King_ Zeglan12
Professional
Peak Fedovic war going, feels like old times at TTW
0-2 in Wimbledon finals
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GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Roddick himself would laugh at this comparison.
if all you are going to offer is “weak era mugs” arguments let’s just skip this
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Are you seriously comparing Roddick with those guys?
Phillippoussis and Soderling were still better than Berrettini and Kyrgios. And Novak beat Cilic too.
Lleytonstation
Bionic Poster
Berretinni might be the worst finalist ever.
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
LOL.. He didn't defeared Nadal at slams until AO17, it was 23-11 H2H for Nadal : DI'm not jealous. Just pointing out the fact that Federer also got the better of Nadal after 2013, not just Djokovic
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Didn't Djokovic win 2 GS finals while injured against the supposed evolved players? So why are Phillippoussis and Baghdatis still getting flak when the creme de la creme mugged up more.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
But he did get the better of him after 2013, winning 6 of their 8 matches.
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
He won 3 WB's by beating your guy : D
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
Yes, by evading clay : D
He needed Soderling to win RG, wasn't able to took 2 sets from Rafa.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
If you have nothing important to say related to the conversation, don't speak.
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
That is not important!? : D
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Which is more than compensated by Novak obtaining inflated wins vs the worst ever Nadal.
And Djokovic needed to evade both Rafa AND Stan to win his maiden RG.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I was talking about those respective guys, not Federer.
duaneeo
G.O.A.T.
Even if so, he's only a weak-era player of Federer's generation, no? Why would you care what he thinks.
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
Your guy wasn't able to beat any version. 2 wins for entire career, Novak did that in 2011 : D
And he defeated Nadal 2 times, no need for Soderling : D
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
The whole “weak era mugs” type of arguments is a waste of time.
I think we can all agree that the big 3 are above the rest of the players they faced
and evidence shows no one here has any clue how to measure levels across time for other players
let’s stop pretending we know whether the non Big 3 competition Fed faced is greater or smaller than the one Novak or Nadal faced. There’s no way to measure that. No one here has developed a method or shown they have any expertise to do that.
I think this will save all of us a lot of time.
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic might as well not have been competing with these guys for the biggest trophies, but there he is, always, year in year out making it to finals. Never losing early. He has played both Sinner and Alcaraz a combined 6 times in slams, he won some and lost some. Guys that when Djokovic turned pro, where infants. Making fun of him for losing these matches is like shooting yourself in the foot: At this age Djokovic might as well have been losing earlier or even retired now, and we wouldn't even have seen him play vs Alcaraz or Sinner, but he is there, even after surgery and diminished movement, giving himself chances to have a go at the trophies. He will do the same at the Olympics on a completely different surface: again try to battle these guys at the end of the tournament on the most physically demanding surface.
duaneeo
G.O.A.T.
And yet you wrote that Federer's titles "were won against players like Phillppousis, Roddick, Soderling, Cilic and others like them". I could be wrong, but that sure seems to be a dig against those players.
And surely you know it wasn't the Federer fanbase who started the "weak-era" arguments. Your above comment is typical of what Nole fans have said for years.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Then why did you start dissing the guys Federer played?
GoatNo1
Legend
i can not see what raz wins vs nole has to nole-fed GOAT rce to do?
