muscle activity will turn into injuries and ineficency in the mechanics.
Yet for instance in volley ball the impact of a smash is palm forward the hand will twist sideways to slow down after contact, cause the lash of wrist into flexion would strain the ligaments exessively. In tennis even more so, cause the racket is relatively heavy and have long lever compared to your fingers.
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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
atp2015
Hall of Fame
What I see is that the snapping of the wrist is well after the contact. Before the contact I see just pronation using the arm. The overhead is powered by his his legs (he is even getting off the ground), core and shoulder - the arm is going for a free ride and providing the pronation. I don't know why he snaps his wrist after the contact - but have a theory. it is probably because he is releasing the wrist from the locked position and it uncoils and appears like a deliberate snapping perhaps.
The locked wrist until contact is great for all shots and I think that's what is good for shot quality and injury prevention.
