2 piece stringing: Is it advisable to string the crosses beginning in the middle?

ricardo

Hall of Fame
Mains
When stringing the mains, you usually start in the middle (12/6) and alternate from side to side.

Crosses
When stringing crosses, you usually start from the head going down

Crosses starting at 9/3
Is it advisable to string crosses starting from the middle (i.e 9/3) and alternate up/down? What are the pros/cons of doing this?

Thanks in advance...
 

pstar

New User
Can someone please explain why I have to use an starting clamp on the outside of the frame all the way up and down when doing the 50/50?

Why can`t I just do the crosses like I do the mains, and just use the two fixed clamps on my machine, alternating up and down?

There can be something obvious I`m missing :), but kept thinking about that when watching the video from Yulittle.
 

PBODY99

Legend
A case where it is better to have an older set up

Can someone please explain why I have to use an starting clamp on the outside of the frame all the way up and down when doing the 50/50?

Why can`t I just do the crosses like I do the mains, and just use the two fixed clamps on my machine, alternating up and down?

There can be something obvious I`m missing :), but kept thinking about that when watching the video from Yulittle.
Which type of clamps do you have ? Bar clamps such as the Neos 1000 can do the trick It gets a little tight but the bottom clamp holds while you use the top clamp to work to the tip, then complete from the middle down as normal.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
The 50/50 method was brought out by Babolat I believe to reduce the weaving on gut strings. You started your string centered in the middle for the mains and had 20' on each side. When you get to the end of the mains you took each tail up to the center and worked center to top and center to bottom.

The two piece 50/50 method is a little different. You string your mains with one piece and then start the crosses in the center and work center to top and bottom.

For the Prince O3 and EXO3 frame the 50/50 method will not work but the two piece 50/50 works great.

It is really going to depend on what type of clamps you have available as to whether or not you can or can not use this method. If you use the YULitle method (actually the two piece 50/50 and not the 50/50) and you have fixed clamps it seems to me like a waste of time. I am not too keen on balancing stress in the cross and the process he uses to do that increases time required to string the frame. If you have flying clamps you could string the top half of the crosses with one clamp and the bottom half with the other. If one of them falls off or slips you are in deep trouble.

I use the two piece 50/50 to string the Prince rackets some times but always string the top half of the crosses first then the bottom half of the crosses. After all the crosses are tensioned I tie off the bottom and top crosses. Using the two piece 50/50 method on Prince rackets you never have to have a boomerang, sharpie cap, support the racket with a brake or your hip and you can string any Prince on any stringer with nothing else needed. When I talked to Prince about this method they suggested stringing all the top crosses first then all the bottom crosses rather than alternating. And by the way it is an accepted method of stringing the Prince rackets.

The problem with stringing 2 piece 50/50 is you have little room to work with the ends of the crosses at both the 12 and 6 o'clock positions. With some of the Prince rackets the way they block holes and have wierd tie offs locations you could be asking for trouble stringing some soft multis.

Edit - To answer the original quesiton I would not advise someone to string the crosses from the center out (like the mains) unless they were doing it for a specific purpose. There are more disadvantages than there are advantages for most strings and rackets.

Irvin
 
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pstar

New User
Which type of clamps do you have ? Bar clamps such as the Neos 1000 can do the trick It gets a little tight but the bottom clamp holds while you use the top clamp to work to the tip, then complete from the middle down as normal.
I use a stringway ml 100, with the single action t92 clamps!

And to you Irvin; I understand it`s more disadvantages then advantages for most racquets, but I do string alot of prince 03`s so I`ll give this a try the next time.
Have used the brake up til now for these racquets.
But since you get a very sharp angel on the first 0`ports, I don`t think thats the optimal method.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
I use a stringway ml 100, with the single action t92 clamps!

And to you Irvin; I understand it`s more disadvantages then advantages for most racquets, but I do string alot of prince 03`s so I`ll give this a try the next time.
Have used the brake up til now for these racquets.
But since you get a very sharp angel on the first 0`ports, I don`t think thats the optimal method.
For the Prince rackets I would advise the use of the 2 piece 50/50 method. But if you are going to use fixed clamps you must have a starting clamp.