as for W it is irrelevant
fed vs nole at slams:
W
titles 8-7* (W20)
finals: 12-10
h2h: 1-3
h2h in F: 0-3
W%: 88,2 - 89,0
pretty close with big *
USO
titles: 5-4* (USO20/22)
finals: 7-10
h2h: 3-3
h2h in F: 1-1
W%: 86,4-87,1
pretty close with big *
RG
titles: 1-3
finals: 5-7
h2h: 1-1
W%: 81,1-85,7
clearly nole >> fed
AO
titles: 6-10* (AO22)
finals: 7-10
h2h: 1-5
W%: 87,2-91,3
clearly nole >>>> fed despite big *
as for W it is irrelevant
fed vs nole at slams:
W
titles 8-7* (W20)
finals: 12-10
h2h: 1-3
h2h in F: 0-3
W%: 88,2 - 89,0
pretty close with big *
USO
titles: 5-4* (USO20/22)
finals: 7-10
h2h: 3-3
h2h in F: 1-1
W%: 86,4-87,1
pretty close with big *
RG
titles: 1-3
finals: 5-7
h2h: 1-1
W%: 81,1-85,7
clearly nole >> fed
AO
titles: 6-10* (AO22)
finals: 7-10
h2h: 1-5
W%: 87,2-91,3
clearly nole >>>> fed despite big *
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Type bestie, type
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
Type bestie, type
Elaborate.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
I’m not dissing the guys Fed played. Sorry if that’s how it read.
I'm simply pointing out that the players Fed faced are very much like the players the rest of the Big 3 faced (except, of course, when the Big 3 face each other). Sure, not every non Big 3 player is the same but I’m making the point we don’t have the tools or the expertise to compare levels of these players across time. So all I’m pointing out is that both Fed and Novak had to face other ATGs and plenty of non ATGs. And there’s no way to measure who faced the hardest competition
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inflation_era
Professional
Weren't Djokovic fans claiming Fed was close to prime in 2019? Oh how the tables have turned.
sportsfan1
Legend
Berretini and kyrgios were hyped up as very tough opponents in the wimby finals they played, and their one sided losses put down to Novak being in top form.
But sinner at the aus open, the way Novak easily made the wimby finals and then getting dominated by carlos really puts those previous matches in perspective. Alcaraz especially just toying with Novak and playing his violin.
This is the natural course of how a match with a 20+ vs a regulation 30+ should actually play out. Not what we have been accustomed to seeing the last 5+ years.
But sinner at the aus open, the way Novak easily made the wimby finals and then getting dominated by carlos really puts those previous matches in perspective. Alcaraz especially just toying with Novak and playing his violin.
This is the natural course of how a match with a 20+ vs a regulation 30+ should actually play out. Not what we have been accustomed to seeing the last 5+ years.
chjtennis
G.O.A.T.
Yup, but BO3 and BO5 are very different + Cincy condition always suited Fed much better. At that USO final, it seemed old Federer didn't have it to defeat young, peak Djokovic.
chjtennis
G.O.A.T.
Of course, it was much closer than today's match. My point was, there's a point where an older guy doesn't seem to have enough of something to match the younger guy and that USO final was one of those ones.
Fed and Nole have a 6 year difference which is already kinda big for pro tennis, now Imagine being 16 years older than your biggest rival who is also in his prime.
Sputnik Bulgorov
Hall of Fame
He kind of did. He came into the 2015 FO final with a 17-4 record vs Wawrinka. And he lost. Novak turned his ‘Roddick’ into a 3 time slam champ. Not Roger’s fault Djokovic had a habit of dropping slam finals to lesser players.
It’s funny how Novak fans call Roddick a mug for his 3-21 record vs Roger, and yet Wawrinka is 3-23 vs Roger. But somehow the same people don’t call Wawrinka a mug, call him Stanimal. Maybe it’s because staying consistent would force them to admit Novak dropped slam finals to a mug.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
But that’s exactly the point. Wawa had the level to beat Novak at slams, and multiple times
Sputnik Bulgorov
Hall of Fame
He couldn’t beat Fed just like Roddick couldn’t beat Fed. 3-23 is worse than 3-21. ZERO wins on grass and hard in 19 matches. Pathetic. Why is Roddick a mug, but Wawrinka isn’t?
