1936 wembley

[krosero]

As you all know there has been a long-running debate about whether the Wembley Pro championships of '36 were ever held. Ray Bowers has long argued that Wembley did not take place that year. The only score or result available for the '36 Wembley is for the final: it's given as Vines d. Nusslein 6-4, 6-4, 6-2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wembley_Professional_Championships_Draws

I have now enough information to show that Vines could not have attended the tournament, even if it was held. I've documented his whereabouts on enough dates to show that he wasn't in Europe that year.

Vines played a few golf tournaments in California, as I found in the Los Angeles Times, during the months when presumably he would have made a trip to Wembley.

I will post the documentation in separate posts. A little background first on how I came to do this.

I had not intended to document Vines' whereabouts for an entire season; it didn't even occur to me until recently that this was possible. But recently I was exchanging some emails with BobbyOne (with whom I'm still in touch regularly). In a blur of topics that we discussed, Wembley '36 came up in passing. So, just to see what would happen, I Googled the terms Vines Wembley July 1936, or something similar.

This piece turned up in the Chicago Tribune, which has recently placed its archives online: http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1936/07/29/page/19/article/talking-it-over

Vines declined to go to England, per this piece, in late July.

That's when I realized that I needed only to run some searches in July and August, to find where he was -- since I already knew where he was the rest of the year. I had been gradually putting together a list of the matches that Vines and Tilden played in the autumn during their tour of Japan, China and the Philippines. And I knew that Vines attended Forest Hills in September, because I'd been studying Budge's memoir, in which Don mentions practicing with Elly on the grounds during his run to the final; I had already learned a lot about Elly's travels, while searching for more about that practice session.

To find Vines in July and August, I looked in the Los Angeles Times, and sure enough they reported his scores in various local golf tournaments.

I'll put the details in a separate post, but in summary form, this is what I have for Vines' travels in '36:

- Vines' tour of the U.S. against Stoefen ended on June 7 in Staten Island.
- On June 19 the LA Times reported that Vines was home and that he would tour Japan later in the year “rather than defend his professional title in England.”
- On July 29 the Chicago Tribune reported that Vines, from Pasadena, had spoken to Tilden in London by telephone and had declined to go to England for a Wembley tournament.
- In late July and early August Vines participated in some golf tournaments in California, his scores reported in the Los Angeles Times.
- On Aug. 20 Vines left for New York to attend the nationals at Forest Hills, which ran from Sept. 3-12. He provided commentary of the matches in print and on radio. And he practiced on the grounds with Don Budge and Fred Perry.
- After an exo with Vincent Richards in Brooklyn on Sept. 13, Vines returned to California and sailed for Japan on Sept. 18.
- Vines and Tilden returned from their tour of the Far East on December 10, disembarking in San Francisco.
- Late in December Vines was reported practicing with Fred Perry in California, ahead of their upcoming tour. He also practiced with Budge, Riggs, Shields and Hunt.

Here I must tip my hat to Ray Bowers, who researched the pro tours of the 1930s in great detail and stated definitively that Wembley '36 never took place. From his 1936 chapter, at http://www.tennisserver.com/lines/lines_04_07_25.html

LATE SUMMER

There would be no 1936 indoor pro tournament at either Wembley or Paris, although contrary information is wrongly given in other books. Tilden in late July tried to change the minds of the Wembley promoters, who believed that without Vines the tournament would lose money. Writer Clifford Webb, who described these discussions in London Daily Herald, himself disagreed with the promoters, arguing that Nusslein "is the most entertaining thing in tennis." Bill telephoned Elly in California and Vines promised to reconsider his plans, but the event was lost. Thus Vines and Nusslein never faced each other during the year.​

 

[krosero]

Just a little bit about travel in 1936. You often read about tennis champions in this time period traveling aboard famous liners like the Queen Mary and the Normandie. The latter ship, for example, brought Tilden from Europe to New York, just in time for the '36 Nationals at Forest Hills. The Normandie and the Queen Mary happened to be engaged in a contest for fastest transatlantic crossing, which was about 4 days at this time.

The fastest crossing of the Pacific was around 10 days, though 15 days was more typical.

The United States was usually crossed on train, though Elly went home at the end of the Stoefen tour by automobile, motoring with his wife Verle back to California.

The fastest trains could cross the United States in 48 hours -- and here again, the big-name tennis champions boarded famous engines like the Super Chief, known as the "Train of the Stars": http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/social-history/2010/the-super-chief-the-train-of-the-stars

Budge recalled this train by name even 30 years later in his memoir. He said that it took him to a Vines/Perry match in Chicago where he had duties as umpire. There's no reason to doubt that he did take that train to Chicago, though the date he gave was about a year and a half too early -- but that's another topic.

Point here is -- and those who have researched this time period know -- that the movements of famous tennis players were reported in detail in the daily newspapers: where they went, where they came from, what transportation they chose, who they boarded with, what time they were expected to dock, etc.

 

[elegos7]

Hi Krosero,

Thanks for this confirmation.

You mention you have been putting together a list of the matches that Vines and Tilden played in the autumn of 1936 during their tour of Japan, China and the Philippines.

Do you plan to show us those results in a thread?

 

[krosero]

LA Times edition of June 12:

Vines Expected Home June 19

PASADENA, June 11.—Motoring west with his wife, H. Ellsworth Vines, Pasadena’s noted professional tennis king, is scheduled to arrive at his home here on June 19, relatives disclosed today.

Vines ended his annual pro tennis tour in the East last Sunday. His future plans are indefinite. However, it is believed that he will again concentrate on golf, a game he is most desirous of mastering. Although he has shot several rounds in the low 70’s, Vines is dissatisfied by his inconsistency on the links.​

LA Times edition of June 19:

Vines Returns From Pro Tour

Ellsworth Vines, the world’s professional tennis champion, returned to his home in Pasadena yesterday after a six-month eastern tour… The tall Pasadena lad will leave for Japan this summer with Bill Tilden rather than defend his professional title in England.​

Bakersfield Californian:

PASADENA, June 19. (A.P.)—Ellsworth Vines informed his hometown today that he will be away this summer—touring Japan with big Bill Tilden.

The young professional tennis star said he scheduled the trip to the orient in preference to defending his world pro title in England. A series of exhibition matches with Vincent Richards in New York will precede the jaunt.​

LA Times edition of July 15:

PASADENA, July 14.—Only a few years back Ellsworth Vines, Pasadena’s noted tennis champion, was playing and winning title in the Crown City’s own net tournament.

Thursday night [July 16] before Pasadena fans Vines, now recognized as the world’s champion, will award trophies to the respective champions in this year’s city senior, veterans and junior tournaments.​

LA Times edition of July 21:

MCHALE, VINES PAIRED IN HOLLYWOOD TOURNEY

Jim McHale, San Gabriel’s rising young star, and Ellsworth Vines will form one of the featured twosomes in the Hollywood invitational which opens tomorrow with qualifying.​

Chicago Tribune on July 29, at http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1936/07/29/page/19/article/talking-it-over

TALKING IT OVER

BY ARCH WARD.

[Copyright: 1936: By The Chicago Tribune.]

BILL TILDEN telephoned Ellsworth Vines in Pasadena from London the other night in an attempt to persuade him to compete in the world’s professional tennis championships at Wembley, England, which Vines won last year. . . Vines declined because he is scheduled to play Vincent Richards in a series of exhibition matches next month.... Tilden and Vines will sail for Japan in September to make several appearances under the auspices of a Japanese newspaper... The two pros will receive 50 per cent of the gross receipts at their matches. . .​

LA Times edition of July 31:

Red-hot golfers at Palos Verdes yesterday were as scarce as sure-thing tips on the horse races…

“ELLY” SET BACK

Ellsworth Vines, the former amateur tennis king, now a pro, saw his aspirations to play in the nationals this year take a setback with an 81. Brother Ed had an 80.​

LA Times edition of Aug. 2:

Jack Gage of Santa Barbara, the medalist, and a dark horse from Flintridge named Bill McCallum will be the finalists in the Palos Verdes invitation golf tourney this morning. They tossed the opposition around and about in two successful rounds yesterday and earned the right to battle for the championship mug over another eighteen holes…

In the first flight Frank Zinzer of California C. C. won his way into the finals by downing Ellsworth Vines, former amateur tennis king, now a pro, 1 up on the 19th, after Vines had won by the same score from Leonard Srere in the morning….​

LA Times edition of Aug. 10:

LAKE ARROWHEAD, Aug. 9. Jack Holmes, the Hollywood Country Club youngster, sat idly by today and watched a strong field of rivals take fruitless shots at his card of 149, posted yesterday, which was to prove sufficient for victory in the fourth annual Lake Arrowhead invitational golfing event. Holmes wound up with 76-73—149 to sweep Class A honors….

Ed Vines had 75-6—69 for net, while brother Ellsworth, the pro tennis champ, won Class B gross with 79-80.​

LA Times edition of Aug. 15:

A Golf Ball was the grand finale of the invitation golf tournament held at Lake Arrowhead in honor of the visiting players.

Winners were Jack Holmes, A. Yates, Glen Weber, Ellsworth Vines, Ed Vines, Bill Srere ….​

LA Times edition of Aug. 20:

Vines Departs for New York

Ellsworth Vines, Pasadena’s professional tennis champion, leaves today for New York where he will meet Vincent Richards, eastern pro ace, in a series of exhibition matches in and around New York City.

Vines plans to return by the middle of next month in order to sail for Japan by September 15.​

Vines was scheduled to serve as a radio commentator for the Longwood doubles finals on Aug. 29; rain postponed those matches until Aug. 31.

