Former Pros Playing Amateur Tourneys

S

Shankadelic

Rookie
What do you all think about former pros playing open level, age based, amateur tournaments?

See some former pros playing dubs in the 45s and 50s National type tourneys. Can see both sides but I think it would be pretty cool to have the chance to play a former pro in a competitive match, even it is 25+ years past their prime.
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
Many who play in the Senior Age Groups are teaching pros--are you talking about ex-ATP 100 touring pros like seen on TV? That's Jim Currier's Out-Back Tour, or whoever is the title sponsor now, Mac, Chang, Blake, Roddick, Currier, Pete, etc. There would have to be appearance and prize money to have them turn out. There may be some who compete for the love of the game and the competition--the touring pros are likely playing golf now after years of grinding out a living traveling, or "name player" tennis directors at five star resorts. There are some in the Super Senior Age Groups still competing from the amateur era--Tom Brown, Whitney Reed, Gardner Molloy used to--I'm sure there are some others still out there, Hugh Stewart used to play, he may still be around.

You can also pay some big bucks and play them in charity-celebrity Pro-Ams, for some hit and giggle against Mac, Bryans, Cash, Kournikova, Andre & Steffi, etc.--it's kinda' like a long autograph session--not quite head-to-head competition--get the videos to show friends.
 
S

Shankadelic

Rookie
tennis tom said:
Many who play in the Senior Age Groups are teaching pros--are you talking about ex-ATP 100 touring pros like seen on TV?
Click to expand...
I am talking about ex-ATP touring pros, not teaching pros, playing USTA Sanctioned National tournaments. E. Ferreira and Leach are a few I saw. I am sure there is more.
 
OnTheLine

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
When Steffi G shows up in one of our local tournaments, or she and her hubby pair up for Mixed .... yeah, I don't think that is going to happen.

Another thread mentioned that Gigi Fernandez plays local league
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
in Europe ex-top pro players play for their clubs in leagues, but I'm pretty sure it's different then the league format in the USA--and I'm pretty sure there's some compensation, not just a trophy and bragging rights at the club bar.
 
M

Max G.

Legend
Seems like it would be fun for both the former pros and their opponents. Presumably they're finding tournaments/leagues appropriate to their current level, which can be a lot lower than their pro level.
 
Nacho

Nacho

Hall of Fame
At the National tournaments there are quite a few that play and had some ATP points in their younger years. Pretty much everyone at the National Tourneys is an ex D-1 college player if not additionally on the tour at some point. The tournaments are open to everyone so you get a few that are 4.0/4.5 and are trying their luck at the tournament, most players are ex-high level players. Some of the players I have seen not mentioned are Wade Mcguire, Jim Thomas, Garry Nadebaum, Eoin Collins, Mikeal Pernfors, and David Mcnamara...The National Hardcourts probably draws the biggest contingent of ex-pros.

Rarely do you see ex-top 100 pro players in the tournaments. I do think prior to the open era it was more common for former top pro players to play in the age groups. Since then it has waned significantly probably because there is more money and less reason to grind it out in these tournaments unless you just love it. And, with the attempted creation of a Sr. tour it has provided a reason for these players to stick around and do exhibitions.

For what its worth, there are a number of players at the National tournament level who are really good, fun to watch, and could probably match up well with their equivalent age group ex-pros. They work hard to stay in shape, and love to play the tournaments. I think if there were a way to have a Sr. Tour that included a qualifying and had ex-pros in it, it would be fun for people to watch. But clearly no one wants to invest in this....
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
Nacho said:
For what its worth, there are a number of players at the National tournament level who are really good, fun to watch, and could probably match up well with their equivalent age group ex-pros. They work hard to stay in shape, and love to play the tournaments. I think if there were a way to have a Sr. Tour that included a qualifying and had ex-pros in it, it would be fun for people to watch. But clearly no one wants to invest in this....
Click to expand...
Good post! It would be cool if a corporate angel would come forth and sponsor a Senior/Master's Pro Tour with enough money in for them to make a living off it. It would be fun to match-up "amateurs" against past ATP pros like Connors, Borg, Lendl, Sampras, etc. If there was enough money in it some of these past big-names could be drawn off the golf course to get back into shape and back onto the tennis courts where they belong. With interest in the NFL waning due to the kneelers, maybe some of that sponsorship money could go to such a "Master's" tour--for what it costs to be a corporate sponsor for an NFL stadium deal the entire Senior/Master's tour could be easily bank-rolled.
 
