Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by david aames, Jun 11, 2004.
The sensors are juiced! He gonna need more than speed to beat federer though
I do wonder how accurate these speed measurements are, it must have a tolerance margin, no? So if that would be -2 / +2 miles he might have actually served 151 or even 155...
It has been acknowledged that the radar guns used at Davis Cup & Queens are different than the guns used everywhere else. Of course the makers of the gun claim its the most accurate method of measurement. If that's the case then imagine how fast Tanner, Leconte, Becker, Sampras etc were really serving. Its impressive that Roddick was able to set the record 3 times in one year, but the ATP needs to really standardize the same gun for use at all events.
Davis Cup speed guns are notoriously juiced but not sure about this one. Would be interesting to see how fast Srichaphan served compared to usual.
On the BBC they showed us the speed gun and it is officially the most accurate speed gun to date, so I hate to say it but that is most likely the real speed.
Somebody better beat it quick!!
I don't know about Queens this year, but at last year's Queens everyone was serving big. I saw the Roddick-Agassi SF (where Andy hit the then record 149), Andre was regularly serving in the 120's. I'm pretty sure I read during the DC matches this year that the gun was the same they used at Queens'.
The gun may be the most acurrate, but it proves that every big sever of the past was serving bigger than we thought they were.
Andy would have the record with any gun, but they should decide on one gun, these numbers are getting ridiculous. He'll probably hit 160 at the next David Cup tie.
Ultimately, these records are meaningless. But my favorite 'record' serve was at the '97 US Open Final. Rusedski saved a match point with a then record 146.
You're quite correct Kevin. The Queens club radar is similar to the DC radar which is different than the regular atp radar. The DC and Queens radar clocks everyone high. It appears to be roughly 10mph faster...
You're also quite correct in saying big servers from the past would clock higher on this radar. I to am intriqued by Tanner, many now say Tanner was actually serving 100mph or so, but Vic Braden told me he clocked Tanner in the 130's with a non graphite racquet repeatedly....Braden said this was not just with radar but with computer analysis so in his words it was definitely accurate....and of course Tanner clocked 135 in 1990 on the senior tour....it's intriquing that in his prime he may have gone as fast or faster than any of the guys today....
I remember hearing that Tanner was still hitting over 130 in the seniors, that's amazing! (too bad he's had so many 'financial' troubles post tennis career)
Who do you think was the biggest server of the 80s(in terms of mph)? Leconte seemed to get in the 130 frequently.
Boy, does it suck when "no talent" Roddick keeps breaking his own serve record whereas all the uber-talented players ranked lower than him can't get within ten miles of it.
free martha, please do us all a favor and shut up.
plz tell me why every time "fast serving" roddick plays federer, he always gets stomped?
o wow. a big serve. it takes more than a serve to dominate the game.
Roddick has a fast serve and a pretty good forehand but thats it. What mostly keeps him from being better is his volleying. I think he has a good chance to make the quarter finals in Wimbledon this time but he might not go farther than that because of his volleying. Grass is a surface where people need to be able to use their serve and volleying skills effectively.
you try telling Goran Ivanisevic that!
The tennis gods arent smiling they're wondering why Roddick can only break records at DC and at Queens
Yes, that year he hit 135, the fastest serve on the main tour was 134 by Marc Rosset. It is really too bad about his "troubles" but I guess the only person he can really blame is the guy in the mirror...:-(
By the way if you ever have the chance to see Tanner serve, don't miss it! On video, it just looks odd, like a quick little simple motion...like someone pitching....but in real life, it's the most breathtaking thing I've ever seen in tennis. Absolute athletic perfection. What flashed through my mind watching it is that if you could design a robot to be a perfect serving machine....that's what it would look like. Inhuman racquet head speed (makes Goran's wind up look like slow motion), combined with an absolute perfect toss. You get an overall impression of just a couple whirling racquet circles, while the ball rises to an exact spot at the moment Tanner unwinds his whole body.
