UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
Of course. Ferrer played a similar grueling style yet had no major injuries for much of his career.
“Made Us Lost Twenty Years”: Gilles Simon Questions the Image of Roger Federer
- Thread starter Villain
- Start date
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
He is not blaming Federer, he is blaming people who were deluded enough to try to create Fedclones.
Huge difference.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Exactly.
My own kids were discouraged to play with OHBH. Fortunately, a situation that was easily rectified by removing their coach and appointing one who actually was willing to do what the kids felt was desirable for them (1HBH).
Villain
Professional
If you are assuming I am a Fed fan, you are incorrect. I’m not trying to help anyone vent and I don’t have any issues with Simon or what he said. I’m just interested in some discussion and don’t have an agenda or ulterior motives. While I did not post everything he said, it’s certainly not taken out of context from my end. Everything in that quote jives which what he said above that in the article.
fundrazer
G.O.A.T.
Was Ferrer consistently going deep or winning events week in and week out? No, not really.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
Fair enough, if your intentions were honest.
But next time you'll know that this kind of thread just serves to bash a player, not to actually discuss what he said or meant. That's unavoidable regardless, but you literally drew a target on Simon's face.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
Duh.
He was top 10 for "only" a long number of years, and reached numerous slam QFs... Played a busy schedule every year.
Did you even follow pro tennis before the pandemic? Just asking...
beltsman
G.O.A.T.
"He made us lose twenty years!"
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
Damn, you take things so literally, I fear what might happen if someone uses a metaphor on you.
You do realize that he wrote a whole CHAPTER about this in his book? No? What little you read is totally out of context.
Read it, and you'll understand it's not an attack on your precious hero...
Villain
Professional
Also fair enough but we are discussing what he meant for better or worse. I can’t help what other people try to turn this thread into. I’m sure Gilles will be fine, after all he’s a big boy.Fair enough, if your intentions were honest.
But next time you'll know that this kind of thread just serves to bash a player, not to actually discuss what he said or meant. That's unavoidable regardless, but you literally drew a target on Simon's face.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
Of course Gilles is laughing his butt off if he's reading this thread, laughing at the FedArmy triggered when Federer isn't the target at all. That's not even remotely the issue here.
Villain
Professional
Whether he’s correct or not, this is my interpretation as well.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
If he meant the young up and comers he should have waited to see their results before announcing them to be failures. BTW, most of the next generation young French players play nothing like Federer: Humbert, Gaston, Moutet are all very far from him (in fact they are much more similar to Nadal).
You didn't know what his point was and you don't know what whatever you know supports even the argument you are making. Or maybe you simply don't know anything.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
Nobody knows everything.You didn't know what his point was and you don't know what whatever you know supports even the argument you are making. Or maybe you simply don't know anything.
Except you. "Thou hast the knowledge of 51 fallen angels, and 56 wise men from eons from before the first amphibians crawled onto a tennis court..."
I believe that's a quote from the Necronomicon or st...
Didn't you claim an hour ago that you knew French tennis better than Simon?
We bow to you, all-knowing One...
Call me crazy, but I do trust Simon to know more on this subject than anyone on TTW.
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Tennis_Hands
Banned
fundrazer
G.O.A.T.
Look at my avatar. Is he an active player?
Yeah Ferrer played a bunch of mickey mouse tournaments too, but my point is in the masters and slams he wasn't all that consistent. Kind of like a Kohlschrieber in that he makes the 4th round and then says seeya.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I didn't claim anything of the sort, so your reading comprehension is severely lacking.
I made comment based entirely on the facts that contradict just about everything that his "opinion" on the matter represents.
You tried to throw a suggestion, unfortunately it is not clear what that was based on: the reality (of the up and coming young French players that I already mentioned) is even more devastating for his argument. For you to defend his statement means that you haven't watched any of these players play.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
Are you actually implying that Ferrer played MICKEY MOUSE TENNIS at those so-called "MM tournaments" (which weren't)? That he sort of just played 15%, ran far less, hit the ball much more lightly, tried less?
Are you trolling or being serious? Serious question: I am not sure which.
There are no MM events at the ATP. That's what sofa tennis experts usually claim.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
Hilarious... You named THREE French players and that proves... what?I didn't claim anything of the sort, so your reading comprehension is severely lacking.
I made comment based entirely on the facts that contradict just about everything that his "opinion" on the matter represents.
You tried to throw a suggestion, unfortunately it is not clear what that was based on: the reality (of the up and coming young French players that I already mentioned) is even more devastating for his argument. For you to defend his statement means that you haven't watched any of these players play.