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Nacho

Nacho

Hall of Fame
tennis tom said:
Good post! It would be cool if a corporate angel would come forth and sponsor a Senior/Mater's Pro Tour with enough money in for them to make a living off it. It would be fun to match-up "amateurs" against past ATP pros like Connors, Borg, Lendl, Sampras, etc. If there was enough money in it some of these past big-names could be drawn off the golf course to get back into shape and back onto the tennis courts where they belong. With interest in the NFL waning due to the kneelers, maybe some of that sponsorship money could go to such a "Master's" tour--for what it costs to be a corporate sponsor for an NFL stadium deal the entire Senior/Master's tour could be easily bank-rolled.
Click to expand...

Thanks @tennis tom

The problem is the push and pull between the ITF and USTA, along with the way I believe the ATP has retirement commitments set up for former players. I believe (but I am not positive) that it is difficult for former top level players to participate in events not sponsored which is why you see a cut off between the top players participating and the lower level former pros. Once you meet a certain ranking/threshold, you qualify for some retirement benefits. Again not really sure how it all works, but it throws a wrench in what former levels can participate.

I should also mention that there are a lot more ex-proplayers in Europe playing in ITF events. And, that the ITF has this better organized for Sr. Players then the USTA does. USTA is geared towards recreational tennis, thats their cash cow so putting money into Sr. High level tennis isn't worthwhile. It would be simple: slim up the age divisions, make a big deal out of 4-6 National tournaments with some decent prize money, have a system of paying for some top level guys to play in it, and then hold a qualifier. And, if there is a little advertisement or promotion on tennis channel I bet people would watch. Its good tennis, and I think people would show up if they knew their local pro was playing, or someone who was "one of them". Doesn't have to be a money maker at first, and I bet could pay for itself. There are also some traditional clubs in the US that would love to host these kind of events and would relish the promotion.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Nacho said:
At the National tournaments there are quite a few that play and had some ATP points in their younger years. Pretty much everyone at the National Tourneys is an ex D-1 college player if not additionally on the tour at some point. The tournaments are open to everyone so you get a few that are 4.0/4.5 and are trying their luck at the tournament, most players are ex-high level players. Some of the players I have seen not mentioned are Wade Mcguire, Jim Thomas, Garry Nadebaum, Eoin Collins, Mikeal Pernfors, and David Mcnamara...The National Hardcourts probably draws the biggest contingent of ex-pros.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of ex-ATP Tour players, not players who got a couple points on the ITF circuits (while Pernfors would certainly qualify as ATP, I've never seen his name in a USTA draw). You are correct that there are tons of players in these age group tournaments who got a couple points in futures/satellite level tournaments back in the day but never made it to the big tour.
 
C

Chadillac

Guest
Shankadelic said:
What do you all think about former pros playing open level, age based, amateur tournaments?

See some former pros playing dubs in the 45s and 50s National type tourneys. Can see both sides but I think it would be pretty cool to have the chance to play a former pro in a competitive match, even it is 25+ years past their prime.
Click to expand...

A friend of mine (person i say hello every few years) played 9.0 mixed doubles with his wife. She was a 2.5 and he was off tour for years. She wanted to play with him in the league, lol. They always won though, she just had to hit the ball in. He had a win over becker in doubles
 
Nacho

Nacho

Hall of Fame
J_R_B said:
Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of ex-ATP Tour players, not players who got a couple points on the ITF circuits (while Pernfors would certainly qualify as ATP, I've never seen his name in a USTA draw). You are correct that there are tons of players in these age group tournaments who got a couple points in futures/satellite level tournaments back in the day but never made it to the big tour.
Click to expand...

All those guys I named had a significant amount of points on the tour and played in the Grand Slams, so not a casual point or two. Pernfors played in the Atlanta Invitational, a Cat-II tournament in Atlanta, a few years back. Many guys I see just playing doubles with someone who talks them into it. And yes, the rest of the field in these tournaments is a mixed bag of guys who may have played and ITF or two, guys who played in college, and occasional club player. If you look up most guys who are in the quarters-on in these tournaments, it is mostly made up of ex ITF players.

