2-3SW difference noticable?

2-3SW noticable?

  • Yes

  • No


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Username_

Hall of Fame
Two of the same racquets, same weight, almost identical balance, but 2-3 SW points different between each other.

Is this noticable?
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Someone did a blind test around these sorts of issue and to say that people aren't very sensitive to such small differences is a vast under-statement.
 

zalive

Hall of Fame
If you have two racquets with identical both weight and balance (let's hypotetically suppose both are identical) but 2-3 SW pts difference, they'll probably swing differently. One of them will likely swing easier. It isn't impossible there will be no difference felt in how they swing, but it's more probably there will be.

When balance is not completely the same (while weight is identical let's suppose), it all depends on direction of balance difference. In some situations racquet will swing similarly because of similarity in specs relation, in some other situation the difference in how they swing will be yet bigger. And if both specs are approximately similar, the result is similar. In any case it's no wonder if racquets will swing differently.

Much, really much about success of playing with any racquet is in how (lightly/easily or heavier/laggier) it swings, in my view it's more important than any spec per se.

No, you can't.
Very easy to see this yourself. Put one gram of putty at 12 o'clock. It will increase SW by 3.3 pts roughly. Then try just shadow swinging it, with putty, then again without it. You should feel the difference.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
If you add the weight to a specific point on the racquet you will feel the difference, but if you take two separate racquets different by only three swing weight points then that's the real test.
 

zalive

Hall of Fame
If you add the weight to a specific point on the racquet you will feel the difference, but if you take two separate racquets different by only three swing weight points then that's the real test.
If you have two specs approximately the same, but one is different, it's again a tell tale sign that something is significantly different inside, regarding internal weight distribution. The difference may be even bigger than adding 1 gram at the tip because 1 gram at the tip also moves the balance by 1 mm approximately. So while you can think adding 1 gram at 12 o'clock is drastic example, it can be yet more drastic in realistic situation, just because of a different weight distribution.

Manufacturers I'd say use the handle side to get weight to tighter toleration, so if the hoop is 10 grams lighter they add some more grams on the handle side to make the weight difference smaller. Which can make a difference in how racquets swing yet bigger.
 
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Surion

Hall of Fame
If you have two racquets with identical both weight and balance (let's hypotetically suppose both are identical) but 2-3 SW pts difference, they'll probably swing differently. One of them will likely swing easier. It isn't impossible there will be no difference felt in how they swing, but it's more probably there will be.

When balance is not completely the same (while weight is identical let's suppose), it all depends on direction of balance difference. In some situations racquet will swing similarly because of similarity in specs relation, in some other situation the difference in how they swing will be yet bigger. And if both specs are approximately similar, the result is similar. In any case it's no wonder if racquets will swing differently.

Much, really much about success of playing with any racquet is in how (lightly/easily or heavier/laggier) it swings, in my view it's more important than any spec per se.



Very easy to see this yourself. Put one gram of putty at 12 o'clock. It will increase SW by 3.3 pts roughly. Then try just shadow swinging it, with putty, then again without it. You should feel the difference.
If you give me both racquets and ask me to feel a difference, then maybe, yea.

But if someone just secretly took my racquet and increased the SW by 3 points without me knowing, there is no way I'd feel that.
I guess nobody could, except for some pros maybe.

But that's just my opinion.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Two of the same racquets, same weight, almost identical balance, but 2-3 SW points different between each other.

Is this noticable?
No, not for most players. 2/3 pts is like putting less than 1 g of mass at 12 o'clock.

In a study of college varsity players, it was found that they could distinguish two racquets apart if the twistweights differed by more than 5 percent. In a related study, the same players required a difference in swingweight of at least 2.5 percent to distinguish two otherwise identical racquets (same balance, total weight and twistweight) from each another. Adding 5 grams to the racquet head at the 3 and the 9 o’clock locations increases the twistweight by about 10 percent, so a good player should be able to distinguish it from an unaltered frame.

Ref - http://www.tennisindustrymag.com/articles/2005/02/a_new_twist_on_the_twistweight.html
 

zalive

Hall of Fame
If you give me both racquets and ask me to feel a difference, then maybe, yea.

But if someone just secretly took my racquet and increased the SW by 3 points without me knowing, there is no way I'd feel that.
I guess nobody could, except for some pros maybe.