New York Times of Aug. 23 previewed an exo between Vines and Richards:

ASBURY PARK, N. J.—Professional tennis matches will attract colonists of the North Jersey shore to Asbury Park next Saturday evening [Aug. 29], when a quartet of stars who formerly played in the annual tournaments of the Seabright Lawn Tennis and Cricket Club will appear at the Boardwalk Convention Hall in the Colonial Terrace Tennis Club’s annual program. Ellsworth Vines, former world’s amateur and professional champion, and Vincent Richards, former Davis Cup star, will appear in one of the singles matches.​

Vines served as a commentator for the Forest Hills matches on NBC radio; and he practiced on the grounds with Budge and Perry. He also wrote articles, filing a full preview of the tournament on Sept. 2. His article was published in the Reading Times and can be accessed at http://www.newspapers.com/image/47763685.

His report of the Perry/Budge final was published in the press the next day, Sept. 13.

In various newspapers on Monday, Sept. 7, “Sports Chatter”:

They say the best display of tennis at Forest Hills last week was the exhibition put on by Don Budge and Ellsworth Vines.​

On Sept. 8 Vines defeated Perry in a practice match at Forest Hills, 6-2, 6-4, 6-3. Dave Walsh, in an INS report, wrote:

Perry took on Ellsworth Vines, the professional, in a practice match yesterday and looked as though he was playing the consolation singles in a public parks event.​

LA Times:

VINES BEATS PERRY

While Budge was having his troubles with Smith, Perry rehearsed with Ellsworth Vines, the California professional, for his match tomorrow with Culley. Never known to extend himself when the chips aren’t down, Perry, as was expected, bowed to the salaried shotmaker, 6-2, 6-4, 6-3.​

American Lawn Tennis published these short notes, describing action after the opening day:

Vines and Budge, watched over by Walter Pate, Gene Mako and Jack Harris and attracting a big crowd on a field court and appearing to play about evenly . . . . During another knock-up several days later Vines saying to Budge, “Do as I say, not as I do.” . . . Vines and Perry having two set-tos with many varying reports as to the outcomes and the “question of the age” still unsettled.​

In Brooklyn on Sept. 13 Vines and Richards played one more exhibition, as part of the Eleanor Holm Sports Festival at Manhattan Beach.

New York Times:

In another feature of the sports festival Vines, world’s leading tennis professional, defeated Vincent Richards, former Davis Cup star, 6-4, 7-5, before 8,000 persons.​

LA Times edition of Sept. 16:

Yvon Petra … and Pierre Pelizza [sic] … arrived in Los Angeles yesterday to compete in the thirteenth annual Pacific Southwest championships which open Friday on the courts of the Los Angeles Tennis Club….

The French youngsters lost no time in turning out for practice at the court, and after a session of singles, they teamed up to meet Ellsworth Vines and Phil Neer in doubles.​

This was only two days after Vines played in Brooklyn, so he must have departed immediately after the festival there.

On Sept. 16 Jane Sharp, a member of Tilden’s pro troupe, wrote this letter to ALT:

This coming Friday [Sept. 18] I am sailing for Japan with Verle and Ellie Vines and Tilden. I received a contract with the same newspaper Vines and Tilden have theirs with. We may go on to Manila and China.​

On Sept. 18 the troupe left San Francisco aboard the SS President Pierce, bound for Yokohama.

An AP report published in the American press on Oct. 5:

TOKYO, Oct. 5.—(AP)—Hordes of enthusiastic Japanese tennis fans mobbed big Bill Tilden and Ellsworth Vines when the American professionals arrived in Tokyo today on an exhibition tour.

The crowds clamored for autographs and photographs of the Americans, who were rescued from their admirers by police.

Vines and Tilden proceeded down the famous Ginza, Tokyo’s Broadway, in triumphal fashion with the capital’s geisha girls and department store sales girls showering them with confetti.​

 

[krosero]

Bowers at http://www.tennisserver.com/lines/lines_04_07_25.html:

JAPAN TOUR

Cold-shouldered by the Australian Lawn Tennis Association, Vines and Tilden continued plans for visiting Japan and other Oriental destinations. Vines, Tilden, and Jane Sharp sailed from San Francisco on September 18 and reached Yokohama on October 5. In a letter printed in American Lawn Tennis, Vines told of the welcome parade down the Ginza and of a just-completed 12,000-seat outdoor stadium in Tokyo with an En-tout-cas court.

Jane Sharp opened the first performance, October 9, before about 9,000. Her opponent was Sanae Okada, Japan’s leading woman player, who had just turned pro. Sharp lost the first set but won the next two. Against Vines, Bill started slowly but won the second and third sets. Vines eventually prevailed by score 11-9 in the fifth set. Mixed doubles closed the program, Okada-Vines against Sharp and a Japanese male pro.

The crowd was even larger on the second day. Sharp again won, and Tilden, "in splendid form" according to watcher B.F. Shively, defeated Vines in straight sets. The troupe then left Tokyo for three performances at Koshien (Osaka) in western Japan, 16-18 October. Okada defeated Sharp on all three occasions, while Vines reasserted his mastery over Bill. Back in Tokyo on October 24 and 25, Sharp and Vines both won twice, all matches in split sets. At this point Sharp led Okada 4-3 in matches won, while Vines led Tilden 6-1. Two more appearances were scheduled, at Nagoya, which were expected to bring total attendance to 70,000. Shively wrote that the Vines-Tilden matches dazzled the spectators. The margin between the two men had seemed slight, he continued, but when Vines decided to unleash his biggest guns, Bill could offer no sustained reply.​

The troupe left Japan aboard the SS President Lincoln and used that ship to visit all of remaining cities on their itinerary. They played on November 6 in Shanghai, on November 9-10 in Hong Kong, on November 13-15 in Manila and on Nov. 20 again in Hong Kong – from where they went back to Shanghai, Yokohama and Honolulu, eventually docking in San Francisco on December 10.

On this Asian tour, the latest match for which I have a newspaper report took place in Hong Kong on Nov. 20, as reported in The China Mail the next day:

“BIG BILL” Tilden and Ellsworth Vines treated a large crowd to a more enterprising display of lawn tennis than they gave on either of their two former appearances when they gave their final exhibition yesterday at the H.K.C.C. [Hong Kong Cricket Club], but Vines was not seen at his best—I believe they had a rough passage here from Manila, while the heat down there did not agree with the tall Californian.

Tilden played brilliant tennis in spasms, and during these periods was undoubtedly the master of Vines, despite his 43 years. His backhand returns on Vines’s cannon-ball services will long be remembered. Though beaten 7-5, 4-6, 7-5, 6-0, he gave his best display in the Colony.

Vines appeared careless and listless, although his assays to the net were invariably productive of points….

Tilden and Vines are leaving to-night for Shanghai.​

Vines and Tilden disembarked in San Francisco on December 10, per the Lincoln Star:

TILDEN, VINES PLANNING TOUR

Tennis Aces Return Home To Go On Road With Fred Perry.

BY MILTON G. DUNLAP

SAN FRANCISCO, Dec. 11—(INS)—Fully confident that he is playing a better game of tennis than he has in the past two or three years, Bill Tilden, the old maestro of the courts, arrived here yesterday from a two-month tour of the orient, silent on his plans for the future.

Tilden was accompanied by Ellsworth Vines, with whom he played a series of exhibition matches in Japan, Manila and China.

“I’m on my way to New York now,” Tilden said, “but until I arrive there I have nothing to say so far as my future plans are concerned.” And no amount of questioning would budge him from this stand.

Vines, however, revealed a few of Tilden’s ideas for a tennis barnstorming tour….

A reporter asked Vines if he thought Tilden was ready to retire, especially now that a larger number of the more youthful stars have turned pro.

“Not on your life,” Vines exclaimed. “Tilden still is playing a beautiful game of tennis. He’ll continue to play a good game against even the youngest of the new stars. He made me look silly a couple of times in Japan.”

… Tilden looked to be in good condition. He was lithe and active as he paced around the Dollar liner President Lincoln, waiting for her to dock.​

Late in December Vines was in California, practicing with Perry, Budge, Riggs, Shields and Hunt.

ALT:

Southern California has received an influx of distinguished players during the past few days, to add to others nearly as distinguished who have been there for some time. In the latter category are Fred Perry and Lester Stoefen, while the new arrivals were Bill Tilden and the Ellsworth Vines party, consisting of Ellsworth, Mrs Vines and Miss Jane Sharp. They came from the Orient, their travels having been cut short by the receipt in Manila of the news that Perry had decided to become a professional. The travelers were due to reach San Francisco on December 13, and the California contingent of course went immediately to the Southern part of the state. Tilden decided to go there too and remain for a few days. He will reach New York about December 18. Vines and Perry will not leave Southern California until after Christmas Day and they will arrive in New York about January 1.​

Fresno Bee edition of Dec. 27 quoted Vines:

LOS ANGELES, Dec. 26.—(INS)…

“Budge will, in my estimation, be the next world’s amateur champion. Von Cramm will give him his hardest competition, but after playing Don a couple of practice matches this Winter, I am convinced that Budge, with greater confidence than ever in himself as the result of his win over Perry in the Pacific Southwest, will be practically invincible.”​

New York Times edition of January 3, 1937:

Ellsworth Vines, world’s professional tennis champion, arrived here from Pasadena, Calif., yesterday for his match with Fred Perry of Great Britain, the world’s amateur champion, at Madison Square Garden Wednesday night….

The world’s champion was in good health, though his weight is down a bit to 160 pounds, and has been training strictly for weeks in preparation for the big match. His wife revealed that New Year’s Eve he had retired at 8 o’clock, refusing to make any exception in getting into the best possible shape for Perry.

