“He Is Already The Best Tennis Player In History”- Goran Ivanisevic On Novak Djokovic

KINGROGER said:
The best player ever who isn’t the best on any surface but slow HCs. Lol.
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Slow HC is still HC, KR. :) And why is it so much better to be greater on fast HC than it is slow anyway? I've never quite understood that(and it only ever seems to be Federer fans that come out with it).
 
I also think Novak is the best player ever but now he also needs to translate that ability and get to 21. Novak won a lot but also wasted some opportunities in a weak era (like the wawrinka losses), now he needs to cash in against past prime fedal and a mediocre nextGen and get to 21.

He can do that but he needs to stay healthy and mentally stable.

If Novak gets to 21 or even just 20 he is clearly the goat because at this point he will be tied at 1 for slams, 1 at masters titles and probably 1 at weeks at number 1.
 
I disagree on Goran regarding Novak being the GOAT but those that think he's saying this because Novak is his current employer don't really get Goran's personality IMO.
 
doparrained said:
and Federer is also not the best clay player, best carpet player, or best anything HC player (no U.S Opens and only 2 U.S Open finals after age 27 is sure as heck not the best fast hard court player ever, and obviously he isn't the best slow hard court player of his own era, let alone ever) either. Heck he probably isn't even the best grass player ever, which would be someone like Laver, Tilden, Gonzales, or Sampras who isn't 0-3 vs someone else in Wimbledon finals.

not GOAT material for me.
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Maybe not but he’s certainly closer to being GOAT than the other big 2, regardless of how much stat padding is done in 30s.

he’s certainly GOAT of grass and Co-GOAT on HC.
 
Lew II said:

“I repeat, for me, he is already the best tennis player in history. When he is present, ready and healthy, there is no one better.”

“What will be looked at at the end of their careers will be decided by people, but I think Novak will be the best in all relevant categories.”

“I do not believe Novak will play for another five years, although he has a very good five years. He will most likely top the Federer record for most weeks at No 1 after the US Open and the record for most weeks at No 1 after the US Open and the record for most grand slams next year.”
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I repeat, you repeat, he repeats.
 
KINGROGER said:
Maybe not but he’s certainly closer to being GOAT than the other big 2, regardless of how much stat padding is done in 30s.

he’s certainly GOAT of grass and Co-GOAT on HC.
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It isn't certain he is GOAT on grass. For me the GOAT on grass doesn't go 0-3 in Wimbledon finals vs a chief rival (who as you said yourself is clearly not the grass GOAT making it even worse), regardless his age since he was playing well enough to be in the finals in the first place. Depending who you talk to Laver, Gonzales, Tilden, even Sampras could all have a case. It is not like he is the equivalent of Nadal on clay, head and shoulders above all others.

As for HC well you broke down specific types of hard court just to devalue Novak so make up your mind. If you are doing it that way Federer is definitely not the GOAT of either fast hard court with no U.S Open titles and only 2 U.S Open finals after age 27, and his WTF titles in an era of a slower indoor event that is not carpet with his main rivals as baseliners (and still doesn't have the record which is Lendl with 7). Nor slow hard court where he isn't even tops in his own era let alone all time, nor medium hard courts where Djokovic and even clay courter Nadal probably have more Masters titles on medium hard court paced events.
 
doparrained said:
It isn't certain he is GOAT on grass. For me the GOAT on grass doesn't go 0-3 in Wimbledon finals vs a chief rival (who as you said yourself is clearly not the grass GOAT making it even worse), regardless his age since he was playing well enough to be in the finals in the first place. Depending who you talk to Laver, Gonzales, Tilden, even Sampras could all have a case. It is not like he is the equivalent of Nadal on clay, head and shoulders above all others.

As for HC well you broke down specific types of hard court just to devalue Novak so make up your mind. If you are doing it that way Federer is definitely not the GOAT of either fast hard court with no U.S Open titles and only 2 U.S Open finals after age 27, and his WTF titles in an era of a slower indoor event that is not carpet with his main rivals as baseliners (and still doesn't have the record which is Lendl with 7). Nor slow hard court where he isn't even tops in his own era let alone all time, nor medium hard courts where Djokovic and even clay courter Nadal probably have more Masters titles on medium hard court paced events.
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Federer was 7/8 in finals during his prime. Djokovic is better than 30s Fed on wimbledon grass I agree.

Fed is better than both on medium-fast HCs. He’s the GOAT of 2 surfaces.
 
doparrained said:
It isn't certain he is GOAT on grass. For me the GOAT on grass doesn't go 0-3 in Wimbledon finals vs a chief rival (who as you said yourself is clearly not the grass GOAT making it even worse), regardless his age since he was playing well enough to be in the finals in the first place. Depending who you talk to Laver, Gonzales, Tilden, even Sampras could all have a case. It is not like he is the equivalent of Nadal on clay, head and shoulders above all others.

