09 Del Potro with a serve like Isner/karlovic = Virtually unbeatable

[HunterST]

There are several tall players who have based their games almost entirely around huge serves. Karlovic, Isner, and even Querrey use their serves as their main weapons.

However, despite the fact that he is the same height as Querrey and only around 2-3 inches shorter than Karlovic and Isner, Del Potro's game is centered around his huge ground strokes. His serve is good, but not at the level of most very tall players.

Del Potro can out hit the best guys (Fed and Nadal) from the baseline. Imagine if he had a monster serve. It would be a huge feat to break his serve, and he would have a noticeably easier time winning games on other players' serves.

If it's not Delpo, I think we will eventually see this type of player, and he will usher in a new (taller) era of tennis. As a shorter guy, I'm not looking forward to it.

********** UPDATE******************

Could Milos Raonic be this new type/breed of player like I was describing here? Huge serve like Isner/Karlovic and a great ground game.

 

[viduka0101]

how about this:
Karlovic with Del Potro's ground strokes=Virtually unbeatable

 

[dlk]

He would be deadly, I just wonder if the big bodies can hold up over time.

 

[HunterST]

how about this:
Karlovic with Del Potro's ground strokes=Virtually unbeatable

Haha yep. Someone is going to be like that. Delpo has shown the big men can have great groundies, and we all knew how height gives you crazy serves.

 

[Fandango]

how about this:
Karlovic with Del Potro's ground strokes=Virtually unbeatable

I don't think so. Karlovic has a hard time moving with his height impediment, Delpo with a Dr. Ivo serve is a much better fit.

 

[LeeD]

You know, we thought the same thing back in the mid '70's, when Dibley could smack a few over 145, VictorAmaya was a rising junior (well, teenager), and some basketball pros started to turn heads in pro tennis, then along came some "midgets" (Connors, McEnroe, Agassi, Chang) who sorta could almost play the game at some level.
Could this happen again?
Certainly the odds are against anyone 5'10" and under. Certainly the above list proved that exceptions can exist in a world of norms.

 

[Fandango]

You know, we thought the same thing back in the mid '70's, when Dibley could smack a few over 145, VictorAmaya was a rising junior (well, teenager), and some basketball pros started to turn heads in pro tennis, then along came some "midgets" (Connors, McEnroe, Agassi, Chang) who sorta could almost play the game at some level.
Could this happen again?
Certainly the odds are against anyone 5'10" and under. Certainly the above list proved that exceptions can exist in a world of norms.

andre agassi is not a midget. he is 5'11 me thinks.

 

[LeeD]

I'm 5'11" and I'm a midget compared to most other big servers and big hitters.

 

[HunterST]

I'm 5'11" and I'm a midget compared to most other big servers and big hitters.

I'm 5'9"

Thus, I'm rooting for Richard Berankis to make it big.

 

[LeeD]

Funny thing. First pro I met was HaroldSolomon, at 5'5". He was great, real, talkative, can laugh at himself, and willing to listen to my sob stories.
Then his doubles bud EddyDibbs (5'7.5") showed up, and he clammed up, got uptight, and left.
I always rooted for AmadaCoetzer and AlbertoBarrasetchi. Hated the way they played, but rooted for then.

 

[HunterST]

Funny thing. First pro I met was HaroldSolomon, at 5'5". He was great, real, talkative, can laugh at himself, and willing to listen to my sob stories.
Then his doubles bud EddyDibbs (5'7.5") showed up, and he clammed up, got uptight, and left.
I always rooted for AmadaCoetzer and AlbertoBarrasetchi. Hated the way they played, but rooted for then.

You know, the wild thing about Berankis is he's super aggressive and has really big ground strokes. Usually the small guys are super quick counter punchers like Mike Russell. Of course, Davydenko is no giant and he has a great offensive game too.

 

[LeeD]

Both Amanda and Alberto have superlong aggressive strokes.
They're just too short to cover court, to serve big, or to intimidate the opponents. They are both great players, in my mind.

 

[mental midget]

i don't see the optimum height for a tennis player changing very much. excessive height offers more drawbacks than advantages imo. movement has never been at more of a premium, and of course, staying healthy is a good thing. the big guys can push people off the court, but it still requires hitting winners, which will always be the lower margin play over time. huge offense can bring success in spurts, but over time a mix of both skill sets is essential. even offensively-minded players like pete and roger were/are good defenders with serious speed.

