NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Because you're not funny.
Oh nobody beats you in this category my queen. Lol
Djokovic is...
- Thread starter RF-18
- Start date
Oh nobody beats you in this category my queen. Lol
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
40-15 triumphs that
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
1 match vs 14? yeah no
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
Ducking applies only on these rare occasions when Nadal is the more consistent guy against the field. Not surprised...Nadal only once met Djokovic in a Slam when he was out of form: 2015 RG. Every other time when he was out of form he lost to some lesser player before he reached Djokovic. Nadal on the other hand has a quite a few wins against a lesser Djokovic: 2006 RG, 2007 RG, 2007 Wimbledon, etc., yet you think they should have met 3 more times at RG, twice when he was not in top form, to further inflate an already lopsided distribution in Slam meetings even more?Why is no one else laughing?
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
I like cherries
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
It actually shows that being on top you don't get to meet as much of the new stars (yet) than being #2 or #3...
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Of anybody to call out ducking in Slams, it's the Nadal fans...I have to say, I am a bit surprised.
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
The really amusing thing this is the "Nadal didn't have the benefit of facing older Fed" talk back when Djokovic was facing him in a few Slam finals. Now that Nadal is playing well again in the last three seasons, how is he doing against that gramps?Of anybody to call out ducking in Slams, it's the Nadal fans...I have to say, I am a bit surprised.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Except that Nadal is nowhere near his prime. Djokovic was at his prime when he was facing old Federer in these slam finals. Put Nadal from AO 2009 against 2017 AO Federer, and that would be a straight set beatdown.The really amusing thing this is the "Nadal didn't have the benefit of facing older Fed" talk back when Djokovic was facing him in a few Slam finals. Now that Nadal is playing well again in the last three seasons, how is he doing against that gramps?
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
The really amusing thing this is the "Nadal didn't have the benefit of facing older Fed" talk back when Djokovic was facing him in a few Slam finals. Now that Nadal is playing well again in the last three seasons, how is he doing against that gramps?
Yea I remember this. I guess be careful what you wish for. He's 1-2 against Gramps in Slams and 1-6 overall.
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Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
And Federer is close to his prime these days himself? He just waited for Nadal to decline to turn their rivalry around?
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Federer just aged better, that's it. Nadal lost all his speed. It remains a fact that Nadal during his prime never had the chance to face past his prime Federer.And Federer is close to his prime these days himself?
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah right.
It remains a fact that Nadal is 1-6 against Federer since 2015 while Djokovic hasn't lost to that same Federer in four years now.
NatF
Bionic Poster
I was going to bold the wrong bits but bolding the whole thing seems redundant...
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
That same Federer? Not really. Djokovic never faced Federer in 2017. Or you honestly believe that Federer in IW 2017 and in Cincinnati 2018 is the same Federer?
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
You can cherry pick and try spinning that 1-6 and 5-0 are the same thing due to the 2017 timing all you want. Doesn't change the fact that Djokovic has retained his momentum against Federer after exiting his prime while Nadal completely lost his.That same Federer? Not really. Djokovic never faced Federer in 2017. Or you honestly believe that Federer in IW 2017 and in Cincinnati 2018 is the same Federer?
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic right now is much closer to his prime than Nadal is. And even he has problems with current Federer. In the last 2 matches he won due to Federer choking in the end.
maratha_warrior
Hall of Fame
Rafa has decided to MAN-UP and will meet Djoker 5 more times at Australian Open , so dat Meetings at RG and AO will be equal for both i.e 7 .
( Djoker has faced Rafa at RG 7 freaking times )RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
This is a legitimate pattern though, they played a LOT when Nadal was down from mid 14-16, and when he returned from injury at the end of 09, but barely played during Nole’s down period in 2010 and again from mid 16-18 when Nole was losing to Chung, Istomin, and Daniel.
I counted up the #s of matches in another thread but you can feel free to look at the H2H listing and confirm what I’m saying.
Basically when Nole is bad, he’s so bad that he loses before he meets Fedal, keeping his H2H and confidence intact. When Fedal have been bad, they’ve still played him a lot. This is especially true of Roger against both Nadal and Djokovic
The same was true of the early Nadal/Federer H2H, Federer kept meeting Nadal on clay and Nadal didn’t reach him off clay often until Nadal was peaking and Federer declining.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
They didn't play for a whole year after Nadal's RG win in 2014. They played 4 times in 2015 and 3 times in 2016, and in that last meeting in 2016 Nadal was playing very well, coming off a MC title. Nadal has many meetings against Djokovic early in his career on clay before Djokovic reached his true potential and even wins on other surfaces early on. It more than balances out at the end.
