1999 FO -- Hingis Was Right

Jason Swerve

Professional
Well if you approached me with this topic about 5 or so years ago, I would have called you a sore loser. In a general sense, I mean, not truly you. Despite our disagreements from time to time, I do share your perspective that Steffi was outplayed by Martina on this day. I'm of the mind that she deserved to lose this match and win Wimbledon. Maybe the Martina doubles resurgence was a form of karma? She never won a singles open title again after this loss.
There're more important things to life than winning a RG, but you shouldn't have to expect a 20 year old champion to be saying that. It wasn't someone making excuses- they'd got to the finals twice and they were advancing a fourth time, and they made that comment about needing oxygen but not RG. Look at how worse Graf was when you compare that maturity at age 20 to Graf desperately cheating and huffing and puffing like a freaking kid at age 29. It's absurd. She didn't deserve to win ever again if you ask me. A flawed personality for all the flawed personalities out there.

Hingis lost her slams from '99 and on because she choked or got tired. I blame injuries for the second. No excuse for the first. Even that wimpy '98 Hingis would've cloroxed Capriati if she had four match points. The Hingis of the 2010s would've done the same thing- she wasn't winning doubles slams at 30, playing like she did in '01-'02. But that pushing game was working on Capriati because of the heat, and a little heat stroke was mistaken for Capriati not knowing how to play. For the second, though, you also gotta think about why Hingis flopped after losing the third set in both these matches. She said it was motivational, but it's much harder to grind out a win, like she had to do, when your feet are destroyed. That was why she took some of her breaks, too.
 

Graf1stClass

Semi-Pro
There're more important things to life than winning a RG, but you shouldn't have to expect a 20 year old champion to be saying that. It wasn't someone making excuses- they'd got to the finals twice and they were advancing a fourth time, and they made that comment about needing oxygen but not RG. Look at how worse Graf was when you compare that maturity at age 20 to Graf desperately cheating and huffing and puffing like a freaking kid at age 29. It's absurd. She didn't deserve to win ever again if you ask me. A flawed personality for all the flawed personalities out there.

Hingis lost her slams from '99 and on because she choked or got tired. I blame injuries for the second. No excuse for the first. Even that wimpy '98 Hingis would've cloroxed Capriati if she had four match points. The Hingis of the 2010s would've done the same thing- she wasn't winning doubles slams at 30, playing like she did in '01-'02. But that pushing game was working on Capriati because of the heat, and a little heat stroke was mistaken for Capriati not knowing how to play. For the second, though, you also gotta think about why Hingis flopped after losing the third set in both these matches. She said it was motivational, but it's much harder to grind out a win, like she had to do, when your feet are destroyed. That was why she took some of her breaks, too.
So do you like her after 1997 or not like her? She did not have too many chances for a grand slam title after this, or you're perhaps mostly accounting for doubles? I cannot see any alleged cloroxing from the Martina you had earlier admitted to be "fat" and so on, and whom you said cared too much about dyeing her hair. If Capriati had tremendous mental fortitude, it was less so than Graf's in this era; and that of Martina was below theirs. I make no excuses for Steffi Graf in this match, as you by now can openly see. I'm also grateful to have you join the discussion to offer insight that I hope has turned some opinions on the topic, though it cannot change the past. For how terribly she was treated, Martina had been the underdog of the year since January by your claims, and she knew that there was hostility towards her as she confronted Steffi in their final. The biasedness of the calls weren't new to her, and she should have known what the equally biased crowd would do to her if she had opted to cross the net as she did.

Please don't mistake this for my saying she should not have. However, if she had done so and pointed at the mark, and then she returned to her post, she would not likely have suffered a penalty. I may have missed this angle, but I believe part of the issue was that she held up the game. Everyone wants to see a match. This led to the outburst Graf gave her before the final point, it appears. One can expect to be booed for crossing over the net. That is a part of the match as she made it, and it was for the majority Graf's wrongdoing, but the child evidently was not thinking anything through to expect that everything would remain calm or that she would receive an abundance of cheers for "challenging the authority", and that unfortunately manifests as a form of lapsing concentration, or simply common sense, during a match. I will respond to the rest as soon as I can, as work has been fairly hectic as of recent.
 

Graf1stClass

Semi-Pro
I've at last got a break from work and can finish my reply. It took forever to remember the formatting all over again; so please excuse me if sections are out of place.

There's a difference. Hingis played more than Graf in the '90s, up until this RG and Wimby. She had less time to recover. Both their knee injuries could heal if they got enough rest, but Hingis played the entire time. You can say it's her fault, and that's cool, but the facts are the facts. Both their identities were nothing but tennis, and they were both going to keep playing through their injuries, but Hingis' injuries were more subtle and harder to notice until past the point of no return. I think I made a carpal tunnel analogy somewhere. Graf had the more bombing injuries that she could've still managed some kind of play with if she rested and took it easy on the court to not stress them. But can you do that when everyone else but Hingis is on their way up? I don't think so: Hingis could last for longer while she was injured because her injuries weren't bombing- they built up over time. Graf's injuries left her out for periods in a game that was getting faster and faster paced as far as the field went.

On the other foot, Hingis' predominant injuries were impossible to take it easy on without moving slower and flitting (like she tried and we saw), and even that didn't stop the pain by '01. You can move as slowly and unsolidly as you want, but you still have to step on your soles. Unless Hingis literally lays in bed from '98-'99, she's only aggravating her injuries. Way more than what Graf had to deal with. I said the grass surface would've helped Hingis, but not that much. She still had to take steps. Grass versus clay versus hard courts are most distinguishable by how they affect your knees. Clay and mostly grass are better on the knees, and that was both their issue- mainly Graf's, though. So Graf was the one really benefitting in terms of movement once they were off hardcourts. That means movement-wise, Hingis was disadvantaged against Graf on the clay, and she still pushed Graf to the brink with a second-rate game. It's things like that, why I say the Hingis who lost to Majoli (and that Majoli, for sure) would've blown the prime Graf away. Hingis' only weakness against Graf before '97 was fitness because she didn't start reaping the results of stronger fitness until that January, coinciding with her new work ethic and her growth spurt. Besides that, Hingis only struggled on grass, her worst surface, and '96 Hingis was pushing Graf on carpet which is pretty similar to grass.
I'm aware that Martina seriously injured herself by the 2000's. What I find interesting is the comparison between the two types of injuries. In the time that she was losing, she was facing competition similar to what Graf had provided. It seemed as though there were many of these heavy hitters for her to face now, compared to in the past. I would venture to suggest this accelerated her injuries, as she was required to utilize her retrieval skills far more often than she would have wished.

However, I'm struggling to understand your point here (though I hold the pun in high regard). If this is the inferior version of the lady, then would you not be stating that lack of health signified a future where she would be taken by Graf if they had continued to play? I believe that Steffi showed a astonishing sense for recovering from rehabilitation, and it pains me to say (figuratively) that Martina did not display this same knack for recovery at all. The purpose of Steffi's retirement is by her formal words, a lack of playing motivation.

"If you ask me, Hingis didn't even take the high road. She took the overpass."
This actually has a degree of believability to me now that you've elaborated. You've shown me a new perspective on the subject and her character, and I do thank you for it in earnest. All the more impressive when taking into account she was the younger friend. However, maybe you should ask her just to be sure. :p

"The plan was to have fun and get Dokic some more experience too so that she wouldn't keep losing and losing face with her dad around."
So in this case, my question to you is this: let's assume that she did retain the motivation to progress the stages. We can figure that she defeated Graf sometime early on or even towards the end of the tournament. If she had met Dokic in the same fashion within the final round of the tournament, would you see events playing out in the same manner? Why or why not? Apologies for formatting this as an essay, although it is a bit of a loaded question to forewarn you.

"Can't remember if I said it, but Hingis in Flushing '97 started hitting too Venus even when she had clear winners, just to keep Venus in the point."
I don't entirely understand your meaning here. Were you proposing that she kept the ball in play for Venus's sake? I find is difficult to believe if so, but I would like to verify if this is what you meant. There is no reason to give up any advantage, in a final round for the USO that way. Moreover, I do recall her stating that they did not get along too well in comparison with her and Serena. In any case, how does this relate to the Martina of 1999 and Dokic? I don't follow. You said her 1999 form was vastly lesser. Was her increased fitness able to maintain her a consistent playing level?