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Roddick isn’t a mug. It’s just that he wasn’t that much of a challenge for Federer
Sputnik Bulgorov
Hall of Fame
Neither was Wawrinka. But nobody belittles Wawrinka the way they do Roddick. If we’re using their record against Federer as a measuring stick for their overall competitive value, they’re both mugs. It’s pretty clear.
darthrafa
Hall of Fame
it is not weak, simply shxt
darthrafa
Hall of Fame
before rafa came to the horizon, the sw19 final where fed defeated roddick made me stop watching tennis
fed was tennis god to me, no matter how well roddick played, he knew he would not be able to win
comparing monfils to roddick is ridiculous and silly like only using the scores to determine how players had played (and i cant recall how many sets monfils taking from djoker)
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
The comparison isn’t both Wawa and Rodrick against Fed. It’s Rodrick vs Fed and Wawa vs Novak
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Sure
Sputnik Bulgorov
Hall of Fame
Why can’t I use Wawrinka’s pathetic 3-23 record vs Fed to conclude he’s weak competition in the same way that Roddick’s 3-21 record vs Fed is used to conclude he’s weak competition? We should try to keep variables constant here.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
I think you are misunderstanding the debate here.
The point I was making is that Fed’s dominance over Roddick is such that had Novak faced a player in multiple slam finals over which he had a similar level of dominance many here would claim that player was a mug. Obviously that doesn’t apply to Wawa and Novak
Sputnik Bulgorov
Hall of Fame
Fair enough. I was being obtuse on purpose. I apologize.
On a serious note, you’ve been handling all the trolling people like me have been doing really well. You’re a good poster
.
darthrafa
Hall of Fame
djoker is the most successful OAT (until there is another better), which is undebatable, esp given how many he won after 35
but in the meantime, every player cannot choose the era they are playing in which and which set of (shxt) players they are playing against
thus, it is meaningless to only use statistics to say which player is greater
for instance, if djoker has no more chance to defeat carlos after this defeat, i would not agree that carlos is better than the former on grass with a better H2H records (i.e. crybabies saying djoker is better than fed at sw19 with a better H2H)
i have no objection to those regard djoker is goat but i would accept that why ppl is so obsessed with GOAT title
if they switch it to SOAT, the debate can stop immediately until a better one comes out
but in the meantime, every player cannot choose the era they are playing in which and which set of (shxt) players they are playing against
thus, it is meaningless to only use statistics to say which player is greater
for instance, if djoker has no more chance to defeat carlos after this defeat, i would not agree that carlos is better than the former on grass with a better H2H records (i.e. crybabies saying djoker is better than fed at sw19 with a better H2H)
i have no objection to those regard djoker is goat but i would accept that why ppl is so obsessed with GOAT title
if they switch it to SOAT, the debate can stop immediately until a better one comes out
duaneeo
G.O.A.T.
This isn't true. The next generation of players who Federer faced after his peak/prime were Nadal/Djokovic/Murray/Wawrinka/Del Potro/Cilic/Berdych/Tsonga. The next generation of players who Djokovic faced after his peak/prime were Nishikori/Dimitrov/Raonic/Goffin/Thiem/Medvedev/Ruud/Berrettini/Kyrgios. You can easily measure who faced the hardest competition, and you can easily see why 2011-2016 past-prime Roger struggled against his NextGens and won a lone slam, while 2018-2023 past-prime Nole dominated his NextGens and won 12 slams.
And don't come back with the peak/prime-Nole-had-Rafa response. Nadal peaked much earlier than Djokovic and met peak/prime Federer at the slams eight times.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
I explicitly excluded the times the Big 3 faced each other.
There is no way to determine which is the better group from the remaining players. The tools to measure that don’t exist. No one here has that knowledge. That’s why no one here can predict matches with any consistency
GoldenMasters
Semi-Pro
Yes Alcaraz is joining Djokovic in greatness of defeating a champ in the finals at one of his pet slams at least 2 0 up. Djokovic did 3 0 with Federer. They are two greats now.
Nadal and Federer never achieved such pwnage against a player at their pet slam.
Nadal and Federer never achieved such pwnage against a player at their pet slam.
robthai
Hall of Fame
They never got straight setted like Djokovic did. First time he faced a younger ellite opponent and he has no answers. Now suddenly age matters lmao
abmk
Bionic Poster
ancient fed dominated Rao, Dimi, Nishi gen. LOL...
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