2 4.5 singles player VS 2 4.0 doubles specialist in doubles

[austen5566]

Two 4.5 singles players that dont play much doubles going against two 4.0 doubles specialists that play mostly doubles.
The two 4.5 players are superior in every aspects except experiences, and equivalent volley skills.
Who you think will win in best of three? And what will the scores be?

 

[tenniscasey]

Two 4.5 singles players that dont play much doubles going against two 4.0 doubles specialists that play mostly double.
The two 4.5 players are superior in every aspects except experiences.
Who you think will win in best of two? And what will the scores be?

The 4.5s won't know how to instinctively position and communicate. Assuming all the players are same gender, I like the 4.0s to win 2 and 2.

 

[austen5566]

The 4.5s won't know how to instinctively position and communicate. Assuming all the players are same gender, I like the 4.0s to win 2 and 2.

I agree that there will be communication issues, but with much superior skills, you dont need much strategy.
I think the two 4.0s will have a difficult time returning the 4.5s serve, so the other 4.5 can easily puts away their returns.

 

[tenniscasey]

I agree that there will be communication issues, but with much superior skills, you dont need much strategy.
I think the two 4.0s will have a difficult time returning the 4.5s serve, so the other 4.5 can easily puts away their returns.

You make a good point, but I don't think the skill gap between 4.0 and 4.5 is enough to compensate for how different the singles and doubles games are. If it were 3.0 vs. 3.5 I'd like the 3.5s.

 

[Captain Ron]

6-3, 6-4 4.5 singles players.

 

[cknobman]

4.5's win easy. Seen this first hand.

Regardless of doubles specific skills good 4.5 players tennis skills in general are too far advanced from a 4.0.

 

[J_R_B]

Two 4.5 singles players that dont play much doubles going against two 4.0 doubles specialists that play mostly doubles.
The two 4.5 players are superior in every aspects except experiences, and equivalent volley skills.
Who you think will win in best of three? And what will the scores be?

I played 3 4.5 doubles matches this season with a 4.0 partner with whom I'm experienced/comfortable playing doubles (not always the same person, but always someone I've played with before) against two 4.5 rated singles players. We won all three matches:

Match 1: 4.0 doubles win 6-2 6-1. We played great, one of the guys was kind of lost in doubles.
Match 2: 4.0 doubles win 6-3 6-3. Team replaced lost guy with a better singles player, but we won anyway.
Match 3: 4.0 doubles win 6-0 7-6. I had a slightly weaker partner, but one of their guys was 4.0 rated as well. We could have won this 6-0 6-0 but had a mental letdown at 6-0 4-0.

Of course, I expect to be rated up to 4.5 because of these matches, too. LOL. I also played 2 4.5 doubles matches (again with 4.0 partners) against experienced 4.5 doubles teams (once against a 5.0 team in a 4.5+ league) and lost both 6-2 6-2 and 6-2 6-1.

 

[gambitt]

Do the 4.5's have proper serves? Volley and communication skills don't count for anything if you can't put returns in play consistently.

 

[austen5566]

Just to make it more clear, the two 4.5 are .5 better than the 4.0, so we are not talking about weak 4.5 vs strong 4.0. And the two 4.5s are .5 more superior than the two 4.0s in serve, return,ground stroke,speed,reaction..ect, except same net skill, the two 4.0 has a lot more experiences.

I agree that in "real life" its very possible that the two 4.0s could win against the two 4.5s, but it could that the styles of the 4.5 games does not fit well into doubles.

 

[austen5566]

Do the 4.5's have proper serves? Volley and communication skills don't count for anything if you can't put returns in play consistently.

Yes, their serve is .5 above the 4.0s returning skills, and also their return is .5 above the 4.0s serving skills.

I know this isnt that realistic, but the thread is focusing on superior skill with inferior experience VS the opposite.

 

[burosky]

Yes, their serve is .5 above, the 4.0s returning skills, and also their return is .5 above the 4.0s serving skills.

I am this isnt that realistic, but the tread is focusing on superior skill with inferior experience VS the opposite.

I agree. In addition, the result of one match against the same opponents doesn't really give any conclusive data. I would have to think that over a number of matches against the same opponents who has superior skills with inferior experience will win more than half the time. Eventually, they will pick up on the weaknesses enough to win them points.