"The only exception was when Molitor was brought up, Hingis started foundering and said she wanted to apologize to her and already tried."
That is true indeed. I too haven't forgotten her crying on air. That entire season was a turbulence of emotions for so many involved. And lol -- believe it or not, I'm rather certain I DO remember that factoid regarding the "doing the chores" from one of the issues I read during my time on the East Coast. So I at least know you're not making that up! ;)

"You might also remember what I said about '97: Martinka '97 literally only came about because Graf kept denying her her breakthrough in '96."
I find this interesting. What is the reason that you're saying she increased her game solely to have a rematch against Steffi Graf? They did play in the Chase Championships, but are you stating this match was the only reason she trained so allegedly much? Or is it a combination of this and the media influence that was mentioned earlier? By 1999, I could understand the latter. Otherwise, I seem to remember that she was rather aimless and merely enjoying a life in 1997. In fact, I think you said something to that effect when Dragomir was referenced.

"I'd agree except the paradigm is that Hingis played worse than Graf at a certain point, and Graf played better than Hingis- after a certain point."
Fair point. I won't deny this. I can blame Martina's mentality, although slightly less relevant. I am quoting the major issue by you, however:

"I get if you say Hingis was already losing it by flipping out over that point, but you already pointed out that she didn't. She told the reporters she wasn't really thinking about anything but winning each point and not being cheated, and she saw Graf was cheating her and the umpire wasn't listening to her."
If one considers her reaction to be a part of the game, then there is honestly no excuse for how she handled the situation. She should have known that she was the underdog judging by her prior matches, and she should have foreseen what turned out to be unforeseeable to her. It isn't fair, and make no mistake that it mars Steffi Graf's career; but I would argue that the ability to recognize the situations is just as important in certain tennis matches then the level of one's tennis on its own. We can both agree that Martina played better tennis on that day, but she lost a match that she by all means deserved to win due to that missing half. I admit that picturing a cheeky Martina dancing with Agassi at Wimbledon puts a smile on my face. That plausibly would not have happened some years ago. Anywho, as long as Sampras lived, there was no chance of that happening.

"There's no 'cherry picking' or 'excuse-making' or 'overlooking' going on here: whatever Hingis thought about tennis and tennis careers, she said no matter whose it was. She always prefaced with positive remarks too, but Graf wanted to- once more- kick Hingis' ass and win her last slams, preferably together, and she wasn't interested in the Hingis style of playing everyone equally and impartially analyzing the game as it goes. Hingis said she left all her grudges off the court- Graf did say the same thing, but it was obviously a lit."
I can agree to the first part of this statement, but the second I see as contradictory. You had remarked earlier that the sole mission of the kid who eventually became Martinka was to one day avenge her loss to Steffi Graf. By this logic, how can she have a desire to want to play everybody equally? It sounds as though she was dying to play one person more than anyone if we're to take what you say at face value.

Just so you know, there were no hard feelings intended with any of my posts as of late. I'm just having a little fun as I presume you are with some of the colorful rhetoric. In all truthfulness, I appreciate the flavor you bring to this forum, and I'm finding myself posting more as of late. How much of it is you and this thread, there is some factor to be sure as I've intended to post something like this topic for a couple of years now. Whether you've entirely meant your Hingis posts or not, your theme is far more interesting than Federerbestclass's. It's most certainly clever to boost a player who went on a humongous winning streak (with bad shoes) before becoming injured, of no one else.
 
6. I'm going to skip to what turned me (halfway) against Graf. But before this, there was another point somewhere through the 2nd set where I clearly remember that Steffi hit an in ball that was called out. Martina immediately went back to check the mark, and pointed out that it was on the line for the umpire. She agreed with Steffi and did this twice, then got ready to replay the point. She did not try to argue this like Graf had lied earlier. She did not point to any other mark. Looking back it is a way to calm yourself down when you are feeling nerves, but it was nonetheless character.

Eventually Martina has to serve for the match amid incessant cheering for Graf. This didn't contribute to the choking in my opinion, but it didn't help. Highlights include the crowd doing the wave while Martina goes to the bathroom and booing her when she returns. They also chanted Steffi's name while Steffi waved with them. I had a hoot at that one. A shot for Martina was called in and the crowd booed. But especially Steffi's playing was getting even stronger with Set 3 with her crowd support. Obviously the superior player is Graf in her prime, but Martina was making so many errors because of her own nervousness/the crowd that Graf should've expected Martina to get desperate. First she began to hit with an extreme loopy spin to keep her shots in. Then at Graf's match point she hit the underhanded serves. The first drew enormous booing from nearly everyone. The second landed out and Martina went to complain that the booing as she served distracted her and that she deserved another serve because it was "too loud". The umpire told her that once she hit the ball, she couldn't take back the serve.

The umpire was in the right here. Martina actually served before the jeering against her underhanded. But then Graf stormed over without context, and sarcastically yelled at them both "Are we playing tennis now?" Martina tried to plead back "But I can't hear" and Graf continued to the umpire that "Are we playing tennis or are we just talking? We're just talking is that it?" or something similar prompting Martina to walk away. This was the final straw for me, or it would've been if I was more neutral. Martina really wanted another first serve, but Graf shut her down in any case when it just looked like the child was trying to reason with her. Graf was whooping Martina's toosh after knowingly lying to send the crowd against Martina, and I'm always grateful she won the slam. But she did not win it with dignity in my opinion. For just a moment, Steffi here sunk below Martina's level and became an irate cheater. Then she had the nerve to tell Martina she would come back and win one day, after completely ignoring her 10-20 minutes earlier.


I'll now prepare for my appointment. I do not know why others perpetually defend Graf for that flagrantly immature behavior. Again, I was one of them...Graf is a champion without that day. I do know that, now that Graf's legacy as the best is more called into question, I would have preferred she have been honest and won her title honorably. If not, her loss would've saved Martina a lot of mental trouble which is just as well to me. The longer Martina remained on top, the better that would have been for the future dimensions of women's tennis.
Steffi Graf won the FO 99 final against Hingis with the utmost class. It was her greatest day and she taught a spoiled brat a lesson for life.
And why you think Steffi lied is beyond me. It has never been proven that Hingis' infamous ball was even out. Trying to judge that from a TV camera about 100 m away is ridiculous. And to claim that Steffi KNEW the ball was out is spreading insane haterade. I sometimes ask myself what Steffi Graf has done to haters like you. Sad!!
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
Steffi Graf won the FO 99 final against Hingis with the utmost class.
Hilarious. You made an account for this? Marching up to the umpire on championship point to roll her eyes and ***** at her and Hingis, then ignore Hingis' response. That's 'utmost class' to you. I guess people like Benoit are deacons to you, eh?
 
Hilarious. You made an account for this? Marching up to the umpire on championship point to roll her eyes and ***** at her and Hingis, then ignore Hingis' response. That's 'utmost class' to you. I guess people like Benoit are deacons to you, eh?
Why would I make an account "for this"? I have a new account and I am a tennis fan. And I detest childish fanboy trash talking against any of the greats of tennis. Especially Graf is generally considered to be one of the classiest top players ever. And certain people hate her simply for that.
So I decided to correct this self-appointed former Steffi fan (what a liar!) with my first post here.
BTW, Hingis can be glad that Steffi did't hit her in the face. It was quite funny to see how she made two steps backwards when Steffi approached the umpire's chair. As if she was afraid that Steffi would become physical, LOL!
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
Why would I make an account "for this"? I have a new account and I am a tennis fan. And I detest childish fanboy trash talking against any of the greats of tennis. Especially Graf is generally considered to be one of the classiest top players ever. And certain people hate her simply for that.
So I decided to correct this self-appointed former Steffi fan (what a liar!) with my first post here.
BTW, Hingis can be glad that Steffi did't hit her in the face. It was quite funny to see how she made two steps backwards when Steffi approached the umpire's chair. As if she was afraid that Steffi would become physical, LOL!
I've seen more than one account on this site who types exactly like you do. You're no master of faces. And you won't singlehandedly get the thread closed, but I wanna thank you for reminding me to reply to his comments. The time keeps flying on me.

I'll correct you on a couple things, though.

One: The Tournament director and umpire (you can look their names up in the thread), they personally reached out to Hingis to apologize because they did, in fact, muck that tournament up with a blatantly improper call. This is on record, according to that director and- I believe- Hingis. When you skip down the thread to giddily post your opinion, you miss out on these facts.

Two: Hingis was a boxing enthusiast who boxed recreationally, weekly, as part of her training (I'm talking an actual gym schedule). She frequently compared her tennis matches to boxing matches. I know I was making the case that she was more injured than Graf in this match, but that whole 'hit her in the face' was a little too 'on the nose'.
 
I've seen more than one account on this site who types exactly like you do. You're no master of faces. And you won't singlehandedly get the thread closed, but I wanna thank you for reminding me to reply to his comments. The time keeps flying on me.

I'll correct you on a couple things, though.

One: The Tournament director and umpire (you can look their names up in the thread), they personally reached out to Hingis to apologize because they did, in fact, muck that tournament up with a blatantly improper call. This is on record, according to that director and- I believe- Hingis. When you skip down the thread to giddily post your opinion, you miss out on these facts.