Has a Sore Shoulder

It was learned that Vines has been nursing a sore right shoulder and has been receiving treatment for it. He was not unduly concerned and apparently it has not affected his game materially, for he was troubled with the soreness before he left for the Orient and still was able to defeat Tilden in eighteen out of nineteen matches.

He intends to see a local trainer, and meanwhile he has already begun practice, working out yesterday at the Heights Casino in Brooklyn with Gregory Mangin. On the Coast he practiced with Donald Budge, Robert Riggs and Joe Hunt….

“I played three times with Riggs before I left Los Angeles and from the way he was going I wouldn’t be surprised if Budge had trouble in beating him in a tournament they are having now out there.”

…. Vines said that he did not believe the British champion had had much chance to work out in California because of the fact that his time was so occupied in making a movie short.

…. the consensus is that regardless of the conditions Vines is the better tennis player and that Perry, for all of his ability, will be unable to withstand the violent pace of the American’s drives and service, combined with his deadly dispatch of the ball at the net. The practice meetings between the two at Forest Hills last September heightened this belief, though the sessions were entirely informal.​

Vines said in early January (Bluefield Daily Telegraph, Jan. 3, 1937):

“I was away from home 10 months last year, and I’ve really spent only one summer home in the last 10 years.”

At 25, he figures he’s just coming into his best form. He may prefer living in California and playing with his two-year-old daughter Carol, but he’s excited about his series against Fred Perry.​

Jimmy Donahue (NEA Service Sports Writer) in the News Herald of December 31, 1936:

Perry as an amateur had his hand in more tennis during 1936 than did Vines. A season of campaigning on French, English and American courts over a period of months no doubt kept Perry in better trim than Vines, who has been practically inactive.

Vines and Tilden toured Japan, but exhibition tennis against a partner you know so well hardly gives a player the condition that steady tournament participation does, especially when it covers only a couple of weeks.​

 

[krosero]

Hi Krosero,

Thanks for this confirmation.

You mention you have been putting together a list of the matches that Vines and Tilden played in the autumn of 1936 during their tour of Japan, China and the Philippines.

Do you plan to show us those results in a thread?

Absolutely. I'm still missing, I think, 3 stops on that tour, and missing a few other scores. But I have enough to start a thread for it.

 

[krosero]

Vines did not play the Wembley Pro again until '39. He did play at Wembley Stadium, of course, in '37, in that 3-match series against Perry which was called the Coronation Cup.

It took some doing to persuade Vines to come over for it, according to this piece in the London Daily Mail, from October 5, 1938:

(Geoffrey Simpson’s column, “Uncensored Sports Parade”)

Budge for Wembley

Mr. Arthur Elvin of Wembley must be an habitually fast worker in order to keep his many sporting ventures under control, but he must have been up and doing in rapid time these last two days.

It was only on Monday morning that Donald Budge announced his decision to become a professional lawn tennis player. The same day Brig.-General Critchley, of the G.R.A., let it be known that Budge’s change of status meant a new-found interest for him in the indoor tennis pastime.

It looked like being a race between G.R.A. and Wembley for the next world professional championship. I said so, and having fired the gun, as I thought, went to the judges’ end to spot the winner.

But it turns out that Mr. Elvin easily won the jump-off, for yesterday, while we were wondering what would happen, he calmly intervenes and says, “I am staging a world tennis tournament at Wembley in May, featuring Budge, Fred Perry and Ellsworth Vines.”

Already Booked

…. Perry, Vines and the rest of the professional stars are already booked, and there is nothing for us to do but await details of the promotion. It will bring together the three greatest players in the world in a contest for large cash prizes on a knock-out basis.

Compared with the signing of Vines by Wembley last year, the taking of the option on Budge was a piece of lightning negotiation. A Wembley official had to chase Vines for 7,000 miles across America before he would agree to make the trip.​

 

[krosero]

Prize money for that 3-match series between Vines and Perry in '37 was reported in the London Daily Mail:

The takings last night were £2,500. They were about the same on Tuesday, and Mr. A. J. Elvin, the promoter of the matches, is confident of a record crowd for the final match.

£3,000 ON THE TRIP

Perry and Vines will collect £2,000 between them for their three contests, and as other engagements await them at Bournemouth, Glasgow, Liverpool and Dublin in June, Perry should make at least £3,000 on the trip.​

So this Coronation Cup event at Wembley offered £2,000 total prize money, to be apportioned between Perry and Vines. I don't know what first prize was at the Wembley Pro when Vines won the title in '34 and '35. First prize when Budge won it in '39 was £500, out of a £1,000 pool.

But these sums were drops in the bucket compared to what a headliner like Vines or Perry could make on extended H2H tours.

Bowers writes in his chapter for 1938:

... the players assembled to discuss how to make pro tennis profitable--"like golf." A week later Hawthorne, writing in New York Herald Tribune, deplored the absence of Vines and Perry from the recent events and their general lack of cooperation with P.L.T.A. The main problem, he deemed, was that prize money was far too small to interest the superstars. ....

Nor were the pro superstars inclined to risk prestige and future income in order to participate in open tournaments. George Lott wrote in early 1938 that the financial interests of Vines and Perry lay in touring with each other, not in playing in tournaments for relatively small purses, whether the events were pro or open. Perry's competing at the U.S. Pro was a rare break in this pattern.​

 

[krosero]

In the May '37 event at Wembley, Vines and Perry pulled down £2,000, which converted to about $10,000. That was for three matches, all played against each other.

The same amount was offered to Vines and Perry to play 3 matches later in the year in Manila, per the Chicago Tribune of January 4, 1937, at http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1937/01/04/page/25/article/talking-it-over

Ellsworth Vines and Fred Perry have been offered $10,000 to play three matches in the Philippines after their 1937 American tour. . . Vines and Bill Tilden recently received $5,000 for three matches in Manila.​

But the high taxes in England were apparently a disincentive for Vines, perhaps for Perry as well. This was in the January 4, 1937 edition of the Miami Daily News (Miami, Oklahoma):

GRIST

From Sport Realm

By Scotty Reston

NEW YORK, Jan. 4—(AP)—Fred Perry has taken out U.S. citizenship papers. . . . Says he feels more at home here than in England . . . . What he means is that he won’t have to pay income tax to England and the U.S. after the papers are clear. . . . Ellsworth Vines made $3,000 in England last year and says he had to pay 28 percent of it in taxes before he got out.​

[Ellipses original to text]

This reference to "last year" undoubtedly refers to Vines' 1935 trip to England, which had ended only 15 months before this report.

$3,000 happens to be the figure that Vines and Tilden (each or together?) were guaranteed for the '35 Wembley, per this piece in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle of Aug. 23, 1935:

Then he [Tilden] and Vines, Lester Stoefen and George Lott will embark for Europe again, to play at Wembley, England. Bill and Slim will get a $3,000 guarantee; Stoefen and Lott, $2,500. In addition, they will also cut in on the gate. Business, take it from the Messrs. Tilden and Vines, is looking up across the ocean, where pros are expected to report at the tradesman’s entrance.​

 

[krosero]

Per this piece in the Hong Kong Daily Press edition of April 20, 1937, the Wembley official who chased Vines down in '37 was one Mr. H. David:

The Perry-Vines series of matches played all over the United States are to be continued in England.

Mr. H. David, who went to America on behalf of Wembley Stadium, has signed Perry and Vines to appear at the Wembley Pool in singles and doubles matches on May 25, 27 and 29.

They will also play in four provincial towns.

Perry’s Earnings

The receipts from the lawn tennis matches played between Perry and Vines have exceeded all expectations. So far 23 matches have been played, and from these more than £35,000 has been taken.

The percentage which Perry was to receive when he forsook his amateur status was not disclosed, but he has certainly earned considerably more than the minimum sum of £5,000 guaranteed him. Perry only started his professional career on Jan. 6. He has still ten more matches to play with Vines before their tour finishes, and he then starts on a series of matches with W. T. Tilden. These also should draw large crowds. So that the figure of £20,000 which he anticipated earning in his first year should be passed within the first three months.​

When Perry signed as a pro in November 1936 the American press reported essentially those numbers in dollars: Perry was to get a $25,000 guarantee and was expecting a 1937 income of $100,000.

 

[krosero]

Even though I think the chances are virtually nil that any tournament, without Vines, took place at Wembley in '36, a lot of interesting questions remain (and those questions may apply equally to the doubtful '38 edition).

For example, when was the tournament scheduled? Vines told his hometown in June that he would go to Asia rather than England. Vines left for Asia on September 18, so you would presume that Wembley was scheduled for sometime in September or later. But Tilden, when he phoned Vines in mid-summer, seems not to have regarded the two events (Wembley and the Asian tour) as being in conflict; Tilden presumably was on board for the Asian tour, yet he was trying his best to get Vines to come to Wembley. Maybe the Wembley officials were willing to accommodate Vines' plans for the Asian tour and hold their tournament earlier, perhaps in August? Vines, talking to Tilden by phone in July, did not say, "Well we can't go to Wembley because we're going to Japan." He told Tilden that he couldn't go to England because of his exos with Vincent Richards in late August and early September.

Of course, whether a tournament was scheduled for August or September might seem a minor question -- but it would still be interesting to know in more detail what happened to this tournament, and how it was, as Bowers says, lost.

Per Bowers, the conversations between Tilden and the Wembley promoters were described in detail in the London Daily Herald, but those archives are not online.

The golf report in the LA Times on July 31 said that Vines had aspirations "to play in the nationals this year." The nationals were held in Garden City, New York, in September that year. John Fischer won them on September 19: http://archives.chicagotribune.com/...ticle/fischer-whips-mlean-wins-u-s-golf-title

So that raises the question: did Vines' golf plans also conflict with going to Wembley?

