10 versus 10

[Hitman]

Both Nadal and Djokovic, the two greatest masters series players have won exactly 10 masters title each on their least preferred surface, which is an incredible achievement as most players will never win 10 masters on their fav surfaces, but which one looks the better accomplishment between the two if at all there is one that is better.

Nadal
3 Indian Wells titles
5 Canada titles
1 Cincinnati title
1 Madrid Indoor title

He has a 4th IW final, 5 Miami finals, 1 Paris Indoors final, 2 Shanghai finals Overall, 19 finals, including making the final of all 9 slots on the masters tour. Has more Canada titles than any active player. Won Canada and Cincinnati back to back.

Djokovic
2 Monte Carlo titles
3 Madrid titles
5 Rome titles

He has 2 more MC finals, 5 Rome finals. Overall, 17 finals, two less than Nadal. Only Nadal has won more Rome titles in tennis history. Multiple titles at all three clay masters, has won Madrid and Rome back to back.

So, how do you see it? Rafa, Novak or dead even?

 

[Nadal_Django]

Nadal have never won Paris, Shanghai, Miami and the ATP Finals, while Djokovic won every clay big tournament in the calendar, i don't think this is a fair comparison tbh.

 

[joekapa]

Of course Djokovic because of the spread, and the fact that he is the only player to have won all of the masters.......twice.

 

[safinmafia]

Nadal have never won Paris, Shanghai, Miami and the ATP Finals, while Djokovic won every clay big tournament in the calendar, i don't think this is a fair comparison tbh.

It's not meant to be fair. It's meant to elevate Djokovic and downgrade Nadal.

 

[Hitman]

Nadal have never won Paris, Shanghai, Miami and the ATP Finals, while Djokovic won every clay big tournament in the calendar, i don't think this is a fair comparison tbh.

The argument for Nadal though is, hard court has overall tougher competition and he has to win 6 different ones compared to Djokovic needing to win 3. Nadal has HC masters at four different places though.

 

[Hitman]

It's not meant to be fair. It's meant to elevate Djokovic and downgrade Nadal.

Elevate Djokovic and downgrade Nadal by showing their titles? OK.

 

[Nadal_Django]

It's not meant to be fair. It's meant to elevate Djokovic and downgrade Nadal.

Why you saying that. Nadal is clearly better than Djokovic in winning specific events in the Calendar multiple times. Djokovic don't have 10+ titles at specific Masters event for example, Nadal does.

 

[Hitman]

Of course Djokovic because of the spread, and the fact that he is the only player to have won all of the masters.......twice.

Djokovic has the more better spread, but he needs only 3 to complete the set, Nadal needs 6.

 

[aldeayeah]

Nadal have never won Paris, Shanghai, Miami and the ATP Finals, while Djokovic won every clay big tournament in the calendar, i don't think this is a fair comparison tbh.

You're right. It could only be a fair comparison if clay and hard courts had equal presence on the tour

 

[junior74]

"Taking down The Bull on clay is the toughest task in tennis, hands down"

Works in every debate

 

[Nadal_Django]

You're right. It could only be a fair comparison if clay and hard courts had equal presence on the tour

The current Calendar has this same setup for more than 30 years now, maybe even longer. Everyone from the 80s and 90s generations knew "the rules" before even started to play tennis. Either your train in your youth accordingly and hone your skills based on the well known tennis calendar, or adapt and adjust your game later in your career. Either that or specialise for a specific conditions and concentrate for a specific minor part of the season. There's no other way around.

 

[Hitman]

"Taking down The Bull on clay is the toughest task in tennis, hands down"

Works in every debate

If you want to bring the H2H against each other on their worst surface,

Nadal has 2 wins
Indian Wells 2007
Montreal 2013

Djokovic has 6 wins
Monte Carlo 2013, 2015
Madrid 2011
Rome 2011, 2014, 2016

 

[junior74]

If you want to bring the H2H against each other on their worst surface,

Nadal has 2 wins
Indian Wells 2007
Montreal 2013

Djokovic has 6 wins
Monte Carlo 2013, 2015
Madrid 2011
Rome 2011, 2014, 2016

Winning RG and clay masters has been difficult on Nadal's watch. On the other hand, competition is generally a lot tougher on HC.

 

[Hitman]

Winning RG and clay masters has been difficult on Nadal's watch. On the other hand, competition is generally a lot tougher on HC.

Yes. This is true.

 

[safinmafia]

Why you saying that. Nadal is clearly better than Djokovic in winning specific events in the Calendar multiple times. Djokovic don't have 10+ titles at specific Masters event for example, Nadal does.