Two: Hingis was a boxing enthusiast who boxed recreationally, weekly, as part of her training (I'm talking an actual gym schedule). She frequently compared her tennis matches to boxing matches. I know I was making the case that she was more injured than Graf in this match, but that whole 'hit her in the face' was a little too 'on the nose'.
You hate Graf which is a disturbing thing to see. A tennis player who is retired since 1999 ...

But to believe that the umpire and the tournament director (!) "personally reached out to Hingis to apologize" is hilarious. Anne Lassere (umpire) only admitted later that it was very unfortunate that she and the lineswoman weren't able to find the mark of the ball. BTW, Hingis always had problems with the truth in her life.

And if you charge me again with having double accounts I will report you. Hopefully fanatics like you are in the clear minority here.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
@BorgTheGOAT There's no reason to be liking those comments. There's a little more antipathy towards the kid than you wanted to admit, I see.
I like whatever post I agree with, this is zero your business.

Is the second time now that you come to me mentioning what posts I like. For someone always stressing that he doesn’t care that nobody here in TTW agrees with his weird opinions you seem to be quite obsessed with likes.

As for the other remark: I do not really have antipathy towards Hingis. Actually I never cared at all about her before you started bringing her up in next to every thread and spouting completely hilarious statements that she had any chance in hell to beat Federer, Djokovic or Sampras. I have to admit though from what I know about her she is not exactly a nice person (snotty public remarks towards many fellow players, physically attacking her ex-husband together with her mother etc.)
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
I like whatever post I agree with, this is zero your business.

Is the second time now that you come to me mentioning what posts I like. For someone always stressing that he doesn’t care that nobody here in TTW agrees with his weird opinions you seem to be quite obsessed with likes.

As for the other remark: I do not really have antipathy towards Hingis. Actually I never cared at all about her before you started bringing her up in next to every thread and spouting completely hilarious statements that she had any chance in hell to beat Federer, Djokovic or Sampras. I have to admit though from what I know about her she is not exactly a nice person (snotty public remarks towards many fellow players, physically attacking her ex-husband together with her mother etc.)
It very much is since I was the one responding and you waited until after our scuffle to do it. Just admit it- well you already have: 'snotty public remarks towards many fellow players, physically attacking her ex-husband together with her mother etc'. Jack all to do with this thread, the former nondescript and the latter wasn't even verified.

Suddenly, he's into the Hingis gossip. And...funny- I know you ain't care about her until me. You don't need to reiterate it. Very old and obvious news you're telling me. Now look at you. You try to pretend you don't have anything against her either way, but as soon as you see me responding to someone...

Come on, be honest with yourself. I'm doing nothing but calling your sentiments, and you can try to reverse it on me, but it's peculiar at best to see you repeatedly stumbling your way into the conversations about Hingis I'm in engaged in. What, three times now? This guy BorgTheGOAT never had anything in his life to say about her, and now he's triple-liking posts that attack her integrity? Why don't you say how you really feel instead of that glaringly evasive 'I agree'. You aren't slick- I'm obviously still on your mind about this, and your rationale doesn't extend any deeper than that. There's nothing sadder than disliking a person because of someone else's opinion on them. A sign of very weak character, I tell you.

Alternatively, do you just now suddenly believe that the thread creator is a 'Graf hater' and that Hingis was scared Graf would 'hit her in the face'. I've got to assume you're at least bothering to read what you're Liking. I wouldn't have batted an eye at your Likes if the kid weren't insulting the topic creator who at one point had mocked Seles' weight (though he moved on from that), and brought a hypothetical fistfight into the discussion, going "LOL". But if that's really how you feel, which it isn't, then we'll leave it at that.



@Second It's very unfortunate that you made an account to incorrectly rehash what we've already discussed. I don't have anything else to say to you but 'read the thread'.

Plus, your threats have me shaking. Good thing I don't back-and-forth with non-contributive posters. I put them on Ignore. A fond farewell.
 
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BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
It very much is since I was the one responding and you waited until after our scuffle to do it. Just admit it- well you already have: 'snotty public remarks towards many fellow players, physically attacking her ex-husband together with her mother etc'. Jack all to do with this thread, the former nondescript and the latter wasn't even verified.

Suddenly, he's into the Hingis gossip. And...funny- I know you ain't care about her until me. You don't need to reiterate it. Very old and obvious news you're telling me. Now look at you. You try to pretend you don't have anything against her either way, but as soon as you see me responding to someone...

Come on, be honest with yourself. I'm doing nothing but calling your sentiments, and you can try to reverse it on me, but it's peculiar at best to see you repeatedly stumbling your way into the conversations about Hingis I'm in engaged in. What, three times now? This guy BorgTheGOAT never had anything in his life to say about her, and now he's triple-liking posts that attack her integrity? Why don't you say how you really feel instead of that glaringly evasive 'I agree'. You aren't slick- I'm obviously still on your mind about this, and your rationale doesn't extend any deeper than that. There's nothing sadder than disliking a person because of someone else's opinion on them. A sign of very weak character, I tell you.

Alternatively, do you just now suddenly believe that the thread creator is a 'Graf hater' and that Hingis was scared Graf would 'hit her in the face'. I've got to assume you're at least bothering to read what you're Liking. I wouldn't have batted an eye at your Likes if the kid weren't insulting the topic creator who at one point had mocked Seles' weight (though he moved on from that), and brought a hypothetical fistfight into the discussion, going "LOL". But if that's really how you feel, which it isn't, then we'll leave it at that.



@Second It's very unfortunate that you made an account to incorrectly rehash what we've already discussed. I don't have anything else to say to you but 'read the thread'.

Plus, your threats have me shaking. Good thing I don't back-and-forth with non-contributive posters. I put them on Ignore. A fond farewell.
Yea whatever. Again I like whatever post I want. Pretty lame of your to follow my actions and stalk which posts i like only because you are bitter that literally nobody likes your posts or agree with your opinion.

As for your attempt to play hobby psychologist, you are wrong as always. I do not hate Hingis, I do not care about her at all. if you read my post history you would see that I never ever mentioned her in any post in almost 4 years in which I am posting here. She is not particularly interesting topic for most people in this forum as she is only a borderline WTA ATG far away from a GOAT candidate. The only reason I engaged in conversation about her is because of your delusional statements that she could beat prime Federer or peak Djokovic. Had you stated the same about Graf, Serena or whoever I would have reacted the same. My only bad on this was actually that I tried to take you seriously and even gave you arguments for something that should be clear to everyone anyways - should have known you cannot argue with a fanboy.

Anyways as I already said, conversation is over now. If you want to continue playing the forums clown and believe that Hingis is the greatest of all time and suspect double accounts if nobody agrees with you please go ahead.
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
Yea whatever. Again I like whatever post I want. Pretty lame of your to follow my actions and stalk which posts i like only because you are bitter that literally nobody likes your posts or agree with your opinion.

As for your attempt to play hobby psychologist, you are wrong as always. I do not hate Hingis, I do not care about her at all. if you read my post history you would see that I never ever mentioned her in any post in almost 4 years in which I am posting here. She is not particularly interesting topic for most people in this forum as she is only a borderline WTA ATG far away from a GOAT candidate. The only reason I engaged in conversation about her is because of your delusional statements that she could beat prime Federer or peak Djokovic. Had you stated the same about Graf, Serena or whoever I would have reacted the same. My only bad on this was actually that I tried to take you seriously and even gave you arguments for something that should be clear to everyone anyways - should have known you cannot argue with a fanboy.

Anyways as I already said, conversation is over now. If you want to continue playing the forums clown and believe that Hingis is the greatest of all time and suspect double accounts if nobody agrees with you please go ahead.
I'm not following anyone. You're showing up literally everywhere I post about Hingis, to talk down on her on Like posts doing the same. You call that me stalking you?

Well, that's what I figured. You haven't posted about her in- ever- and now you've lingered on Hingis discussions 3-5 times in about a month. You can call me a fanboy if you want. That's the standard go-to. What I will say is I do like all the attention you're devoting to her. Believe me, I agree. Once you go down the Hingis-Graf rabbit hole, there's no turning back. So I don't think you will post on this, mon meilleur pote, but I've got the distinct feeling you're going to keep reading my posts on Hingis out of plain curiosity, and I'm flattered in advance, but just keep in mind that she was, in all actual and recorded fact, officially screwed in this scenario. And you've just gone out of your way to publicly agree with a self-proclaimed 51-year-old whose first post on TTW was to insultingly thrash the TC who did nothing to deserve it, who types "LOL!" "haters," "childish fanboy talking trash," and jokes that not only was Graf a good sport for not tracing where she believed the mark was (which is clay protocol) but that Hingis was scared to be punched in the face. The Hingis-Graf rabbit hole is deep, sir. Remember: There's no turning back.