I posted above the conversation between the Wembley promoter (Mr. Elvin), and "Brig.-General Critchley, of the G.R.A.," which must refer to the Greyhound Racing Association. That article refers to a race between Wembley and the G.R.A. "for the next world professional championship." But who was Critchley, and what is this interest that he reportedly had "in the indoor tennis pastime"? Did he hold tennis events in London at his own venue?

And the biggest question about the '36 Wembley probably is how we got the specific result of Vines-Nusslein 6-4, 6-4, 6-2? Where does that scoreline come from?

 

[krosero]

I have to admit, when I entered this topic after my discussions with BobbyOne, I did not know what the current status of the debate was, concerning the two questionable Wembley editions of '36 and '38. Do tennis fans/researchers basically, on the whole, agree with Bowers that these tournaments did not take place; or has there been active debate about it?

I'm not aware of any Talk Tennis thread discussing the issue. I see that on some Wikipedia talk pages there used to be some fine, detailed discussions about this topic and the 1930s in general. But those discussions are mostly dated to some years ago. Online access to newspaper archives, since then, has expanded to an unbelievable degree. It's possible now to search for obscure data and results with a very fine-tuned comb on sites like newspapers.com, as you all surely know if you've been studying the period. I presume (not from following any Wembley debate closely, but simply on presumption) that it is now more difficult to make a case for those tournaments, since they still do not turn up in the vast archives now being made available. But I also presume that the topic of what happened to these tournaments is still of interest to tennis fans/researchers.

To me it's astounding that we have results -- thin results, yes, but results nevertheless -- for tournaments that appear never to have taken place. Yes, they're only final-round results (and some tennis recordbooks list doubles winners, as well, in '36 and '38 ), but the fact that they exist at all, and are listed in such works as McCauley's, is significant. And for me that remains true even if we conclude that the results are incorrect.

Unfortunately a number of posters whose fine work on the 1930s I have read with great interest are no longer active here, such as Carlo Colussi and Sgt John. In my recent research on the 1930s I've benefited from their old posts, and I hope they are still active in their research, even if only privately.

In the meantime I have some more material about Wembley in the 1930s which I'll post here. Perhaps in the future there will be replies/discussion about the topic, even if not immediately. The material I find is interesting but it raises some questions that I can't answer (Tilden mentions some results for '36 that I can't identify, for example).

I'll post those, and of course per elegos's request I'll start a thread on the '36 Asian tour.

 

[krosero]

A short notice from July 31, 1936 refers to Tilden making tentative plans to attend Wembley in the autumn. It was published in the China Mail edition of August 24:

TILDEN AND VINES FOR JAPAN
Big “Bill” and Cochet To Clash Again
(By “The Twelfth Man”)

London, July 31

“Bill” Tilden tells me that later in the year he is to visit Japan with Ellsworth Vines, to play exhibition matches and possibly also oppose some of the Japanese amateurs.

Tilden’s plans for the Wembley tournament in the autumn are not yet complete, but early next month he will be at Southport with Lester Stoefen for the final of the Bonnardel Cup between America and France. Here Tilden hopes to have another crack, as he calls it, at Cochet.​

The Bonnardel Cup final was held as expected in mid-August, followed by a tournament in France that Tilden calls the final event of the year, in the article below. He wrote the article in January 1937, ranking the top pros of the year as follows:
1. Vines
2. Nusslein
3. Tilden
4. Cochet
5/6/7 Stoefen, Ramillon, Plaa
8. Barnes
9. Burke
10. Vissault

I do not believe any one will seriously question the placement of Ellsworth Vines, Jr., at the top of the professional list for 1936, even if he did take a beating from Perry last week. It is the general consensus over the world that Vines was the professional—in 1936.

I am placing Hans Nusslein at No. 2, above myself, by virtue of Nusslein’s victory in the English professional championship at Southport, where he won the tournament, defeating Cochet in the final round in straight sets, allowing the French star only seven games.

I have placed myself at third above Cochet on the following grounds. We divided our own two meetings last year. Cochet beat me in the tournament at La Baule, following which I defeated him in the Bonnardel Cup final round, and followed this by winning the final tournament of the year at Le Touquet, in which Cochet played but was defeated before reaching me.

There would be little to choose between us, since Cochet won the French professional championship, beating both Plaa and Ramillon, but I was not included in the entry list. Naturally Cochet follows at No. 4.

In the positions of 5, 6 and 7 I am forced to bracket Stoefen, Ramillon and Plaa, due to a very strange series of results. Stoefen twice defeated Cochet and scored two victories over Plaa, but was in turn defeated twice by Ramillon. Ramillon lost twice to Cochet, once to Plaa and once to Vissault—yet scored two victories over Stoefen and carried me to five sets in the finals at Le Touquet. Plaa defeated Ramillon and myself in five sets each in the English championship, but was beaten twice by me and twice by Stoefen.

So in reviewing the performance of these three men I can see little to choose between them, and feel that the only just placement is to bracket all three. I am placing Bruce Barnes at No. 8, due to his many meetings with these men in past years rather than to any definite results this season.

The position of Albert Burke at No. 9 is based on his carrying Plaa to a bitter five-set match in the French championship and two good performances in the Irish-American-Bonnardel Cup match against Stoefen and myself, rather than on any outstanding victories. The tenth position I give to young Vissault on the one remarkable performance at La Baule, where he defeated Ramillon in five sets after Ramillon led two sets to none and five to three in the third set. He also carried me to four close sets the following day.

Undoubtedly Karel Kozeluh would be well up the list if he had played in any competition this year, but he restricted his efforts entirely to coaching and cannot be included in the ranking list of playing professionals.

The Facondi Brothers, of Chile, are new names in professional tennis. They scored victories over Nusslein and Kozeluh during the South American tour of the latter pair.

The remaining names on the “Insufficient Data” list are placed due to the fact that none of these men competed in any tournaments, nor against a sufficient number of the ranking professionals to warrant adequate placement.​

The tournament at Le Touquet, which Tilden calls the final one of the year, took place August 21-23. A few days later Tilden sailed for New York.

Tilden was playing doubles with Stoefen on this trip to Europe, which he mentioned to the press in Hong Kong a few months later. Bowers lists a few of their results as a doubles team, all losing results; so it's a little odd that Tilden told the reporters in Hong Kong that he and Stoefen had won "the professional doubles' title" on their recent European tour:

Many of the other American Davis Cup players who joined the professional ranks such as Lester Stoefen and George M. Lott, former Wimbledon doubles champions, have been doing very well touring the States while Stoefen toured Europe with me on my last trip when we won the professional doubles’ title. Cochet, whom most of you will remember, is also playing at the top of his form at the moment and will be a men_ace in the professional championships at the Wembley Pool, which will be held next May instead of in September, which was formerly the practice.​

Maybe Tilden is referring to a doubles victory at one of the other pro tournaments (La Baule and Le Touquet both hosted the pros, and I know doubles was played at the latter).

Or it could simply be a mistake made by a reporter/editor. The same Hong Kong interview quotes Tilden saying that the U.S. had won the Bonnardel Cup "last year", when in fact the U.S. had won it only three months before the Hong Kong interview.

Interesting how Tilden refers to the upcoming event at Wembley in May '37 as if it were the next Wembley Pro.

Several months after this interview in Hong Kong, Vines and Perry were finally reeled in for the May '37 event, and then it was no longer the Wembley Pro; then it became the Coronation Cup, designed especially as a H2H series between Vines and Perry.

This is how ALT referred to it in their edition of May 20, 1937:

Fred Perry is the headliner in the exhibition of “International Lawn Tennis” that will be staged at Wembley, London, for three days beginning May 25, he being featured as “World’s amateur champion 1934, 1935 and 1936." H Ellsworth Vines is “World’s professional champion.” Also to appear are “W T Tilden and other leading players in singles and doubles matches.”

In sending ALT the bill or descriptive circular of the Wembley proceedings Carter Wilder, an American reader who has spent much time abroad, calls attention to the fact that the prices have been doubled. He says:

I have just remitted 90 shillings for Seat 82, Row E, Entrance 23, Grand Tier North. Of course this covers the three evenings. In 1935 I paid 45 shillings for the same seat, that is, 15 shilling for each meeting. These are the only seats that are worth anything. They are on either side of the court….​

Prices of the “reserved and numbered seats” are £2/2/0, 30/-, 21/-, 15/-, 10/6, 7/6 & 5/-. The top is therefore $10.50, as against the $9.90 which is all that Messrs Hunter and Voshell thought the traffic would bear when they put Perry and Vines on in Madison Square Garden on January 6.
​

ALT in the same May 20 edition:

Perry, Vines & Co will go from London to Paris early in June and there put on exhibition matches. Another American—Lester Stoefen—and a Frenchman from South America, Martin Plaa, will be added to make a quartet of players—or at least that is the way matters were at first arranged. What follows is a story that ALT has every reason to believe is correct and which is extremely interesting.

Stoefen sailed from New York May 14 on the Ile de France. The next day, May 15, Vines and Perry boarded the Europa, and so will have a few days before they lock horns at Wembley. But about two weeks earlier Bill Tilden sailed from New York for Paris on an errand concerning which few or no details were given out for publicity. It appears, however, that Bill, feeling that he had been left out of the picture decided that something should be done about it. He had asked Perry “How come?” and was informed that Plaa’s selection was due to the French promoters. They had the preposterous idea that Martin was a better card than Bill, and of course they were all wet. If Bill were on hand however he could easily make it plain that the troupe did not need to have a Gallic tinge. With Bill, Ellsworth, Fred and Lester the promoters would be shooting the works and packing them in on every appearance.

