2004-2006 vs. 2014-2016

Which years were stronger?

  • 2004-2006

  • 2014-2016

Results are only viewable after voting.
zvelf

zvelf

Hall of Fame
People keep on resorting to lazy weak era complaints. I don't think mid-2000s or mid-2010s were particularly all that weak. But if you insist on comparing them, let's look at the top 5 players from 2004-2006 vs. 2014-2016 with their slam results that year listed in order of AO, F, W, US:

2004 #1 Roger Federer (W, 3, W, W) vs. 2014 #1 Djokovic, Novak (QF, F, W, SF)
2004 Fed

2004 #2 Andy Roddick (QF, 2, F, QF) vs. 2014 #2 Roger Federer (SF, 4, F, SF)
2014 Fed

2004 #3 Lleyton Hewitt (4, QF, QF, F) vs. 2014 #3 Nadal, Rafael (F, W, 4, DNP)
2014 Rafa narrowly

2004 #4 Marat Safin (F, 4, 1, 1) vs. 2014 #4 Wawrinka, Stanislas (W, 1, QF, QF)
2014 Stan

2004 #5 Moya, Carlos (DNP, QF, 4, 3) vs. 2014 #5 Nishikori, Kei (4, 1, 4, F)
Too close to call

2005 #1 Roger Federer (SF, SF, W, W) vs. 2015 #1 Djokovic, Novak (W, F, W, W)
2015 Novak

2005 #2 Nadal, Rafael (4, W, 2, 3) vs. 2015 #2 Murray, Andy (F, SF, SF, 4)
2015 Murray

2005 #3 Andy Roddick (SF, 2, F, 1) vs. 2015 #3 Roger Federer (3, QF, F, F)
2015 Fed

2005 #4 Lleyton Hewitt (F, DNP, SF, SF) vs. 2015 #4 Wawrinka, Stanislas (SF, W, QF, SF)
2015 peak Stanimal

2005 #5 Davydenko, Nikolay (QF, SF, 2, 2) vs. 2015 #5 Nadal, Rafael (QF, QF, 2, 3)
Too close to call

2006 #1 Roger Federer (W, F, W, W) vs. 2016 #1 Murray, Andy (F, F, W, QF)
2006 Fed

2006 #2 Nadal, Rafael (DNP, W, F, QF) vs. 2016 #2 Djokovic, Novak (W, W, 3, F)
2016 Novak

2006 #3 Davydenko, Nikolay (QF, QF, 1, SF) vs. 2016 #3 Raonic, Milos (SF, 4, F, 2)
Too close to call

2006 #4 Blake, James (3, 3, 3, QF) vs. 2016 #4 Wawrinka, Stanislas (4, SF, 2, W)
2016 Stan

2006 #5 Ljubicic, Ivan (QF, SF, 3, 1) vs. 2016 #5 Nishikori, Kei (QF, 4, 4, SF)
2016 Kei

Results are 10-2 with 3 ties for 2014-2016 being stronger than 2004-2006.
 
Only Federer apologists assume the likes of Baghdatis, Gonsalez or even Roddick and Hewitt are stronger competition, than Murray, Wawrinka or Nadal, all of whom Djokovic had to face in his finals, he had only two really weak instances - one against Tsonga and another against Anderson this year, for others - he had to fight his butt to win GS titles!...Del Potro this year didn't play spectacular tennis either in USO final, but was still way more formidable opponent for Novak, than Baghdatis or Philipossis ever been for Federer!
 
2005 ftw. Enjoyed that year so much.

Djokovic was decently tested in a good number of his matches during his domination and played great in a lot of them, though Murray delivered a stinker in the 2016 finals.
 
Djokodalerer31 said:
Only Federer apologists assume the likes of Baghdatis, Gonsalez or even Roddick and Hewitt are stronger competition, than Murray, Wawrinka or Nadal, all of whom Djokovic had to face in his finals, he had only two really weak instances - one against Tsonga and another against Anderson this year, for others - he had to fight his butt to win GS titles!...
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Yes, but that wasn't the case anymore in 2014-2016. That is the period which helped Novak ascend from Becker level to Sampras level. 2014-2016 was weaker than 2011-2013.