By the way, I'm with you that there's no point in continuing a conversation here, when you still have it in your ears that I'm claiming her as 'the greatest,' when I replied straightforward to your loaded question literally two weeks ago to tell you that the 'greatest' was objectively Court and personally Serena, but I get your messaging. And you've got yourself a deal: I'll project your Hingis sentiments so you don't have to.
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
So do you like her after 1997 or not like her? She did not have too many chances for a grand slam title after this, or you're perhaps mostly accounting for doubles? I cannot see any alleged cloroxing from the Martina you had earlier admitted to be "fat" and so on, and whom you said cared too much about dyeing her hair. If Capriati had tremendous mental fortitude, it was less so than Graf's in this era; and that of Martina was below theirs. I make no excuses for Steffi Graf in this match, as you by now can openly see. I'm also grateful to have you join the discussion to offer insight that I hope has turned some opinions on the topic, though it cannot change the past. For how terribly she was treated, Martina had been the underdog of the year since January by your claims, and she knew that there was hostility towards her as she confronted Steffi in their final. The biasedness of the calls weren't new to her, and she should have known what the equally biased crowd would do to her if she had opted to cross the net as she did.

Please don't mistake this for my saying she should not have. However, if she had done so and pointed at the mark, and then she returned to her post, she would not likely have suffered a penalty. I may have missed this angle, but I believe part of the issue was that she held up the game. Everyone wants to see a match. This led to the outburst Graf gave her before the final point, it appears. One can expect to be booed for crossing over the net. That is a part of the match as she made it, and it was for the majority Graf's wrongdoing, but the child evidently was not thinking anything through to expect that everything would remain calm or that she would receive an abundance of cheers for "challenging the authority", and that unfortunately manifests as a form of lapsing concentration, or simply common sense, during a match. I will respond to the rest as soon as I can, as work has been fairly hectic as of recent.
I don't care either way about most players. I don't know them- I don't feel personally about them. It's about her game. Her game was fantastic in '97. It was otherworldly in January. Sometime around March, she changed her racket again, and she played a little differently. Not consciously, but she wasn't finding lines as easier. No big deal- she was still a phenom. In '98, she changed her racket again, and her already-suffering game fell even more if you ask me. Hingis in '98 was very sporadic and had moments of near-'97 brilliance + moments of '99 slumping. '99 was on average her better year as far as form goes, but only by a few matches.

What I'm saying is any Hingis after late-'97, where she was already noticeably gaining weight, pales in comparison from an objective playing standpoint. Some people can't find their form after they lose it for an extended time. Some say it's mental, but the longer you're in a mental lapse, the more the lapse becomes muscle memory. Hingis'd worked her ass off to get to the '97 level. That, and the result, is where my respect comes from.

At your Capriati point. The '98 Hingis was better than the '02 Hingis. Hingis in '00 was superior to both but had her slumping moments too, and she treated Henin pretty badly. Henin was superior to the Capriati we're talking. I think that sums things up. The Hingis of '98 made no excuses for why she was losing- she said the competition was getting better, but she still mostly blamed herself for being complacent compared to the year before. Her problems were deeper than that, but she hadn't degraded in and out to the point you're talking. By the time we travel to '02, it's some of that but mostly flipped for the other side: they're bigger than me, badder than me, better than me, all that good stuff. They were better to an extent- not nearly 100%, more like 60-70% at her absolute worse, but the issue was she was saying they were intrinsically better and less to do with things she caused. In '96 going into '97, she said she didn't give a damn if she were #1 or not. She specifically compared herself to Graf and Seles, saying she wasn't like them. In '97, the #1 was sweet to her, but it came by default with the slams and all her other titles. In '98 and beyond, as she started losing everything, she put more focus on the #1 title. Understandable. People knew she wasn't winning A, B, or C tournament- losing the #1 ranking she'd always held by thousands of points even in her slumping, that was harder to escape.

I'm making no excuses for Hingis either. It was her issue to handle however she wanted. Some players are going to be 'needles,' we'll put it, and it's up to you how you react. All I'm saying is she, first, wasn't worse. And second, she was only minutely to blame for the incident. She can 100% blame herself, but that's her subjectivity. She factually was on the receiving end of abuse, and she lashed out ungraciously. But the abuse did come to her.

If it sounds like I'm evading your point, I'm not. I do advocate playing as dirty as possible and living lovely with it. Hit 50 underarm serves. Wear her bad knees out. Smack the ball right at her and dare her to come to the net. Pulverize her backhand with the junkest lobs. Obviously, she wasn't in the right frame of mind to do that. She has more shame than me, because the minute I'm cheated on a call, I make it as miserable for the other person as possible. You ideally want to go out making the other person regret every second of it, else you're just depressed the entire time. The fact that Hingis went and did what she did without realizing how she'd respond, that indicates she wasn't thinking about what she was doing. You can lame her for it just fine, but it doesn't mean much to me: I count doubles, and Hingis has more slams. She also pigeoned Graf in their exos. And if we want to grant this win to Graf, she earned nothing since the crowd lifted her to her new heights, but it's clear that Hingis played at the higher level for most of the match, and all I care about is the 'BOAT,' not the 'GOAT'.

The ending Graf against the beginning Hingis would've been a slightly better match in this venue, and Graf would've won. But the full Hingis never showed up. She sloppily toyed around because she was nervous- that she could afford to do that and still almost win, three points away, tells me all I need to know. I still liked Graf more up to that point, but the match flipped my opinion. You won't get much of that online. Like you saw, it'll be those claiming to be, "The biggest Graf fans, and you're not a REAL Graf fan, and Graf kicks the Hingis ass with class," and so on. But people like me do exist. Hingis outplayed Graf and had more integrity, but Graf outthought Hingis, and the result was what it was. That's why the number of Grand Slams won isn't close to the best metric for what makes one player 'better' than another. The only metric is who had the better shots for their time and the most versatile style.
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
I've at last got a break from work and can finish my reply. It took forever to remember the formatting all over again; so please excuse me if sections are out of place.
No- you can see I'm the same way.

I'm aware that Martina seriously injured herself by the 2000's. What I find interesting is the comparison between the two types of injuries. In the time that she was losing, she was facing competition similar to what Graf had provided. It seemed as though there were many of these heavy hitters for her to face now, compared to in the past. I would venture to suggest this accelerated her injuries, as she was required to utilize her retrieval skills far more often than she would have wished.

However, I'm struggling to understand your point here (though I hold the pun in high regard). If this is the inferior version of the lady, then would you not be stating that lack of health signified a future where she would be taken by Graf if they had continued to play? I believe that Steffi showed a astonishing sense for recovering from rehabilitation, and it pains me to say (figuratively) that Martina did not display this same knack for recovery at all. The purpose of Steffi's retirement is by her formal words, a lack of playing motivation.
You're right too. It's the same source. The more you end up moving, the more your injuries worsen. The more they worsen, the more it hurts. The more it hurts, the more small steps you have to take: the more you end up moving.

Rehabilitation is mostly what they tell you to do. But that's the point, see. Hingis' injuries were rehabilitatable, but it's much harder to recover from them when you're having to walk on your feet, like I said. It got to where Hingis needed crutches. This is just from taking any kind of steps. Chasing down tennis balls wears her sole lining faster, but she couldn't even go on nature walks after a span of failures in '01. Just a minor rehab after that season was enough for her to get into the '02 Melbourne finals, which should spell some things out, and her injuries flared up again, right after the season. Surgeries could fix the 'stacked' injuries her root injuries caused, but they couldn't fix her root injuries. She's still root-injured, today. I think I told you that's part of why she didn't return to singles in the '10s.

This actually has a degree of believability to me now that you've elaborated. You've shown me a new perspective on the subject and her character, and I do thank you for it in earnest. All the more impressive when taking into account she was the younger friend. However, maybe you should ask her just to be sure. :p
Oh, she already told me.

So in this case, my question to you is this: let's assume that she did retain the motivation to progress the stages. We can figure that she defeated Graf sometime early on or even towards the end of the tournament. If she had met Dokic in the same fashion within the final round of the tournament, would you see events playing out in the same manner? Why or why not? Apologies for formatting this as an essay, although it is a bit of a loaded question to forewarn you.
Well, I don't need body paragraphs for this one. Whatever motivation Hingis had, despite Graf on the other draw, was killed when she drew Dokic. Like I said, she didn't want Dokic to suffer over a match. Whether she threw the match because of Dokic or because of Dokic among other reasons, Dokic's draw was just another factor of the constant bad luck that Hingis was facing, that she commented on, and that she played some part in setting off but not always (like with this Dokic). Hingis' throwing the match so utterly tells me she wanted to lose, and her knowledge of and sympathy towards Dokic's home life tells me she didn't want to cause Dokic any pain. If we're to say Hingis would choose the trophy over Dokic, that'd mean we're saying she didn't undergo a mental metamorphosis- she actually regressed. I don't think even the Hingis of '95 would've wanted to beat Dokic if she knew what she did in '99, which is that Dokic's father doled out various cruel punishments to Dokic for losing, not limited to beating her with his fists. You also have to factor in Hingis' own father situation, as the 100% opposite of Dokic's. Saying yes to that title is sociopathic.