This is false for the sheer fact that Djokovic's consistency can only be rivaled by Federer and in a way he might even surpass him in that regard because he was always deep into every clay event as well. It's not a coincidence that Djokovic has played Federer more than anyone ever and has played Nadal more than anyone ever. The stats clearly suggest the opposite of what you are saying. Djokovic was always there to play them rain, sleet or shine, and the only time he fell off in his career was when he was going through a chronic injury.
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
Bullcrap, no he is not.
Doesn't even compare to Nadal's problems. And he should have won the Paris meeting earlier than he did. Federer messed up at Wimbledon, but Djokovic played quite an average final for his standards. So much for being much closer to his prime..
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
The difference between the number of their clay and hard meetings is minimal even though hard court season is twice as long. What more do they want, another six meetings at Roland Garros alone?
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Wow, you have serious problems. Nadal played terrible tennis in that MC tournament. The real winner of this tournament was not him, it was Vesely. Thanks for taking Djokovic out and letting Nadal fluke a win in like 2 and a half years. Do you honestly believe that it was prime Nadal? Seriously??? He lost a set 6-2 to Murray, and needed 3 hours to beat Monfils. On clay. Then lost to Murray in Madrid. It's a joke if you really believe prime Nadal could lose to Murray on clay. I'll give you a hint: if Djokovic can destroy Murray on clay then Nadal can do that for sure.
Funniest thing is that when Djokovic wins a title (Rome 2008 or Madrid 2019) and then loses to Nadal you find a reason to why he didn't play well. But for Nadal to win a title (even if that was his worst title ever) means he is at his peak. The truth is that Djokovic in 2008-2009 was close to his prime on clay, MUCH closer than Nadal was to his in 2016.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Exactly, and it makes no sense that this has to be fact checked.
Big semifinals between the 3 (Slams, Masters, WTF, Olympics)
Federer -- 128
Djokovic -- 112
Nadal -- 112
Big finals
Federer -- 92
Nadal -- 81
Djokovic -- 81
Nadal made his first Slam SF in 2005 and won like 4 or 5 Masters that year. Djokovic didn't do it until 2007 and that was the year he won his first Master's title. He's two years behind but matches Nadal in this stat and closing in on Federer, but he dodged these guys? No way.
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
Lol how many times did he play Nadal before the USO in 2010, and how many times did he play Nadal during his recent down period? How many times did he play Nadal in late 2009 when Rafa came back from injury and how many times again during Rafa’s down period?
The numbers speak for themselves. The argument that late era wins against Nadal are worth the same as peak ones work both ways, Djokovic was certainly better from mid 07-madrid 09 than Nadal was from mid 14-16 and certainly closer to physical prime than Nadal post 2014. 08-Madrid 09 was prime level and he has only himself to blame for not backing it up in 2010 due to racket change/mental struggles/Todd Martin/tinkering with his serve
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Oh Vesely was the "rightful" winner of 2016 MC and I am the one with serious problems? Lol. You may want to check the name on the trophy. If Djokovic couldn't even beat Vesely, then how was he going to beat everyone else. He played terrible in that match and needed a break. Nowhere does it say prime Nadal. It says Nadal played very well in Rome, pushing Djokovic to two tight sets. Revisionist antics won't change that fact.
They played plenty of times before 2008 or 2009. They played 8 times in fact with Nadal getting two wins by retirement so I don't have to even talk about those years in reference to this. That last sentence is more conjecture than anything proven with any facts.
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
Look no one is arguing that Nole dodged Fedal for his success. He has many amazing wins over both. The only argument is that he saved his confidence as the years went on by losing to mugs when he was out of form instead of reaching them
BlueB
Legend
I kinda remember Rafa ducking Nole at RG. I guess the memories of the spanking, of rhe previous year, were still too fresh [emoji6]
Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
IMO Rafa has definitely made some strategic pullouts in his career. It’s not mutually exclusive. I would argue that Roger on the other hand has not done this
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic in MC 2016 was going to destroy Nadal in straight sets. He wouldn't play against him nearly as bad as he did against Vesely whom he just didn't take seriously. Nadal was absolutely terrible against Murray and Monfils and only won because they were weak opponents who choked on the big points. Against a strong opponent like Djokovic he wouldn't stand a chance. Yes, he won this title only thanks to Vesely, it's a fact.
