1960-1970

kiki

Banned
1/Laver
2/Rosewall
3/Emerson
4/Gonzales
5/Newk
6/Santana
7/Fraser
8/Gimeno
9/Hoad
10/Stolle/Roche
 

YaoPau

Rookie
I think #1 is up for grabs between Rosewall and Laver. Rosewall was arguably the best player in the world from 1960-1965. Laver won the head-to-head from 1964 on, but Rosewall still kept pace in big tournaments through late 1966. I'd probably give it to Laver because of head-to-head, but it's really close.

Totally agree with Gonzalez #3, Gimeno #4. Hard to argue with that unless you want to stick Newcombe in there because of his nice end of the decade run.

After that take your pick between Roche, Emerson, Buchholz, and Ashe/Okker/Segura
 

YaoPau

Rookie
Okker,Segura and of course Butcholz did absolutely nothing to be top tenners.

Buchholz is the easy one. Pro Slam title at age 22 in 1962, beating Segura in the final. Made nine other Pro Slam semifinals in the decade, then two Slam quarterfinals after the merger. Nobody's saying he's a superstar, but he's in any top 10 discussion.

Compare that to a Santana, who didn't play against any pros until the merger and subsequently did nothing, and I'll take the Pro Slam title winner.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Buchholz is the easy one. Pro Slam title at age 22 in 1962, beating Segura in the final. Made nine other Pro Slam semifinals in the decade, then two Slam quarterfinals after the merger. Nobody's saying he's a superstar, but he's in any top 10 discussion.

Compare that to a Santana, who didn't play against any pros until the merger and subsequently did nothing, and I'll take the Pro Slam title winner.

YaoPau, Thanks that you defend Buchholz.
 

kiki

Banned
kiki, You can't compare Okker and Buchholz with the great Segura!!!

I didn´t compare them at all.In any case, Segura could have been an important name in the 50´s but not in the 60´s.

Neither Bucholz neither Okker did anything relevant in the decade compared to others in my list.
 

kiki

Banned
Chuck Mc Kinley could also be a candidate for the tenth place.He beat Stolle at the 1963 Wimbledon final and lost another one there to Laver in 1961.Most accomplished US amateur of the decade along Ashe
 

YaoPau

Rookie
Is there some context you know of that I don't? I'm honestly asking. Not sure why a Amateur Wimbledon winner would be ahead of Pro Slam winner.

Here's Buchholz's Slam performance in the 1960s:

FRENCH
1961: lost to McKay
1962: beat Nielsen, lost to Rosewall
1963: beat Trabert, lost to Laver
1964: beat Ayala, lost to Rosewall
1965: beat Segura, lost to Rosewall
1966: beat Haillet, lost to Laver
1967: beat Ralston, lost to Stolle

WEMBLEY
1961: lost to Trabert
1962: beat Molinari, beat Gimeno, lost to Hoad
1963: beat Haillet, beat Laver, lost to Hoad
1964: beat Ayala, lost to Gonzales
1965: beat Davies, lost to Laver
1966: lost to Davies
1967: beat Hoad, lost to Gimeno

US PRO
1961: N/A
1962: beat Arkinstall, beat Segura (championship)
1963: beat Hoad, lost to Laver
1964: beat Ayala, lost to Laver
1965: beat Ayala, lost to Laver
1966: beat Ayala, lost to Rosewall
1967: lost to Ralston

After the merger, lost to Roche twice and Gimeno once but beat Gimeno once. That's a pretty strong record IMO, and something I'd expect from, say, Tsonga or Berdych today, where they get byes early in tournaments, feast on the weaker players but almost always lose to the elites.

Overall, that's 3-2 against Segura, 2-2 against Hoad, 1-7 against Laver, 0-4 against Rosewall. Not bad.
 

kiki

Banned
Sorry to break your heart again.Butcholz must be having more fans now than in the 60´s, but HE AIN´T NO TOP TEN.He is your basically David Ferrer, nice guy but a top ten position are too big boots for him to fill over a whole decade.

If Butcholz is top 10, Neale Fraser is GOAT as simply as that
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Sorry to break your heart again.Butcholz must be having more fans now than in the 60´s, but HE AIN´T NO TOP TEN.He is your basically David Ferrer, nice guy but a top ten position are too big boots for him to fill over a whole decade.