How suprised I am to see you pick Leconte! I never see him mentioned as a big server, yet I always thought his motion was beautiful and speed on the 1st serve right up there. With low toss, quick motion and lefty, he was a bit like Tanner! I recall Leconte had one of the fastest serves of the USO 92, at 125mph.
But that's the problem with the 80's....radar wasn't all that common....even if today's radar isn't standardized...it allows us to get some general ideas....
Becker would have to be considered a contender....we know he can go into the low 130's.
Slobodon Zivojinivic had a tremendous serve sort of a Goran 1.0
Yannick Noah was always a personal pick of mine as a great power server. He could blast a flat serve and had one of my top 5 slices of all time. Plus his motion was beautiful. Maybe one day I'll post a clip I digitized of Yannick hitting a huge ace.
Steve Denton was reputedly clocked at 138mph. He certainly was powerful.
Kevin Curren had one of the most effective serves in the world when on...on paper he had been serving better than Becker when they met in the Wimbledon final(until the final where all parts of Curren's game sputtered) acing Connors 33 times and Mcenroe 25? But he himself admitted that others served harder than he does including specifically Denton and Tanner. I did notice that in the USO 92, Curren kept pace in his match against Becker, both were generally serving flat in the 110-120mph range....neither looked to be trying for really big serves though...
A few other lesser known contenders from 80's would be David Pate, John Sadri, Scott Warner, Chip Hooper, Eric Korita...
Leconte's serve just seemed fast to me. Curren as well. Haven't seen much of Tanner, will definitely keep an eye out for his old matches on ****(considering he's in jail, don't know if I'll get to see him live anytime soon)
I've always been a fan of the lower toss/quick release serves, (often think of Krajicek when I serve) helps keep the serve simple for a mere mortal like myself.
what did you think of Johan Kriek? Can't remember how he served, but have heard good things about his motion.
Please tell me why the god-gifted, brilliant, perfect, sublime, best-player-ever Roger Federer almost always get his ass stomped by the lower-ranking never-gonna-win-a-slam Tim Henman?
Well, look who boarded the Buy a Clue Bus! Nobody becomes the No. 1 player in the world based on his serve alone. Just ask Mark Philippoussis.
Conversely, a great tennis player is nothing without his serve.
Now p!ss off, child, and go color a comic book.
Right on, Free_Martha. It seems this board makes Federer out to be the second coming of Christ and the moment any sort of praise goes out to Roddick or other players that this community "loves to hate", bang- "shut up," or "he sucks" or even "he's nothing without his serve." Do me a favor and just think for a second- Roddick is number 2 in the world, and if your "uber talented" Safin and your "Wonderful" Nalbandian can crush him, why the hell don't they? "Oh, Roddick didn't actually win that Semi-Final!" or "those two volleys in the first set in that 2nd round Miami match were pure luck!" Fact is Roddick has much more than y'all give him- simple as that. Oh, and Free_Martha, don't forget about Nalbandian's record against Federer! Man, I hope Federer gets romped in the early rounds of Wimby not because I don't like him, but because it'd shut you all up, already!
I thought the last person Henman stomped past was Andy instead of Roger in IW, on hardcourt Andy's favourite surface.
heh, heh, yep, that's why I said IF You ever get the chance ;-) I may be the only guy getting Roscoe Tanner updates from google....lol...like I said, on tape it's unusual looking....in person...it's a force of nature....
There have been a handful of players who hit the ball at the peak and many many more who hit JUST after the peak (like Krajicek) Roscoe hit it so soon after it peaked, it appeared to still be rising. Curren was one of the very very few who actually hit on the rise.
The low toss has benefits and drawbacks but for somebody who can master it, I think the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks. Wind resistance, disguise, less time for opponent, insures the rest of the movement does not have long pauses, easier to time motionless ball....etc.