But that's just my opinion.
Sure, and true. Only shorter memory impressions have some reliability. If you swing a racquet and/or hit with it, then add chunk of putty, then again swing/hit, you'll probably feel the difference. If there's afternoon or the next day in between you probably won't feel a thing or won't be sure whether you feel anything or you're just having a bad day. For example if racquet is fine tuned to perfection, then someone messes this up just a bit without you knowing it, even if you go hit and realize you're less successful, you can't be quite sure if it's the racquet or you're just having a worse of your days. Because this happens as well. However yeah, the easiest is to have two racquets completely tuned to same specs, then change one of them, then compare one to another. But again if you deal with putty you can put it on and take it off so fast that there is no difference in whether you're having one racquet or two. And I can tell you, it takes no pro to observe this. Possibly just a person who is observer. Not even to feel a difference, I guess pretty much everybody can feel a a difference. Good observer is just better in locating precisely where the difference is, and then in describing it. Similar is with, say, listening to hi-fi systems. Heck my wife who never messed with hi-fis can tell a difference between two different components in otherwise the same system, and say which one she likes better. She's observer enough to hear there is a difference. What she can't is to see and pin point where the major difference is, and to describe it. That requires an experienced hifist (observer plus analytical).
 

Surion

Hall of Fame
Sure, and true. Only shorter memory impressions have some reliability. If you swing a racquet and/or hit with it, then add chunk of putty, then again swing/hit, you'll probably feel the difference. If there's afternoon or the next day in between you probably won't feel a thing or won't be sure whether you feel anything or you're just having a bad day. For example if racquet is fine tuned to perfection, then someone messes this up just a bit without you knowing it, even if you go hit and realize you're less successful, you can't be quite sure if it's the racquet or you're just having a worse of your days. Because this happens as well. However yeah, the easiest is to have two racquets completely tuned to same specs, then change one of them, then compare one to another. But again if you deal with putty you can put it on and take it off so fast that there is no difference in whether you're having one racquet or two. And I can tell you, it takes no pro to observe this. Possibly just a person who is observer. Not even to feel a difference, I guess pretty much everybody can feel a a difference. Good observer is just better in locating precisely where the difference is, and then in describing it. Similar is with, say, listening to hi-fi systems. Heck my wife who never messed with hi-fis can tell a difference between two different components in otherwise the same system, and say which one she likes better. She's observer enough to hear there is a difference. What she can't is to see and pin point where the major difference is, and to describe it. That requires an experienced hifist (observer plus analytical).
I think that's true, definitely.

I once bought the 97S and played with it, then inserted 15 g into the handle and used it again a few days later and felt a huge difference. But I knew I had to feel one and 15 g is some difference, not like 1g at 12 o'clock.
 

zalive

Hall of Fame
I think that's true, definitely.

I once bought the 97S and played with it, then inserted 15 g into the handle and used it again a few days later and felt a huge difference. But I knew I had to feel one and 15 g is some difference, not like 1g at 12 o'clock.
Again all true :)
Yeah when you know you did something, and expect something, it may help give you false impressions, it will be influential on the result of observation as it may be biased with expectations, beliefs and 'knowledge' (if it is real knowledge then there should be no confrontation between what you know and what you observe).

I know I have some interesting observation when it tells me something which is different to common belief and understanding.
For the example: a common understanding is that if you add mass to the racquet without increasing SW significantly, which happens if you add it to the handle, then power should stay the same, right?
However observation tells me power changes with adding mass to the handle. I felt this, yet it was contrary to what I read here.
If I tailweight it (add mass to the butt), I feel I get more power. And if I add mass to the top of the handle, I feel swing can change either for the better or for the worse. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. In a way racquet swings easier, with less effort. If I swing it with less effort, I'll probably achieve more RHS, meaning I will effectively have more power, even if power of racquet itself didn't change at all.

The other thing: at one point of learning about customization, I believed that applying lead to the top of the handle always speeded up the swing, while applying it to the tip always slowed it down. But with some racquets it was...different. Not different. It was in fact completely the opposite. So obviously what I believed was not completely true, it was relative to present mass distribution in the racquet. Now if I trust my observations before what I think I know, I will search for better explanations and eventually gravitate to more truth. (absolute and pure truth is kind of tough to get :D)
 

Anton

Legend
Two of the same racquets, same weight, almost identical balance, but 2-3 SW points different between each other.

Is this noticable?
Yes. But only if you swing them back-to-back.

You won't notice much if you play them at different times as your strokes will adjust to compensate.
 

zalive

Hall of Fame
Yes. But only if you swing them back-to-back.

You won't notice much if you play them at different times as your strokes will adjust to compensate.
After playing multiple times with slightly different setups (of the same designs), you'll probably get aware which one of them you prefer to hit with. You won't necessarily be aware why is that.
 