6' to 6'3 or so seems to be the sweet spot. there will probably always be a place for shorter guys who are strong and play exceptional defense (ferrer being a good example, short guy, but a ball of muscle who can not only retrieve, but give the ball a good ride when in position.) the height of the bounce has really shifted the balance of power to the slightly larger player, for good i think. the mechanics of a 5'9 player catching the ball in the strike zone just aren't optimal unless they're catching the ball awfully early, which of course adds a ton of risk to the proposition.

 

[LameTennisPlayer]

I'm 5'11" and I'm a midget compared to most other big servers and big hitters.

It's because you are .... just like me :twisted:

 

[LeeD]

Yeah, one problem I can't get rid of is that age old problem of being born tiny, and staying that way all my life.
I played high school football all 3 years, and always the smallest on the team.
When I started tennis at age 24, I thought I had that cured, but every time, my idols were a couple 6 inches taller and over 40lbs. heavier.
Now, my best tennis buds are all over 200lbs, as have been my windsurfing buds and surfing buds.
I just wish I'd grow up one night, wake up to 6'4" and 185 lbs.
But alas, it just ain't gonna happen.

 

[HunterST]

Yeah, one problem I can't get rid of is that age old problem of being born tiny, and staying that way all my life.
I played high school football all 3 years, and always the smallest on the team.
When I started tennis at age 24, I thought I had that cured, but every time, my idols were a couple 6 inches taller and over 40lbs. heavier.
Now, my best tennis buds are all over 200lbs, as have been my windsurfing buds and surfing buds.
I just wish I'd grow up one night, wake up to 6'4" and 185 lbs.
But alas, it just ain't gonna happen.

5'11" isn't tiny. Average height is 5'9-5'10", so you're above average. Personally I'd be satisfied with 6' or 6'1"

 

[LeeD]

Funny ding...
When I was a little tyke, knowing my Dad was 5'6" and 125lbs., Mom 4'8" and 90 lbs., older sis short, older bro just growing, no uncles or aunts taller than 5'4", I wished I could be 5'10" and 150lbs.
Well, 150 is easy enough to achieve.
But who knew that I'd play football and basketball for my high school, needing more than 6'2" heights and weight closer to 190?
Be careful what you wish for. In this case, it came true and I'm still unhappy....:shock:
..and I wished for a young hot g/f. Got her, but she makes me work on the new house all the time! ......:evil:

 

[dlk]

Funny thing. First pro I met was HaroldSolomon, at 5'5". He was great, real, talkative, can laugh at himself, and willing to listen to my sob stories.
Then his doubles bud EddyDibbs (5'7.5") showed up, and he clammed up, got uptight, and left.
I always rooted for AmadaCoetzer and AlbertoBarrasetchi. Hated the way they played, but rooted for then.

Being 5'5" myself, he is certainly one of my heroes. Is he still coaching?

 

[veroniquem]

Delpo already has a big serve. Maybe he could use better movement.

 

[Talker]

Yep, Del Potro does already have a pretty good serve. In his matches at the last USO he played he took a little off his serve speed against Nadal and did the same against Federer, it helped his serve percentage and removed the predictability of his second serve by keeping the first serve in. It was a help.

He could probably add some speed to his serve as he's pretty tall but it's also good to have variation and placement so players don't 'key in' to the serve.

 

[SuperDuy]

Yeah height is a big advantage in most everyting. Being 5'8 barefoot, is a big downer. But seeing my Dad at 6'1.5 220lb, I will probably grow more and not be the midget.

 

[Totai]

so 5'8 is a midget now? .......

 

[piece]

i don't see the optimum height for a tennis player changing very much. excessive height offers more drawbacks than advantages imo. movement has never been at more of a premium, and of course, staying healthy is a good thing. the big guys can push people off the court, but it still requires hitting winners, which will always be the lower margin play over time. huge offense can bring success in spurts, but over time a mix of both skill sets is essential. even offensively-minded players like pete and roger were/are good defenders with serious speed.