Indeed. But I don't think that outcome is the desired one here.

 

[Red Rick]

The argument for Nadal though is, hard court has overall tougher competition and he has to win 6 different ones compared to Djokovic needing to win 3. Nadal has HC masters at four different places though.

Nadal didn't have to play Nadal on clay. 6 vs 3 masters.

It's no comparison.

Nadal is 5th in HC M1000, behind even Agassi and Murray.

Djokovic is 2nd in clay 1000s of all time. Behind only Nadal

 

[teotjunk]

Given that there are double the number of hard court masters to clay masters, it should be Novak as Nadal would have to win 20 masters on hard to be equal to Novak on clay

 

[nolefam_2024]

Djokovic is flat out better tennis player than Nadal.

 

[safinmafia]

Djokovic is flat out better tennis player than Nadal.

And thus the desired outcome of the thread is summarised by post 18.

 

[safinmafia]

I don't have anything personal against the OP. But, I do have an issue with clearly biased posters with solid favorites also posing as impartial discussion starters. I can't be the only one.
Either you are a fan boy or a neutral interested in honest debate. This is not really a black and white area. I think it gets called out in other debating areas of life, too.

 

[NoleFam]

10/74 for Nadal
10/40 for Djokovic

Probably not that close of a comparison when broken down.

 

[nolefam_2024]

10/74 for Nadal
10/40 for Djokovic

Probably not that close of a comparison when broken down.

True. Djokovic is way more versatile than clay Nadal. We are not in clay season, currently it's indoors and Nadal has 0 wins in YEC

 

[NoleFam]

True. Djokovic is way more versatile than clay Nadal. We are not in clay season, currently it's indoors and Nadal has 0 wins in YEC

Nadal is really good on outdoor hardcourt (won Canada 5 times and swept the USO hardcourt season on 2013) but Djokovic's strike right on clay in consolidating big titles is on a different level.

 

[Deleted member 748597]

I don't have anything personal against the OP. But, I do have an issue with clearly biased posters with solid favorites also posing as impartial discussion starters. I can't be the only one.
Either you are a fan boy or a neutral interested in honest debate. This is not really a black and white area. I think it gets called out in other debating areas of life, too.

Welcome back.

 

[safinmafia]

Welcome back.

 

[Hitman]

10/74 for Nadal
10/40 for Djokovic

Probably not that close of a comparison when broken down.

Interesting stat, so Novak has won 1 out of every 4 he played? Not bad at all

 

[NoleFam]

Interesting stat, so Novak has won 1 out of every 4 he played? Not bad at all

Yea pretty much 25% strike rate in clay Masters.

 

[Hitman]

Yea pretty much 25% strike rate in clay Masters.

First time I heard that. Impressive.

 

[RG GOD]

Djokovic didn't win Hamburg or Madrid indoor, Nadal did.
So Djokovic hasn't won all the masters he has played.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Welcome back.

Exactly lol

 

[nolefam_2024]

Its 10 vs 11 and also OP showing some more nuance it would be like this

Nadal wins 10 in 77 attempts so 13% win rate
Even Fed won 6 in 45 attempts on clay so 13.3% win rate higher than Nadal

Djokovic wins 11 in 47 attempts 23.4% win rate. Far exceeds both. And this doesn't even include ATP finals.

 

[nolefam_2024]

In 11 titles of Djokovic vs 10 of Nadal
@NoleFam
Djokovic has 56.1% total pts won, 23 top 10 wins and 12 top 5 wins
Nadal has 54.9% total pts won, just 14 top 10 wins and just 5 top 5 wins

Nadal has unusual lack of top competition. Meaning his titles are soft when he won.

 

[Rosstour]

Nadal has won Masters on grass?

 

[nolefam_2024]

In last few hours despite zero evidence, 5 nadal fans voted for him.
If this is not a cult, I don't know what is.

 

[Neptune]

HC masters:
Nole 29 (H2H 10-2 vs Rafa, 36-12 vs top5, 70-22 vs top10)
Rafa 10 (H2H 2-10 vs Nole, 9-18 vs top5, 30-30 vs top10)
More titles than Top 5 wins in hard court Masters (10:9)—only Rafa, (oops, Fed too 22:19)

CC masters:
Nole 11 (H2H 6-11 vs Rafa, 18-15 vs top5, 34-22 vs top10)
Rafa 26 (H2H 11-6 vs Nole, 31-10 vs top5, 54-19 vs top10)

 

[nolefam_2024]

HC masters:
Nole 29 (H2H 10-2 vs Rafa, 36-12 vs top5, 70-22 vs top10)
Rafa 10 (H2H 2-10 vs Nole, 9-18 vs top5, 30-30 vs top10)
More titles than Top 5 wins in hard court Masters (10:9)—only Rafa, lol.

