1HBH - does it matter if you don't spread back you non-hitting arm?

tank_job said:
Thanks, ok, but rotating the torso through to just before contact contact, then stopping it rotating just before contact and letting the arm swing through, then continuing to rotate it after contact seems to me to be WAY too much to think about, and I don't even see how it would be possible without having a very jerky-looking swing.

I think people just have to swing naturally by rotating their torso through the shot (so they can at least use the whole body and not just the arm in their shots) and just hope that all this stuff is happening?
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tank job, I think you'll grasp what systemic anomaly is trying to explain if you understand the physics of momentum channeling through the kinetic chain.

Generally, racquet speed is an expression of momentum being channeled into a relatively light rotating unit. This is accomplished by channeling the momentum from heavier rotating units into lighter ones. Since momentum is equal to mass * velocity, then lighter units will move faster, all else being equal. Crucially, the efficiency of this transfer depends upon the degree to which each previous (and heavier) link is allowed to slow down. If these heavier units continue to move, then there is still momentum being "wasted".

So, in the case of the 1hbh, the idea is to channel momentum from the heavy rotating hips and torso into the arm, so that all that momentum is concentrated into the rotating arm. This is not arming the ball - arming the ball means that the momentum was generated by the muscles that move the arm.

The non dominant hand moving in the opposite direction is what acts as a counter movement to the rotating hips and torso, and allows them to slow down. When they slow down, if your body is aligned correctly and your shoulder and arm loose, the momentum will naturally flow into the arm.

Because the arm and racquet weigh less than the arm + racquet + torso, there will be a boost in speed.
 
as an addendum to my previous post, I think it's important not to consciously fling the arm back to counter weight, but rather to make it a goal to keep the torso from over rotating. Hopefully, your arm will then fling back naturally as your body tries to solve this problem.

It's really no different from the leg kicking back after service contact - it is a counter rotation to prevent your torso from continuing to fall over, but it's not done consciously.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Note that Tennis Magazine calls out the bevel designations differently. However, they placement of the hand (base index knuckle) is consistent with common usage. As they show it, the image on the left is the standard Eastern Bh grip and the image on the right is the SW Bh (extreme Eastern) grip.

1337-2006_04_19_grip_guide_6(1).jpg
1337-2006_04_19_grip_guide_7.jpg
.
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^^^ No pro hits a topspin 1hbh using that grip. That is an extreme pistol grip (esp. on the right), where the index finger is spread far out from the other fingers. Holding the 1hbh this way is probably the main reason why so many rec players have a hard time hitting above their waist.

Pros keep their fingers much more together, with their heel pad much further behind the handle in relation to the index knuckle.




SystemicAnomaly said:
As I said in the previous post, the hammer grip is a bevel 2 grip -- the continental grip (or a variation of the conti grip). Think about it. When you wield a hammer , your base index knuckle would not be on the top. Placing it on the top would make hammering very awkward. The index knuckle is shifted somewhat to the side -- as it could be for the Continental grip. This is how the conti grip became to be know as the hammer or chopper grip.

I am unsure about the origin of the pistol grip terminology. I don't know anyone who uses the term and I don't believe its usage is widespread. I believe it is more commonly used to describe a table tennis grip. This makes more sense for ping pong than it does for court tennis.
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Yes, one definition of "hammer" refers to a specific continental grip.

Another usage simply refers to either: 1. All the fingers being together, or 2. the top knuckles being aligned on the same bevel. I've heard coaches use this terminology.

If you want to revisit this topic, I started a thread a few months ago called something like, "Why most eastern 1hbhs suck."

There is also a recent thread where they discussed the issue (and use the "hammer" terminology):

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=424399



SystemicAnomaly said:
The 2nd (modern) grip that BD indicates is still not quite a SW Bh grip (bevel8). It is a bevel 1 variation of the Eastern Bh grip.
.
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I was not attempting to illustrate the SW grip. I never would, since I do not advocate that grip.

What I was illustrated was the position of the heel pad, and therefore the position of the smaller knuckles on the hand.

What makes it "modern" is not the index knuckle per se, but the relative position of the heel pad or other knuckles.


In short, people who are using a pistol grip (index knuckle spread out) have their heel pad too high on the handle, and not far enough back.