As for Kriek....geez you really know your tennis. As a matter of fact a secondary benefit of my catching Rosooe on the seniors tour was that I also got to see Kriek who I also was watching specifically for serve. He did not disappoint as he hit one of the hardest serves of the night which resulted in one of the hardest returns of the night from Connors! His motion didn't particularly impress me....but it was good...seemed simple and powerful. I certainly believe he was one of the fastest servers for his size! He was a short guy, as a matter of fact Michael Chang specifically pointed to Kriek as an inspiration for short people wanting to develop a hard serve....he would know as he played Kriek early in his career! I know Kriek also hit quite a few aces for such a short guy.
By the way, a lesser known player from the recent past, Olivier Delaitre reminds me of these guys as he had a low toss, quick motion and big power for a guy listed as 5'8(I really think this was generous....). I have a couple matches of his on tape where he tops out around 120mph and actually overpowers Edberg for a while at the USO. He actually hit edberg in the head with a "passing" shot from 10 feet behind baseline....you've got to hit pretty hard to do that!
Well he did it again twice during his match today!!
I hate the man but you got to give him credit for doing that consistently.
Yes, Nalbandian is another player Federer has to keep an eye on.
And I actually like Roger Federer---I think he's an excellent player. But the dolts around here with their constant mooing and baying over him is enough to make me wanna root for the other guy.
And this whole business about Roddick being all serve and nothing else is just utter stupidity. The kid's got game. It's not as beautiful as Federer's but it works and that's all that matters. (did you notice how much he actually served and volleyed during his match with Hewitt today?) I admire the fact that he's gutsy, takes his chances, and is willing to learn and improve his game.
:roll: Another '**** rides the short bus. Thanks for your contribution.
Of course Roddick isn't just all serve. You don't get to number 1 in the world even for a short period if u're all serve (see Rusedski). Roddick has a good bordering on great forehand and an above average backhand compared to your run of the mill journeyman pro.
However it is an irrefutable fact that his serve is a major part of his game. Take his serve away and Fed/Ferrero/Coria/Nalbandian/Hewitt probably have better game. That is being stupid though.. the serve in tennis is a huge part of the game. Becker had it.. so did Sampras as well. And so what if Roddick is accused of being one dimensional at times. Hell I wish I had a one dimensional game as good as his (if u believe that's all he's got).
As to who we as individuals prefer.. well thank god there's a choice. Would u rather it was like women's tennis? We're into the next generation of stars and for myself I look forward to a long struggle between Fed/A-Rod/JC/Coria/Nalby/Safin/Nadal. Tennis needs all of them.
Well, seeing as how the 2 most important shots in tennis are the serve, and return of serve, it certainly doesn't hurt to serve in the 150's.
In the men's game, i think the serve is even slightly more important than the return.
Yeah but can he place the serve? Was that big serve returned? Notice that Federer is just as effective as Roddick serving with a lot less pace. the reason? Placement. Roddick can kill the ball but it is still often returned due to poor placement.
In response to Datacipher. I agree, anyone who wants a good serve should watch Tanner. If anyone wants to see his serve in slow motion, Vic Braiden has an old video on the serve, and he uses Tanner as his model for the toss. They also show you how someone can serve nearly 100mph on their knees, given the proper motion. Tanner's serve was what I describe as one working unit, no pieces existed to it, which led to conserved energy until impact.
By the way, what do you think some of the disadvantages of a lower toss are? The only thing I see is that it is not the prettiest in most peoples opinion, so they are reluctant to adopt it.
rafael-"Yeah but can he place the serve?"
I agree completely. The reason Goran had so man aces was because his opponents didn't know what end of the box the ball was going to land in. Roddick only has part of the recipe, as of now.
Goran's awkward movement caused his injury, but he served oh SO WELL!! He can't succeed, even on grass anymore.
In a few years, let the Corias, Federers, Safins and Hewitts gain some weight and see how wonderful and successful they'll be.