If Butcholz is top 10, Neale Fraser is GOAT as simply as that

kiki, Who is Butcholz? The brother of Buch?

Fraser's best ranking was a No.9, Buchholz' best rankings was a No. 4 besides of several No.5 places.

Sorry to break your heart.

By the way, Buchholz is a German name (Bookwood translated) and actually there was an Ernst Buchholz a German Davis Cup player in the 1950s...
 

kiki

Banned
kiki, Who is Butcholz? The brother of Buch?

Fraser's best ranking was a No.9, Buchholz' best rankings was a No. 4 besides of several No.5 places.

Sorry to break your heart.

By the way, Buchholz is a German name (Bookwood translated) and actually there was an Ernst Buchholz a German Davis Cup player in the 1950s...

I knew there should be a rare explanation for your liking Bucholz so much: his origins.Now I get it.

What about Froehling?
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I knew there should be a rare explanation for your liking Bucholz so much: his origins.Now I get it.

What about Froehling?

kiki, Please note: I'm not German. By the way, there was another BuchHolz: Horst Buchholz, a famous German movie actor who acted in "1-2-3" (Billy Wilder) and other Hollywood films.

Froehling was a rather weak player equal if he had a German background or not.
 

kiki

Banned
kiki, Please note: I'm not German. By the way, there was another BuchHolz: Horst Buchholz, a famous German movie actor who acted in "1-2-3" (Billy Wilder) and other Hollywood films.

Froehling was a rather weak player equal if he had a German background or not.

Yes, but Horst Buchholz I remember him in western films, isn´t it? wasn´t him one of the Magnificient Seven? Butch certainly wasn´t a Magnificient Seven in tennis..
 

kiki

Banned
Let me check: Newcombe,Roche,Ralston,Pilic,Drisdale,Bucholz,Barthes and Taylor?

Or The Handsome 7 + Tony Roche
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Let me check: Newcombe,Roche,Ralston,Pilic,Drisdale,Bucholz,Barthes and Taylor?

Or The Handsome 7 + Tony Roche

Yes, and Buchholz (with two "H") was more than a substitute ("to fill the draw").

Butch won 5 WCT tournaments in 1968 and was the only pro that year not to lose to an amateur!(He was 7:0 that year)
 

kiki

Banned
How did the NTL led by Mc Call and with Laver and Rosewall, the old pros group react? I think they both merged by 1971, so WCT was left with the only concurrence of the Gran Prix organized by the ITF
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
How did the NTL led by Mc Call and with Laver and Rosewall, the old pros group react? I think they both merged by 1971, so WCT was left with the only concurrence of the Gran Prix organized by the ITF

kiki, NTL merged with WCT maybe in 1970.
 

kiki

Banned
Bobbyone, Laver and Rosewall and Gonzales were NTL men, but in Laver´s and Rosewall´s case could it be that they were independent pros? or did played for the Jack Kramer organization, split up and then Mc Call entered around 64 or 65?

I read about that but it´s been time ago and I have doubts about it.I am sure Mc Call began as a tennis promoter in the middle sixties...
 

urban

Legend
NTL was founded end 1967 or early 1968. George McCall became the promotor, who had been DC captain for the USA. The old pros had more credit in him, than in George Dixon, who acted for Lamar Hunt and put together the WCT handsome 8. On Dixon's behalf, the WCT had some crazy concepts, like VASS scoring, coloured courts and shirts.
Jack Kramer had made his exit out of pro tennis in 1961 i think, when Gonzalez retired for a while. In 1962 the pro tour had a big crisis, and could not establish a full circuit. The pro champ Rosewall played only around 50 matches that year, ca. half of his normal schedule. End 1962, Rosewall and Hoad lured Laver into the pro ranks, by offering their own money as guarantee. Later the pro tour was run by Tony Trabert and Frank Sedgman. In 1964 they put together an US circuit around the new home of the US pro at Boston. The banker Ed Hickey played a vital role here.
 