So that is one reason why I am waiting eagerly to see whether the cards are to be reshuffled and dealt anew.​

In the end both Tilden and Nusslein were added to the roster of the above-named players, and the entire group of six competed for the Coronation prizes.

ALT said this about the competition:

Critics differed in their estimates of the standard of play. They were almost unanimous, however, in saying that Perry was both steadier and “quicker on the ball” than his American opponent, so that he was the better all-around player, except for the advantage in service held by the American. One observer felt that the standard of Vines’ play was far below that shown by him at Wembley in 1934 and 1935, that he made more weak errors and that his forehand was less lethal than in his amateur days.​

 

[elegos7]

The tournament at Le Touquet, which Tilden calls the final one of the year, took place August 21-23. A few days later Tilden sailed for New York.

Hi Krosero,

Thanks for the info.

Do you have any details or scores from this Le Touquet event?
Courtesy of Robert Geist, I have a results from a "Paris-Le Touquet" event for this week, with Lester Stoefen beating Henri Cochet 4-6 6-2 6-2 8-6 in the final.
However, Tilden mentions in this artice Cochet has not reached the final, and he himself defeated Stoefen there.
So could the Stoefen vs Cochet match be a semifinal? Or perhaps the result of the Paris section?
What was the score of this possible Tilden vs Stoefen match?

 

[krosero]

Hi Krosero,

Thanks for the info.

Do you have any details or scores from this Le Touquet event?
Courtesy of Robert Geist, I have a results from a "Paris-Le Touquet" event for this week, with Lester Stoefen beating Henri Cochet 4-6 6-2 6-2 8-6 in the final.
However, Tilden mentions in this artice Cochet has not reached the final, and he himself defeated Stoefen there.
So could the Stoefen vs Cochet match be a semifinal? Or perhaps the result of the Paris section?
What was the score of this possible Tilden vs Stoefen match?

At http://gallica.bnf.fr/html/presse-et-revues/les-principaux-quotidiens I ran a search for this tournament and only 1 report, in 1 newspaper (Le Figaro, Aug. 22), turned up. The extract of text may contain a few mispellings:

TENNIS.—Hier a commencé sur les courts'du Tennis Club du Touquet le tournoi professionnel de la Coupe d'Opale, auquel prennent part les Américains W. Tilden et L. Stoefel et les meilleurs professionnels français, dont H. Cochet, Martin Plaâ et Ramillon

Voici les résultats:

H. Facondi (France) bat Bacqué (France) 8-6, 8-6 W. Tilden (E.-U.), b. J. Facondi (France), 7-5, 0-6, 6-2, 6-2; L. Stoeffen (E.-U.), b. H. Cochet (France), 4-6, 6-2, 8-6; Martin Plaa (France) b. Vissault (France), 6-3, 6-3, 6-2.

Aujourd’hui seroni jouees les demi-finales du simple et du double.
​

Running that through Google Translate, the tournament began "yesterday" with the above results and will continue "today" with semifinals in singles and doubles.

It's confusing, though, because the 4 results look like quarterfinals, yet Ramillon is not in any of the 4 matches (though he is listed above as one of the players participating in the event). Tilden wrote that Ramillon carried him to 5 sets in the final.

I think it's possible that more than 8 men were entered in the singles and that there was a round of matches before the quarters.

Going by Tilden's recounting of the various H2H's during the summer, I'm guessing that in the semis here at Le Touquet, Tilden beat Plaa while Ramillon beat Stoefen.

Tilden doesn't mention meeting Stoefen anywhere during the summer, and if they met at Le Touquet it would mean that Tilden and Cochet would have been seeded to meet in the semis. I think it would have been more likely for them to be seeded for a final meeting, which is how they met at La Baule.

Unfortunately Le Figaro seems not to have reported any other days at Le Touquet (Carlo must have found these results), which is probably why Bowers says only that Cochet lost to Stoefen here.

 

[krosero]

1936 Wembley was cancelled on August 24

I've found confirmation that Wembley was cancelled, in the London Daily Mail edition of August 24 (“From Field and Pavilion”):

THE third men’s professional indoor lawn tennis championships will be held at the Empire Pool, Wembley, in May 1937.

It had been intended that these series of professional matches should be continued at Wembley in October, but as both W.T. Tilden and Ellsworth Vines have an engagement in Japan, it was found necessary to postpone them till next year.

The championships next May will comprise both singles and doubles matches, and will be contended by Henri Cochet, Hans Nusslein, Robert Ramillon, Martin Plaa, L. R. Stoefen, and Dan Maskell, in addition to Vines and Tilden.​

 

[dgold44]

Really 1936 LOL

That is a tad too far back for me.
Anything before 1984 is a reach for me lol

 

[newmark401]

It's a pity sources contemporary sources such as "Ayres' Lawn Tennis Almanack" and "Lawn Tennis and Badminton" didn't provide much details of the early professional tournaments. Unfortunately, "Le Figaro" was rather inconsistent and sometimes very unreliable when it came to reporting any sort of results.
-----

I've found confirmation that Wembley was cancelled, in the London Daily Mail edition of August 24 (“From Field and Pavilion”):

THE third men’s professional indoor lawn tennis championships will be held at the Empire Pool, Wembley, in May 1937.

It had been intended that these series of professional matches should be continued at Wembley in October, but as both W.T. Tilden and Ellsworth Vines have an engagement in Japan, it was found necessary to postpone them till next year.

The championships next May will comprise both singles and doubles matches, and will be contended by Henri Cochet, Hans Nusslein, Robert Ramillon, Martin Plaa, L. R. Stoefen, and Dan Maskell, in addition to Vines and Tilden.​

 

[krosero]

Re-posting this, which was lost when the old board was restored (small price to pay, btw, to have the old board back).

_____________________________

Using Tilden's January 1937 article, and a few other sources, I've constructed this list of results for the summer of '36.

French Pro
July 6 final
(21 players originally scheduled to compete; draw was re-done when Tilden and Barnes missed the Queen Mary and could not arrive in time)
Results from quarterfinals on were:
Stoefen d. Vissault 3-6, 3-6, 6-1, 6-4, 6-4
Ramillon d. Tissot 6-2, 6-2, 6-4
Plaa d. Burke, A. 4-6, 6-3, 6-1, 3-6, 6-3
Cochet d. Bacque 6-3, 6-2, 6-4
Semis:
Ramillon d. Stoefen 4-6, 6-3, 6-2, 6-4
Cochet d. Plaa 6-0, 6-1, 6-1
Final:
Cochet d. Ramillon 6-3, 6-1, 6-1

Southport Pro
July 7-11
9 players competing, “only one match in the first round” per ALT
A. Burke d. Estrebau in three straight sets
“Second round” (probably quarterfinals):
Cochet d. Stoefen 6-3, 6-2, 10-8
Ramillon d. Burke, E. 7-9, 6-0, 6-1, 6-3
Nusslein d. Burke, A. 6-1, 6-2, 6-2
Plaa d. Tilden 5-7, 7-5, 6-2, 3-6, 6-4
A round-robin among the previous winners ended the tournament:
Nusslein d. Plaa 6-1, 6-3, 6-2
Cochet d. Ramillon 6-3, 6-1, 6-2
Cochet d. Plaa 6-3, 6-2, 6-3
Nusslein d. Ramillon 6-3, 6-2, 6-4
Plaa d. Ramillon 2-6, 3-6, 6-4, 6-2, 6-3
Nusslein d. Cochet 6-3, 6-2, 6-2


Bonnardel Cup semifinal
July 17-18 at Southport
U.S. d. Ireland 4-0
First day:
Stoefen d. Burke, A. 7-5, 6-2, 8-6
Tilden d. Burke, E. 6-3, 6-4, 6-1 (Tilden had not competed since Southport Pro, per ALT)
Second day:
Tilden d. Burke, A. 6-4, 7-5, 6-0
Tilden/Stoefen defeated Burke/Burke 3-6, 6-3, 6-2, 7-9, 6-2
Stoefen vs. Burke, E. was cancelled (Edmund scratching upon medical advice)


Bonnardel Cup semifinal
August 1-2 at Noordwijk
France d. Netherlands 3-0
Cochet d. Hemmes 6-2, 6-3, 7-5
Ramillon d. Waasdorp 6-2, 6-2, 6-4
Plaa d. Hemmes 7-5, 7-5, 6-3
Cochet vs. Waasdorp halted at 3-6, 7-5, 6-3, 4-3


La Baule
Aug. 7-9
Championship de la Côte d’Amour, sponsored by the newspaper Le Matin, which reported results from all three days of the event.
“Started this morning” Aug. 7 per Le Matin:
Ramillon d. Longuemare 6-2, 6-2
Vissault d. Baque 6-2, 7-5
Plaa d. Bagnaud 6-3, 6-2
Stoefen d. Colliard 6-8, 6-2, 7-5
“Second round” (probably quarterfinals):
Cochet d. Tissot 6-3, 6-3, 6-2
Vissault d. Ramillon 4-6, 6-8, 8-6, 6-3, 8-6
Tilden d. Burke 6-3, 6-1, 6-1
Stoefen d. Plaa unknown score (both Le Matin and L'Ouest-Éclair reported that Cochet was to meet the winner of Stoefen/Plaa)
Aug. 8:
“Semifinals”:
Cochet d. Stoefen 9-7, 6-4, 6-0
Tilden d. Vissault 11-9, 3-6, 6-4, 6-3
Aug. 9:
“Final”:
Cochet d. Tilden 9-7, 6-8, 9-7, 6-1