 

[floridatennisdude]

I'd take the 4.5 team to win it 75% of the time

 

[J_R_B]

Just to make it more clear, the two 4.5 are .5 better than the 4.0, so we are not talking about weak 4.5 vs strong 4.0. And the two 4.5s are .5 more superior than the two 4.0s in serve, return,ground stroke,speed,reaction..ect, except same net skill, the two 4.0 has a lot more experiences.

I agree that in "real life" its very possible that the two 4.0s could win against the two 4.5s, but it could that the styles of the 4.5 games does not fit well into doubles.

My example is probably relatively close to 0.5 apart (at least in the first two matches), not counting the results of these matches which would naturally level the DNTRP significantly. One of the guys we beat in the first two matches won all of the rest of his matches in 18s and 55s but lost the two to me and my partner. I was probably fairly highly rated 4.0 at YE 2013, but my partner in those matches was only a decent 4.0 in 2013.

 

[TennisProdigy]

If the 4.5 players r aggressive singles players who hit hard serves and ground strokes they will win 6 2 6 2. The 4.0s won't know how to handle the increased pace. If u have two 4.5s like me with a weak serve, lack of pace and lack of volley experience the 4 0s could win 7 5 7 5

 

[ednegroni]

One of my bestfriends is strictly singles 4.5 and gets destroyed in doubles at our level, and 4.0s wouldn't have a shot against 2 of him, specialists or not. At least in PR, 4.0 is far off from 4.5.

 

[OrangePower]

Easy win for the 4.5s. Straight sets.

I speak from personal experience. I am a 4.5 singles player. I play a bit of dubs here and there, but am a much better singles player.

My buddy is the same. He is also one of the singles players on our 4.5 team.

We occasionally team together to play in local dubs leagues and tournaments. Often we will come across an established pair of 4.0s playing up.

We never have a problem beating them.

Pretty much it comes down to us being able to return their serves much better than they can return ours.

 

[LeeD]

Totally depends on matchups, strengths and weaknesses, and focus.
Most 4.5 SINGLES players are not net oriented, and shy away from net play. If they like net play, 4.5's dominate.
While some 4.0's have never seen a real serve, lots of 4.0's have dabbled into 5.0 or Open level tourneys, and can return serve, or at least lob over the netperson with ease. That would present the 4.5's who favor baseline play with several problems.
I know for sure a few 4.0 doubles player's, who if teamed together, would have no problem winning most 4.5 doubles matches. In singles, they might even be WEAK 4.0 singles.
But if you're talking typical weak serving 4.0's against big hitting 4.5's, 4.5's win most times.

 

[schmke]

I played 3 4.5 doubles matches this season with a 4.0 partner with whom I'm experienced/comfortable playing doubles (not always the same person, but always someone I've played with before) against two 4.5 rated singles players. We won all three matches:

Match 1: 4.0 doubles win 6-2 6-1. We played great, one of the guys was kind of lost in doubles.
Match 2: 4.0 doubles win 6-3 6-3. Team replaced lost guy with a better singles player, but we won anyway.
Match 3: 4.0 doubles win 6-0 7-6. I had a slightly weaker partner, but one of their guys was 4.0 rated as well. We could have won this 6-0 6-0 but had a mental letdown at 6-0 4-0.

Of course, I expect to be rated up to 4.5 because of these matches, too. LOL. I also played 2 4.5 doubles matches (again with 4.0 partners) against experienced 4.5 doubles teams (once against a 5.0 team in a 4.5+ league) and lost both 6-2 6-2 and 6-2 6-1.

FWIW, since J_R_B is not an average 4.0 (nearly bumped to 4.5 last year) and the 4.5s aren't necessarily top 4.5s and thus the ratings delta isn't a full 0.5, I thought it would be interesting to look at these three specific matches to see how far off the results were from expected.

Match 1 - J_R_B was effectively a decent 4.5 at this point and his partner was a good 4.0, and they played two average 4.5s. So they were supposed to lose a competitive match, but won convincingly.

Match 2 - J_R_B was higher now and his partner (same as before) went up too, so since their opponents (one the same as before) were weak 4.5s at this point, J_R_B and partner were supposed to win a fairly close 7-6,6-4 type of match but won more easily.

Match 3 - J_R_B was even higher now, and his partner was also above 4.0, so playing a good 4.0 and decent 4.5, J_R_B was supposed to win about 3 & 4 and won a little be more easily.