Irvin
 

Carolina Racquet

Professional
For the Prince rackets I would advise the use of the 2 piece 50/50 method. But if you are going to use fixed clamps you must have a starting clamp.

Irvin

Irvin... I imagine the good ole starting pin discussion we had a few days ago would be a great solution for the 50/50 stringing technique. Is there something I'm missing? Thx.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Irvin... I imagine the good ole starting pin discussion we had a few days ago would be a great solution for the 50/50 stringing technique. Is there something I'm missing? Thx.
If you are using flying clamps yes but then you would have to use one flying clamp on both sides of the frame to string the top crosses as the other one would be clamped to the start pin until string the bottom crosses. I would not alternate the stringing of the top and bottom crosses like you do the mains. String the top half first and the bottom half last.

Irvin
 

stringwalla

Rookie
The 50/50 method was brought out by Babolat I believe

Irvin
It was the recommended approach on the Wilander Rossignol F-200 from the 80's.
He did use VS exclusively I think.

Yonex was one the few back then that said "no" to the 50/50-
 

Carolina Racquet

Professional
I use one all the time on the O ports when I do the mains. You need to use the washer so the top of the start pin doesn't go through the O port.
 

Carolina Racquet

Professional
50/50 and frame stress

I just did a 50/50 cross on a Prince 03 Blue and it works really well with the stringing angles and the ports. I started in the middle and strung towards the top first, tied off, then strung the middle to the throat last (the Irvin Method).

In the Yulitle video he advocates stringing the middle and working both directions, similar to how you string mains.

Since I have a Klippermate with a limited brake and that cumbersome silver "block" adjacent to the tension jaw, I want to use the 50/50 going forward.

The question I have is concerning frame stress. Rule of thumb is string crosses from top down. Goes against my instinct to string crosses toward the top even though I'm starting in the middle vs. the bottom.

Logically, you'd think the Yulitle approach distributes stress more than Irvin's, but I find Irvin always has a common sense approach with his techniques.

What's best... Yulitle or Irvin's method of 50/50? Thanks.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
I don't understand how rackets flex and what the difference is racket stress is depending on how the racket is strung. Before I used the 2 piece 50/50 I called Prince to verify it was ok. They said it was so I continue to use it. Because I have fixed clamps that will only work on one side of the frame it would be bothersome to use the 'YULitle' method but doable. I would have to used a starting clamp to hold the string when not using the fixed clamps. Because you have flying clamps you could just used one clamp on the bottom and the other on top. I would check with Prince first though.

When stringing a normal racket as in 'YULitle's' video it only makes sense to use the 50/50 method as you would string the mains. When you string your crosses the first half of the crosses is always easier then stringing the bottom half. When you use a 50/50 method it is like stringing two lower halves of the racket. I have heard that Babolat came up with a 50/50 pattern to reduce the stress on stringing gut. So there are three reasons for using a 50/50 method:

1 - Reduse stress on strings by have only half as many crosses to string
2 - Equalize the racket stress in the top and bottom half of the racket
3 - Make it easier to string rackets without normal grommets. For instance, Wilson Rollers, and Prince O Ports.

So I guess it all depends on what you are trying to do.

Irvin
 
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Carolina Racquet

Professional
Thanks Irvin... I reread some of your previous posts and knowing you called Prince is of great comfort as well.

I just felt I might have been putting undo stress on the frame when doing the 2 piece 50/50 and doing towards the top first.

So my objective was only to make stringing the O/EXO3/Speedport frames easier, and not ruin one along the way.

Thanks again.
 
If you string an O3 racket this way, you're going to have a bear of a time getting the top cross (or 2nd from top) through the blocked hole. I think there is one hole that's covered by 2 strings. I always pre-weave the top 2 crosses when stringing those frames. You'll have an extra hard time if stringing gut or a multi.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
^^ Steve I agree you are going to have problems stringing the top and bottom few crosses on the Prince O Port rackets you should not see a hole blocked by two strings on many of those rackets. Most of them skip 7H and 9H and the tie off is 8H for the mains so there are won't be any holes blocked by a two string overlap. This is the case for the O3 Blue. I often put a scrap string in 7H and 9H just to keep the holes open.