6' to 6'3 or so seems to be the sweet spot. there will probably always be a place for shorter guys who are strong and play exceptional defense (ferrer being a good example, short guy, but a ball of muscle who can not only retrieve, but give the ball a good ride when in position.) the height of the bounce has really shifted the balance of power to the slightly larger player, for good i think. the mechanics of a 5'9 player catching the ball in the strike zone just aren't optimal unless they're catching the ball awfully early, which of course adds a ton of risk to the proposition.

Anyone else think that the movement of tall guys coming on seems to be improving slightly (examples like Murray, Safin, Del Potro)? If so, the 'sweet spot' of 6'-6'3 could easily move up.

 

[batz]

There are several tall players who have based their games almost entirely around huge serves. Karlovic, Isner, and even Querrey use their serves as their main weapons.

However, despite the fact that he is the same height as Querrey and only around 2-3 inches shorter than Karlovic and Isner, Del Potro's game is centered around his huge ground strokes. His serve is good, but not at the level of most very tall players.

Del Potro can out hit the best guys (Fed and Nadal) from the baseline. Imagine if he had a monster serve. It would be a huge feat to break his serve, and he would have a noticeably easier time winning games on other players' serves.

If it's not Delpo, I think we will eventually see this type of player, and he will usher in a new (taller) era of tennis. As a shorter guy, I'm not looking forward to it.

He can? What's his record like against Novak and Murray?

 

[HunterST]

He can? What's his record like against Novak and Murray?

Keep in mind, he was only 20-21 when he was playing these guys. Watch the US open final with Fed if you don't believe he can outhit these guys. That doesn't mean he will every time, but he's certainly capable of it. Throw in the advantage of a Querrey like serve and I wouldn't bet against him to beat Rafa and Fed (which I am NOT happy about).

 

[LeeD]

I like the chances of a Nadal with Ivanisevics serve, myself..
How about Connors with Tanner's serve?
Or maybe Hewitt with Dr.Ivo's serve?

 

[patty_mnouchkine]

There are several tall players who have based their games almost entirely around huge serves. Karlovic, Isner, and even Querrey use their serves as their main weapons.

However, despite the fact that he is the same height as Querrey and only around 2-3 inches shorter than Karlovic and Isner, Del Potro's game is centered around his huge ground strokes. His serve is good, but not at the level of most very tall players.

Del Potro can out hit the best guys (Fed and Nadal) from the baseline. Imagine if he had a monster serve. It would be a huge feat to break his serve, and he would have a noticeably easier time winning games on other players' serves.

If it's not Delpo, I think we will eventually see this type of player, and he will usher in a new (taller) era of tennis. As a shorter guy, I'm not looking forward to it.

are you kidding me!! he wins most of his points because of his serves. thats the only reason why he pulled out of the paris masters last year. without his serves he's nothing

 

[SuperDuy]

so 5'8 is a midget now? .......

Hey man, most my friends are over 6'1(4 even over 6'5), I feel like a midget compared to them.

 

[Manus Domini]

Look at Roddick. Huge serve but not perfect placement. Look at Roger. Perfect placement but not huge serve.

At the pro level, placement is far more important than speed.

And if he really wanted to mess with people, JMDP should get Nadal's serve. Imagine him serving lefty and playing everything else lefty

 

[batz]

Keep in mind, he was only 20-21 when he was playing these guys. Watch the US open final with Fed if you don't believe he can outhit these guys. That doesn't mean he will every time, but he's certainly capable of it. Throw in the advantage of a Querrey like serve and I wouldn't bet against him to beat Rafa and Fed (which I am NOT happy about).

Murray beat Delpo a couple of weeks before he won the USO and a couple of months after he won the USO.

Delpo may match up well against Rafa and Fed - but there are aother guys in the field who he doesn't quite match up so well to.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Del Potro had an excellent serve in 2009. Heck his 1st serve in 2009 probably wasnt much worse than Isner. Yet he never made it higher than #5 in the World (other than like a week at #4), and never even won a Masters title. So this is a dumb thread which ridiculously overrated Del Potro.

Maybe if Del Potro had the serve of Karlovic, movement of Nadal or Federer, volleying of Sampras, mental toughness of Nadal or Chang, backhand of Nalandian, return of serve of Agassi, to go along with his current forehand, he would be close to unbeatable, losing only a few matches a year. If he had the serve of Karlovic then maybe he would have won 1 or 2 Masters to go with his U.S Open title rather than 0.