So J_R_B and partner certainly did better than expected in each match and some of that is likely due to doubles vs singles specialists and/or familiarity J_R_B had with his partner, but these 4.5 matches were expected to be a lot closer than the "average 4.0 vs average 4.5" type of scenario.

--
NTRP Ratings FAQ

 

[goran_ace]

The 4.5's win 2 and 2.

 

[goran_ace]

Pretty much it comes down to us being able to return their serves much better than they can return ours.

^^^ Yes, this. This is exactly my experience as well playing a lot of pick up doubles around the club.

 

[LeeD]

2 4.5's should should win breadsticks and 2's, for sure.
In practice, it's not the same thing. Too many "4.5's" volley like girls, have little overheads, little serves, and rely on baseline topspin deep shots to stay at 4.5 levels. That's the way baseline 4.5's play.
Some 4.0's can easily volley a full level better, but MOBILITY or lack of, is keeping them at 4.0 levels of play (singles). In doubles, except for covering lobs, mobility is less an issue. TWO baseline bashing 4.5's are not going to lob 2 4.0's at net position. They'll go for passing shots, which a good volleying 4.0 can handle easily.
Ever see Marina High's doubles vids?

 

[J_R_B]

FWIW, since J_R_B is not an average 4.0 (nearly bumped to 4.5 last year) and the 4.5s aren't necessarily top 4.5s and thus the ratings delta isn't a full 0.5, I thought it would be interesting to look at these three specific matches to see how far off the results were from expected.

Match 1 - J_R_B was effectively a decent 4.5 at this point and his partner was a good 4.0, and they played two average 4.5s. So they were supposed to lose a competitive match, but won convincingly.

Match 2 - J_R_B was higher now and his partner (same as before) went up too, so since their opponents (one the same as before) were weak 4.5s at this point, J_R_B and partner were supposed to win a fairly close 7-6,6-4 type of match but won more easily.

Match 3 - J_R_B was even higher now, and his partner was also above 4.0, so playing a good 4.0 and decent 4.5, J_R_B was supposed to win about 3 & 4 and won a little be more easily.

So J_R_B and partner certainly did better than expected in each match and some of that is likely due to doubles vs singles specialists and/or familiarity J_R_B had with his partner, but these 4.5 matches were expected to be a lot closer than the "average 4.0 vs average 4.5" type of scenario.

--
NTRP Ratings FAQ

The DNTRP analysis here is a little deceiving, especially in the second two matches, because the ratings aren't independent (no ratings will ever be completely independent, but in this case, they are highly correlated). What I mean is, in the second match, they replaced their weaker player with a stronger player and the other three people involved were the same, yet we were supposedly favored in the second match when we weren't in the first. The only reason for the change in expectations is the result of the first match that has a disproportionate effect on 3 of the 4 DNTRP calculations. The three of us didn't actually change how well (or not) we play in the course of 3 weeks such that there should be ANY change in the expected actual result on the court. If anything, since the other team replaced their weaker player with a stronger one, we should have been an a priori bigger underdog in the second match. It would probably be more informative to freeze everyone's DNTRP at the start of the three matches and analyze the expectations without the bias introduced from recent results against each other.

In other news, 4.5 here I come!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xB4RLZguN4

 

[directionals]

Two 4.5 singles players that dont play much doubles going against two 4.0 doubles specialists that play mostly doubles.
The two 4.5 players are superior in every aspects except experiences, and equivalent volley skills.
Who you think will win in best of three? And what will the scores be?

4.5 players most likely have better volley skills than the 4.0 players. 4.5 players win.

 

[saigonbond 2.0]

Superior serves and superior returns... easy W for the 4.5's probably 2&1.

 

[sam_p]

One of the big jumps I see from 4.0 to 4.5 is the ability to consistently serve to your opponent's weakness. Most 4.0 players don't reliably direct their first and definitely not their second serves. This doesn't hurt them against 4.0 players generally but is death against 4.5 players. So, there will be a lot of break opportunities generated against the 4.0 players. If the 4.5 players have consistent level appropriate serves, they will make the 4.0 players beat them with their weaker side and there will be fewer break opportunities - so 1-2 breaks per set for the 4.5 players and probably 3 and 2 or so.

 

[McLovin]

Its hard to give a definitive answer because there is a huge discrepancy between 4.5 levels and 4.0 levels.