The "textbook" says the heel pad should be on the same bevel as the index knuckle. However, every modern pro I've seen has their heel pad about a full bevel or more behind the knuckle. This includes federer. Doing this will move the index finger more in line with the other fingers, thus moving away from the "pistol grip."



tank_job said:
Thanks, ok, but rotating the torso through to just before contact contact, then stopping it rotating just before contact and letting the arm swing through, then continuing to rotate it after contact seems to me to be WAY too much to think about, and I don't even see how it would be possible without having a very jerky-looking swing.

I think people just have to swing naturally by rotating their torso through the shot (so they can at least use the whole body and not just the arm in their shots) and just hope that all this stuff is happening?
Click to expand...

I believe some players swing their torso through the shot more than others.

With your grip, you probably aren't wrong in swinging your torso through the ball.
 
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^ The distinction you make between the extreme Eastern Bh grip and the SW Bh grip is a good one. However, the alternate usage of the "hammer" terminology just leads to confusion. I suspect that this usage is a TW forum thing. Do you have any credible references outside of these forum pages that describe the alternate usage?

The OP, even with an extreme Eastern grip, should learn to freeze/halt the uncoiling of the torso during the forward swing (prior to contact). Henin does this quite often, if not most of the time. Once it is learned and made a habit, the OP can chose to employ it or not as he sees fit for a given situation.
 
I researched a bit further into this "pistol" and "hammer" nomenclature. I performed a Google image search on "pistol grip tennis". The only tennis images that I found were from TW forum pages. Similar results with a text search. The only exception is that the term "pistol grip" is sometimes used for table tennis. This makes more sense for ping pong than it does for tennis.

The idea of a pistol grip might help to get across the idea that the index finger is separated from the others. However, the orientation of the hand is wrong if we a talking about a continental grip or a continental grip variation. If you use the term, pistol grip, I more inclined to visualize an Eastern FH grip rather than any sort of conti grip. Now if you hold your gun rapper-style (sideways), then an Eastern BH grip might come to mind. The pistol grip terminology is probably best left to ping pong.

Now if I perform similar searches on "hammer grip tennis", I get articles and images of a continental grip from TW as well as a number of other sources.

The confusion may arise because some TW tennis players are holding their hammers incorrectly. For the standard grip on a hammer, the handle lies diagonally across the palm -- much as it does for most tennis grips. Note, in the image below that the hammer is not at a right angle to the arm -- it is more in line with the arm -- more of an extension of the arm -- just as it would be for most tennis strokes.

right1.jpg


Because of the size and the tapered nature of the hammer handle, we see only a moderate separation of the index finger from the other fingers. We might expect to see slightly more separation for a tennis continental grip (depending on the size of your hand & grip). However the basic idea is there.
 
drakulie said:
Not really necessary, but it does help to act as a balance. I rarely if ever do it,,,, I sort of just drop my left arm back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkOpbDAq2gU&list=UU0_EKwDjWc86-cju0B9rVbg&index=1&feature=plcp
Click to expand...

yeah im pretty much the same, i usually just let it drop to my side without it fanning out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5CrX6q-JEc

I find it actually difficult to fan out when i think about trying to do it.. its like my body doesnt want me to do it :) most likely some technique issue i cant identify.
 
Cheetah said:
blake flings his left arm back.
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did you watch the vid I linked?

The arm isn't completely dead, but the 'fling back' is minimal, compared to Dimitrov who almost flings his non-dominant arm back as hard as he swings his hitting arm forward.

Do you think Dimitrov's bh is more technically sound than Blake's, therefore?
 
watch a vid of blake with a better viewing angle.
the amount of left arm usage doesn't determine how good the bh is. there are tons of factors involved on how much left arm usage should be used/is used etc.
fed's backhand is better then dimitrov's and he flings his arm back less.
 
tank_job said:
Just interested to know, do you guys think Blake has a fundamentally flawed backhand (like people say Roddick does), as he rarely does the spreading back the non-hitting arm business when he hits his backhand;
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I think he lets go of his racket late in the swing. This affects other aspects of his stroke.
 
I think it prevents you from over-rotating and pulling off the ball. It helps you balance. Your front arm and the racket head are going forwards, your back arm extends back to maintain balance.

The extent you do it probably depends on the individual and what type of shot they're trying to hit. It you are hitting a cross court roller, you will rotate and come around more, and maybe not extend your back arm as much. If you're going down the line, your shot will be more linear, you will stay more side on to the net, and maybe extend your back arm more.