 

[NadalAgassi]

And Federer or Nadal with Karlovic's serve would not lose a match for 3 years probably, other than maybe 1 or 2 losses a year for Federer on clay (to Nadal). Federer or Nadal with Karlovic's serve would most often beat Del Potro with Karlovic's serve. Nadal has a worse serve than a 100% Del Potro even now, yet still has won most of their meetings past, and will in the future. The only surface Del Potro can even hope to compete with Nadal is hard courts, forget about clay or grass.

 

[HunterST]

Look at Roddick. Huge serve but not perfect placement. Look at Roger. Perfect placement but not huge serve.

At the pro level, placement is far more important than speed.

And if he really wanted to mess with people, JMDP should get Nadal's serve. Imagine him serving lefty and playing everything else lefty

Are you kidding? Roddick's serve is way, way better than Federer's. Federer is just an all-round better player. Look at the stats on the ATP website in areas such as most aces, most service games won, most points won on 1st serves, most pts won on 2nd serves, and most break points saved. Roddick is in the top of all of them. Fed is not.

Murray beat Delpo a couple of weeks before he won the USO and a couple of months after he won the USO.

Delpo may match up well against Rafa and Fed - but there are aother guys in the field who he doesn't quite match up so well to.

You keep forgetting, Del Potro was/is nowhere near his prime. Lets see a match between a 20 year old Del Potro, who beat Nadal and out-hit Federer in ONE TOURNAMENT, and a 20 year old Murray. Delpo was losing those matches because he is not as mature of a player as Murray or Djokovic are. He was NOT losing because they were out-hitting him.

Del Potro had an excellent serve in 2009. Heck his 1st serve in 2009 probably wasnt much worse than Isner. Yet he never made it higher than #5 in the World (other than like a week at #4), and never even won a Masters title. So this is a dumb thread which ridiculously overrated Del Potro.

Maybe if Del Potro had the serve of Karlovic, movement of Nadal or Federer, volleying of Sampras, mental toughness of Nadal or Chang, backhand of Nalandian, return of serve of Agassi, to go along with his current forehand, he would be close to unbeatable, losing only a few matches a year. If he had the serve of Karlovic then maybe he would have won 1 or 2 Masters to go with his U.S Open title rather than 0.

You seriously think his serve was not much worse than Isner's? What is wrong with you? Delpo's serve was okay, but it was not much stronger than average height players. He never produced the kind of pace, spin, or placement that guys like Isner can produce. So you made a dumb post which ridiculously overrated Del Potro's serve.

And Federer or Nadal with Karlovic's serve would not lose a match for 3 years probably, other than maybe 1 or 2 losses a year for Federer on clay (to Nadal). Federer or Nadal with Karlovic's serve would most often beat Del Potro with Karlovic's serve. Nadal has a worse serve than a 100% Del Potro even now, yet still has won most of their meetings past, and will in the future. The only surface Del Potro can even hope to compete with Nadal is hard courts, forget about clay or grass.

You don't seem to understand the thread. I was not trying to create an unbeatable composite player. I was pointing out that most very tall players have a huge serve and questionable ground strokes. Del Potro has awesome groundies, but only average or slightly above average serve.

So you see, it's very likely that Delpo, or a player like him could have BOTH the huge paced groundstrokes AND a huge weapon for a serve.

 

[Deleted member 54563]

I had this exact impression of Delpo on his french open match against Federer in 2009, where there were times that he was both outplaying Fed from the baseline and his serve was untouchable, karlovic-like in some parts of that match (mostly 1st and 3rd set which he won I think).

It seemed like once Fed was behind he would never get the break, but it turned out that Delpo couldn't keep up that high level of play for much longer. He simply ran out of gas whereas Federer could keep his level and eventually won the match, showing much better fitness than Delpo at the time.

During that clay season I was also impressed by Delpo's evolution on his serve. If you watched his serve on the start of that season which I agree it was average, and compared with how he was serving on Madrid-RG and from then on, you would notice a huge improvement. He started to really use his height and serve bombs like someone of his stature should.

Hope he can get back in shape in no time, he was really missed last year.