No, but idiots of TT can write an essay on how it affects your game, randomly sprinkle phrases like launch angle to make it sound like less bs.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
roughly 3SW units is noticeable. I had 2 rackets that were about 3SW apart. I could close my eyes and pic the heavier one after taking a few shadow swings.

Assume your racket weighs 300 to 340 grams, 3SW is almost 1% difference, and you can notice it.
 

jonestim

Hall of Fame
Probably not, and if I did I would get used to it within a minute or two. I have three of the same racquet that are within 1 gram and within half a balance point. I don't have a way of accurately measuring the swingweight and am pretty sure they would not be identical. I can pick up any of the racquets and within a few swings be fine.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
roughly 3SW units is noticeable. I had 2 rackets that were about 3SW apart. I could close my eyes and pic the heavier one after taking a few shadow swings.

Assume your racket weighs 300 to 340 grams, 3SW is almost 1% difference, and you can notice it.
Apparently you can but college players of much higher skill can't. Wonder why that is?

Bias is a huge problem here on TT forums. Few people seem to understand the necessity of blinding in all comparisons to give a truly unbiased result.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Maybe it would be noticed at the margins - that is if your racquet was already high swingweight and a few more points goes near or beyond your limit to play with it. 2-3 points? Not sure. I went from 16l to 15 gauge strings and I really noticed the difference but the weight differential was 5 grams and so maybe 10 sw points. The thing is that other things aren't equal for rec players. The difference in string tension between two rec player frames may make more of a difference than swingweight differences. I imagine that some people could tell 3 points and most probably couldn't.

Other factors: variances in tennis balls, humidity, temperature, etc. - stuff that's a factor when you're playing that changes where the ball goes and how hitting feels.
 

AMGF

Hall of Fame
I can't. It would take probably 10sw point before I start noticing anything, and even then, not even sure I would. I can literally take just about any racquet and play just fine. I do have favorite specs, but I adjust so quickly to a new frame I know it takes a big difference for me to notice.

But I swear my gf (3.5level) senses minute changes. One day I matched her 3 frames within a few points of each other. 3 SW was probably the gap between the lowest and highest, she shadow swung the frames and told me that one's higher. I couldn't believe it. I think some people have better sensory skills and it has little to do with tennis talent.

It makes me believe that maybe people will lower muscular mass/overall strenght will probably be more sensitive to small changes in SW/static weight. Not necessarily the ones with the higher technical skills. It would be interesting to see test results on that.
 

shaneno

Professional
Two of the same racquets, same weight, almost identical balance, but 2-3 SW points different between each other.

Is this noticable?
If you know there is a 2-3 SW difference. Your mind will focus on that. and u will feel a "difference" lol
if not, u probably won't.

for me as a customizer. 2 u will feel a Slight difference. 3 of course. but if you know there is a difference. Then ur mind will fixate on it
 

zalive

Hall of Fame
If you know there is a 2-3 SW difference. Your mind will focus on that. and u will feel a "difference" lol
if not, u probably won't.

for me as a customizer. 2 u will feel a Slight difference. 3 of course. but if you know there is a difference. Then ur mind will fixate on it
If you put 2 grams at 3+9 o'clock, that's 3-3.5 pts in SW, you won't feel much more power or inertia, it will be a subtle diference, but you will likely notice the difference in increased TW, by more stability, sometimes in increased sweet spot, sometimes in less spin because of less head twisting.

If you put 1 gram at 12 o'clock, you get the similar 3-3.5 pts SW increase, no TW increase that could be noticed, but racquet will swing differently, both to prior change, or when you put lead at 3+9 o'clock.

I allow some won't notice a thing, but then again, if a player is an instrument, not each instrument is equally sensitive :) observing has to be practiced to be sharp, just like tennis!
 

Readers

Professional
If you have two racquets with identical both weight and balance (let's hypotetically suppose both are identical) but 2-3 SW pts difference, they'll probably swing differently. One of them will likely swing easier. It isn't impossible there will be no difference felt in how they swing, but it's more probably there will be.

When balance is not completely the same (while weight is identical let's suppose), it all depends on direction of balance difference. In some situations racquet will swing similarly because of similarity in specs relation, in some other situation the difference in how they swing will be yet bigger. And if both specs are approximately similar, the result is similar. In any case it's no wonder if racquets will swing differently.

Much, really much about success of playing with any racquet is in how (lightly/easily or heavier/laggier) it swings, in my view it's more important than any spec per se.