I don't entirely understand your meaning here. Were you proposing that she kept the ball in play for Venus's sake? I find is difficult to believe if so, but I would like to verify if this is what you meant. There is no reason to give up any advantage, in a final round for the USO that way. Moreover, I do recall her stating that they did not get along too well in comparison with her and Serena. In any case, how does this relate to the Martina of 1999 and Dokic? I don't follow. You said her 1999 form was vastly lesser. Was her increased fitness able to maintain her a consistent playing level?
Yes, you'd see Venus hitting bizarre shots that Hingis knew would open the court for an easy winner, and she'd respond by hitting it right back to Venus so Venus could catch her breath and try and hit another winner on her. Just for entertainment. She even laughed and took a fake swing at a shot Venus hit clearly out. Hingis in the '97 USO was her at her second-best since before the equestrian fall, according to her. Was she above her Melbourne self? No, but that's a very tough lassie in Flushing, something to compete with Graf and Seles at their best, but with less effort. Even her post-quote pretty much said it:

I just was kind of trying to hit the ball back, let her make something out there.
My point was just to show you what she could do. That Venus was better than Dokic. Hingis in '99 was worse than two years ago, but she had relatively the same anticipation. That's giving you the results you saw almost every other time they played after that Wimbledon, when Hingis didn't have any personal inhibitions.


That is true indeed. I too haven't forgotten her crying on air. That entire season was a turbulence of emotions for so many involved. And lol -- believe it or not, I'm rather certain I DO remember that factoid regarding the "doing the chores" from one of the issues I read during my time on the East Coast. So I at least know you're not making that up! ;)
Yes, doing the dishes, cutting that intractable yard, and I actually knew which of these came first when these events were new. The good days of tennis, where the #1 player still did chores around the house.

I find this interesting. What is the reason that you're saying she increased her game solely to have a rematch against Steffi Graf? They did play in the Chase Championships, but are you stating this match was the only reason she trained so allegedly much? Or is it a combination of this and the media influence that was mentioned earlier? By 1999, I could understand the latter. Otherwise, I seem to remember that she was rather aimless and merely enjoying a life in 1997. In fact, I think you said something to that effect when Dragomir was referenced.
100%. After losing in the YEC in such an embarrassing way, she tripled her fitness training so she could beat Graf with superior conditioning in the next season. Graf wasn't good enough to meet Martinka. The comparisons with Graf didn't mean much to her at that point, because Martinka wasn't the #1 rank player. The "transitional" claims hadn't started. Besides that, you're right, except she was trying to do her thing and not care about hearing Graf brought up since Graf couldn't play anyway. The '99 Wimbledon was worse for her because she'd had her best chance weeks ago, and squandered it, and had to hope for another miracle chance. We all know she played better, but most people only care about the winner. That's easier for brains to digest than how the match actually went.

If one considers her reaction to be a part of the game, then there is honestly no excuse for how she handled the situation. She should have known that she was the underdog judging by her prior matches, and she should have foreseen what turned out to be unforeseeable to her. It isn't fair, and make no mistake that it mars Steffi Graf's career; but I would argue that the ability to recognize the situations is just as important in certain tennis matches then the level of one's tennis on its own. We can both agree that Martina played better tennis on that day, but she lost a match that she by all means deserved to win due to that missing half. I admit that picturing a cheeky Martina dancing with Agassi at Wimbledon puts a smile on my face. That plausibly would not have happened some years ago. Anywho, as long as Sampras lived, there was no chance of that happening.
Well, I told you how I felt about that. She didn't have bad judgment- she literally wasn't thinking. She said it in her interview(s). That's no excuse, and she paid for it, but all I care about is that one player played better, and one player cheated. I want to know who's the best in a neutral environment. The cheating and antics and tomfoolery only serve to cloud that consensus. Not like it'd matter anyway because, like I said, they didn't meet on their best days. After the YEC which was still pre-Martinka, they only met when they were both injured and/or slumping.
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
I can agree to the first part of this statement, but the second I see as contradictory. You had remarked earlier that the sole mission of the kid who eventually became Martinka was to one day avenge her loss to Steffi Graf. By this logic, how can she have a desire to want to play everybody equally? It sounds as though she was dying to play one person more than anyone if we're to take what you say at face value.
She wanted to beat Graf in particular, her words from '97, but she wasn't dying to do it. She already thought she could in '97, and she could've easily done it in '97 since that Graf was past her prime. I know people got pissy when Hingis said this, but it's the truth. It's no gut punch either. If anything, it justifies a kid winning. No one can be in their prime forever. She was getting old and more injured- these were the facts. If Hingis said, "I can beat Graf now, you know she's aging and sick all the time, and I can actually beat her in her best game back in the day," we'd have a different discussion. But Hingis wasn't stupid enough to say she'd beat on the prime Graf. People were stupid enough to believe she meant that.

The real point is, Hingis wanted to beat everyone and Graf most of all, but she didn't take the budding media rivalry any personal way insofar that by the time they were playing in this RG, she was feeling pressured to win against Graf, but Graf was feeling vindictive and took Hingis' presence personally. It's much more pathetic comparison because you'd expect it to be the younger one who's taking things beyond the sport, based on media hype. By the time Hingis took anything personally with Graf, the authorities were against her, and in a few seconds everyone else was visibly against her, and she broke down because didn't know how to handle all this blatant opposition in such a rapid, successive fashion. Had she had preparation for it ala Mauresmo, or had she'd that same, sullen, s***** Graf-ish attitude towards Graf herself, she would've behaved much more seriously and shut Graf down without any of the childishness and time wasting. We rarely got that seriousness from Hingis because she had no reason to take any of these rivalries direly like Graf or Novotna or Venus or Schnyder, and she mostly played tennis for fun- to be "the best" as a broad concept.

Just so you know, there were no hard feelings intended with any of my posts as of late. I'm just having a little fun as I presume you are with some of the colorful rhetoric. In all truthfulness, I appreciate the flavor you bring to this forum, and I'm finding myself posting more as of late. How much of it is you and this thread, there is some factor to be sure as I've intended to post something like this topic for a couple of years now. Whether you've entirely meant your Hingis posts or not, your theme is far more interesting than Federerbestclass's. It's most certainly clever to boost a player who went on a humongous winning streak (with bad shoes) before becoming injured, of no one else.
No, I don't take grudges from anything. Even when I say I'm mad, I forget within a few hours. Just don't compare me to a Federer troll, if that's alright with you. I post about many people here. Hingis had the most complete narrative out of any tennis player, and that's why I use her as a general analogy.
 
... But people like me do exist. Hingis outplayed Graf and had more integrity, but Graf outthought Hingis, and the result was what it was. That's why the number of Grand Slams won isn't close to the best metric for what makes one player 'better' than another. The only metric is who had the better shots for their time and the most versatile style.
To call Hingis more integer than Graf is hilarious.
Please rewatched how Hingis behaved through the whole match. Laughing derisively when Graf hit a good/lucky shot, smashing her racquet, whining, insulting Graf with those underhand serves. Her crossing the net after this infamous point was only the icing on the cake.
As one newsmagazine described this encounter aptly - it was indeed "good vs. evil" if there ever was something like that in a tennis match.
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
To call Hingis more integer than Graf is hilarious.
Please rewatched how Hingis behaved through the whole match. Laughing derisively when Graf hit a good/lucky shot
Hingis laughed at everything, including herself. I showed people her laughing at a bottle cap while Seles was whooping her ass. Unlike you, I followed her (and everyone else's) interviews. So I know her actual reasons for behaving how she did.

The rest of that is gloss we've gone over, and you're adding nothing new.
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
Which was not my intent.
It was just meant as a reminder since some of her fanboys sometimes forget it.
You didn't remind anyone of anything. You created an account just to praise Graf, like you're doing in the Evert thread, saying she'd take the best of Evert on clay, and to argue with anyone who dares criticize her. The guy you called a 'fake fan' or other, he'd been in flame wars over Graf years before your first post. You even talked about Graf punching Hingis. You expect that comment to just disappear? Too on the nose. Way too on the nose for someone who'd allegedly want to care about his account's standing.

I only replied again because that first part with the laughter was sort of newish, but I'll leave it with this if you've got nothing else: she could be as childish and rude and petulant as she wanted, and it'd pale in comparison to the comparison of her drawing a line and pointing to where Graf's shot was incorrectly called out (to mark that it was in), and Graf's stepping away and looking guiltily in the dirt when Hingis had merely expected the same basic respect in return.