 

[yellowoctopus]

Hypothetically, it would be quite dominating, but not unbeatable. Mr. Murray loves Del Potro's groundies, it's like butter to him

Realistically, this is very difficult to combine because those with serves like Isner and Karovic don't get to hit that many groundies; therefore, it's really that difficult to maintain the optimal level on all aspects of the game mentioned.

 

[Manus Domini]

Are you kidding? Roddick's serve is way, way better than Federer's. Federer is just an all-round better player. Look at the stats on the ATP website in areas such as most aces, most service games won, most points won on 1st serves, most pts won on 2nd serves, and most break points saved. Roddick is in the top of all of them. Fed is not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxzFlrFfUrg
can even be returned by players not used to serves that fast: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FiYe2Y1MKw&feature=related

and Fed had more aces than he at the Wimby 2009

The fact is, Sampras had what was considered one of the best serves ever and certainly the best 2nd. And his wasn't exactly the fastest serve there ever was

And to answer the title fully: just because someone has a good, fast serve does not mean it is the best. Placement>power in the pro world, and JMDP would certainly be beatable on surfaces other than USO even with Roddick's serve (esp. clay against Nadal)

 

[NadalAgassi]

You keep forgetting, Del Potro was/is nowhere near his prime. Lets see a match between a 20 year old Del Potro, who beat Nadal and out-hit Federer in ONE TOURNAMENT, and a 20 year old Murray. Delpo was losing those matches because he is not as mature of a player as Murray or Djokovic are. He was NOT losing because they were out-hitting him.

Murray and Djokovic own Del Potro in head to head, they own him in rankings even when Del Potro was playing his best (2009), they own him in titles, Djokovic owns him in slam results. So ok the one edge he has over Murray is a slam title which is big, but still in no way has he ever proven himself to be a better player than Djokovic or even Murray inspite of his lack of a slam title.

You seriously think his serve was not much worse than Isner's? What is wrong with you? Delpo's serve was okay, but it was not much stronger than average height players. He never produced the kind of pace, spin, or placement that guys like Isner can produce. So you made a dumb post which ridiculously overrated Del Potro's serve.

You don't seem to understand the thread. I was not trying to create an unbeatable composite player. I was pointing out that most very tall players have a huge serve and questionable ground strokes. Del Potro has awesome groundies, but only average or slightly above average serve.

You obviously did not watch the French Open semifinal where Federer couldnt return Del Potro's serve at all until he got tired in the 4th set. An only slightly above average serve which Federer cant even touch on clay, LOL!

Nadal has a much better than average serve and Del Potro has a better serve then him when going at 100%. So even if you dont consider his serve close to Isner it sure is heck is alot better than you seem to think, atleast the 1st serve.

So you see, it's very likely that Delpo, or a player like him could have BOTH the huge paced groundstrokes AND a huge weapon for a serve.

And that player still wouldnt even be close to dominating. You sure the margin between Del Potro at his thus far best (2009) and domination of the game is a chasm. Alot of people forget the guy wouldnt have won anything bigger than an ATP 500 if it werent for his U.S Open title.

 

[HunterST]

Murray and Djokovic own Del Potro in head to head, they own him in rankings even when Del Potro was playing his best (2009), they own him in titles, Djokovic owns him in slam results. So ok the one edge he has over Murray is a slam title which is big, but still in no way has he ever proven himself to be a better player than Djokovic or even Murray inspite of his lack of a slam title.

Do I really have to say this again? They are more experienced and mature players. They DO NOT have better strokes.

You obviously did not watch the French Open semifinal where Federer couldnt return Del Potro's serve at all until he got tired in the 4th set. An only slightly above average serve which Federer cant even touch on clay, LOL!

Nadal has a much better than average serve and Del Potro has a better serve then him when going at 100%. So even if you dont consider his serve close to Isner it sure is heck is alot better than you seem to think, atleast the 1st serve.

WHOA. Lots of problems with this section. First of all, having a great serving day does not equate to a huge serve.

Take a look at Del Potro's stats against Murray. In every match, including the 09 meetings, Murray hits double that aces that Delpo does and half of the double faults! Does that sound anywhere close to the stats you'd expect to see if Delpo had an Isner, or even Querrey like serve? Absolutely not.