Bonnardel Cup final
Aug. 14-15 at Southport
U.S. d. France 4-1
First day:
Stoefen d. Cochet 10-8, 6-4, 7-5
Tilden d. Plaa 11-9, 6-3, 6-4
Second day:
Stoefen d. Plaa 7-5, 6-3, 3-6, 6-4 (clinched U.S. victory)
Tilden d. Cochet 6-4, 6-4, 2-6, 3-6, 6-3
Cochet/Ramillon defeated Tilden/Stoefen 6-2, 6-0, 7-5


Le Touquet
Aug. 21-23
Coupe d’Opale
H. Facondi d. Bacque 8-6, 8-6
Tilden d. J. Facondi 7-5, 0-6, 6-2, 6-2
Stoefen d. Cochet 4-6, 6-2, 8-6
Plaa d. Vissault 6-3, 6-3, 6-2
“Semifinals”:
(Ramillon d. Stoefen as I infer from H2Hs reported in Tilden’s 1937 article)
(Tilden d. Plaa as I infer from H2Hs reported in Tilden’s 1937 article)
“Final”:
Tilden d. Ramillon in five sets

 

[krosero]

It's a pity sources contemporary sources such as "Ayres' Lawn Tennis Almanack" and "Lawn Tennis and Badminton" didn't provide much details of the early professional tournaments. Unfortunately, "Le Figaro" was rather inconsistent and sometimes very unreliable when it came to reporting any sort of results.
-----

I know, I can't say I've gotten very much useful info from Le Figaro. Some of the other newspapers archived at that site have turned up a few hard-to-find gems (just recently I found another Budge victory over Tilden in summer '39, at Marseilles).

The Trove site has much more information about Wembley than I expected. I'm just going through it now, here's a few links:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/37827349 (Coronation Cup, autumn event “on the Wimbledon plan”)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/68514871 (1937 Wembley Pro final)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/41821474 (tennis section at far right reports ’37 Wembley Pro)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/62156743 (Tilden let down by absence of Perry/Vines at ’37 Wembley)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/42125402 (Budge to turn pro, new Wembley event considered, French Pro report)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/135653838 (Wembley, Harringay and a third venue competing for May 1937 tennis event)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/71353685 (Wembley and Harringay competing for tennis event)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/42186795 (Budge-Perry reported as 17-8; Nusslein 80 matches with Tilden and 39 with Vines)

The most interesting one for me is this one, because it shows no knowledge of any tennis event held at Wembley in '38:

BUDGE GOES OVER
There has been little bidding for the services of professional lawn tennis players in this country, but now that Donald Budge has taken the plunge, and is to commercialise his remarkable talents, a new interest has been created. There is even competition to get the best of the players to come to London and take part in a tournament, but I understand that the Greyhound Racing Association, who aim to make Harnngay a big indoor sports arena, have been beaten by the Wembley stadium in arranging a competition with a £1,000 prize. Under the contract which the players have signed, not only Budge, but Fred Perry, Ellsworth Vines and W. T. Tilden have agreed to play. Wembley held a similar event a year ago, and though it did not realise full expectations, it produced a profit. ​

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/62205918

 

[Pro tennis historian]

Re-posting this, which was lost when the old board was restored (small price to pay, btw, to have the old board back).

_____________________________

Using Tilden's January 1937 article, and a few other sources, I've constructed this list of results for the summer of '36.

French Pro
July 6 final
(21 players originally scheduled to compete; draw was re-done when Tilden and Barnes missed the Queen Mary and could not arrive in time)
Results from quarterfinals on were:
Stoefen d. Vissault 3-6, 3-6, 6-1, 6-4, 6-4
Ramillon d. Tissot 6-2, 6-2, 6-4
Plaa d. Burke, A. 4-6, 6-3, 6-1, 3-6, 6-3
Cochet d. Bacque 6-3, 6-2, 6-4
Semis:
Ramillon d. Stoefen 4-6, 6-3, 6-2, 6-4
Cochet d. Plaa 6-0, 6-1, 6-1
Final:
Cochet d. Ramillon 6-3, 6-1, 6-1

Southport Pro
July 7-11
9 players competing, “only one match in the first round” per ALT
A. Burke d. Estrebau in three straight sets
“Second round” (probably quarterfinals):
Cochet d. Stoefen 6-3, 6-2, 10-8
Ramillon d. Burke, E. 7-9, 6-0, 6-1, 6-3
Nusslein d. Burke, A. 6-1, 6-2, 6-2
Plaa d. Tilden 5-7, 7-5, 6-2, 3-6, 6-4
A round-robin among the previous winners ended the tournament:
Nusslein d. Plaa 6-1, 6-3, 6-2
Cochet d. Ramillon 6-3, 6-1, 6-2
Cochet d. Plaa 6-3, 6-2, 6-3
Nusslein d. Ramillon 6-3, 6-2, 6-4
Plaa d. Ramillon 2-6, 3-6, 6-4, 6-2, 6-3
Nusslein d. Cochet 6-3, 6-2, 6-2


Bonnardel Cup semifinal
July 17-18 at Southport
U.S. d. Ireland 4-0
First day:
Stoefen d. Burke, A. 7-5, 6-2, 8-6
Tilden d. Burke, E. 6-3, 6-4, 6-1 (Tilden had not competed since Southport Pro, per ALT)
Second day:
Tilden d. Burke, A. 6-4, 7-5, 6-0
Tilden/Stoefen defeated Burke/Burke 3-6, 6-3, 6-2, 7-9, 6-2
Stoefen vs. Burke, E. was cancelled (Edmund scratching upon medical advice)


Bonnardel Cup semifinal
August 1-2 at Noordwijk
France d. Netherlands 3-0
Cochet d. Hemmes 6-2, 6-3, 7-5
Ramillon d. Waasdorp 6-2, 6-2, 6-4
Plaa d. Hemmes 7-5, 7-5, 6-3
Cochet vs. Waasdorp halted at 3-6, 7-5, 6-3, 4-3


La Baule
Aug. 7-9
Championship de la Côte d’Amour, sponsored by the newspaper Le Matin, which reported results from all three days of the event.
“Started this morning” Aug. 7 per Le Matin:
Ramillon d. Longuemare 6-2, 6-2
Vissault d. Baque 6-2, 7-5
Plaa d. Bagnaud 6-3, 6-2
Stoefen d. Colliard 6-8, 6-2, 7-5
“Second round” (probably quarterfinals):
Cochet d. Tissot 6-3, 6-3, 6-2
Vissault d. Ramillon 4-6, 6-8, 8-6, 6-3, 8-6
Tilden d. Burke 6-3, 6-1, 6-1
Stoefen d. Plaa unknown score (both Le Matin and L'Ouest-Éclair reported that Cochet was to meet the winner of Stoefen/Plaa)
Aug. 8:
“Semifinals”:
Cochet d. Stoefen 9-7, 6-4, 6-0
Tilden d. Vissault 11-9, 3-6, 6-4, 6-3
Aug. 9:
“Final”:
Cochet d. Tilden 9-7, 6-8, 9-7, 6-1


Bonnardel Cup final
Aug. 14-15 at Southport
U.S. d. France 4-1
First day:
Stoefen d. Cochet 10-8, 6-4, 7-5
Tilden d. Plaa 11-9, 6-3, 6-4
Second day:
Stoefen d. Plaa 7-5, 6-3, 3-6, 6-4 (clinched U.S. victory)
Tilden d. Cochet 6-4, 6-4, 2-6, 3-6, 6-3
Cochet/Ramillon defeated Tilden/Stoefen 6-2, 6-0, 7-5


Le Touquet
Aug. 21-23
Coupe d’Opale
H. Facondi d. Bacque 8-6, 8-6
Tilden d. J. Facondi 7-5, 0-6, 6-2, 6-2
Stoefen d. Cochet 4-6, 6-2, 8-6
Plaa d. Vissault 6-3, 6-3, 6-2
“Semifinals”:
(Ramillon d. Stoefen as I infer from H2Hs reported in Tilden’s 1937 article)
(Tilden d. Plaa as I infer from H2Hs reported in Tilden’s 1937 article)
“Final”:
Tilden d. Ramillon in five sets

I am currently wrestling with 1936 Le Touquet tournament myself. The Stoefen - Cochet match is listed in August 22 1936 issue of Le Petit Journal as a four set win for Cochet 4-6,6-2,6-2,8-6. Along with the Tilden - J. Facondi and Plaa - Vissault results, these are best of five set matches. I am thinking these are quarter final matches. The H. Facondi-R. Bacque match was a best of three set match, which makes me think this was a first round match (it was standard practice in pro tournaments of the period for opening round matches to be best of 3 sets and later rounds to be best of 5 sets). I am thinking H. Facondi then played and lost to Ramillon in the quarters the following day (it was often the case in pro events of this period that one quarter final was finished a day after the other three). Like you, I have found no results of later rounds and conclude, as you do, using the Tilden article, that Tilden and Cochet were seeded to meet in the final (the only logical conclusion).

Therefore Le Touquet 1936 results are:

1st round - H. Facondi d. R. Bacque 8-6, 8-6.