Again, I think there are some limitations as to what these guys can play in depending on how high they got ranked and in what time period, but I could be wrong. Also, the players in the 35-50 age group now are mostly foreign, so may be playing in the ITF tournaments abroad. They only have 1 or 2 here in the US every year. May also be why you don't see too many top American players around. The big drop off in top Americans started around 1990. There were also several tours going on during the 70's, 80's and early 90's (such as the Grand Prix tour, WCT, and I think there was even a Kneissl tour) which were alternate ways to compete for professionals so they ay not have ATP points but competed at some level.
 
navigator

navigator

Hall of Fame
J_R_B said:
Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of ex-ATP Tour players, not players who got a couple points on the ITF circuits (while Pernfors would certainly qualify as ATP, I've never seen his name in a USTA draw). You are correct that there are tons of players in these age group tournaments who got a couple points in futures/satellite level tournaments back in the day but never made it to the big tour.
Click to expand...

With only a couple of (ITF) exceptions Pernfors only plays the World Championships which is an ITF event. And I think the main reason he plays is because he likes playing in the team competition with his fellow Swedes the week prior. Between the team and individual competitions he might have two or three remotely challenging matches (out of a dozen), so playing a USTA event... what's the point? There are guys like Danny Goldie (got to 30 in the ATP rankings) that will show up at a USTA national tournament, and Karsten Braasch (got to 38) and a small handful of others that cracked the top-100 that will show up at the occasional ITF event, but for most of the top guys... what's the point? They just can't be bothered. Even in a Grade A tournament they might see one remotely challenging match... it's a waste of time.
 
navigator

navigator

Hall of Fame
Nacho said:
All those guys I named had a significant amount of points on the tour and played in the Grand Slams, so not a casual point or two. Pernfors played in the Atlanta Invitational, a Cat-II tournament in Atlanta, a few years back. Many guys I see just playing doubles with someone who talks them into it. And yes, the rest of the field in these tournaments is a mixed bag of guys who may have played and ITF or two, guys who played in college, and occasional club player. If you look up most guys who are in the quarters-on in these tournaments, it is mostly made up of ex ITF players.

Again, I think there are some limitations as to what these guys can play in depending on how high they got ranked and in what time period, but I could be wrong. Also, the players in the 35-50 age group now are mostly foreign, so may be playing in the ITF tournaments abroad. They only have 1 or 2 here in the US every year. May also be why you don't see too many top American players around. The big drop off in top Americans started around 1990. There were also several tours going on during the 70's, 80's and early 90's (such as the Grand Prix tour, WCT, and I think there was even a Kneissl tour) which were alternate ways to compete for professionals so they ay not have ATP points but competed at some level.
Click to expand...

I don't think there are any limitations but... I also could be wrong. I think the former top guys don't bother because it's just a waste of time. When Danny Goldie returned to tennis after a 15-year hiatus a couple of years back he just played the national tournaments and crushed everybody - it was a joke. It can't be that fun - you might get one challenging match per tournament. But, yeah, there are a fair number of guys who play the ITF events who had sub-300 rankings back in their youths... "dangerous floaters" that show up at the odd tournament here and there and maul everyone.

There are also some guys that were outstanding juniors - world class - that either got injured or didn't have the financing to tackle the pro tour that show up to some of the ITF senior events and wreak havoc - Franck Fevrier being a prime example. The guy lost to Stefan Edberg in three sets in the final of the Junior French Open. He beat Pernfors in the World Championships a while back. There are a lot of really good players out there that never bothered with the tour.
 
atatu

atatu

Legend
Mariano Puerta showed up at a local Cat. 2 tournament here to play mixed doubles with a 4.0 woman and they got hammered. I don't think he was really trying too hard, his partner was very attractive however.
 
Rattler

Rattler

Hall of Fame
atatu said:
Mariano Puerta showed up at a local Cat. 2 tournament here to play mixed doubles with a 4.0 woman and they got hammered. I don't think he was really trying too hard, his partner was very attractive however.
Click to expand...

I remember that...they were dating.
 
monfils is my homeboy

monfils is my homeboy

Semi-Pro
Shankadelic said:
I am talking about ex-ATP touring pros, not teaching pros, playing USTA Sanctioned National tournaments. E. Ferreira and Leach are a few I saw. I am sure there is more.
Click to expand...
I had to play Ellis Ferreira and David Macpherson in the finals of the 5.5 nationals last year and they are damn good!! We beat everyone easily until the final and we got routined. Their volleys are ridiculous.
 