Here's a video of Justine Henin talking about the role of the off-arm in the one handed backhand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5HTqN12vDc
 
Henin talks about it there, but she rarely does it in actual play. Her non-dominant arm sort of twitches for balance, but is often left almost straight down beside her body;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wpK5bmtceo

&

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdDwMj3_WMA

Contrast to Dimitrov who flings it violently back;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox97-DQdm00

...which is what my coach is telling me to do, but it gives me too much to think about, it feels uncomfortable and unnatural, and results in me fvcking up (not being able to even clear the net because the power is restricted) - but he says it's the most important part of the stroke, that you fling back your non-dominant arm as fast and as much as the racket arm swings forward.
 
BevelDevil said:
Just in case someone misinterprets (??) your post:

The whole point of throwing your arm back is to inhibit upper body rotation.
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Yeah, and that doesn't seem right to me.

Robs you of power, and leaves you having to rely on the smaller muscle groups (arm, shoulder) to generate the pace rather than the larger muscle groups (legs, core) which are stronger and tire less quickly.
 
tank_job said:
...which is what my coach is telling me to do, but it gives me too much to think about, it feels uncomfortable and unnatural, and results in me fvcking up (not being able to even clear the net because the power is restricted) - but he says it's the most important part of the stroke, that you fling back your non-dominant arm as fast and as much as the racket arm swings forward.
Click to expand...

I dont think it should be a robotic thing where youre consciously trying to fling your back arm back. It should go back on its own for balance. He is probably having you exaggerate this one part of the stroke because he feels you are opening up your front shoulder too early. The one-hander does not have the same mechanics as the two handed backhand. On the two hander and the forehand you rotate your torso more in order to bring you hitting hand out front. On the one hander, your hitting hand and arm are connected to your front shoulder, so you extend your hitting arm towards the net and finish high, while staying more side on to the net.

It's just the mechanics of a one hander, don't confuse it with a two hander. Sounds like your coach is maybe having you exaggerate the off-hand part, because he feels you're opening up too early, or he could be a nut that wants every student to hit with the same robotic stroke, it's hard to tell from the information you've given us.
 
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Coiling and uncoiling of shoulder, and opening up chest are very important components of 1hbh. Very similar to throwing a frisbee. It's just the contact should be made before opening up the chest. The off hand extension is like a brake system. When you know you can safely slow down you can swing faster. That's what balance means in a dynamic biomechanical system.

Usually it should just happen based on a person's coordination level, but when there is bad habit of using or not using it in a counterproductive manner, it's worth it to take time and correct it until it happens automatically. Until then it'll feel unnatural and that's expected.
 
How many people can ruin your tennis?...... A LOT!!!

How many people can raise your tennis?..... ONLY A FEW!!

I think tennis is like bodybuilding for example, there are so many theorys and gurus, you need to learn about you feel better.
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWTPw1l3qIU&lr=1

Above is the best Youtube video on the 1HB, I've seen. I watch this one every now and then As far as the OP, all the players, Fed, Wawrinka, Blake, Hass, take the non-hitting arm back. All of them. about 7:58, the instructor shows you the take back.

My personal opinion, at my level, I think if you are set up nicely, take the arm back as if in a nice set-up passing shot. At least start out learning it that way.
 
FrisbeeFool said:
I think it prevents you from over-rotating and pulling off the ball. It helps you balance. Your front arm and the racket head are going forwards, your back arm extends back to maintain balance.

The extent you do it probably depends on the individual and what type of shot they're trying to hit. It you are hitting a cross court roller, you will rotate and come around more, and maybe not extend your back arm as much. If you're going down the line, your shot will be more linear, you will stay more side on to the net, and maybe extend your back arm more.

Here's a video of Justine Henin talking about the role of the off-arm in the one handed backhand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5HTqN12vDc
Click to expand...

Good post, I just saw Federer do that in a DTL backhand. His off-arm was as you stated, a little more back than spread eagled. But he still throw the arm back, but not as wide.
 
TennisDawg said:
I think that's the whole idea behind a 1HBH, isn't it? You don't want you're upper body to open up.
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Yeah lol at people who think you need upper body rotation similar to a fh to hit a screaming 1hbh. You don't want to open up like a fh. That's the whole point.
As the kinetic chain of the hips start the swing on the 1hbh the butt of the racket points at the ball. You stop your upper body rotation so your arm goes faster towards the contact point. Just like on a flat serve you limit the chest rotation when you are parallel to the net and you use your off arm to block the upper body to whip the racket up towards contact.
The 1hbh needs the body to stop rotating so the arm can give racket head speed by the whip effect. It is not like a modern fh. Your leading with your shoulder on the 1hbh so the contact point and swing are not the same as your fh. If your using your body turn to hit the 1hbh then you are arming it.