As for HC well you broke down specific types of hard court just to devalue Novak so make up your mind. If you are doing it that way Federer is definitely not the GOAT of either fast hard court with no U.S Open titles and only 2 U.S Open finals after age 27, and his WTF titles in an era of a slower indoor event that is not carpet with his main rivals as baseliners (and still doesn't have the record which is Lendl with 7). Nor slow hard court where he isn't even tops in his own era let alone all time, nor medium hard courts where Djokovic and even clay courter Nadal probably have more Masters titles on medium hard court paced events.
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That seems a very problematic qualifier to me. So if he loses before the final we omit the docking of esteem based on inference of negative age effects as opposed to their dismissal? What of the outperformance in light of such hurdles?
 
KINGROGER said:
Federer was 7/8 in finals during his prime. Djokovic is better than 30s Fed on wimbledon grass I agree.

Fed is better than both on medium-fast HCs. He’s the GOAT of 2 surfaces.
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Federer is not the GOAT of medium or fast HCs. The fast HC GOAT did not fail to win a U.S Open and make only 2 finals after age 27 despite playing another 12+ years, LOL! Fast hard court GOAT is either Sampras or Connors. Lendl even has a case with all his U.S Open finals in the toughest era in history and his record # of WTF titles facing carpet beasts like Becker, McEnroe, Edberg, and briefly Borg. Medium hard court GOAT is for sure not Federer, with Djokovic and Nadal having more Masters at medium hard court events than he has won.

As for grass I am not saying Djokovic is over Federer of course. I am saying the grass court GOAT would not be 0-3 in Wimbledon finals vs anyone. Laver, Tilden, Gonzales, or Sampras is the grass GOAT, someone who wasn't someone elses beetch.
 
TearTheRoofOff said:
That seems a very problematic qualifier to me. So if he loses before the final we omit the docking of esteem based on inference of negative age effects as opposed to their dismissal? What of the outperformance in light of such hurdles?
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Yes if you are going to keep losing in the finals in the first place, you are better off to just not get there in that case. If that is your question, that is the answer.
 
doparrained said:
Federer is not the GOAT of medium or fast HCs. The fast HC GOAT did not fail to win a U.S Open after age 27, LOL! Fast hard court GOAT is either Sampras or Connors. Lendl even has a case with all his U.S Open finals in the toughest era in history and his record # of WTF titles facing carpet beasts like Becker, McEnroe, Edberg, and briefly Borg. Medium hard court GOAT is for sure not Federer, with Djokovic and Nadal having more Masters at medium hard court events than he has won.

As for grass I am not saying Djokovic is over Federer of course. I am saying the grass court GOAT would not be 0-3 in Wimbledon finals vs anyone. Laver, Tilden, Gonzales, or Sampras is the grass GOAT, someone who wasn't someone elses beetch.
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Winning after age 27 isn’t relevant to anything. Fed is tied for USO titles, 7 Cincy, very high peak at Madrid indoors/shanghai, won multiple YEC on fast Houston and shanghai surfaces. Definitely goat or co goat of faster HC. Not talking about carpet.

losing finals in his 30s when he was half the player of his prime isn’t a mark against being the best grass player of his era.

I am comparing big 3, not Laver or previous era players.
 
KINGROGER said:
Winning after age 27 isn’t relevant to anything. Fed is tied for USO titles, 7 Cincy, very high peak at Madrid indoors/shanghai, won multiple YEC on fast Houston and shanghai surfaces. Definitely goat or co goat of faster HC. Not talking about carpet.

losing finals in his 30s when he was half the player of his prime isn’t a mark against being the best grass player of his era.

I am comparing big 3, not Laver or previous era players.
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The fast court GOAT would not fail to win a single U.S Open after age 27. And make only 2 finals despite playing over another decade. You can say whatever you want, but it is pretty simple. Most would agree with me.

Your only case would be they slowed the U.S Open down but even that wasn't until Federer was well into his 30s, which you just said yourself is meaningless and wouldn't explain his constant failures there while still relatively young, so that is covered too.
 
doparrained said:
The fast court GOAT would not fail to win a single U.S Open after age 27. And make only 2 finals despite playing over another decade. You can say whatever you want, but it is pretty simple. Most would agree with me.

Your only case would be they slowed the U.S Open down but even that wasn't until Federer was well into his 30s, which you just said yourself is meaningless and wouldn't explain his constant failures there while still relatively young, so that is covered too.
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He is tied as goat of HC USO with 5, same as Sampras. IIRC Connors won a couple on clay. This is a fact, unlike the drivel you just typed.
 
KINGROGER said:
This is probably as stupid as saying no USO won after age 27, Pantera.
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Do more people even on places like this praise Federer for making Wimbledon finals in his 30s or point out his 0-3 Wimbledon finals record vs Djokovic? Including even Federer fans themselves. I think we both know the answer to that, which basically proves me right.

And Djokovic himself was 32 years old in the final Federer had one of the most embrassing chokes in tennis history. Tilden and Laver were every bit as dominant as Federer on grass, maybe moreso. Sampras won 7 Wimbledons in 8 years, something Federer never managed. No Federer is not the unquestioned grass GOAT, even in the Open Era.
 