T

TennisCJC

Legend
tennis tom said:
Good post! It would be cool if a corporate angel would come forth and sponsor a Senior/Master's Pro Tour with enough money in for them to make a living off it. It would be fun to match-up "amateurs" against past ATP pros like Connors, Borg, Lendl, Sampras, etc. If there was enough money in it some of these past big-names could be drawn off the golf course to get back into shape and back onto the tennis courts where they belong. With interest in the NFL waning due to the kneelers, maybe some of that sponsorship money could go to such a "Master's" tour--for what it costs to be a corporate sponsor for an NFL stadium deal the entire Senior/Master's tour could be easily bank-rolled.
Click to expand...

Wow

NFL is not waning. Whole thing was blown up by our goof of a president

There will be very little interest in watching old tennis players play. I have attended a senior event - saw Mc, Courier, ... The crowd was small and these were big names. TV rating for Legends is comparable to HGTV Fixer Upper or other nonsense shows and Legends events' ratings are not in the same universe as NFL ratings. you need really big names to play to sell tickets/TV and to be honest I think the last thing the really big names want is to lose to some 5.0 hot shot. That's also the last thing a tournament director or TV promoter wants too. That's why Legends Tour is restricted to big names only.

Only time I attended a senior tennis event that actually drew a strong crowd was back around 1980 when Laver, Rosewall, Drysdale, Hewitt and McMillian all played a senior exhibition. This was the pinnacle of tennis' popularity with Borg, Connors, McEnroe, Evertt making tennis very popular in the USA and it had some of the biggest names ever in the history of the sport.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
tennis tom said:
Click to expand...
The NFL is not permanently waning. If there was a blip this year, it was due to the world's greatest internet troll abusing his position of power to hit back at the league over a 30 year old grudge over the USFL by convincing a bunch of triggered rednecks that they should actually hate football because a couple people kneeled. That's not going to last. These are people who grew up loving football.
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
J_R_B said:
The NFL is not permanently waning. If there was a blip this year, it was due to the world's greatest internet troll abusing his position of power to hit back at the league over a 30 year old grudge over the USFL by convincing a bunch of triggered rednecks that they should actually hate football because a couple people kneeled. That's not going to last. These are people who grew up loving football.
Click to expand...
With the increasingly diverse face of America due to the dreamers, soccer will quickly supersede the NFL--in kali, half the TV stations are in Spanish and soccer fields abound everywhere. When NFL players see their salaries cut in half due to long time fans not renewing their generationally held season tickets, the players will roast Kappernick for being the catalyst for the demise of the NFL. This Super Bowl will prove it with a big drop in viewership and the price for commercials. The Kappernick effect will be felt greatly next season when ticket sales will plummet. The cameras don't show the empty seats.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
tennis tom said:
With the increasingly diverse face of America due to the dreamers, soccer will quickly supersede the NFL--in kali, half the TV stations are in Spanish and soccer fields abound everywhere. When NFL players see their salaries cut in half due to long time fans not renewing their generationally held season tickets, the players will roast Kappernick for being the catalyst for the demise of the NFL. This Super Bowl will prove it with a big drop in viewership and the price for commercials. The Kappernick effect will be felt greatly next season when ticket sales will plummet. The cameras don't show the empty seats.
Click to expand...
Are you triggered?
[X] Triggered
[ ] Not Triggered

Are you a redneck?
[X] Redneck
[ ] Not Redneck
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
J_R_B said:
Are you triggered?
[X] Triggered
[ ] Not Triggered

Are you a redneck?
[X] Redneck
[ ] Not Redneck
Click to expand...
Are you a junior? Why do you hate rednecks? "Redskins" and "rednecks" are considered racially insensitive terms. Do you know how to grow your own food--or only pot?

"Trigger" was Roy Rogers horse's name--

What was Dale Evans horse's name?

What was Roy Roger's sidekick Pat Brady's horse's name?

What was the clown's name on the Howdy Doody show?
 