She didn't want Graf to 'like' her. She wanted Graf to be 'honest' and play a 'fair match'. Behaviors are about 'liking' someone. But this thread isn't about 'behaviors'. It's about a 'lack of basic moral integrity' to blatantly cheat a kid in front of millions, probably over something simple and petty, like her juggling for the crowd in their last match.
 
You didn't remind anyone of anything. You created an account just to praise Graf, like you're doing in the Evert thread, saying she'd take the best of Evert on clay, and to argue with anyone who dares criticize her. The guy you called a 'fake fan' or other, he'd been in flame wars over Graf years before your first post. You even talked about Graf punching Hingis. You expect that comment to just disappear? Too on the nose. Way too on the nose for someone who'd allegedly want to care about his account's standing.

I only replied again because that first part with the laughter was sort of newish, but I'll leave it with this if you've got nothing else: she could be as childish and rude and petulant as she wanted, and it'd pale in comparison to the comparison of her drawing a line and pointing to where Graf's shot was incorrectly called out (to mark that it was in), and Graf's stepping away and looking guiltily in the dirt when Hingis had merely expected the same basic respect in return.

She didn't want Graf to 'like' her. She wanted Graf to be 'honest' and play a 'fair match'. Behaviors are about 'liking' someone. But this thread isn't about 'behaviors'. It's about a 'lack of basic moral integrity' to blatantly cheat a kid in front of millions, probably over something simple and petty, like her juggling for the crowd in their last match.

You seem to be quite a fanatic.
Which can be seen by your ludicrous footer claim that Hingis "in the '97 Sydney and Australian Open" was "the highest level of WTA/ATP tennis play".
Come on, Martina beat only ONE top 10 player in her matches there - Irena Spirlea (with 7-5 6-2). Lol!

You claim that Graf "blatantly cheated" your poor Martinka and "looked guilty in the dirt" says far more about you than about Graf. Who generally is indeed considered to be one of the classiest and most integer persons to ever lift a racquet. In stark contrast to your fave.
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
You seem to be quite a fanatic.
Which can be seen by your ludicrous footer claim that Hingis "in the '97 Sydney and Australian Open" was "the highest level of WTA/ATP tennis play".
Come on, Martina beat only ONE top 10 player in her matches there - Irena Spirlea (with 7-5 6-2). Lol!

You claim that Graf "blatantly cheated" your poor Martinka and "looked guilty in the dirt" says far more about you than about Graf. Who generally is indeed considered to be one of the classiest and most integer persons to ever lift a racquet. In stark contrast to your fave.
So if you're not going to respond to what I said, I think we're done here.

Though just so you know, Hingis also remarked in her post-conference that Graf looked down and away after the line challenge. When the reporters asked why Graf might've done that, Hingis said she didn't know and couldn't think straight because she was shocked. It pays to know history.
 
So if you're not going to respond to what I said, I think we're done here.

Though just so you know, Hingis also remarked in her post-conference that Graf looked down and away after the line challenge. When the reporters asked why Graf might've done that, Hingis said she didn't know and couldn't think straight because she was shocked. It pays to know history.
Graf looked down because she was embarrassed that a professional tennis player would behave like Hingis.
Martina's behavior was cringeworthy indeed.

Yes, we are done here. Fanatics like you should be avoided.
 

JasonZ

Semi-Pro
That's what I love most about Steffi Graf - that she still drives the sort of people I despise nuts.
Successful, beautiful, rich, beloved like no other woman tennis player in the history of the open era. That is simply too much for those fanatics.
to mention graf and beautiful in one sentense is ridiculous. she is only beautiful when compared to sanchez vicario or other wta monsters from the 90s.
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
It does seem to me that Graf polarises opinion more than any other tennis player (at least elite player) male or female that is discussed on at least a semi-frequent basis, and even more so than active legends like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic or Serena.

Of course there are plenty of people who supported her, were neutral towards her or disliked her which is perfectly normal. But I have come across such a large number of people who have either been blind fanatics / worshippers of her which is very different to simply being a fan (including numerous posters on this forum in the past that have been banned), or have really intensely despised her far beyond just wanting her to lose tennis matches (likewise including numerous posters / user accounts previously banned from here).

The Graf vs. Seles debates on this forum from about 2007-2010 in-particular (I joined in 2007) were by far the most vicious ones that I've read; the current repetitive Federer vs. Nadal vs. Djokovic debates are tame in comparison.
 
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Jason Swerve

Professional
It does seem to me that Graf polarises opinion more than any other tennis player (at least elite player) male or female that is discussed on at least a semi-frequent basis, and even more so than active legends like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic or Serena.
She's also the source of absurd flip flopping.



 
It does seem to me that Graf polarises opinion more than any other tennis player (at least elite player) male or female that is discussed on at least a semi-frequent basis, and even more so than active legends like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic or Serena.

Of course there are plenty of people who supported her, were neutral towards her or disliked her which is perfectly normal. But I have come across such a large number of people who have either been blind fanatics / worshippers of her which is very different to simply being a fan (including numerous posters on this forum in the past that have been banned), or have really intensely despised her far beyond just wanting her to lose tennis matches (likewise including numerous posters / user accounts previously banned from here).

The Graf vs. Seles debates on this forum from about 2007-2010 in-particular (I joined in 2007) were by far the most vicious ones that I've read; the current repetitive Federer vs. Nadal vs. Djokovic debates are tame in comparison.
The explanation seems to be that Graf is very popular and well liked, even today. "Women want to be like her, men want to be with her". :)

That is a provocation for some fans of other players (Navratilova, Seles, Hingis, Willams come to mind) who feel that their fave is marginalized compared to the great Steffi. So they dish it out on poor Steffi. I had the pleasure to meet her two years ago at a sponsor's meeting. What a modest and lovely person! All the people in the room were utterly mesmerized by her. And almost forgot to listen what she had to say (she spoke about her charity work). And she looked gorgeous!

Perfection often creates adversity, it is what it is.
 

Devtennis01

Hall of Fame
It does seem to me that Graf polarises opinion more than any other tennis player (at least elite player) male or female that is discussed on at least a semi-frequent basis, and even more so than active legends like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic or Serena.

Of course there are plenty of people who supported her, were neutral towards her or disliked her which is perfectly normal. But I have come across such a large number of people who have either been blind fanatics / worshippers of her which is very different to simply being a fan (including numerous posters on this forum in the past that have been banned), or have really intensely despised her far beyond just wanting her to lose tennis matches (likewise including numerous posters / user accounts previously banned from here).

The Graf vs. Seles debates on this forum from about 2007-2010 in-particular (I joined in 2007) were by far the most vicious ones that I've read; the current repetitive Federer vs. Nadal vs. Djokovic debates are tame in comparison.
Graf really sets people off. Had the whole Seles tragedy not occurred, I think she'd have retired in 97 and gone done as just outside the GOAT race, like 7 or 8th place. She'd barely get a mention on these forums other than kudos for 1988.
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
Graf really sets people off. Had the whole Seles tragedy not occurred, I think she'd have retired in 97 and gone done as just outside the GOAT race, like 7 or 8th place. She'd barely get a mention on these forums other than kudos for 1988.
Why '97 I'm wondering?

hingis was robbed. graf was a cheater, always.
All you have to do is compare this moment to Seles' sticking up for Hingis the year before:

 

Devtennis01

Hall of Fame
Why '97 I'm wondering?


All you have to do is compare this moment to Seles' sticking up for Hingis the year before:

I think she had all those injuries around then. I think if Seles had stayed around, Graf would have had to work very hard and would have still ended up destroying her body. I don't think she'd have been motivated to come back after 97 especially as she was late 20s and 91-96 being second best to Seles would have been disheartening.
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
I think she had all those injuries around then. I think if Seles had stayed around, Graf would have had to work very hard and would have still ended up destroying her body. I don't think she'd have been motivated to come back after 97 especially as she was late 20s and 91-96 being second best to Seles would have been disheartening.
Sounds in the green to me. I didn't even consider that. No way was she surviving all of those rallies against Seles' superior groundstrokes. That summer '96 already did a number on her, and the YEC against Hingis hurt her too, as much as people think it was only Hingis' fitness that suffered. Graf then was just better at playing through the pain.
 
Graf really sets people off. Had the whole Seles tragedy not occurred, I think she'd have retired in 97 and gone done as just outside the GOAT race, like 7 or 8th place. She'd barely get a mention on these forums other than kudos for 1988.
Why would Steffi have retired in 1997 without the "Seles tragedy"? She always liked competition and would have loved to beat Seles many more times than the 5 of 7 times she beat her during Seles's time as No. 1. Maybe Steffi even would have continued to play and won many of the slams in the early 00s.