Now Rafa has a much better than average serve? Are you kidding? He has one of the weakest serves in the top 10. He doesn't get many MPHs, his only saving grace is that he's a lefty and he can hit the slice out wide, which he does over, and over, and over. At least he's got that great variety! Don't get me wrong, I love Rafa, but his success stems from his ability to back his serve up, not the serve itself.

And that player still wouldnt even be close to dominating. You sure the margin between Del Potro at his thus far best (2009) and domination of the game is a chasm. Alot of people forget the guy wouldnt have won anything bigger than an ATP 500 if it werent for his U.S Open title.

How do you think Karlovic would do on tour if he had an average serve? I doubt he'd be able to get more than a couple games off of federer per set. In fact, I'd suspect Ivo would only be ranked around 1000 if his serve suddenly became average. It has catapulted him over 900 ranking spots. That's how big of a weapon it is. Karlovic has competitive sets against Federer that he would NEVER have w/o the serve. Now imagine if Del Po had that serve coupled with his ground game which can go head to head with Fed's and win. He'd be a damn formidable opponent.

 

[HunterST]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxzFlrFfUrg
can even be returned by players not used to serves that fast: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FiYe2Y1MKw&feature=related

and Fed had more aces than he at the Wimby 2009

The fact is, Sampras had what was considered one of the best serves ever and certainly the best 2nd. And his wasn't exactly the fastest serve there ever was

And to answer the title fully: just because someone has a good, fast serve does not mean it is the best. Placement>power in the pro world, and JMDP would certainly be beatable on surfaces other than USO even with Roddick's serve (esp. clay against Nadal)

oooooh sweet molasses. Way to ignore all the FACTS I provided that completely disproved your theory. But hey, you then prefaced a statement that was 100% an opinion with: "The fact is", so I guess that makes up for it. I'll post the facts that prove Roddick's serve > Feds again:

Roddick is:
2nd in Aces,
3rd in 1st serve points won,
2nd in 2nd serve points won
and (drumroll) 1st in service games won!

Where did I say ANYTHING at all about speed being more important than placement? I think Isner, Karlovic, Querrey and Roddick all have pretty damn good placement. They also have great pace. Delpo would need both to have an Isner-esk serve.

 

[Manus Domini]

oooooh sweet molasses. Way to ignore all the FACTS I provided that completely disproved your theory. But hey, you then prefaced a statement that was 100% an opinion with: "The fact is", so I guess that makes up for it. I'll post the facts that prove Roddick's serve > Feds again:

Roddick is:
2nd in Aces,
3rd in 1st serve points won,
2nd in 2nd serve points won
and (drumroll) 1st in service games won!

Where did I say ANYTHING at all about speed being more important than placement? I think Isner, Karlovic, Querrey and Roddick all have pretty damn good placement. They also have great pace. Delpo would need both to have an Isner-esk serve.

roddick has 2% more than Fed in service games won and far less matches.

you were saying?

 

[HunterST]

roddick has 2% more than Fed in service games won and far less matches.

you were saying?

So NOW you're telling me that you don't think Federer's overall game is better than Roddick's? Roddick is able to beat Federer in every service game statistic, despite being nowhere near as complete of a player. I mean really. Your argument that Federer's serve is better than Roddicks is ridiculous, comical even.

 

[nadal_slam_king]

There are several tall players who have based their games almost entirely around huge serves. Karlovic, Isner, and even Querrey use their serves as their main weapons.

However, despite the fact that he is the same height as Querrey and only around 2-3 inches shorter than Karlovic and Isner, Del Potro's game is centered around his huge ground strokes. His serve is good, but not at the level of most very tall players.

Del Potro can out hit the best guys (Fed and Nadal) from the baseline. Imagine if he had a monster serve. It would be a huge feat to break his serve, and he would have a noticeably easier time winning games on other players' serves.

If it's not Delpo, I think we will eventually see this type of player, and he will usher in a new (taller) era of tennis. As a shorter guy, I'm not looking forward to it.

Karlovic has a garbage 2nd serve. That's why Rafa leads him 3-0 h2h.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Do I really have to say this again? They are more experienced and mature players. They DO NOT have better strokes.

In your opinion. Others dont have to accept that. Djokovic and Murray are superior players to what Del Potro has ever been to this point, period. As for groundstrokes IMO both Djokovic and Murray have superior backhands, and Djokovic on a good day has just as strong a forehand. Both Djokovic and Murray have superior returns of serve too.