KINGROGER said:
He is tied as goat of HC USO with 5, same as Sampras. IIRC Connors won a couple on clay. This is a fact, unlike the drivel you just typed.
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If what I was saying is such drivel why is almost nobody agreeing with you so far in this thread, not even your fellow Federer fans which this forum is basically nothing but are praising your logic. Since it doesn't exist, haha.
 
doparrained said:
Do more people even on places like this praise Federer for making Wimbledon finals in his 30s or point out his 0-3 Wimbledon finals record vs Djokovic? Including even Federer fans themselves. I think we both know the answer to that, which basically proves me right.

And Djokovic himself was 32 years old in the final Federer had one of the most embrassing chokes in tennis history. Tilden and Laver were every bit as dominant as Federer on grass, maybe moreso. Sampras won 7 Wimbledons in 8 years, something Federer never managed. No Federer is not the unquestioned grass GOAT, even in the Open Era.
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Federer is at worst joint GOAT of grass for open era. The 0-3 vs Djokovic in his 30s means he isn’t invincible undisputed like the way Nadal is.
 
doparrained said:
If what I was saying is such drivel why is almost nobody agreeing with you so far in this thread, not even your fellow Federer fans which this forum is basically nothing but are praising your logic. Since it doesn't exist, haha.
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You don’t know what logic is, Pantera. You’ll be back in a couple of weeks with a new account after this one is banned.
 
Linelicker said:
Lew doesn't seem to be watching tennis. And it sounds like he doesn't care about tennis, either.
It's all about numbers, I think.

Led Zeppelin IV was their best seller. But it wasn't their best album.
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I've just realized that Lew is also being a bit sneaky with that stat - although it's technically true.

Novak Djokovic's best spell was winning 5 out of 6 slams between 2015 AO and 2016 FO, losing in the final of the other one. Of course it's technically true that he won 5 out of 7, either by going backwards in time by one slam to the 2014 USO, or forwards in time (as he has) to the 2016 W. But he was obviously more dominant than in a spell where you have to include 7 slams to get the 5 wins (2018 W - 2020 AO).

This is a good example of how statistics can be distorted. But of course Lew is the master of that.
 
Phoenix1983 said:
I've just realized that Lew is also being a bit sneaky with that stat - although it's technically true.

Novak Djokovic's best spell was winning 5 out of 6 slams between 2015 AO and 2016 FO, losing in the final of the other one. Of course it's technically true that he won 5 out of 7, either by going backwards in time by one slam to the 2014 USO, or forwards in time (as he has) to the 2016 W. But he was obviously more dominant than in a spell where you have to include 7 slams to get the 5 wins (2018 W - 2020 AO).

This is a good example of how statistics can be distorted. But of course Lew is the master of that.
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So winning 5 slams out of 7 is not peak because he did better in 2015?

It's like saying that in 2004 and 2005 Federer was not peak because he did slightly worse than in 2006.
 
KINGROGER said:
You don’t know what logic is, Pantera. You’ll be back in a couple of weeks with a new account after this one is banned.
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Jeebus, this guy doesn't know when to give up. He/she keeps coming back with new accounts and they get banned faster than someone hits moles at a whack-a-mole game. What's funny is that he/she announced that they would leave the forum back in September if Nadal won the US Open. LOL
 
Lew II said:
:(
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Real talk...do you think Djokovic's 2019 Wimbledon final is up there with his 2011 F, 2015 F or 2018 SF matches? Even the 2014 is clearly on a different level compared to the 2019 final. Don't know how you could call it peak Djokovic with a straight face.
 
Lew II said:
So winning 5 slams out of 7 is not peak because he did better in 2015?

It's like saying that in 2004 and 2005 Federer was not peak because he did slightly worse than in 2006.
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Irrespective of whether he is at peak now or not, your stat was misleading, because his best run was actually 5 out of 6 slams, with the other a losing final in 2015-16. This is better than 5 out of 7 in 2018-2020.
 
Third Serve said:
Lew, I almost sympathize with you here. NatF on a rampage!!!
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200.webp
 
Phoenix1983 said:
Irrespective of whether he is at peak now or not, your stat was misleading, because his best run was actually 5 out of 6 slams, with the other a losing final in 2015-16. This is better than 5 out of 7 in 2018-2020.
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In 7 slams he never won more than 5 titles. Nothing of what I wrote is false.
 
Lew II said:
In 7 slams he never won more than 5 titles. Nothing of what I wrote is false.
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That's why you personify the phrase "lies, damned lies and statistics".

A more extreme example of what you did would be to claim that Player A, who won 10 slams in a row and then didn't win in his next 20 slams, had the same level of dominance as Player B, who won every third slam over a period of 30 slams.

Both men would have won 10 slams out of 30, but clearly Player A was more dominant at his best.
 
Phoenix1983 said:
That's why you personify the phrase "lies, damned lies and statistics".

A more extreme example of what you did would be to claim that Player A, who won 10 slams in a row and then didn't win in his next 20 slams, had the same level of dominance as Player B, who won every third slam over a period of 30 slams.

Both men would have won 10 slams out of 30, but clearly Player A was more dominant at his best.
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It's not a lie. In 7 slams he never won more than 5 titles. That is true.

In 2015-16 he did better winning 5/6 though, I'll give you that.
 
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