Very easy to see this yourself. Put one gram of putty at 12 o'clock. It will increase SW by 3.3 pts roughly. Then try just shadow swinging it, with putty, then again without it. You should feel the difference.
That's REALLY stupid, that way you changed both weight and balance as well, not what OP asked at all.
 

zalive

Hall of Fame
That's REALLY stupid, that way you changed both weight and balance as well, not what OP asked at all.
It's just the example related to few posts, but you're right, it went away from OP. To tell truth, I forgot in the meantime what OP was exactly about.

Now if both balance and weight are the same but SW is 2-3 pts different, because of pendulum physics, those two will swing differently because of different mass distribution. SW alone would not make a big difderence, but different swing implies one of them would swing laggier.
 
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Racketdesign

Semi-Pro
If you put 2 grams at 3+9 o'clock, that's 3-3.5 pts in SW, you won't feel much more power or inertia, it will be a subtle diference, but you will likely notice the difference in increased TW, by more stability, sometimes in increased sweet spot, sometimes in less spin because of less head twisting.

If you put 1 gram at 12 o'clock, you get the similar 3-3.5 pts SW increase, no TW increase that could be noticed, but racquet will swing differently, both to prior change, or when you put lead at 3+9 o'clock.

I allow some won't notice a thing, but then again, if a player is an instrument, not each instrument is equally sensitive :) observing has to be practiced to be sharp, just like tennis!
1g at 12 o'clock can add 6 SW points.
 

haqq777

Legend
If you put 2 grams at 3+9 o'clock, that's 3-3.5 pts in SW, you won't feel much more power or inertia, it will be a subtle diference, but you will likely notice the difference in increased TW, by more stability, sometimes in increased sweet spot, sometimes in less spin because of less head twisting.

If you put 1 gram at 12 o'clock, you get the similar 3-3.5 pts SW increase, no TW increase that could be noticed, but racquet will swing differently, both to prior change, or when you put lead at 3+9 o'clock.

I allow some won't notice a thing, but then again, if a player is an instrument, not each instrument is equally sensitive :) observing has to be practiced to be sharp, just like tennis!
1g at 12 o'clock can add 6 SW points.
Great video on Angell's Facebook page that shows it too.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1279682002128206&id=288667107896372
 
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esgee48

G.O.A.T.
Don't think so. 1 gram of lead tape at the tip of the hoop has been measured on an RDC to increase swing weight by a little over 3 kg-cm^2/added gram at 12. The TWU customization calculators for SW also show this factoid. Plug the 1 gram increase in and use any numbers you want. SW increases ~ 3 units for all masses added at the tip of the hoop.
 

un6a

Semi-Pro
Two of the same racquets, same weight, almost identical balance, but 2-3 SW points different between each other.

Is this noticable?
It is very personal. I think for people who genarally use racquets with high SW, 2-3 pts of SW difference is unnoticable.
On the other hand some may be very senstitive for very small SW change. For me for example, 0.5g at 12 (about 1.5 SW pts differerence) is clearly noticable.
 

Racketdesign

Semi-Pro
Don't think so. 1 gram of lead tape at the tip of the hoop has been measured on an RDC to increase swing weight by a little over 3 kg-cm^2/added gram at 12. The TWU customization calculators for SW also show this factoid. Plug the 1 gram increase in and use any numbers you want. SW increases ~ 3 units for all masses added at the tip of the hoop.
Is there a video of the experiment using an RDC? It will be interesting to see what happens now that RDC machines are discontinued and (I believe) unsupported for calibration and maintenance.
 

zalive

Hall of Fame
Yeah, I was kinda taken aback as well. Zalive has been pretty polite and has very informed posts. If anything, I would be respectful atleast.
Don't worry, I didn't take anything personally, I was bit provocative myself so provocative post provoked the response :) however I'm calm as I know what I know, no opinion can change this.
 
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Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Don't think so. 1 gram of lead tape at the tip of the hoop has been measured on an RDC to increase swing weight by a little over 3 kg-cm^2/added gram at 12. The TWU customization calculators for SW also show this factoid. Plug the 1 gram increase in and use any numbers you want. SW increases ~ 3 units for all masses added at the tip of the hoop.
Yeah i always thought 1g at 12pm added 3pts too. Iirc racquet tune agreed
 

esgee48

G.O.A.T.
No video, but Mikeler or Power Player at one time used RDCs to measure SW when thry were customizing their frames. 1 gram at 12 ~ 3 SW units. The TWU calculators also show this.
 

EasternRocks

Hall of Fame
Easy yes. 2-3 especially if weight is added 3/9 or 12, the heavier SW can make it such a different feeling frame to swing. Regardless, I find that I cannot manipulate the racquet face in even 1-2% increases in SW.