And Djokovic and Murray with Karlovic's serve would still be better players than Del Potro with Karlovic's serve so what is your point.

WHOA. Lots of problems with this section. First of all, having a great serving day does not equate to a huge serve.

Take a look at Del Potro's stats against Murray. In every match, including the 09 meetings, Murray hits double that aces that Delpo does and half of the double faults! Does that sound anywhere close to the stats you'd expect to see if Delpo had an Isner, or even Querrey like serve? Absolutely not.

Now Rafa has a much better than average serve? Are you kidding? He has one of the weakest serves in the top 10. He doesn't get many MPHs, his only saving grace is that he's a lefty and he can hit the slice out wide, which he does over, and over, and over. At least he's got that great variety! Don't get me wrong, I love Rafa, but his success stems from his ability to back his serve up, not the serve itself.

You are comparing everyones serve to someone like Karlovic's or something which is stupid. The vast majority of the tour would love to have Rafa's serve so obviously it is easily above average. And Del Potro's is better than that at 100%.

How do you think Karlovic would do on tour if he had an average serve? I doubt he'd be able to get more than a couple games off of federer per set. In fact, I'd suspect Ivo would only be ranked around 1000 if his serve suddenly became average. It has catapulted him over 900 ranking spots. That's how big of a weapon it is. Karlovic has competitive sets against Federer that he would NEVER have w/o the serve. Now imagine if Del Po had that serve coupled with his ground game which can go head to head with Fed's and win. He'd be a damn formidable opponent.

A player who would takes a couple games off of Federer per set (particularly in Federer's prime when he was into every match) would be a top 100 player easily.

The thing is almost none of Del Potro's losses to Federer and Nadal are even close, I think only that FO semi with Federer. So it is quite possibly the H2H would hardly change at all even with a much better serve, just maybe his wins would be a bit easier. And who cares anyway, if you give Federer and Nadal the serve of Karlovic in addition to Del Potro, for sure the H2H doesnt change any now, in fact probably even worse for Del Potro now as Federer and Nadal are more skilled returners of serve and mentally tougher in sudden death situations.

 

[wy2sl0]

roddick has 2% more than Fed in service games won and far less matches.

you were saying?

That has alot to do with Fed having a better 1-2, not so much the serve difference. I mean, does it really take a genius to see that the amount of work on Roddick's serve is far beyond anyone in the top ten? The only person I have seen that is close (but extremely inconsistent) is Verdasco, who can throw a heavy kicker at 120 mph. Sure you have Berdych and Sod hitting equal numbers to Roddick in speed, but they are hitting VERY flat to achieve it, while Andy still has a considerable amount of spin on the ball, even at 130.

Just for arguments sake, please watch this vid below, from 0:46 on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twAxtUMLbWE

2-3 feet inside the service box at 6'2" and 140 mph, and there is a little bit of kick on it.

Not close at all.

 

[NadalAgassi]

So NOW you're telling me that you don't think Federer's overall game is better than Roddick's? Roddick is able to beat Federer in every service game statistic, despite being nowhere near as complete of a player. I mean really. Your argument that Federer's serve is better than Roddicks is ridiculous, comical even.

When did Roddick ever serve 50 aces in a match as Federer did in the 2009 Wimbledon final? Roddick outplayed Federer off the ground that day and still lost to the devastating serving Federer.

And if you want to say Federer only got so many aces since Roddick is a crappy returner (which he is) I am sure Roddick has played alot of crappy returners but still never had 50 aces.

 

[HunterST]

In your opinion. Others dont have to accept that. Djokovic and Murray are superior players to what Del Potro has ever been to this point, period. As for groundstrokes IMO both Djokovic and Murray have superior backhands, and Djokovic on a good day has just as strong a forehand. Both Djokovic and Murray have superior returns of serve too.

And Djokovic and Murray with Karlovic's serve would still be better players than Del Potro with Karlovic's serve so what is your point.



You are comparing everyones serve to someone like Karlovic's or something which is stupid. The vast majority of the tour would love to have Rafa's serve so obviously it is easily above average. And Del Potro's is better than that at 100%.





A player who would takes a couple games off of Federer per set (particularly in Federer's prime when he was into every match) would be a top 100 player easily.