Quarters - W. Tilden d. J. Facondi 7-5, 0-6, 6-2, 6-2
M. Plaa d. H. Vissault 6-3, 6-3, 6-2
R. Ramillon d. H. Facondi
L. Stoefen d. H. Cochet 4-6, 6-2, 6-2, 8-6

Semis - W. Tilden d. M. Plaa
R. Ramillon d. L. Stoefen

Final - W. Tilden d. R. Ramillon 5 sets

 

[helterskelter]

That's a fascinating article about the Train of the Stars. As a European who lives in the USA, I've often been struck by how limited train travel is here. An interesting note at the end of the article that train travel declined because planes were faster and cars more convenient (I'm disaggregating what the article says for clarity). That decline hasn't happened to nearly the same extent elsewhere in the world, and we might note that trains are more convenient than planes and faster than cars. At any rate, they should be faster than cars if properly funded. Nowadays, it takes about 12 hours to get from Montreal to New York or from San Francisco to Los Angeles by train. I've done both train journeys. For long stretches of both journeys, the train is almost at a standstill. They are roughly six hour drives, so even the UK's trains would manage the journey in about three hours, and in many other parts of Europe or East Asia, bullet trains would be faster still. Trains are at their best more comfortable, relaxing, scenic, and pleasant than either planes or cars, and their impact on the environment is not so negative. Too bad trains have mostly died out in the contemporary USA.

And given check-in times and the location of airports, many middle-distance journeys end up being quicker by train.

Just a little bit about travel in 1936. You often read about tennis champions in this time period traveling aboard famous liners like the Queen Mary and the Normandie. The latter ship, for example, brought Tilden from Europe to New York, just in time for the '36 Nationals at Forest Hills. The Normandie and the Queen Mary happened to be engaged in a contest for fastest transatlantic crossing, which was about 4 days at this time.

The fastest crossing of the Pacific was around 10 days, though 15 days was more typical.

The United States was usually crossed on train, though Elly went home at the end of the Stoefen tour by automobile, motoring with his wife Verle back to California.

The fastest trains could cross the United States in 48 hours -- and here again, the big-name tennis champions boarded famous engines like the Super Chief, known as the "Train of the Stars": http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/social-history/2010/the-super-chief-the-train-of-the-stars

Budge recalled this train by name even 30 years later in his memoir. He said that it took him to a Vines/Perry match in Chicago where he had duties as umpire. There's no reason to doubt that he did take that train to Chicago, though the date he gave was about a year and a half too early -- but that's another topic.

Point here is -- and those who have researched this time period know -- that the movements of famous tennis players were reported in detail in the daily newspapers: where they went, where they came from, what transportation they chose, who they boarded with, what time they were expected to dock, etc.

 

[krosero]

I am currently wrestling with 1936 Le Touquet tournament myself. The Stoefen - Cochet match is listed in August 22 1936 issue of Le Petit Journal as a four set win for Cochet 4-6,6-2,6-2,8-6. Along with the Tilden - J. Facondi and Plaa - Vissault results, these are best of five set matches. I am thinking these are quarter final matches. The H. Facondi-R. Bacque match was a best of three set match, which makes me think this was a first round match (it was standard practice in pro tournaments of the period for opening round matches to be best of 3 sets and later rounds to be best of 5 sets). I am thinking H. Facondi then played and lost to Ramillon in the quarters the following day (it was often the case in pro events of this period that one quarter final was finished a day after the other three). Like you, I have found no results of later rounds and conclude, as you do, using the Tilden article, that Tilden and Cochet were seeded to meet in the final (the only logical conclusion).

Therefore Le Touquet 1936 results are:

1st round - H. Facondi d. R. Bacque 8-6, 8-6.

Quarters - W. Tilden d. J. Facondi 7-5, 0-6, 6-2, 6-2
M. Plaa d. H. Vissault 6-3, 6-3, 6-2
R. Ramillon d. H. Facondi
L. Stoefen d. H. Cochet 4-6, 6-2, 6-2, 8-6

Semis - W. Tilden d. M. Plaa
R. Ramillon d. L. Stoefen

Final - W. Tilden d. R. Ramillon 5 sets

That makes sense and I'll update my own list accordingly. I have no further info on this tourney other than what I posted. Thanks for the Facondi/Bacque match, and it does make sense as a first-rounder.

 

[krosero]

That's a fascinating article about the Train of the Stars. As a European who lives in the USA, I've often been struck by how limited train travel is here. An interesting note at the end of the article that train travel declined because planes were faster and cars more convenient (I'm disaggregating what the article says for clarity). That decline hasn't happened to nearly the same extent elsewhere in the world, and we might note that trains are more convenient than planes and faster than cars. At any rate, they should be faster than cars if properly funded. Nowadays, it takes about 12 hours to get from Montreal to New York or from San Francisco to Los Angeles by train. I've done both train journeys. For long stretches of both journeys, the train is almost at a standstill. They are roughly six hour drives, so even the UK's trains would manage the journey in about three hours, and in many other parts of Europe or East Asia, bullet trains would be faster still. Trains are at their best more comfortable, relaxing, scenic, and pleasant than either planes or cars, and their impact on the environment is not so negative. Too bad trains have mostly died out in the contemporary USA.

And given check-in times and the location of airports, many middle-distance journeys end up being quicker by train.

Yeah I've been to Europe only for two brief visits but I remember how easy it was to get around by rail. I've used trains a lot in the US and they're definitely easier than planes (which have turned into a nightmare) but nothing was as easy as a day trip I took from Paris to Brugge, Belgium. Round-trip in a single day, easy as pie and a great trip.

 

[Pro tennis historian]

That makes sense and I'll update my own list accordingly. I have no further info on this tourney other than what I posted. Thanks for the Facondi/Bacque match, and it does make sense as a first-rounder.

1937 Le Touquet isn't reported at all in French newspapers. There is a small article mentioning there is a tournament coming up in Le Touquet and listing the names of competitors and then no reports of the event itself. I am thinking the problem may be that Le Touquet is a long way from Paris and the Parisian newspapers couldn't be bothered to send correspondents to report it. I am assuming Tilden probably won, retaining the tournament he won the previous year.

 

[newmark401]

I wonder if the early French sports publication 'Tennis et Golf' published any results from the professional tournaments held in France, including those that took place outside Paris? It might well have done so. In the near future I'll be able to have a look at 'Tennis et Golf' from the 1920s and 1930s as well as 'Il Tennis Italiano' from 1946 onwards.

If anyone is looking for results from early professional tournaments that might have been carried by either of these publications, please provide a specific tournament, venue and dates and I'll see what I can find.

Mark

 

[Pro tennis historian]

I wonder if the early French sports publication 'Tennis et Golf' published any results from the professional tournaments held in France, including those that took place outside Paris? It might well have done so. In the near future I'll be able to have a look at 'Tennis et Golf' from the 1920s and 1930s as well as 'Il Tennis Italiano' from 1946 onwards.

If anyone is looking for results from early professional tournaments that might have been carried by either of these publications, please provide a specific tournament, venue and dates and I'll see what I can find.

Mark

Thanks for the offer. I am looking for results of Le Touquet professional tournaments in 1936 and 1937 (1937 in particular). These had draws of 9-10 players, which meant a preliminary round of one or two matches plus quarters, semis and finals. I believe I have correctly reconstructed the 1936 draw, but it would be nice to have proof. 1936 Le Touquet took place in late August 1936 and 1937 Le Touquet event took place 12-15 August 1937. I am also looking for confirmation of results of the Roland Garros French Pro in 1936, held June 1-7 1936 (1931 and 1932 listed below by krosero, thanks krosero). Thanks again Mark.

 

[krosero]

I had a look at Tennis Et Golf a few months ago and got these reports of the 1931-32 French Pro.

Just can't help with the translation!


1931

1932

 

[Pro tennis historian]

I had a look at Tennis Et Golf a few months ago and got these reports of the 1931-32 French Pro.

Just can't help with the translation!


1931

1932

These are brilliant, thank you, krosero. I had most of the 1932 results, but hardly any in 1931, so this fills in the gaps. Do you by any chance have 1936 French Pro too? I have from quarters onwards but have a suspicion there may be an extra round before the quarters.

 

[krosero]

These are brilliant, thank you, krosero. I had most of the 1932 results, but hardly any in 1931, so this fills in the gaps. Do you by any chance have 1936 French Pro too? I have from quarters onwards but have a suspicion there may be an extra round before the quarters.

No problem, I have a number of articles from Tennis et golf though most of them are about well-covered events like French Pros of 35/39, Wembley 34/35, etc. I've posted the '39 articles somewhere. The only other one I have for a French Pro is '36 but I can make a library visit and check other years.

The '36 report has nothing listed before the quarters but if you can read French maybe there's some clue in the narrative itself, about whether there was any pre-QF play.

 

[krosero]

I wonder if the early French sports publication 'Tennis et Golf' published any results from the professional tournaments held in France, including those that took place outside Paris? It might well have done so. In the near future I'll be able to have a look at 'Tennis et Golf' from the 1920s and 1930s as well as 'Il Tennis Italiano' from 1946 onwards.

If anyone is looking for results from early professional tournaments that might have been carried by either of these publications, please provide a specific tournament, venue and dates and I'll see what I can find.

Mark

Mark, thank you for your offer. I have library access to Tennis et Golf but not to Il Tennis Italiano. There are some pro tour results we're missing in the pro tour years in Italy. I'll ask @NoMercy and we'll let you know, maybe we can send you a list. Thanks again.

 

[krosero]

I have Tennis et golf articles about smaller events (e.g., 1936 La Baule), and a lot of articles in general from many publications. If anyone would like copies just send me your email. I can post articles here for a few events but to do that I have to upload them somewhere first and get the code to display them here, etc.; email would be easier if we're talking about sharing many articles.

 

[Pro tennis historian]

I have Tennis et golf articles about smaller events (e.g., 1936 La Baule), and a lot of articles in general from many publications. If anyone would like copies just send me your email. I can post articles here for a few events but to do that I have to upload them somewhere first and get the code to display them here, etc.; email would be easier if we're talking about sharing many articles.