T
TheNachoMan
Guest
A tennis player that actually tries to hit winners. Simon‘s worst nightmare
I think I see where Simon is coming from, but isn't it more of a criticism of French thinking (society) more than anything? That talent and style mean more than grit and hard work? I wonder what you'd uncover if you did some research on France--would you uncover this type of attitude overall? Roger is an athlete so it's pretty unlikely he did it all on talent.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
I named 6 French players, three from the old generation and three from the up and comers. The up and comers happen to be just about the best French players that are currently making inroads into the top echelons.
So between these two groups there isn't a single fvcking player that plays a style similar to Federer, and plenty that play a style similar to Nadal, for example.
What do you think that proves?
Villain
Professional
Not sure, but it would definitely be interesting research. I’ve read somewhere that French tennis schools focus more on technique than fitness. Maybe that was in the past and is no longer true or maybe it never was.
VashTheStampede
Professional
I agree with the Fed part. However, I’d also say that you can’t really teach speed. Raw athleticism is often an in-born, God-given talent, just like Fed’s touch is.
It’s not like every gym rat can simply become a 17 and 20 grand slam champion.
I really don’t think it’s that simple. Even with conditioning, a naturally nonathletic player would not be successful trying to emulate Novak or Rafa. Do you think Isner or Karlovic can play play like Novak or Rafa simply with effort and conditioning?Yes, you can’t play like Fed without his talent. You also can’t play like Novak or Rafa without their talent (speed).
Overall, I think players should develop their games according to their natural strengths, whether it be feel, speed, a big serve, etc.
PeoplesChamp
Legend
Nailed it.
PeoplesChamp
Legend
Simon is only bringing Fed supporters together. Look at how several players have commented on his greatness the last few days. Thanks Gilles.
sredna42
Hall of Fame
Of ALL the things wrong with tennis in recent times, of all the issues around the homogenization of court surfaces, and baseline playing style that has killed off all court play, he thinks that it is Federer and his style of attacking all court game that is the problem. Just LOL.
I'm starting to think the Simon is one of the dumbest f*cks on the ATP. He's more butthurt and salty about Federer than Matts Wilander even, the kvetching poltroon should just STFU, and go apply for a job as Nadal's shoe shiner.
HetTheGreaterer
Banned
Feder goat
HetTheGreaterer
Banned
That is the exact reaction he wants from people like you and me, to gain publicity for his books.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
If a coach tries to make a player copy Federer, what does it mean?
- He has a pretty textbook, modern FH although his grip is Eastern while most other players use SW
- Nothing unusual in his topspin BH except that it is a 1H which is less common
- He is a baseliner who comes to net more often than most and volleys better than most. So, a baseliner with good volleys.
- He has pretty high shot tolerance for his level and wins a high % of long rallies
- He hits with heavy topspin like most ATP players.
- He is a precison server whose pace is not overpowering
- He hits balls on the rise often on ground strokes and returns
- He uses a slice BH offensively either with short angles to open up the court or as an approach shot.
The only thing that truly makes Federer unique compared to the average ATP player in style are the last two points - hitting the ball on the rise frequently and hitting the BH slice offensively. Djokovic hits the ball early just like him and it is a good trait that they both share.
So, is Gilles Simon saying that players in France have been asked to stand close and hit balls on the rise too much? Or is he saying that they are being asked to hit BH slice as an offensive weapon too much? Very confusing on what exactly they are being made to do that he objects to. No one coaches players to hit flat like Gilles does and maybe he doesn’t like that?
Or he wrote a troll chapter to be a contrarian which is a great way to promote a book in France which in my opinion is a nation of conformists to the ‘French way’ while each of them believes that they are unique in a special way.
- He has a pretty textbook, modern FH although his grip is Eastern while most other players use SW
- Nothing unusual in his topspin BH except that it is a 1H which is less common
- He is a baseliner who comes to net more often than most and volleys better than most. So, a baseliner with good volleys.
- He has pretty high shot tolerance for his level and wins a high % of long rallies
- He hits with heavy topspin like most ATP players.
- He is a precison server whose pace is not overpowering
- He hits balls on the rise often on ground strokes and returns
- He uses a slice BH offensively either with short angles to open up the court or as an approach shot.
The only thing that truly makes Federer unique compared to the average ATP player in style are the last two points - hitting the ball on the rise frequently and hitting the BH slice offensively. Djokovic hits the ball early just like him and it is a good trait that they both share.
So, is Gilles Simon saying that players in France have been asked to stand close and hit balls on the rise too much? Or is he saying that they are being asked to hit BH slice as an offensive weapon too much? Very confusing on what exactly they are being made to do that he objects to. No one coaches players to hit flat like Gilles does and maybe he doesn’t like that?