And what - in which forums is she barely mentioned? Why do you think Serena is desperately trying to break Court's record? Because she thinks Court is a danger to her GOAT ambitions??? No, its Steffi, always Steffi behind the seven hills who is widely considered to be the GOAT in almost all countries on this planet. Which drives Serena crazy.
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
Why would Steffi have retired in 1997 without the "Seles tragedy"? She always liked competition and would have loved to beat Seles many more times than the 5 of 7 times she beat her during Seles's time as No. 1. Maybe Steffi even would have continued to play and won many of the slams in the early 00s.

And what - in which forums is she barely mentioned? Why do you think Serena is desperately trying to break Court's record? Because she thinks Court is a danger to her GOAT ambitions??? No, its Steffi, always Steffi behind the seven hills who is widely considered to be the GOAT in almost all countries on this planet. Which drives Serena crazy.
Let's stay on topic, please. Remember, this is about the '99 FO. And being that she barely beat the injured Hingis and indicated being in pain even then, 'many slams' in the early '00s doesn't sound feasible. What we know for sure is she said several times that she expected to lose this final and considered it a lucky break that Hingis lost her nerve to the jeers and opposition- that bodes poorly for the rest of the field that was better than this Hingis. Matter fact, Graf should've done like Oprah and given out sums of her money to everyone in the crowd instead of that sappy speech.
 

Devtennis01

Hall of Fame
Why would Steffi have retired in 1997 without the "Seles tragedy"? She always liked competition and would have loved to beat Seles many more times than the 5 of 7 times she beat her during Seles's time as No. 1. Maybe Steffi even would have continued to play and won many of the slams in the early 00s.

And what - in which forums is she barely mentioned? Why do you think Serena is desperately trying to break Court's record? Because she thinks Court is a danger to her GOAT ambitions??? No, its Steffi, always Steffi behind the seven hills who is widely considered to be the GOAT in almost all countries on this planet. Which drives Serena crazy.
Maybe she would, maybe she wouldn't. Neither of us will be right as we cannot know. I also meant Steffi would not be mentioned had she not amassed so many slams. She would have finished with 15 or 16 I think had Seles been able to see out her career normally. She'd have been just below Evert and Navratilova. Don't see many people getting too hot under the collar about them in 2021.
 
Maybe she would, maybe she wouldn't. Neither of us will be right as we cannot know. I also meant Steffi would not be mentioned had she not amassed so many slams. She would have finished with 15 or 16 I think had Seles been able to see out her career normally. She'd have been just below Evert and Navratilova. Don't see many people getting too hot under the collar about them in 2021.
It is always beyond me how someone really can think that Seles would have taken away 6 or 7 slams. A Seles coping with a dying father and an eating disorder, OMG.
For the sake of it - in which 6 or 7 slams would your fave have beaten Graf? And why?

Can't you channel your hate towards Graf in some other way? Maybe buy a Graf doll and stick a fork into it?
 

Devtennis01

Hall of Fame
It is always beyond me how someone really can think that Seles would have taken away 6 or 7 slams. A Seles coping with a dying father and an eating disorder, OMG.
For the sake of it - in which 6 or 7 slams would your fave have beaten Graf? And why?

Can't you channel your hate towards Graf in some other way? Maybe buy a Graf doll and stick a fork into it?
I don't hate Graf.
 

Graf1stClass

Semi-Pro
It is always beyond me how someone really can think that Seles would have taken away 6 or 7 slams. A Seles coping with a dying father and an eating disorder, OMG.
For the sake of it - in which 6 or 7 slams would your fave have beaten Graf? And why?

Can't you channel your hate towards Graf in some other way? Maybe buy a Graf doll and stick a fork into it?
I've just logged in to see these -- are you attempting to render my topic locked? Can you please refrain from accusing all of us of hating a person because we disagree with your views? I would appreciate it.
 

Graf1stClass

Semi-Pro
Let's stay on topic, please. Remember, this is about the '99 FO. And being that she barely beat the injured Hingis and indicated being in pain even then, 'many slams' in the early '00s doesn't sound feasible. What we know for sure is she said several times that she expected to lose this final and considered it a lucky break that Hingis lost her nerve to the jeers and opposition- that bodes poorly for the rest of the field that was better than this Hingis. Matter fact, Graf should've done like Oprah and given out sums of her money to everyone in the crowd instead of that sappy speech.
I will attempt to respond to your messages in a more timely manner, but this phrase caught my attention right away.

You stated Martina as having said "I just was kind of trying to hit the ball back, let her make something out there."

In my opinion, this is less a case of protecting Venus and more of attempting to let her commit unforced errors. In that regard, it appears to be that even this early, she was playing the type of game that you dislike.
 
I've just logged in to see these -- are you attempting to render my topic locked? Can you please refrain from accusing all of us of hating a person because we disagree with your views? I would appreciate it.
The way you deny Graf integrity and depict her as a "cheater" for her impeccable (according to all the median and 99 % of fans) behavior during her 1999 FO final can only be explained by that - hate towards a classy and integer person. Your thread is just meant to provoke, a lame troll attempt.
 

Jason Swerve

Professional
I will attempt to respond to your messages in a more timely manner, but this phrase caught my attention right away.

You stated Martina as having said "I just was kind of trying to hit the ball back, let her make something out there."

In my opinion, this is less a case of protecting Venus and more of attempting to let her commit unforced errors. In that regard, it appears to be that even this early, she was playing the type of game that you dislike.
It's the sadistic play we've been talking about. She did exactly what she said. Hit the ball back to Venus and didn't go for winners, letting Venus mess herself up. If Venus hit errors anyway, and she did, that was her own weakness. If Hingis hit winners back to Venus and Venus still screwed it up, same thing. All it meant for Hingis is that she could have her way and force Venus to implode even when she gave Venus chances. Obviously not the level of Hingis we had in this round, but even this frail Hingis had Graf giving up hope from the inverse of the same strategy. '97 Hingis played counterpunching on purpose to give Venus more of a chance. '99 Hingis counterpunched because she was nervous, and she lost herself in the flow of her counterpunching. She wasn't playing a whole match in control like the '97 Hingis did. It still trumped Graf, but you have to recollect how clay was probably Hingis' best surface, ironic as it sounds.
 

mxmx

Hall of Fame
So OP, if you're not going to respond, like I said, I will because that was insane. I can't believe I was enjoying reading this topic. Even the disagreements. Then I had to run into @Dolgopolov85 and his rebuttal above.

Sir, you got me to finally stop lurking on these parts. That's first-class, alright. Did you seriously just compare Martina Hingis and Steffi Graf's actions to Hitler and Churchill? I can't believe someone hasn't given you 'the talking to'. After this reply, I doubt you'll reply back, and that's good. I don't care what you feel about Hingis and Graf, and you can hate one and love the other till the world freezes over.

Not the point: I don't think you've ever had any real life presence to be commenting on this discussion, to any extent.



In the first place, you're massively exposing yourself with these 'bias' claims. She didn't KNOW where the damned mark was, he told you. Graf DID because she both LOOKED AT AND HIT THE BALL. When Hingis had the chance to call a shot out before the umpire scouted? She did. I just re-watched this very match to make sure. It's a sad day when a little kid, still going through puberty, has more refinement than a grown woman who's petty thieving to snag Grand Slam points like CVS coupons. You're a Graf fan, so you're of course going to shield Graf and blame the umpire.

Here's the kicker: The umpire already called Hingis after the match and apologized for screwing her over, and Hingis forgave her. Did that change anything to you folks? No. So, you know who should've apologized? Graf, for hiding behind the umpire. No integrity whatsoever when she's getting pasted.

I'll keep it sincere with you too: Hingis was not trying in that first set. She was pulling a USO '97 final and got too cute, making it 6-4. If she were struggling from the start and she was barely holding a lead- this chaos wouldn't have happened. We're well aware that the Graf of old would've handed this injured Hingis a loss. Hingis stated she was just finding her mojo the start of that year after her '98 slump. But this Graf had movement issues. Then confidence issues, that led to Hingis' getting as cocky as she did. In a neutral zone, without the Graf-worshipping crowd, Hingis was the hilariously-better player that day, and it wasn't even close. I remember it being said online. Even the people in the locker room and reception area said that Hingis was better. Graf raised her level from poor to average with crowd support, and the negative atmosphere made Hingis completely tank. Before that, most of her lost points came from mucking around to torture Graf instead of putting Graf away. She did the same thing to ASV in the prior Wimbledon, wanting to beat her foe at their own game instead of just playing her attacking game and getting it over with. She did it with Lindsay in the slams in '97 before Lindsay got fitter. It was her thing. Stupid, but that showed a difference in ability you somehow aren't noticing.

But that's not here: We all know the ice queen who couldn't even call Seles one single time after the stabbing she caused by consecutively losing, couldn't possibly have the humility to tell a 19 year old, "Sorry for not speaking up back there."