He actually played a bit better in Rome than he did in MC, but nowhere near his prime level. And his mentality was at the lowest point. He missed a good lead in the first set, and the second set was arguably the biggest choke of his career. And Djokovic wasn't even that great at that tournament. (bageled by Bellucci, lost a set 6-2 to Nishikori, a terrible performance against Murray in the final)
The part in bold is especially funny. So you think that for Nadal to push Djokovic to two tight sets on clay is an amazing achievement, this is the best he can hope for. On the other hand for Djokovic to lose a match in 3 sets to Nadal on clay is terrible. (Rome 2019. And Djokovic was coming from a title in Madrid, so using your logic he was at his best)
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Nadal actually came back from injury and made the SF of the USO. It wasn't like he just got back when he lost to Djokovic in Paris and WTF. So Djokovic's win over Nadal in fall 2009 are considered over an out of form Nadal? That's new on me. The matches between Djokovic and Nadal on hardcourt are almost equal to the matches they played on clay, although clay is 1/3 of the tour. That says it all.
The numbers do speak for themselves but you can't be looking at the same numbers I am looking at. Any implication that Djokovic has ever dodged Fedal when he has played them 48 and 54 times is reinvention. Fedal have only played each other 41 times by comparison.
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NoleFam
Bionic Poster
This is too out there for a response as you have gone off the deep end, again. You spend this much energy on a lost cause to prove how bad Nadal was although he actually won a Masters title over Thiem, Wawrinka and Murray, but you have no answers to why Djokovic should have played Nadal 10 times at RG, and this somehow shows he has dodged him there. PS, they have already played 7 times at RG.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
I like how you simply ignored the part of my comment which tells about your double standards.
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
He made the SF of the USO where he had an abdominal muscle tear lol!
I picked my time periods very specifically. Nadal was bad for the second half of 09, Nole also had a drop in motivation after Madrid 09 but was healthy and able to take advantage of Nadal’s form down the stretch. During this 6 month period Nole went 3-0 against Nadal.
Nole was weak for most of 2010 but didn’t reach Nadal until the USO. During the entire 12 month period they met twice, Nadal going 2-0
From 11-13 they had many great battles, much as they did in 07-09 and as is normal they had different periods of success against each other.
After AO14 Nadal exited his physical prime and was in poor form reaching an absolute nadir in 2015, including several different injuries. From miami 2014 until Rome 2016 Nadal and Djokovic met 11 times with a 10-1H2H advantage in Nole’s favor.
Conversely when Nole struggled from W16-RG18, they met TWICE. To say that time period doesn’t count because Nole was hurt is a delusional level of hypocrisy.
Looking at two very analogous patches of bad form from each player that followed the other each time (which makes total sense given their ages):
Nole went 13-1 against Nadal when Nadal was out of form
Nadal went 4-0 against Nole when Nole was out of form.
Ten less meetings, similar time frames. Case closed.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Djokovic has been beating Nadal on hardcourt since 2007: beat him twice on hardcourt in 2007 and twice in 2008. He doesn't need Nadal to be out of form to beat him in hardcourt and the head to head says so. Now if Nadal was injured in those matches in 2009 then that's a different story but as far as I know, Nadal was healthy enough to compete in the fall of 2009. He has never been strong in the fall season anyway at the end of the day.
They actually met 10 times from 2014-2016 with Djokovic going 9-1.
An even more level of hypocrisy is in return not accepting that Nadal has missed more periods of the game than Djokovic (2012, 2014 and 2016) but at the same expecting for Djokovic to reach later stages of tournaments to take his beatings when for the first time in his career, he is struggling with a serious injury, is unable to play and missed a total of 8 months because of it. That's what hypocrisy really looks like. While you are asking for meetings when Djokovic wasn't even holding a racket then, where was Nadal in 2012 USO, 2013 AO, 2012 WTF, 2014 WTF, etc. on the flip side? So pardon me for not seeing your reason when Djokovic only had one period in his career where he took an extended break compared to at least 2 or 3 from Nadal. As far as Djokovic not meeting Nadal in 2010, he just wasn't good enough which is the second worst year since 2017. He still made it to the SF and F of a Slam and actually played the WTF and got beaten by Nadal.
Case has been closed a long time ago but you are contuining to try to prove a point that will never be proven.
BlueB
Legend
Are you sure about that? [emoji3166][emoji2958]
Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
clayqueen
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, Nadal had injury on his stomach muscle in the fall of 2009.
•Sep 10, 2009
23371SHARESAVE
MTO during match vs Almagro - USO 2009
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yes, Nadal had injury on his stomach muscle in the fall of 2009.