People who don't think they can notice IMO care less about the "smaller" things and are easy to adjust.
 

Big Bagel

Professional
No, the average person will not be able to tell the difference. I would bet the average player wouldn't even be able to tell the difference side-by-side if you didn't tell them they were different. Remember, we are not talking about adding weight at 12 or 3/9; that also changes the balance. We are talking about same balance and static weight, just slightly different swing weights.

I guarantee there are some pros that wouldn't even notice that much of a difference if you gave them one on a certain day, then switched it with the other another day without them knowing. But there are also other pros that will notice the slightest difference; Chang was a guy that could feel the difference if it was only 1 or 2 swing weight units off, and he didn't even need to hit with the racquet to feel the difference.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Easy yes. 2-3 especially if weight is added 3/9 or 12, the heavier SW can make it such a different feeling frame to swing. Regardless, I find that I cannot manipulate the racquet face in even 1-2% increases in SW.

People who don't think they can notice IMO care less about the "smaller" things and are easy to adjust.
Interesting. What kind of manipulations are you doing? And when??
 

EasternRocks

Hall of Fame
No, the average person will not be able to tell the difference. I would bet the average player wouldn't even be able to tell the difference side-by-side if you didn't tell them they were different. Remember, we are not talking about adding weight at 12 or 3/9; that also changes the balance. We are talking about same balance and static weight, just slightly different swing weights.

I guarantee there are some pros that wouldn't even notice that much of a difference if you gave them one on a certain day, then switched it with the other another day without them knowing. But there are also other pros that will notice the slightest difference; Chang was a guy that could feel the difference if it was only 1 or 2 swing weight units off, and he didn't even need to hit with the racquet to feel the difference.
I have to mention that my experience is not having the static weight stay constant with both frames. Racquet B is 2 grams heavier in static, and 1-2 points in SW higher as well.
 

EasternRocks

Hall of Fame
Interesting. What kind of manipulations are you doing? And when??
Racquet A has about 3 grams at 11/1 and 1.25 at 3/9. Racquet B has about 3 grams at 3/9 and about 2-2.5 at 11/1. B has a bit more weight in the grip to counterbalance to keep the same weight.
 

EasternRocks

Hall of Fame
I will say that if they were identical and it was 2 SW points, I doubt I genuinely could say I can notice. 2 variables like static and swingweight, increasing just 1-2 points and a few grams, is noticeable to me.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Racquet A has about 3 grams at 11/1 and 1.25 at 3/9. Racquet B has about 3 grams at 3/9 and about 2-2.5 at 11/1. B has a bit more weight in the grip to counterbalance to keep the same weight.
Sorry dude you mentioned racquet FACE manipulations. What are you doing with the racquet face and when?

Also fwiw I have added about 100g to some racquets and never ever do 3&9. Its probably me but it seems like the least bang for the weight. These days I do strips from 10-11 and 1-2pm roughly
 

EasternRocks

Hall of Fame
Sorry dude you mentioned racquet FACE manipulations. What are you doing with the racquet face and when?

Also fwiw I have added about 100g to some racquets and never ever do 3&9. Its probably me but it seems like the least bang for the weight. These days I do strips from 10-11 and 1-2pm roughly
Mostly just getting the racquet in position on my FH wing to really add action to the ball. I don't hit a really spinny ball by any means, but I do whip my lefty forehand. With the heavier and higher SW frame, I can't move the head of the racquet to the same spot with the same efficiency. On my backhand, this means catching it late more.

100g???? I'm a former college tennis player and looking at the racquet in your bio makes me go straight for the Advil.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Mostly just getting the racquet in position on my FH wing to really add action to the ball. I don't hit a really spinny ball by any means, but I do whip my lefty forehand. With the heavier and higher SW frame, I can't move the head of the racquet to the same spot with the same efficiency. On my backhand, this means catching it late more.

100g???? I'm a former college tennis player and looking at the racquet in your bio makes me go straight for the Advil.
Ah ok. Try adding 10+ grams at 7” up the handle next time that happens. If you add enough there you should get the swing speed back. I usually have to add 30g there

Congrats on playing at a high level. I am just a lowly 4.0 who is old and out of shape. Though my old practice partner who regularly beat me usually 6,3 or 6,4 or worse made it to nationals this year. I will spare the board the vid

Fwiw 2 things you may be missing is that a high sw really protects the arm. And usually you hot shot college types who tried kevlar “back in the day” always crossed it with syngut which locks the stringbed and is harsher than a poly that allows the mains to slide on impact.
 
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