The only time you should ever have two strings blocking a hole is if you cross over from the third cross to the top cross and weave the second cross last.

Irvin
 
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VGP

Legend
I just felt I might have been putting undo stress on the frame when doing the 2 piece 50/50 and doing towards the top first.
I read an article from RSI Magazine a while back where they said that you can cause undue stress on your frames while stringing 50/50 (and stringing your frame from bottom up for that matter).

As you go from center toward the top of the frame, stress is placed at the "shoulders" of the racket, 2 and 10. It's not as bad at the 7 and 5 since the throat of the racket is there.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru

Carolina Racquet

Professional
Big fan of the 50/50, but ran into the blocked hole problem in my EXO3 Tour.

The last cross hole is very close to the 7th main hole and it was very difficult to feed the cross into the that hole because feeding it FROM the string bed,

I had to use an awl, but it was high risk.

My next string job I'm considering using a piece of waxed dental floss in the loop between 7 and 8 main that I can use to help lift it slightly when I feed in my last cross. I THINK I can slide out the floss afterwards with no risk of damaging any string.

Any other suggestions??? Thanks.
 

Carolina Racquet

Professional
Well... I tried that and still the string 'buckled' when I tried to push it through. If that works 9 times out of 10, I probably will try again before I 'floss'!
 

Carolina Racquet

Professional
No Doubt the Way to Go with Prince Port Frames

I've moved the the EXO3 Tour frames and strung a few of the old O port frames and I'm convinced the 2-piece 50/50 is the way to go with theses frames.

No more bizarre angles, no more setting the machine break and trying to get one of the boomerang tools.

I have even put a small black dot with a Sharpie between the ports where my cross starting loops begin (in 16 x 18 pattern, middle loop on the "long side").

Thanks to Irvin for convincing me this is the way to go. I no long dread stringing these frames.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
^^Thanks. Think Plane Geometry now and not Solid Geometry. Be careful your dot does not move on you. And you thought Sharpies were permanent markers. LOL

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. When you pull tension on a string the string will go straight from the tension head to the pivot point on the turn table (remember think plane geometry.) Because of this the string will always tend to rest in the top of the O Port above the pivot point and in the bottom of the O Port in the below the pivot point.

If your stringer's 6 and 12 o'clock support move independently of each other your pivot may change relative to the mounted racket. All cross strings above the pivot point will tend to rest in the top of the O Port and all those below the pivot point will rest in the lower half. Therefore, if you move your pivot point you may think your dot has moved.

Irvin
 

Carolina Racquet

Professional
^^^ Ok... now I'm scratching my head... because to do the 2 piece 50/50, I'll need to start my loop on the long side and in the middle of the hoop (where there's 9 cross strings going towards the top and 9 going towards the bottom when there's 18 crosses).

The two initial crosses will have the loop on the long side and both will go through one port on the short side. By the way, my handy dandy starting pin is just the ticket for the initial pull on the crosses, in the same way you start the mains.

Are you saying there would some other place to start? Can't imagine it... but I seldom doubt your logic.
 

weksa

Rookie
Irvin, you're always so quick to put up great videos. Thanks a lot for that. Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines is my favorite subforum on TT because of the kind of responses I see from all you helpful people.
 

Carolina Racquet

Professional
That makes it more understandable, but will that center be off enough on each stringjob that you will need to start on a different side?

I thought it was more of an issue of the ANGLES of the string from the port to the stringer. Away from center, either at the top or the bottom, the angle will be against the edge of the port rather than to the middle.

I kind of get it... help me get the rest of the way there. Thanks.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
^^That depends on your stringer. If your top and bottom support adjust independently then yes if they don't then know. You racket will spin around the pivot point for your turn table. If there rackets center and the turn table center are not concentric then as you adjust the mounts the pivot changes. You should always have a straight line from your tension head to the pivot point. If the cross string is above the pivot point it will pull up. It the cross string is below the pivot point it will pull down. If the main string is to the left of the pivot point it will pull left. If the main string is to the right of the pivot point it will pull right.