I wonder if some people here actually play tennis.
 
arche3 said:
Yeah lol at people who think you need upper body rotation similar to a fh to hit a screaming 1hbh. You don't want to open up like a fh. That's the whole point.
As the kinetic chain of the hips start the swing on the 1hbh the butt of the racket points at the ball. You stop your upper body rotation so your arm goes faster towards the contact point. Just like on a flat serve you limit the chest rotation when you are parallel to the net and you use your off arm to block the upper body to whip the racket up towards contact.
The 1hbh needs the body to stop rotating so the arm can give racket head speed by the whip effect. It is not like a modern fh. Your leading with your shoulder on the 1hbh so the contact point and swing are not the same as your fh. If your using your body turn to hit the 1hbh then you are arming it.

I wonder if some people here actually play tennis.
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I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But, if the poster meant you use your off harm to inhibit upper body rotation meaning that you want to prevent upper body from rotation. That still doesn't make sense as you would have to throw your off arm back way before you start the forward swing. I still don't know how that would prevent upper body rotation, besies it would really look awkward and could get you injured. So, ???????
 
FrisbeeFool said:
I dont think it should be a robotic thing where youre consciously trying to fling your back arm back. It should go back on its own for balance. He is probably having you exaggerate this one part of the stroke because he feels you are opening up your front shoulder too early. The one-hander does not have the same mechanics as the two handed backhand. On the two hander and the forehand you rotate your torso more in order to bring you hitting hand out front. On the one hander, your hitting hand and arm are connected to your front shoulder, so you extend your hitting arm towards the net and finish high, while staying more side on to the net.

It's just the mechanics of a one hander, don't confuse it with a two hander. Sounds like your coach is maybe having you exaggerate the off-hand part, because he feels you're opening up too early, or he could be a nut that wants every student to hit with the same robotic stroke, it's hard to tell from the information you've given us.
Click to expand...

This makes about as much sense as your advice to extend down the target line after contact on the forehand.
 
Limpinhitter said:
Why would anyone want to maximize velosity and mass on their 1hb? Let's put the breaks on that. :rolleyes:
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Are you really saying that in a groundstroke rally, the technique for hitting a 1HB is to open your shoulders just before you make contact?? You will see that shot plenty when you watch many club players just pushing and chopping the ball. But, if you want to learn an advanced stroke like a top spin 1HB you don't open your shoulders just before contact. After contact, because of the momentum of the shot, you will naturally open your shoulders, some, the off hand going back will provide balance after you hit the shot on the follow thru. But, you would never teach some one to open their shoulders.
 
Kunohara said:
Hey Dawg, you should gather your thoughts and post once, not 15 times in a row.
Click to expand...

You know what I'll take that pithy comment under advisement. The other method is to gather your thoughts and post 15 paragraphs like some do and have everyone's eyes roll back. But, I'll take your advice.
 
TennisDawg said:
Are you really saying that in a groundstroke rally, the technique for hitting a 1HB is to open your shoulders just before you make contact?? You will see that shot plenty when you watch many club players just pushing and chopping the ball. But, if you want to learn an advanced stroke like a top spin 1HB you don't open your shoulders just before contact. After contact, because of the momentum of the shot, you will naturally open your shoulders, some, the off hand going back will provide balance after you hit the shot on the follow thru. But, you would never teach some one to open their shoulders.
Click to expand...

Don't put words in my mouth. I said that throwing the left hand back inhibits upper body rotation. However, the shoulders should be slightly open before contact, but, not as much as on forehand because you are hitting from the front shoulder rather than the back shoulder.

TennisDawg said:
You also don't make contact in front of your body when you hit a forehand.
Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PaTQc0xkSI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp_XHBXGbUs
 
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Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, man! But, I was trying to understand what you meant when you say that spreading the off arm back inhibits upper body rotation. Upper body rotation at least to me means you open your upper body from the hips up to your shoulders which is not the same as what you now say above "shoulders should be slightly open before contact". So, if you mean that you would not teach someone to hit 1HBH while rotating their upper body, then we can agree, at least somewhat. The shoulders also would not be as open for DTL vs CC.
 
tank_job said:
Apparently when you hit a 1hbh, coach says the non-hitting arm must be flung backwards at the same time the hitting arm is flung forwards - so you look like some humanoid eagle spreading its wings at the point of contact.