B

Bluefan75

Professional
TennisCJC said:
Wow

NFL is not waning. Whole thing was blown up by our goof of a president

There will be very little interest in watching old tennis players play. I have attended a senior event - saw Mc, Courier, ... The crowd was small and these were big names. TV rating for Legends is comparable to HGTV Fixer Upper or other nonsense shows and Legends events' ratings are not in the same universe as NFL ratings. you need really big names to play to sell tickets/TV and to be honest I think the last thing the really big names want is to lose to some 5.0 hot shot. That's also the last thing a tournament director or TV promoter wants too. That's why Legends Tour is restricted to big names only.

Only time I attended a senior tennis event that actually drew a strong crowd was back around 1980 when Laver, Rosewall, Drysdale, Hewitt and McMillian all played a senior exhibition. This was the pinnacle of tennis' popularity with Borg, Connors, McEnroe, Evertt making tennis very popular in the USA and it had some of the biggest names ever in the history of the sport.
Click to expand...

Forget the political stuff, the NFL is on the wane because more and more people are waking up to the fact the players, compensated though they may be, are doing untold damage to themselves so the rest can be entertained. There will always be a group that wants that(after all, the Christians vs the Lions was always a big draw), but more and more, you're seeing parents forbidding their kids from playing, and people just asking why? Why should Ryan Shazier have his whole life probably ruined so I can watch a game? Why should I help propogate the existence of a sport that leaves the players in such condition that if they are lucky they will need a cane when they are 50, and not be confined to a wheelchair like Earl Campbell, or be driven to suicide.

The rules changes that have been brought in have really not overcome that in those folks who see it that way, and the group that wants to see it thinks they have "pussified" the game. Either way, the NFL is driving away viewers. It's an easy thing to say the kneeling(it did not help, but it's far from the main cause), but the ratings are way down. Last year it was the election, this year it's the Trump thing, either way the ratings are down. But these "analyses" are coming from the same people who thought there was no possible way Jim Harbaugh would take anything other than an NFL job, and now that he's at Michigan think he will go back every off season. The media who cover the NFL have become as myopic and arrogant as the NFL themselves. They can't fathom a world outside of the NFL.
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
Yes, and hopefully it won't be long before other sports like rugby, aussie rules football, MMA boxing--and maybe dating in the new era, will adopt similar concussion rules, and protective equipment. But, the good news is!--perhaps our sport of tennis will have a revival due to the minimal chances of getting a serious injury from the fuzzy--usually dead balls--players bring, that if they bring any.
 
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J

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Shankadelic said:
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/tournamenthome/tournament.aspx?T=188289
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/tournamenthome/tournament.aspx?T=188370
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/tournamenthome/tournament.aspx?T=189137

I am sure there is more.
Click to expand...

all three links point to age based tournaments. Of course you have former pros participating in those (national level) tournaments for fun. Of course no one expects that those players are, or claim to be, a 4.5 level players.
OnyxZ28 poster stated that there are former pros playing in 4.5 level tournaments. So which is it?
 
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S

Shankadelic

Rookie
jmnk said:
all three links point to age based tournaments. Of course you have former pros participating in those (national level) tournaments for fun. Of course no one expects that those players are, or claim to be, a 4.5 level players.
OnyxZ28 poster stated that there are former pros playing in 4.5 level tournaments. So which is it?
Click to expand...
I haven't seen that, playing in 4.5 tournaments. Would be interested to see that as well.
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
Whenever the club's maintenance employees are on break, they turn the TV to the Spanish language soccer channels--club members watch US sports--seldom watch tennis--not betting on tennis.

NFL and tennis are waning--soccer is on the rise--it's just demographics--the population bomb. But there is a ray of hope, the Indians gave us lacrosse which is rising in the wealthy 'burbs--skateboarding while buzzed, and video games will be the new NFL.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
jmnk said:
all three links point to age based tournaments. Of course you have former pros participating in those (national level) tournaments for fun. Of course no one expects that those players are, or claim to be, a 4.5 level players.
OnyxZ28 poster stated that there are former pros playing in 4.5 level tournaments. So which is it?
Click to expand...
it's been a while, but i know of at least one case where a former ATP player (ranked 500 or something), played in a usta 4.0 league, and took the team to nationals.
obviously he got bumped quickly...
that said, his scenario, and likely many like him, was that he was using the league to network, build business, etc... since he was new to the country (and obviously the area).
at the time 4.0 was the highest level in the area, and had all the "best" players.