Or he wrote a troll chapter to be a contrarian which is a great way to promote a book in France which in my opinion is a nation of conformists to the ‘French way’ while each of them believes that they are unique in a special way.
vex
Legend
This was a thread about 2 weeks ago. But not ur fault
Tennis in general at the youth level seems to be overcoached. Maybe something to do with the advent of YouTube and the ability to now break down every stroke to an insanely granular level.
Probably not a coincidence that a generation coached that way cannot keep up with an older generation that was probably allowed to develop their own strokes without overanalyzing.
Probably not a coincidence that a generation coached that way cannot keep up with an older generation that was probably allowed to develop their own strokes without overanalyzing.
ericarnett88
Rookie
..
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titoelcolombiano
Legend
Not a single player who plays like Federer came out of France in that period, so if they were trying that they lost 20 years indeed.
Geez and you say the VB is illiterate... wow!
accidental
Hall of Fame
Are there even any young french pros who have a single handed backhand?
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
This has been quite obvious for twenty years, as well, the one handed backhand is a tell-tale sign.
You wouldn't want to teach Nadal in preference to Djokovic either unless you wanted to excel on the clay.
You wouldn't want to teach Nadal in preference to Djokovic either unless you wanted to excel on the clay.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
BHud
Hall of Fame
Perhaps he’s saying that coaches have only been training Federer’s style of play?
aldeayeah
G.O.A.T.
hahahaha what the hell
kohli has 1 slam QF in his entire life
ferru has >10 slam QFs, bunch of SFs, one final
ferru used to play 80-90 matches a season in his prime, kohli would be around 60-70
Not even close. And I like Kohli a lot BTW.
Also, reaching the same rounds again and again is the very definition of consistence.
ok, let's face reality.
20 years ago ALL french coaches started to train Fed style.
usually kids start tennis at age of 4 years old or older, so by now we should see 24 years old french players, all playing Fed style.
now let's open the ranking and look at the players that are younger than 24 years old, although, honestly, I think it could go up to 25 / 26 years old players easily.
Please tell me which plays like Fed"
Ugo Humbert, 22 years old
Lucas Pouille, 26 years old
Corentin Moutet, 21 years old
Gregoire Barrer, 26 years old
Antoine Hoang, 24 years old
Hugo Gaston, 20 years old
Arthur Rinderknech, 25 years old
Benjamin Bonzi, 24 years old
Enzo Couacaud, 25 years old
Maxime Janvier, 24 years old
Mathias Bourgue, 26 years old
Elliot Benchetrit, 22 years old
Alexandre Muller, 23 years old
Hugo Grenier, 24 years old
Geoffrey Blancaneaux, 22 years old
Manuel Guinard, 24 years old
these are the french players within top 300 ATP ranking.
which is quite generous, as by the age of 24 all these new Feds should have cracked top 100 at least, isn't it?
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
It’s not that strange the media and stuff thought Federers way was the best way to play back then. He was THE dominant player before Rafa ruined that dominance. Federer was something fresh and new.
If someone again comes and plays like that and wins, these things will be said again. He has a type of game many likes, maybe easy to like for non tennis fans too. Novak style is for the patient ones while Rafa in the middle. The crowd likes the wow factor and Federer got that. It’s not a coincidence he is so popular. People like some flash
Jaitock1991
Hall of Fame
The guy was always considered to be a highly intelligent person as far as I've heard, but given his comments lately(which could have been taken out of context or be completely lost in translation of course) I'm slowly starting to question if that's really the case. Not to mention the fact that on tour these days pretty much nobody plays even remotely like Fed and all the juniors coming up that I've seen if anything play a lot more like Rafa than Fed.
aldeayeah
G.O.A.T.
It seems like the dominating templates are Djokorray-like "modern baseliner" and/or Safin/Berdych-like "modern ballbasher"
Alfred Chicken
Rookie
Gilles "they say Federer can heal the blind, and I'm just exaggerating a little" Simon 
duaneeo
G.O.A.T.
That's what I'm not getting. If it were "only believed" that players should be trained to play like Federer, where are these players? Why are we only seeing Nadalovic clones in today's game?
I think Federer has taken the right stance on this matter: Ignore.
.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
That you cherry-pick, as usual...?I named 6 French players, three from the old generation and three from the up and comers. The up and comers happen to be just about the best French players that are currently making inroads into the top echelons.
So between these two groups there isn't a single fvcking player that plays a style similar to Federer, and plenty that play a style similar to Nadal, for example.
What do you think that proves?
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