However, when I tried to do this, my backhand fell apart and I could hardly get a ball over the net.

This is frustrating because my 1hbh is my better shot and I felt like nothing was wrong with it, yet the coach said I needed to make the change anyway.

It felt like all the power was gone, because usually my chest opens up towards the net on the follow through to add a bit of power, but with the non-hitting arm being flung backwards that was impossible, and I feel like it was preventing me from using my core in the shot.

To me it doesn't make sense - I don't know how moving part of your body in the opposite direction to the momentum of the shot could impart more power to the stroke?

Should I stick with this arm flinging backwards business even though it feels unnatural to me and at the moment it is preventing me from hitting decent backhands - because it will be worth it in the end?
Click to expand...


You dont need to but it does help alot. It helps you from opening up too early and it helps especially on topspin. Basically, it doesnt hurt and it always helps.
 
arche3 said:
The 1hbh needs the body to stop rotating so the arm can give racket head speed by the whip effect. It is not like a modern fh. Your leading with your shoulder on the 1hbh so the contact point and swing are not the same as your fh. If your using your body turn to hit the 1hbh then you are arming it.

I wonder if some people here actually play tennis.
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yep well said. It's just the mechanics of the one hander. People shouldn't confuse the one hander with the two hander or the forehand. I really question if Limpinhitter has any idea how to hit a one handed backhand.

On my one hander I just naturally extend that back arm for balance, and it prevents me from opening up two early. I was taught from day one not to over rotate on that shot. If you rotate the torso too much you will have a glancing blow instead of a solid stroke.

Maybe the OP's coach is placing too much emphasis on this one part of the stroke, but my guess would be he's trying to teach the op not to overrotate. I'm betting he just wants the OP to get this part of the stroke down and it will become natural for him eventually as well where he doesn't even think about it. Learning new things can feel awkward at first even if it's the proper technique in the long run.
 
TennisDawg said:
Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, man! But, I was trying to understand what you meant when you say that spreading the off arm back inhibits upper body rotation. Upper body rotation at least to me means you open your upper body from the hips up to your shoulders which is not the same as what you now say above "shoulders should be slightly open before contact". So, if you mean that you would not teach someone to hit 1HBH while rotating their upper body, then we can agree, at least somewhat. The shoulders also would not be as open for DTL vs CC.
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No, I mean just the opposite. IMO, ideally, your shoulders should rotate between approximately 120-160 degrees (estimated), for a topspin or slice 1hb. BTW, the shoulders cannot rotate that far without rotating the hips, unless your name is Gumby. Further, IMO, throwing your left arm back adds nothing of value to the stroke, and inhibits upper body rotation at, and after, contact. To be clear, you don't need as much UBR on a 1hb as you do on a 2hb or a forehand, because you are swinging from the front shoulder which is uninhibited by another hand, or your chest. But, ideally, you should still have plenty of UBR.
 
Limpinhitter said:
No, I mean just the opposite. IMO, ideally, your shoulders should rotate between approximately 120-160 degrees (estimated), for a topspin or slice 1hb. BTW, the shoulders cannot rotate that far without rotating the hips, unless your name is Gumby. Further, IMO, throwing your left arm back adds nothing of value to the stroke, and inhibits upper body rotation at, and after, contact. To be clear, you don't need as much UBR on a 1hb as you do on a 2hb or a forehand, because you are swinging from the front shoulder which is uninhibited by another hand, or your chest. But, ideally, you should still have plenty of UBR.
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Um no all wrong, using the back arm for balance does inhibit upper body rotation that's the point. It should be that way. It's just the way you hit a one-hander.

Now I now how you are Limpinhitter, so I will qualify my statement. It does depend a little on the shot you're hitting. If you're hitting a cross court roller you will rotate a little more. If you're going dtl, you will stay more side on to the net. Some the pros like wawrinka and sabatini back in the day have a lot of racket head speed. On their follow through the rack head sometimes pulls their shoulder around and opens them up a little more. That's only after they have hit through the shot. Rotating your body 120-160 degrees on the one hander just isn't how it's done. No experienced player hits that way. The one hander is it's own distinct shot. Got to learn the right mechanics if you want to hit it successfully
 
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