I play in a weekly non-USTA league at my club, but all of the people are 4.0-5.0 rated (I'm a 4.5, predominately singles). Some of the 4.0s are strong and can hang, some are weak and get overpowered. Likewise, some of the 4.5s are weak overall, or simply don't know the doubles game.

So, you can't just say "2 4.5 singles vs 2 4.0 doubles specialists" and expect to get a reasonable answer.

I will tell you that if they are all at equal spectrums of their respective levels, the 4.5 singles players will likely win 90% of the sets played, and most of them will be on the order of 6-2 or 6-3.

The 4.0 doubles team will probably win less than 5% of the matches.

 

[jdubbs]

I agree with LeeD on this one. I'm a 4.5 singles player but probably only 4.0 at doubles. My high, looping topspin shots don't work as well in doubles. I'm improving my volleying but most 4.5 singles players don't get much volleying practice.
It's just a completely different game.

It's why 2 doubles specialists can beat far better players in the pros (Bryan Bros). Neither of them can play singles worth a damn.

 

[TennisCJC]

Assuming the 4.0 doubles experts are about at the 50% mark within 4.0 technical abilities and the 4.5 singles experts are about at the 50% mark within 4.5 technical abilities. I think it will be a close match and either team could win. Typical singles players don't come to net much but even a 4.5 singles player that does not come to net much has decent volley skills and a basic understanding of doubles strategies.

My opinion is the 4.5 guys win a relatively close match say 6-4, 6-4 because their strokes will be superior - more pace, spin and placement on serve, and overheads will be put away, and returns may be hit back more consistently and aggressively.

Tactics and strategy are important but I think technical skills may trump tactics if the players are truly .5 level apart. Now, if the 4.5 singles guys are in the bottom 25% of the 4.5 level and the 4.0 guys are in the top 25% of the 4.0 level, maybe the technical skills will be close enough for tactics and strategy to win.

 

[RetroSpin]

I agree with LeeD on this one. I'm a 4.5 singles player but probably only 4.0 at doubles. My high, looping topspin shots don't work as well in doubles. I'm improving my volleying but most 4.5 singles players don't get much volleying practice.
It's just a completely different game.

It's why 2 doubles specialists can beat far better players in the pros (Bryan Bros). Neither of them can play singles worth a damn.

I'm going to take issue with this. The OP stipulated equal volleying ability. The Bryans volley better than virtually any singles player on Tour. They also return at a very high level. Their main downfall in singles is mobility.

I would expect the 4.5's to put a lot of pressure on the 4.0's service games, provided they have some basic understanding of playing doubles. They'll be returning from inside the baseline and coming in. The 4.0's will be lobbing a lot.

 

[LeeD]

Doubts here....
Most 4.5's are baseline machines, and would never choose to hit a topspin return and move to net position. Most don't know chip and charge. If they did, they'd be 4.5 level doubles players.
You forget, doubles is about sharp CC ROS's, not just a hard topspin ball up the middle.
And talking a 4.0 doubles team, they can volley pretty well, certainly more willing to volley than any baseline 4.5 level player.
I still say, a average 4.5 team beats an average 4.0 team by breadsticks.
BUT, a doubles specialized 4.0 team can easily take down a baseline oriented 4.5 team.

 

[saigonbond 2.0]

Doubts here....
Most 4.5's are baseline machines, and would never choose to hit a topspin return and move to net position. Most don't know chip and charge. If they did, they'd be 4.5 level doubles players.
You forget, doubles is about sharp CC ROS's, not just a hard topspin ball up the middle.
And talking a 4.0 doubles team, they can volley pretty well, certainly more willing to volley than any baseline 4.5 level player.
I still say, a average 4.5 team beats an average 4.0 team by breadsticks.
BUT, a doubles specialized 4.0 team can easily take down a baseline oriented 4.5 team.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote here, in particular the "baseline machines" part. However because I agree with this point, the 4.5's would simply go double back and bang away at weaker 4.0 serves. The end result IMO being the same easy W for the 4.5's.

 

[LeeD]

Easy fix against double back...... hit short, hit up the middle, drop shot, then check out their overheads or volleys.
When you hit up the middle, and especially short, you force both to come forwards and together.
One usually takes precedence over the other, so hit towards the other's side a little bit.

 

[saigonbond 2.0]

It's why 2 doubles specialists can beat far better players in the pros (Bryan Bros). Neither of them can play singles worth a damn.