You read that AMAZINGLY wrong! Unbelievable!! He corrected you, sir, because you got the rationale about why the events happened completely mixed up. She didn't just cross the net because she 'wanted' to. She tried to tell the umpire where the mark was, and the umpire loosely said, "I saw nothing. We see a mark that looks out, but the first call's what I'm gonna go with in case." So, she walked away while Hingis tried to call her back in shock. As if the world were gonna end if they didn't resume that minute. The dude narrated it pretty right, son. Try listening instead of proving you weren't there and never looked at the damn match.

The umpire, she did not have to ignore Hingis like this, and she was just being a jerk in the moment. Everyone BUT the clowns in the stands saw how Hingis was getting screwed. Don't think you can weasel out the 'But excuse-' card because he proved you weren't there at the time and conducted insufficient research after the deal. I'm not about to speculate on your age, but you most definitely haven't seen that match for one reason or another, or you saw it once long ago and don't want to ruin the pseudo-Graf nostalgia you created in your head. Just go back and take an objective look if it's the second one.



Irony all over. You're not even getting what a 'goalposts' is. Who was the one who brought up Mauresmo? I'll go out on a limb and say that was you. What on Earth and in Hell does Mauresmo have to do with Graf not calling a ball in because she's a cheater? Were you trying to say that's why the French crowd booed her? Because it wasn't, Hingis said it wasn't, and he explained why it wasn't.

I'm presuming you're as old as you say you are. Treat this as a reminder if you just...forgot somewhere down the line: Aside from other, random booings she got in that RG, Hingis was booed twice before this match when she played Mauresmo. One of those sorry booings was indoors, and she still almost won it so they heckled her louder to break her down in 3 sets. The reports from that match, I've got saved- you couldn't hear anything. The booing was so loud for Hingis and the cheering was so loud for Mauresmo on every single action they took, the sound echoed worse than Davis Cup from the moment Hingis was booed when she walked on the court. Hingis compared it a soccer match, and she still congratulated Mauresmo, and Mauresmo talked up that crowd in the post because she was happy to win with rabble-rousing.

That volume of booing was not this match, but her second booing was on this same center stage a week earlier, and that was the reason she froze with flashbacks. She also flashbacked in her literal post interview. The crowd was not considering Mauresmo, even so. It was about these two players, on that Saturday afternoon. Obviously, you're yourself moving the goalpost with that 'Mauresmo' talk. So don't tell the guy he didn't 'get over it' when you're talking about Mauresmo years after they both allegedly 'got over it'.



A complete and total hosing of Graf's phony attitude and also to expose certain revisionists like you, I suppose. No, Wikipedia and this forum won't always work.

You do realize Hingis stated that she saw Graf look at the shot go in, don't you? That Graf saw this and immediately turned and walked away after the 'out' call.

My word, man! She was there! Plus, you can literally see this damn thing play out exactly how she says it if you look on YouTube! It's not some huge insider secret!
This match just showed how people are like sheep. They conform and get moved by every wind of change...

People are too scared to stand for what's right. I'm sure many Hingis supporters on the day turned against her when too many started cheering for Graf.

It too reminds me of a soccer match where the team with the greater reputation and support gets the decisions their way. Graf got the decisions going her way due to pressures from the crowd as well as her reputation.

Federer and the big 3 gets the same biased treatment. The refs are the ones that cannot deal with the pressure and then caves.
 

Graf1stClass

Semi-Pro
This match just showed how people are like sheep. They conform and get moved by every wind of change...

People are too scared to stand for what's right. I'm sure many Hingis supporters on the day turned against her when too many started cheering for Graf.

It too reminds me of a soccer match where the team with the greater reputation and support gets the decisions their way. Graf got the decisions going her way due to pressures from the crowd as well as her reputation.

Federer and the big 3 gets the same biased treatment. The refs are the ones that cannot deal with the pressure and then caves.
No matter how popular Martina was, I do not believe her popularity ever rivaled that of Steffi's. She may have caught up to Steffi when she for the third time returned to tennis, but it was evident in this match that she was the underdog they did not wish to cheer for. I find this interesting -- the underdog is usually the one to receive the cheers, albeit some of her previous remarks may have deterred support from her -- ostensibly not too much, but enough support away from her to matter.

I don't care either way about most players. I don't know them- I don't feel personally about them. It's about her game. Her game was fantastic in '97. It was otherworldly in January. Sometime around March, she changed her racket again, and she played a little differently. Not consciously, but she wasn't finding lines as easier. No big deal- she was still a phenom. In '98, she changed her racket again, and her already-suffering game fell even more if you ask me. Hingis in '98 was very sporadic and had moments of near-'97 brilliance + moments of '99 slumping. '99 was on average her better year as far as form goes, but only by a few matches.
This is the center of your narrative I'm wanting to understand. You're telling me from what I see that she in 1997 had the game to beat Steffi. I understand that for the most part, and you've mostly convinced. Do note that I'm referring to this match's level.

What does not make sense to me is the purpose behind her changing such aspects of her game if she was winning. Why change her racquet? Why would she change her technique? The loss of weight is believable, as we all remember the pubic statements, but there is no reason to change the rest of your game and particularly your equipment when you are doing so well.

What I'm saying is any Hingis after late-'97, where she was already noticeably gaining weight, pales in comparison from an objective playing standpoint. Some people can't find their form after they lose it for an extended time. Some say it's mental, but the longer you're in a mental lapse, the more the lapse becomes muscle memory. Hingis'd worked her ass off to get to the '97 level. That, and the result, is where my respect comes from.
I thought you said she gained weight during that year's Wimbledon? I'm following the conversation pretty closely.

At your Capriati point. The '98 Hingis was better than the '02 Hingis. Hingis in '00 was superior to both but had her slumping moments too, and she treated Henin pretty badly. Henin was superior to the Capriati we're talking. I think that sums things up.
Fair.

I'm making no excuses for Hingis either. It was her issue to handle however she wanted. Some players are going to be 'needles,' we'll put it, and it's up to you how you react. All I'm saying is she, first, wasn't worse. And second, she was only minutely to blame for the incident. She can 100% blame herself, but that's her subjectivity. She factually was on the receiving end of abuse, and she lashed out ungraciously. But the abuse did come to her.
Yes; I didn't mean to imply you were making excuses. It's that I find I find this a two-sided nuanced subject to address. Every match has to have a winner, but every match also has to have a loser. Graf cannot beat Martina without Martina losing. Some people are wont to claim that "such and so player wasn't beaten, they lost" but that's the real excuse-making in my eyes.

If it sounds like I'm evading your point, I'm not. I do advocate playing as dirty as possible and living lovely with it. Hit 50 underarm serves. Wear her bad knees out. Smack the ball right at her and dare her to come to the net. Pulverize her backhand with the junkest lobs. Obviously, she wasn't in the right frame of mind to do that. She has more shame than me, because the minute I'm cheated on a call, I make it as miserable for the other person as possible.
I'm doubting it would make the difference in the match. You have made this point before, but I believe you're overestimating the effectiveness of these underarm serves. Martina missed her second one, and Graf was ready to retrieve it. If Martina continued to hit these serves, they would only be given Graf the advantage to hit them as hard as she could from the half court. Martina lacked to speed to scare Graf with variety, and the motions are noticeably different.

I also feel you're stressing Graf's injuries too far past Martina's, as Martina was injured to the greater degree so you claimed (I believe it), and that type of strategy involves running up to the net on most points. It would not have been a favorable strategy for her, even should the crowd have cheered on her every point.

She also pigeoned Graf in their exos.
This doesn't truly matter. It seems a bit petty, honestly.

The ending Graf against the beginning Hingis would've been a slightly better match in this venue, and Graf would've won. But the full Hingis never showed up. She sloppily toyed around because she was nervous- that she could afford to do that and still almost win, three points away, tells me all I need to know. I still liked Graf more up to that point, but the match flipped my opinion. You won't get much of that online. Like you saw, it'll be those claiming to be, "The biggest Graf fans, and you're not a REAL Graf fan, and Graf kicks the Hingis ass with class," and so on. But people like me do exist. Hingis outplayed Graf and had more integrity, but Graf outthought Hingis, and the result was what it was. That's why the number of Grand Slams won isn't close to the best metric for what makes one player 'better' than another. The only metric is who had the better shots for their time and the most versatile style.
Agreed, but you could also say that we would not have gotten to see the real Hingis anyhow because of her nervousness. We almost did not get to see the real Steffi Graf, but Hingis was supposedly the player who performed better as she grew angrier. In that case, in the final stage, it should have been the time for her indignance towards everyone to spark up some fire in her game and allow her to play her best tennis for that day. As it stood, she was much the same as a box of wet matches.
 
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