CC masters:
Nole 11 (H2H 6-11 vs Rafa, 18-15 vs top5, 34-22 vs top10)
Rafa 26 (H2H 11-6 vs Nole, 31-10 vs top5, 54-19 vs top10)

9-18 is ok. but its not real indicator
He has only 5 top 5 wins in 10 masters wins.

Nole has 12 top 5 wins in 11 masters wins.

5 vs 12 its not even close.

5 wins vs Nadal as top 5, 2 vs Murray as top 5, 1 vs Fed as top 5, 1 vs soderling as top 5, 1 vs Thiem as top 5 and 1 vs Tsitsipas as top 5.
Together this group has 25 finals of RG and 15 wins

2 wins vs Roger, 1 wins vs Nole as top 5, 1 vs Murray and 1 vs Andy Roddick as top 5 for Nadal. That's all for Nadal.

 

[nolefam_2024]

bro Djokovic has as many Nadal wins in his clay masters wins as top 5, as Nadal has overall top 5 in his wins.

 

[NoleFam]

In 11 titles of Djokovic vs 10 of Nadal
@NoleFam
Djokovic has 56.1% total pts won, 23 top 10 wins and 12 top 5 wins
Nadal has 54.9% total pts won, just 14 top 10 wins and just 5 top 5 wins

Nadal has unusual lack of top competition. Meaning his titles are soft when he won.

I'm actually surprised at that because you usually on average run into the top players more often in hardcourt Masters.

 

[nolefam_2024]

I'm actually surprised at that because you usually on average run into the top players more often in hardcourt Masters.

Nadal has actually overperformed on HC due to weaker competition. Its weak historically. He has 6 slams on it, can you imagine. Total 5 top 5 wins in 6 slams.

Djokovic has 5 top 5 wins in just 3 RG titles.

So Nadal has 10 top 5 wins in 10 masters + 6 slams

 

[Djokodalerer31]

Additionally Djokovic has credentials of beating Nadal in the finals of 4 of those 11 clay court masters wins, 3 times on EACH of those three different masters and one additional time in Rome. Nadal on another hand beat Novak only once in the final back in 2007 in Indian Wells, where Djokovic was such a baby, he wasn't even a proper challenger yet...it's almost identical situation as Federer wins against Novak in any slam finals ever since 2007...

 

[nolefam_2024]

Additionally Djokovic has credentials of beating Nadal in the finals of 4 of those 11 clay court masters wins, 3 times on EACH of those three different masters and one additional time in Rome. Nadal on another hand beat Novak only once in the final back in 2007 in Indian Wells, where Djokovic was such a baby, he wasn't even a proper challenger yet...it's almost identical situation as Federer wins against Novak in any slam finals ever since 2007...

Its as clear as daylight. Nadal fans came to this board on back of dominating Fed, but they got a huge shock in Djokovic and it was not even close post 2010.

 

[NoleFam]

Nadal has actually overperformed on HC due to weaker competition. Its weak historically. He has 6 slams on it, can you imagine. Total 5 top 5 wins in 6 slams.

Djokovic has 5 top 5 wins in just 3 RG titles.

So Nadal has 10 top 5 wins in 10 masters + 6 slams

Nadal has 8 total top 5 wins in hardcourt Slams across his entire career whereas Djokovic has 9 at just RG. So yes it is surprising. However, Nadal was great at capitalizing when the draw would open up and he almost always was able to take advantage in hardcourt Slams when that happened, except 2014 AO.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Nadal has 8 total top 5 wins in hardcourt Slams across his entire career whereas Djokovic has 9 at just RG. So yes it is surprising. However, Nadal was great at capitalizing when the draw would open up and he almost always was able to take advantage in hardcourt Slams when that happened, except 2014 AO.

No no
No no

I mean top 5 wins as part of your slam winning runs. If he wins a top 5 match and lost in final, I am not counting it.

This way shows how strong their runs are.

Nadal 5 top 5 in 6 hard court slam wins
Nole 5 in just 3 rg

 

[NoleFam]

No no
No no

I mean top 5 wins as part of your slam winning runs. If he wins a top 5 match and lost in final, I am not counting it.

This way shows how strong their runs are.

Nadal 5 top 5 in 6 hard court slam wins
Nole 5 in just 3 rg

I know what you meant; I'm just saying in total, he has 8 at AO and USO combined across his entire career, including the tournaments he didn't win.