Last edited:

kiki

Banned
Seems like it was very convulsed in the 60´s, even moreso than in the 70´s ( after all, WCT was a very solid institution backed up by Hunt´s oil millions...).

It is interesting to me the concept of Independent pros.I guess that is more linked to the early year pros ( 1930,1940) than before 1950 when Jack Kramer was the undisputed boss...

I remember once Ivan Lendl being asked about how to define himself in labour terms.He said he always considered himself as a " Self employed" and that " Self employement was the true professionalism in the game".Of course, he said so when people were attacking him in 1982 for his heavy WCT schedule.

Like it or not, Lendl did a lot to support the Hunt´s organization when they split up with the Gran Prix ( again) in 1982.He entered 10 regular tournaments...and won them all.He entered the three tour finals...and won them all.He ended the year ranked nº 1 in the Nixdorf Computers, which the WCT created to rivalize..with the ATP rankings.
 

kiki

Banned
Come to think about it, I never liked at all ATP moves.How could they exclude the WCT tournaments from its ranking system when ATP means " Association of Tennis Professionals" thus, it should be neutral in the fights of rival tournament organizations?

If you pay your fees to be a memeber of the ATP...Shouldn´t it help you and protect you if you decide that your best interest is playing the WCT tour and not the Gran Prix?.I understand they only care about the ATP tour because there has been only one tour from 1990 on, but before that, there were 2 tours...how could they exclude one? amazing bunch of hypocritals...and people still criticizes the players who entered the 1973 Wimbledon tournament¡¡¡¡
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
NTL was founded end 1967 or early 1968. George McCall became the promotor, who had been DC captain for the USA. The old pros had more credit in him, than in George Dixon, who acted for Lamar Hunt and put together the WCT handsome 8. On Dixon's behalf, the WCT had some crazy concepts, like VASS scoring, coloured courts and shirts.
Jack Kramer had made his exit out of pro tennis in 1961 i think, when Gonzalez retired for a while. In 1962 the pro tour had a big crisis, and could not establish a full circuit. The pro champ Rosewall played only around 50 matches that year, ca. half of his normal schedule. End 1962, Rosewall and Hoad lured Laver into the pro ranks, by offering their own money as guarantee. Later the pro tour was run by Tony Trabert and Frank Sedgman. In 1964 they put together an US circuit around the new home of the US pro at Boston. The banker Ed Hickey played a vital role here.

Thanks, urban, for this explanation.

I think Laver and Rosewall never were independent pros.
 

Fantasio

New User
1/Laver
2/Rosewall
3/Emerson
4/Gonzales
5/Newk
6/Santana
7/Fraser
8/Gimeno
9/Hoad
10/Stolle/Roche
Very good indeed, Kiki. There are just two minor observations I can make:
- as you start in 1960, there's a chance Gonzales could be third ahead of Emerson. It depends much on the inclusion of 1960, as it's unclear which decade it belongs to.
- Santana could be ahead of Newcombe and, again, it depends on 1970: if included I agree, if not I'd prefer Santana.
 

kiki

Banned
Very good indeed, Kiki. There are just two minor observations I can make:
- as you start in 1960, there's a chance Gonzales could be third ahead of Emerson. It depends much on the inclusion of 1960, as it's unclear which decade it belongs to.
- Santana could be ahead of Newcombe and, again, it depends on 1970: if included I agree, if not I'd prefer Santana.

Yes, it starts in year 0, so 1960 (IMO).Don´t know if Gonzales had the results to surpass emmo for the whole decade, not just for a few brilliant displays here and there.Maybe Santana and Newk are closer but 1967 John dominated the am tour while Santana was never the real nº1
 

kiki

Banned
and, while there was some close rivalry between the US and Australia in the 50´s, the 60´s belong completely to ozzland.

in the pro ranks, the old Gonzales was keeping the flag against the likes of Hoad,Laver and Rosewall.

In the ams ranks, it was only Chuck Mc Kinley in the decade´s first half and Arthur Ashe in the second half.and two spaniards, amateur Santana and pro Gimeno, because, for the whole rest, it was australian.Laver,Rosewall,Hoad,Emerson,Newk,Roche,Fraser,Anderson,Cooper and Stolle.Unbelievable.But true.
 
Last edited:
Top