I really have a hard time seeing your point about Roddick's serve placement. When I think of placement, I think of Roddick's serving in the US Open Final, primarily. He was hitting each and every line. The reason people get a racquet on his serve isn't the placement, I think...it's because they can generally read Roddick's toss and know more or less where the serve is gonna go. But reading it is just part of the story- if the serve is THAT big, hell, I don't care if you're the best returner in the game, you've got a really small chance of being on the offensive in the point OR even getting the ball back.
The above quote is by Dranguyengon. And I just want to mention that Andy made the semis last year, where he was stopped by Fed. But in his run, he beat Rusedski and Bjorkman, who are known to be volleyers (particularly Jonas).
So even with suspect volleying skills, he already has gotten beyond the quarters at Wimbly.
And remember that Hewitt won Wimbly a few years ago, and he isn't exactly known for his volleying skills. Nor is the guy who reached that final -- David Nalbandian! :wink:
As for the radar gun things, they are always suspect. No doubt Andy hits his serve harder than anyone on Tour right now. He beat Rusedski's record at Indian Wells, which was deemed suspect as well. But again, Andy's got the most serve power in the game right now.
But a big serve doesn't mean you'll win the tourney. We've seen that before from other big servers -- such as Rusedski and Philippoussis. Have to have a bit more than that. Although a big serve does help. Just as great movement and a great return of serve helps other players who don't have big serves.
Andre Agassi said a long time ago -- you can't expect any player to have the whole package. There will always be strengths and weaknesses. What matters is what players do with their strengths and weaknesses.
Andy does what he can with his strengths, and tries to work on his weaknesses. Which is what all players strive to do. Andy is no different.
Roddick had the most aces last year (989) and is currently leading with the most aces this year (400+something).
He also served that 153-mph ace at Queen's out wide...against the wind. :shock:
Yes Roddick had most number of aces last year, but I believe there were players who had more number of aces average per match, eg Mark P and Arthurs.
But one important thing to note is with as many aces he's able to hit, he wasn't anywhere on the top10 list of most no. of DF I remember. So it is obvious he has a very effective serve and is consistent with it. That is ultimately what makes him so lethal.
Roddick's main weapon is in fact his second serve imo. By being able to bomb his second at 125 mph average at very high percentage, he allows himself the chance to really swing at the first ball. Most guys barely serve as big with their first ball as Roddick with his second, and he hits the big kicker too.
Kobble, a great video to see more of the Tanner serve is "practice with the pros"...a very old vic braden video in which the entire 10 min. serve sequence is devoted to Tanner.
I actually don't think there are any disadvantages to the low toss but with the catch "for those who can master it". The problem is that this is not the motion most people use(and is much differnet than the current teaching trends)....as a result, sometimes it takes time to develop it....and involves changes in rhythm, timing, arm and body motion....many people do not want to put in the time to do this big a change...which is fine...I work with them individually based on what they have, where they want to go...how much effort they are willing to put in...
It is often said a low toss can lead to a cramped motion if the toss is to low...but in reality in my experience, this pretty much never happens...it is almost impossible for most people to toss too low...and in fact on the odd occasion when a toss is too low it usually is not a deal breaker for that serve anyway....some types of serve can even benefit from it...
On the other hand I do find some people rush their motion too much with a low toss....to make the low toss work well, it is best to have an economical, natural motion...then you will not be rushed...in fact even the way you think about the serve changes....
if you have a long motion with staggered arms(a misguided trend I believe) and you must rush...then you are better off with a higher toss as rushing is a good way to serve badly... ha ha
Agree on Ivanisevic...he didn't have the fastest serve but it remains the most effective 1st serve of all time IMO because of the disguise, and ability to hit his spots over and over...I do put Roddick in my top 5 second serves(in fact off the top of my head I would only put Sampras ahead) and top 10 first serves...plus he seems to be getting better!
I notice you are trying to develop a Tannerish motion...I myself used to use a motion modelled in part off Tanner and I have helped a few students develop serves like this...if you like I will discuss it with you in private email.
Bump for some great stuff!
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