This would be relevant (& probably accurate) if the discussion was concerning ATP pros. However, the OP wrote about 4.5/4.0's. Remember that Bob in singles was the US#1 junior, NCAA champ, & was around ATP top 100. Mike was the US#3 junior, played behind his bro @ Stanford, & was around ATP top 200. IMO that's slightly better than "not worth a damn in singles." That being said, I might agree if you qualified that statement comparing them to top ATP singles players...

 

[saigonbond 2.0]

Easy fix against double back...... hit short, hit up the middle, drop shot, then check out their overheads or volleys.
When you hit up the middle, and especially short, you force both to come forwards and together.
One usually takes precedence over the other, so hit towards the other's side a little bit.

I would agree this might be an effective strategy vs a couple 3.5's. IMO however, anything short vs some decent 4.5's and the 4.0's would be removing balls from their nether regions every other point. Furthermore, the 4.5's would be trying to take the net guy's head off when returning the weaker 4.0 serves and I can't see the 4.0's making much of a dent in the 4.5's service games.

 

[Backhanded Compliment]

One of the big jumps I see from 4.0 to 4.5 is the ability to consistently serve to your opponent's weakness. Most 4.0 players don't reliably direct their first and definitely not their second serves. This doesn't hurt them against 4.0 players generally but is death against 4.5 players. So, there will be a lot of break opportunities generated against the 4.0 players. If the 4.5 players have consistent level appropriate serves, they will make the 4.0 players beat them with their weaker side and there will be fewer break opportunities - so 1-2 breaks per set for the 4.5 players and probably 3 and 2 or so.

This is what Ive seen. When we mix 4.0's and 4.5's for doubles the 4.5 always and consistently targets their serve to the 4.0's weakness on important points. The return of the second serve is another huge difference. A true 4.5 will typically destroy a 4.0's second serve but more rarely vice versa.

 

[saigonbond 2.0]

NTRP chart
http://assets.usta.com/assets/639/15/National tennis Rating Program.pdf

 

[saigonbond 2.0]

Sorry off topic but totally digging your avatar BC lol

 

[LeeD]

You forget! Most baseline 4.5's hate the transition game. We're talking SINGLES 4.5's, not good volleyers in 4.5. Every 4.5 who volleys well is playing doubles also.
And every 4.0 I know who plays doubles has played against 5.0's who drop in, some 5.5's, and lots of 4.5's, so no shot is too special just because the hitter is a 4.5.
You seem to be talking about baseline 4.0's vs baseline 4.5, which the 4.5 should win by breadsticks.
Doubles is direction and placement of shot, not pure topspin power, two guys moving together, two guys playing all court tennis, and two guys able to handle, not pummel, a 4.5 level serve.

 

[floydcouncil]

The 4.5's win 2 and 2.

Very generous Goran. My experience says: 4.5 team wins 1 and 2. The 4.0's can't dominate on their serves, nor can they effectively return serves. If they are able to get to net, they have chances winning those points. But, I don't see that happening too often. The 4.5's will essentially dominate majority of the play.

 

[leroy_sunset]

I agree with LeeD on this one

said no one ever

I kid, I kid. The OP says they have equivalent volley skills. OP says they the 4.5 players are superior in every way (in this case, the most important are serve and return placement). I say 2 and 2 with a few prolonged deuce games and the 4.5s easing up in the second set.

 

[directionals]

Tactics and strategy are important but I think technical skills may trump tactics

I agree. We might be giving too much importance on strategies. Witness Jack Sock and Popisil who both are singles players, have great success in doubles and even beat the Bryan's brothers. The Williams' sisters also have great success in doubles.

 

[J_R_B]

Very generous Goran. My experience says: 4.5 team wins 1 and 2. The 4.0's can't dominate on their serves, nor can they effectively return serves. If they are able to get to net, they have chances winning those points. But, I don't see that happening too often. The 4.5's will essentially dominate majority of the play.

4.0s can't return a 4.5 serve? Since when? I find it funny all the board 4.5s stand up and puff their chests out and claim dominance over the 4.0 peons, but the only actual evidence presented so far is that me and my partner(s) (all 4.0s) had a fairly easy time playing 4.5 matches against guys who are normally singles players and not really comfortable playing doubles. The difference between one NTRP level is not as great as the difference between singles and doubles.

 

[onehandbh]

I don't think it's a one-size-fits-all situation.
A 4.5 player that doens't like volleying much, hits looping topspin, doesn't have a strong serve, and is more of a grinder/pusher is probably not going to be as good in doubles.