obviously i'm not a pro, but when i have visited/moved to other countries/areas... i've played down many times (ie. to the 3.0 level), mainly to meet folks that know other folks... evenutally i found my level (4.5).
often goes like this:
* i win 0,0
* "you need to play with <fill in other good player>"
 
T

tennis tom

Legend
J_R_B said:
The NFL is not permanently waning. If there was a blip this year, it was due to the world's greatest internet troll abusing his position of power to hit back at the league over a 30 year old grudge over the USFL by convincing a bunch of triggered rednecks that they should actually hate football because a couple people kneeled. That's not going to last. These are people who grew up loving football.
Click to expand...
The price of Superbowl tickets are way down! I don't even know who is playing nor care. Used to be an avid fan in the Montana/Walsh years--that was GENIUS! After Seifert took over it was boring! Tennis and motorsports is all I watch now--and that's enough. I would watch the Superbowl just for the spectacle, multi-million dollar designer commercials and the half-time show. Due to the kneeling 1%'ers, I'm boycotting and will be sitting it out in the hot-tub.

The NFL denying the patriotic PSA by the Vets was the last straw. I may tune in to see if there are any kneeling 1%'ers--if there are any--that WILL be the very Last straw in the NFL's coffin for me. I'm going to get an attorney's license from a law school in Granada, while on vacation to champion lawsuits for concussions for soccer players who've done too many headers, rugby players, aussie rules footballers, and women MMA boxers who need pro-bono legal advice for their concussions--who don't wear ANY head protection. Follow the money--have Hollyweird make a gut wrenching movie with a compelling narrative, and settle out of court for big bucks--I'm running headlong into a pole and sue PG&E.
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Shankadelic said:
What do you all think about former pros playing open level, age based, amateur tournaments?

See some former pros playing dubs in the 45s and 50s National type tourneys. Can see both sides but I think it would be pretty cool to have the chance to play a former pro in a competitive match, even it is 25+ years past their prime.
Click to expand...
Don't do it.............it is NO fun. I hit once with a formal pro,, a GREAT pro, now a teaching pro over 80 years old. I felt really bad about playing him in club match. it was just for fun, but still I felt bad.....
 
navigator

navigator

Hall of Fame
Nostradamus said:
Don't do it.............it is NO fun. I hit once with a formal pro,, a GREAT pro, now a teaching pro over 80 years old. I felt really bad about playing him in club match. it was just for fun, but still I felt bad.....
Click to expand...

(1) He's talking about playing former pros now in their 50s and 60s, not in their 80s
(2) He's not talking about club matches, he's talking about tournaments... which you don't play

Speaking of which, still waiting for you to send your name to schmke to verify your 4.5 credentials and join the TT 4.5 team... not sure what the hold up is...
 
T

TennisCJC

Legend
Bluefan75 said:
Forget the political stuff, the NFL is on the wane because more and more people are waking up to the fact the players, compensated though they may be, are doing untold damage to themselves so the rest can be entertained. There will always be a group that wants that(after all, the Christians vs the Lions was always a big draw), but more and more, you're seeing parents forbidding their kids from playing, and people just asking why? Why should Ryan Shazier have his whole life probably ruined so I can watch a game? Why should I help propogate the existence of a sport that leaves the players in such condition that if they are lucky they will need a cane when they are 50, and not be confined to a wheelchair like Earl Campbell, or be driven to suicide.

The rules changes that have been brought in have really not overcome that in those folks who see it that way, and the group that wants to see it thinks they have "pussified" the game. Either way, the NFL is driving away viewers. It's an easy thing to say the kneeling(it did not help, but it's far from the main cause), but the ratings are way down. Last year it was the election, this year it's the Trump thing, either way the ratings are down. But these "analyses" are coming from the same people who thought there was no possible way Jim Harbaugh would take anything other than an NFL job, and now that he's at Michigan think he will go back every off season. The media who cover the NFL have become as myopic and arrogant as the NFL themselves. They can't fathom a world outside of the NFL.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. slightly lower NFL ratings have little to do with kneeling. I think people are beginning to realize football is horribly destructive to the players. I also think soccer is becoming bigger in the US too. And, NFL tickets are EXPENSIVE. By the way, I have 2 NFL season tickets, played youth football and enjoy NFL and college games.
 
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