Let me expain it a different way. When you string a Prince from top to bottom the first O Port where a string exits will give you trouble. The string need to lay in the bottom of the O Port for you to clamp it correctly. But if you are above the pivot point it does not.

Once you get past the pivot point don't you notice there is no need for a break, boomerang, or anything. That's because you are below the pivot point and the string pull down to the bottom of the O Port.

Irvin
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
That makes it more understandable, but will that center be off enough on each stringjob that you will need to start on a different side?

I thought it was more of an issue of the ANGLES of the string from the port to the stringer. Away from center, either at the top or the bottom, the angle will be against the edge of the port rather than to the middle.

I kind of get it... help me get the rest of the way there. Thanks.
When you tension a string there is no angle if the string is pulled normally. You can draw a direct line from the tension head to the O Port to the Pivot point. The angle come into play from the O Port to the cross string.

Irvin
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
All stringers unless improperly desinged will pull away from the center of the turntable. See picture below I put a dowel rod in line with the tension head gripper.



If you slide your top and bottom mounts up or down so the racket's center and the turn table's center then how the strings pull will be different.

Irvin
 

Carolina Racquet

Professional
Got it... So if I mark where I located my "stems" on the turntable bar (Klippermate) I can consistently use one side. If they are slide more off-center, then I can have a problem using the same starting ports each time.
 
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fortun8son

Hall of Fame
I don't understand how rackets flex and what the difference is racket stress is depending on how the racket is strung. Before I used the 2 piece 50/50 I called Prince to verify it was ok. They said it was so I continue to use it. Because I have fixed clamps that will only work on one side of the frame it would be bothersome to use the 'YULitle' method but doable. I would have to used a starting clamp to hold the string when not using the fixed clamps. Because you have flying clamps you could just used one clamp on the bottom and the other on top. I would check with Prince first though.

When stringing a normal racket as in 'YULitle's' video it only makes sense to use the 50/50 method as you would string the mains. When you string your crosses the first half of the crosses is always easier then stringing the bottom half. When you use a 50/50 method it is like stringing two lower halves of the racket. I have heard that Babolat came up with a 50/50 pattern to reduce the stress on stringing gut. So there are three reasons for using a 50/50 method:

1 - Reduse stress on strings by have only half as many crosses to string
2 - Equalize the racket stress in the top and bottom half of the racket
3 - Make it easier to string rackets without normal grommets. For instance, Wilson Rollers, and Prince O Ports.

So I guess it all depends on what you are trying to do.

Irvin
The way I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, the reason you want to string from top to bottom is that the top(12o'clock) is the weakest part of the frame and by starting there you support the hoop with a cross immediately. The bottom is supported by the handle yoke. The mains are strung alternately from the middle out because you have mounting support at 12 and 6 o'clock. I do not know of any mounting system that supports the frame from the inside at 3 and 9 o'clock! It is possible to distort the frame by stringing crosses from the middle out.
 
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Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Before I ever did this I called Prince to make sure it was ok. The only type of racket I do this for is Prince. If it is ok with Prince and works great I am going to continue to do it.

Irvin
 

Carolina Racquet

Professional
Irvin... curious why you think it is better to string the crosses from middle to top first rather than starting in the middle and alternating top/bottom crosses, similar to how you string the mains?

I have not had a problem with going middle to top, but I'm a curious guy and would like to know more about the reasoning.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
It really wouldn't matter to me but it is going to be difficult to do with fixed clamps because you have to continually move the clamps from top to bottom to top. I guess if you are walking flying clamps it wouldn't be too bad. But the main reason I do it is because Prince said to do the top first then the bottom. Sorry, I didn't ask why.

Irvin
 

Carolina Racquet

Professional
Now that makes sense re: the fixed clamps. As you know, 'YuLite' demonstrates the different method.

My instinct is that if you better distribute the stress from the middle out, less chance of problem in the upper hoop area.

Is there a structural engineer in the house?? :)
 
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