On average, though, most 4.5 players have better overall games than 4.0 players and will beat them in doubles. Hence the 0.5 difference.

In doubles you can also cover up weaknesses more easily and get away with having lower fitness and court coverage abilities.

How about Hawaii5.0 team vs JRB & his doubles partner?
Who wins?

4.0s can't return a 4.5 serve? Since when? I find it funny all the board 4.5s stand up and puff their chests out and claim dominance over the 4.0 peons, but the only actual evidence presented so far is that me and my partner(s) (all 4.0s) had a fairly easy time playing 4.5 matches against guys who are normally singles players and not really comfortable playing doubles. The difference between one NTRP level is not as great as the difference between singles and doubles.

 

[asimple]

4.0s can't return a 4.5 serve? Since when? I find it funny all the board 4.5s stand up and puff their chests out and claim dominance over the 4.0 peons, but the only actual evidence presented so far is that me and my partner(s) (all 4.0s) had a fairly easy time playing 4.5 matches against guys who are normally singles players and not really comfortable playing doubles. The difference between one NTRP level is not as great as the difference between singles and doubles.

I think it is actually about finding a match up that is really a full NTRP level difference.

If you played a top 4.0 team against two weaker 4.5 baseline singles players I think the 4.0s would win most of the time. If you played a top 4.0 doubles team on a district bound team against the two top singles players on a 4.5 district bound team the 4.5s would win easily every time baseliners or not.

 

[J_R_B]

I think it is actually about finding a match up that is really a full NTRP level difference.

If you played a top 4.0 team against two weaker 4.5 baseline singles players I think the 4.0s would win most of the time. If you played a top 4.0 doubles team on a district bound team against the two top singles players on a 4.5 district bound team the 4.5s would win easily every time baseliners or not.

My 4.0 team made districts but lost there this year, but my partners in the 4.5 matches were guys from my national runner up team last year (this was our move-up team in 4.5). The 4.5 team we played is playing in 40+ sectionals next month.

 

[asimple]

My 4.0 team made districts but lost there this year, but my partners in the 4.5 matches were guys from my national runner up team last year (this was our move-up team in 4.5). The 4.5 team we played is playing in 40+ sectionals next month.

I didn't quite get that.

Is this the same case I suggested?

 

[Setmatch45]

I would say this there is a huge difference in strength within the 4.0 rating. So for this conversation I would want to say that all players are sectional level within there ratings. I would still think the 4.5 hit them off the court so that is my pick. An example is Jack Sock goes out and beats mike an bob by he and his partner blasting balls. Mike and Bob have better skills of course also Sock had never been in that huge spot before.

 

[ednegroni]

Generally speaking, the 4.5 singles players would win against "top 4.0 doubles players".

In PR, a lot of 4.0 got bumped up for this past season, and NONE had any clear success. I'm mainly a doubles player and we would win without breaking a sweat (literally in some cases). I could have pair both my singles and the would still have won convincingly)

You might get a case of two of those recently (bumped up 4.0s/actual 4.5s) that could lose against up and coming top 4.0 doubles players, but it's not something to be expected in most cases.

 

[OrangePower]

I think it is actually about finding a match up that is really a full NTRP level difference.

If you played a top 4.0 team against two weaker 4.5 baseline singles players I think the 4.0s would win most of the time. If you played a top 4.0 doubles team on a district bound team against the two top singles players on a 4.5 district bound team the 4.5s would win easily every time baseliners or not.

Exactly this.

Is it possible for a 4.0 pairing to beat a 4.5 pairing? Sure it is. Lot's of variation within each level, and a pair of 4.0s who are close to being bumped up and are dubs guys will likely beat a pair of low 4.5 singles players.

But in the case where the pair of 4.5s is a combined 1.0 DNTRP above that of the 4.0 pair, the 4.5s win 90+% of the time, even when the 4.0s are dubs specialists and the 4.5s are singles guys.

And I think that was the scenario stipulated by the OP

 

[jdubbs]

I agree. We might be giving too much importance on strategies. Witness Jack Sock and Popisil who both are singles players, have great success in doubles and even beat the Bryan's brothers. The Williams' sisters also have great success in doubles.

Actually I watched Sock play doubles 3 years ago, he moved forward and volleys extremely well, like a seasoned doubles player. His doubles success didn't surprise me.