MTO during match vs Almagro - USO 2009
This is the USO. I am talking about Paris and WTF.
wangs78
Legend
This is a great chart. It is evidence that at the highest levels of pro tennis, there is a constant evolution of playing styles that is driven by the desire to dethrone whoever is the king at a certain point in time. When Fed was on top, Nadal came along and found his weakness (Fed's OHBH). When Nadal was on top, Djokovic came along with an impenetrable baseline game. With Djokovic on top, the young guns have emulated his style but added more power to their game. It's no surprise that the young players who have beaten Djokovic all have access to easy power. It's also no surprise that Fed and Nadal have had a better record against these guys because both Fed and Rafa have greater variety that allows them to disrupt these young guys who are basically (and I generalize) more powerful, but slightly slower versions of Djokovic. It will be interesting to see after Medvedev, Zverev, Tsitsipas and others have been at the top for a while, which style will emerge to knock them off the pedestal.
This does beg an interesting question - where does Thiem fall into this cycle. His is a baseliner akin to the young players, but his speed and athleticism more like the Big 3. He has shown good variety as well over the last two years, but his consistency over the course of the year is still suspect. I would like him to win a few Slams but if Medvedev can continue at his level it will be hard to see Thiem break through outside of clay. Maybe what will happen over the next 3-4 years is Thiem on clay, Med/Zverev/Tsitsi on hardcourts, with grass being the most competitive with the Big 2/3 remaining competitive with the young guys.
clayqueen
Talk Tennis Guru
The 2014 Rafael Nadal tennis season officially began on 30 December 2013 with the start of the 2014 Qatar ExxonMobil Open. This season saw Nadal suffer from injuries that included a back injury, a wrist injury, and appendicitis. After losing in the final of the Australian Open where he suffered from a back injury, Nadal failed to defend his titles at Indian Wells, Barcelona, and Rome. He rebounded by claiming his 9th French Open. Prior to the North American hardcourt season, Nadal would experience another injury, this time a wrist injury which forced him to withdraw from the Rogers Cup, the Western & Southern Open and the US Open where he was the defending champion. Nadal announced on 24 October that he would not be competing for rest of the season due to appendicitis and eventually underwent surgery.[1] Despite an injury plagued season, Nadal still ended the year at No. 3 with 4 titles.
2014 Rafael Nadal tennis season - Wikipedia
NADAL, STILL NURSING LEFT WRIST INJURY, PULLS OUT OF WIMBLEDON
by: MULTIPLE AUTHORS | June 09, 2016
Nadal, still nursing left wrist injury, pulls out of Wimbledon | Tennis.com
A two-time champion and three-time runner-up at the All England C
clayqueen
Talk Tennis Guru
Do you never ask yourself how it is that Djokovic only leads Rafa by 2 in their h2h despite totally dominating Rafa in periods when Rafa was either injured or recovering from injury?
clayqueen
Talk Tennis Guru
So? He didn't suddenly recover after the USO, did he?
clayqueen
Talk Tennis Guru
Care to elaborate? You can't just make statements like this without valid proof.
clayqueen
Talk Tennis Guru
You seem to think that Djokovic's career is defined by beating Nadal. You're beginning to sound like Kyrgios who has made beating Nadal, his legacy.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Of course not. It's people suggestions that Djokovic dodged Nadal at RG or that he dodged Nadal period that I have an issue with.
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
My mistake, 9-1 is so much better than 10-1. Novak was certainly holding a racket to lose to Istomin, Chung, Daniel, Ceccinato, etc. If you’re injured, don’t play. If you’re playing, but recovering from injury/dealing with personal issues/whatever you’re just in bad form which are the time periods I’ve included.
I was very charitable to Nole to include the 09/10 down phases, I did so because they were analogous to each other. Account for the 9-1 vs 0-2 difference periods where one of the players was post prime and very out of form (2014-18) and the H2H is 19-24. I don’t believe in what ifs, and I only make this point because of your utter denial to admit the disparity.
I already explained my position earlier in the thread that I’m not claiming that Nole didn’t face Fedal enough during his rise to the top, just that the H2H comparison needs context and that Nole benefited confidence wise from avoiding Fedal during his skids.
Plain and simple, Nole was healthy enough to play but not good enough to reach later stages and take his lumps from Fedal when out of form. He played them a lot as an upstart up and comer and at his peak but one does not take away from the other. Nadal has pulled out a couple times before potentially facing Nole or Roger too (RG16 for example) but to pretend Nole hasn’t benefited heavily from the above disparity requires an absolute denial of reality.
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RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
Not reaching =/= intentionally dodging, but it helps with H2H confidence anyways. See: Fedal rivalry 2005-2008.
clayqueen
Talk Tennis Guru
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
At slams Nole is 11-1 against Next Gen (i.e. born since 1996).
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