I have results of most of the pre-war French events (La Baule 1936 etc.) Strange there was an event at Deauville in 1935 and 1937, but not 1936. Le Touquet 1937 is the only pre-war French event I am missing (just a list of the 10 competitors). I don't read French, but looking through all these French newspapers I pick up on certain words. Looks like I was right and there was a round before the quarters at the 1936 French Pro (the article you posted mentions Cochet beat Longuemare in his first match). No reports in Le figaro etc. before quarters though.

 

[NoMercy]

French Pro 1936

Draw19

Seeds
1. Cochet
2. Stoefen
3. Ramillon
4. Plaa
5. A. Burke
6. Tissot
7. Vissault
8. Colliard


1R
Tissot d. Bagnaud in 4 sets
Adam d. Pettitt in 4 sets
Garnero d. Petit in 3 sets

2R
Ramillon d. Canaveze 6-1 6-1 6-0
Stoefen d. Dartenuc 6-1 6-1 6-2
Plaa d. Tauter 6-3 6-1 6-1
Vissault d. Simon w/o
Cochet d. Longuemare 6-4 6-2 6-1
A.Burke d. Garnero 6-1 6-2 6-1
Tissot d. Adam 6-2 6-3 6-2
Bacque d. Colliard 6-0 6-4 4-6 6-1

 

[NoMercy]

French Pro 1932

Draw14

1R
Colliard d. Pasquier 6-2 6-4 6-3
Ricco d. Rambaud 6-3 6-0 6-4

2R
Curti d. Guillolez 6-1 6-1 6-3
Ricco d. Longuemare 6-3 7-5 4-6 1-6 6-4
Colliard d. Henrion 6-1 6-2 7-5
Dumont d. Feuillet w/o

3R
Ramillon d. Curti 6-3 6-2 6-3
Estrabeau d. Colliard 6-0 6-1 6-4
Tissot d. Ricco 6-1 6-3 6-3
Plaa d. Dumount 6-2 6-1 6-3

Then the three groups : A, B, C

 

[newmark401]

Right, I'll see if I can find anything later this week from the professional tournament held in Le Touquet in August 1937.

Le Touquet event took place 12-15 August 1937.

 

[Pro tennis historian]

French Pro 1936

Draw19

Seeds
1. Cochet
2. Stoefen
3. Ramillon
4. Plaa
5. A. Burke
6. Tissot
7. Vissault
8. Colliard


1R
Tissot d. Bagnaud in 4 sets
Adam d. Pettitt in 4 sets
Garnero d. Petit in 3 sets

2R
Ramillon d. Canaveze 6-1 6-1 6-0
Stoefen d. Dartenuc 6-1 6-1 6-2
Plaa d. Tauter 6-3 6-1 6-1
Vissault d. Simon w/o
Cochet d. Longuemare 6-4 6-2 6-1
A.Burke d. Garnero 6-1 6-2 6-1
Tissot d. Adam 6-2 6-3 6-2
Bacque d. Colliard 6-0 6-4 4-6 6-1

This is brilliant NoMercy, thank you. These early rounds for 1936 French Pro weren't reported in Le figaro. I have complete US Pro results from 1927-67 apart from the early rounds in 1933 and 1936. Do you have these by any chance?

 

[Pro tennis historian]

Right, I'll see if I can find anything later this week from the professional tournament held in Le Touquet in August 1937.

Brilliant. Thank you.

 

[NoMercy]

French Pro 1931 - 1-8 jun

draw 16

1R
Ramillon d. Maximoff w/o
Tissot d. Longuemare 6-1 7-5 6-1
Coillard d. Reed 6-4 6-3 6-3
Estrabeau d. Dumont w/o
Negro d. Rigollet w/o
Plaa d. Pettit 6-1 6-3 7-5
Ricco d. Henrion w/o
Reveillant d. Feuillet w/o

QF
Plaa d. Reveillant 6-2 6-1 2-6 4-6 6-1
Estrabeau d. Negro 6-2 6-2 6-3
Ramillon d. Ricco 6-4 6-1 6-3
Tissot d. Colliard 2-6 1-6 11-9 6-2 6-2

After that, 4 QF winners in a RR4 as in krosero picture.
4 QF losers in a draw4 elimination tournament (for 5-8 spots).
8 R16 losers in a draw8 elimination tournamrnt (for 9-16 spots).

 

[NoMercy]

This is brilliant NoMercy, thank you. These early rounds for 1936 French Pro weren't reported in Le figaro. I have complete US Pro results from 1927-67 apart from the early rounds in 1933 and 1936. Do you have these by any chance?

Which rounds do you need?

 

[Pro tennis historian]

Which rounds do you need?

US Pro 1936 was a draw of around 20. I am missing the few first round matches (round of 32) and all second round matches (round of 16) and one quarter final (Dan Watson's opponent & score). Because none of the top pros played in 1936 the interest level seems to have been a lot less than usual. 1933 I am guessing is around 32 draw I am missing the round of 32 (and matches in round of 64 if there are any).

 

[NoMercy]

US Pro 1936 was a draw of around 20. I am missing the few first round matches (round of 32) and all second round matches (round of 16) and one quarter final (Dan Watson's opponent & score). Because none of the top pros played in 1936 the interest level seems to have been a lot less than usual. 1933 I am guessing is around 32 draw I am missing the round of 32 (and matches in round of 64 if there are any).

They are both complete on TB

 

[Pro tennis historian]

They are both complete on TB

Thanks. 1933 and 1936 US Pro results now complete.

 

[newmark401]

So, at the end of last week I was able to have a look 'Tennis et Golf'. In the edition published on September 1, 1937, in the Our Tournaments section, there is the shortest of paragraphs about the proessional tournament that had been held in Le Touquet during the second week of August.

This paragraph states:

"In brilliant form, Robert Ramillon won the Professional Championships of the Opal Coast (les Championnats profesionnels de la Côte Opale). He beat Bill Tilden, 6-4, 6-3, 6-1, Lester Stoefen and Martin Plaa. Plaa was also beaten by Stoefen, 4-6, 4-6, 8-6, 7-5, 6-4. Tilden and Stoefen won the doubles by beating Plaa and Ramillon, 5-7, 6-1, 6-3, 6-4."

And that's it -- no other results, no indication of rounds, no days or dates, no first names (I've added those)...

Mark

Thanks for the offer. I am looking for results of Le Touquet professional tournaments in 1936 and 1937 (1937 in particular). These had draws of 9-10 players, which meant a preliminary round of one or two matches plus quarters, semis and finals. I believe I have correctly reconstructed the 1936 draw, but it would be nice to have proof. 1936 Le Touquet took place in late August 1936 and 1937 Le Touquet event took place 12-15 August 1937. I am also looking for confirmation of results of the Roland Garros French Pro in 1936, held June 1-7 1936 (1931 and 1932 listed below by krosero, thanks krosero). Thanks again Mark.

 

[NoMercy]

So, at the end of last week I was able to have a look 'Tennis et Golf'. In the edition published on September 1, 1937, in the Our Tournaments section, there is the shortest of paragraphs about the proessional tournament that had been held in Le Touquet during the second week of August.

This paragraph states:

"In brilliant form, Robert Ramillon won the Professional Championships of the Opal Coast (les Championnats profesionnels de la Côte Opale). He beat Bill Tilden, 6-4, 6-3, 6-1, Lester Stoefen and Martin Plaa. Plaa was also beaten by Stoefen, 4-6, 4-6, 8-6, 7-5, 6-4. Tilden and Stoefen won the doubles by beating Plaa and Ramillon, 5-7, 6-1, 6-3, 6-4."

And that's it -- no other results, no indication of rounds, no days or dates, no first names (I've added those)...

Mark

Le Touquet 1937 was played 14-15 jul.
Your results are the ones from the 15th.
The following are the results of day 1.

Day 1
Ramillon d. Plaa 26 46 75 75 61
Stoefen d. Tilden 64 16 75 46 61
Tilden d. Plaa 64 63 61
Ramillon d. Stoefen 62 62 62

Do you have access to L'Equipe?

 

[newmark401]

Do you mean this website: https://www.lequipe.fr/

Do you have access to L'Equipe?

 

[NoMercy]

Do you mean this website: https://www.lequipe.fr/

Nope.
I mean old copies of L’Equipe.
Or the microfilms

 

[Ivan69]

Le Touquet 1937 was played 14-15 jul.
Your results are the ones from the 15th.
The following are the results of day 1.

Day 1
Ramillon d. Plaa 26 46 75 75 61
Stoefen d. Tilden 64 16 75 46 61
Tilden d. Plaa 64 63 61
Ramillon d. Stoefen 62 62 62

Do you have access to L'Equipe?

Ray Bowers wrote that Le Touquet was held Aug 11-15.

Mark researched and quoted Tennis et golf that it was held during the second week of August (a direct confirmation of Bowers). As we saw from the above pictures of krosero the results in Tennis et golf were obviously correct despite some missing first rounds.

If you have an info from L'Equipe it should be discussed first because it contradicts to other official info. But playing games with Mark is not necessary.

 

[NoMercy]

Ray Bowers wrote that Le Touquet was held Aug 11-15.

Mark researched and quoted Tennis et golf that it was held during the second week of August (a direct confirmation of Bowers). As we saw from the above pictures of krosero the results in Tennis et golf were obviously correct despite some missing first rounds.

If you have an info from L'Equipe it should be discussed first because it contradicts to other official info. But playing games with Mark is not necessary.

Are you sure Bowers wrote Aug 11-15?
I’m positive he wrote different, but he was wrong. It was played 14-15.
Two days tournaments.

Also, I don’t understand the part about playing with mark. I asked if he has access to l’Equipe archive because I’m looking for some results of the 50s.
L’Equipe was founded in 1946!
How could I have sources from 1937???
I don’t have fake sources like you.

Wake up Ivan

 

[NoMercy]

double post