The thing is almost none of Del Potro's losses to Federer and Nadal are even close, I think only that FO semi with Federer. So it is quite possibly the H2H would hardly change at all even with a much better serve, just maybe his wins would be a bit easier.

Oh boy, these arguments are really falling apart. Your evidence that Rafa's serve is much above average is your completely unsubstantiated claim that "the vast majority of the tour would love to have that serve." Watch this: The vast majority of the tour would be completely miserable to have Nadal's serve. THERE I just provided an equally credible argument that disproves yours!

Bad news, brother. Nadal is 33rd in aces and 16th in first serve points won, DESPITE having probably the best ground game in the world. doesn't say much for his serve.

I said Karlovic would not be able to get MORE than a couple games per set. That means he would likely win 0 or 1 and would rarely get 2. Furthermore, I garuntee you guys well into the 400s could win more than 2 games in a set off of Federer. A college D1 player won 5 games in a set off of Federer and he's ranked outside of the top 1000 now. So, no. A player who could win 2 games off of fed would not automatically be in the top 100.

 

[HunterST]

When did Roddick ever serve 50 aces in a match as Federer did in the 2009 Wimbledon final? Roddick outplayed Federer off the ground that day and still lost to the devastating serving Federer.

And if you want to say Federer only got so many aces since Roddick is a crappy returner (which he is) I am sure Roddick has played alot of crappy returners but still never had 50 aces.

AWESOME. Another 1 day stat used to prove something about a player's overall game. Roddick has 815 aces on the year to roger 658 DESPITE having played less matches.

 

[Manus Domini]

So NOW you're telling me that you don't think Federer's overall game is better than Roddick's? Roddick is able to beat Federer in every service game statistic, despite being nowhere near as complete of a player. I mean really. Your argument that Federer's serve is better than Roddicks is ridiculous, comical even.

says who? I am saying that Fed's percent is at 89% and Roddick is at 91% because of how few matches Roddick's played. I'd rather have Federer's or Sampras' serve than Roddick's

That has alot to do with Fed having a better 1-2, not so much the serve difference. I mean, does it really take a genius to see that the amount of work on Roddick's serve is far beyond anyone in the top ten? The only person I have seen that is close (but extremely inconsistent) is Verdasco, who can throw a heavy kicker at 120 mph. Sure you have Berdych and Sod hitting equal numbers to Roddick in speed, but they are hitting VERY flat to achieve it, while Andy still has a considerable amount of spin on the ball, even at 130.

Just for arguments sake, please watch this vid below, from 0:46 on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twAxtUMLbWE

2-3 feet inside the service box at 6'2" and 140 mph, and there is a little bit of kick on it.

Not close at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-enVQiknD2U and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkxDcA4qnsA

 

[HunterST]

says who? I am saying that Fed's percent is at 89% and Roddick is at 91% because of how few matches Roddick's played. I'd rather have Federer's or Sampras' serve than Roddick's



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-enVQiknD2U and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkxDcA4qnsA

May I ask how old you are? Posting a video of a good serve by Federer does absolutely nothing to prove your point.

Let me break this down for you. Federer's ground strokes, net game, and transition game are much better than those of Roddick. However, Roddick's serve is such a weapon that he still wins more service games than Federer. He gets more aces, has a better first serve percentage, saves more break points, and lead Federer in EVERY statistic.

Now, you're going to need to do more than say "says who?" or "I'd rather have Federer's serve than Roddicks" to rebut these facts. Oh, and videos that you think are cool wont do it either.

One more question, where do you get the idea that Federer's serve has better placement or more spin? You've got absolutely no evidence to support that. In fact, there have been analyses that show Roddick produces the most spin heavy ball. And if Federer's placement is so much greater than Roddicks, then why does Roddick have almost 200 more aces than Federer while he's played in around 15 less matches?

Get real. You have absolutely no leg to stand on.

 

[NadalAgassi]

This thread is a joke. It is nothing more than a weak attempt to build up some GOAT game by "1 title above a Masters 500" Del Potro which clearly was never even close to existing. If Del Potro would be nearly unbeatable with Karlovic's serve than about 10 guys would be too. And the current Del Potro wouldnt be close to unbeatable with any serve anyway, time will tell if he was a one year wonder (and not that big a wonder at that).