And no, Murray and Wawrinka are not stronger competition than what Federer faced in his peak years. They only seem greater because Djokovic was not good enough to stop them.
 
mike danny said:
Yes, but that wasn't the case anymore in 2014-2016. That is the period which helped Novak ascend from Becker level to Sampras level. 2014-2016 was weaker than 2011-2013.

And no, Murray and Wawrinka are not stronger competition than what Federer faced in his peak years. They only seem greater because Djokovic was not good enough to stop them.
Click to expand...

LMAo stop it please! This is silly! LOL Everybody knows, that in his peak years ONLY Nadal was Federer's real threat! While Novak potentially has at least three people, who could stop him in this decade!
 
This era talk is tiresome. How many times has this topic been discussed, and discussed again, and discussed again? It's the same posters over and over posting the same things. Surely repetition of the same points ad nauseam, when you know pretty much for a fact that you aren't going to be changing anyone's minds, isn't worthwhile?
 
graphwrite.aspx
 
Djokodalerer31 said:
LMAo stop it please! This is silly! LOL Everybody knows, that in his peak years ONLY Nadal was Federer's real threat! While Novak potentially has at least three people, who could stop him in this decade!
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Fed had Nadal, but Djoker had no one. And no, Murray and Wawrinka are not stronger than the guys Fed faced.
 
mike danny said:
Fed had Nadal, but Djoker had no one. And no, Murray and Wawrinka are not stronger than the guys Fed faced.
Click to expand...
the other day a Novak fan was arguing KAndy is unlucky not to have a couple of slams by now...
edit, ah, it was sword:
swordtennis said:
Kandy gets too much flack around here. Without fed and djokovic around he prob has a couple majors. Dude has a big game.
Click to expand...
 
mike danny said:
Fed had Nadal, but Djoker had no one. And no, Murray and Wawrinka are not stronger than the guys Fed faced.
Click to expand...

This is laughable. 2004-2006 Federer had 18-20 year old 2 major winner Rafael Nadal, 2 major winner Lleyton Hewitt, 1 major winner Andy Roddick, 0 major finals Nikolay Davydenko. 2014-2016 Djokovic had 33-35 year old 17 major winner Roger Federer, 14 major winner Rafael Nadal, 3 major winner Andy Murray, 3 major winner Stan Wawrinka.
 
swordtennis said:
You do realize this is only in the fed fan world? I truly hope you seek an intervention. Lol.
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I usually only respond like this to the posts that are meant to denigrate Fed.

But Murray and Stan would influence Fed's slam count anyway, which was my point.

And stop with the dramatizing. Intervention. LOL. It's just sports talk. Nothing is serious here.
 
zvelf said:
This is laughable. 2004-2006 Federer had 18-20 year old 2 major winner Rafael Nadal, 2 major winner Lleyton Hewitt, 1 major winner Andy Roddick, 0 major finals Nikolay Davydenko. 2014-2016 Djokovic had 33-35 year old 17 major winner Roger Federer, 14 major winner Rafael Nadal, 3 major winner Andy Murray, 3 major winner Stan Wawrinka.
Click to expand...
Following your logic 2018 was even tougher as Novak had 20 major winner Fed, 17 major winner Rafa etc., etc.

As for Rafa, he was a non-factor in the 2014-2016 period post FO 2014.
As for Fed, he was quite old, but still capable (but a non-factor for most of 2016).
As for Murray, he's gone 4-17 or so since the US Open 2012 vs. Djoko (and 2 of those wins came once Novak started showing decline). He was no more of a threat to Novak than Roddick was to Fed. Iirc, he wasn't exactly a problem for any of the top guys in all of 2014. Fed hasn't lost a set to him since AO 2014.
As for Wawa, he wasn't a slam contender until Novak made him one (jk a wee bit) and he's yet to beat Federer on HC, where he took not one, but 2 slams off Djoko in Djoko's peak years ;-)
As for the rest, there were none.
 
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zvelf said:
This is laughable. 2004-2006 Federer had 18-20 year old 2 major winner Rafael Nadal, 2 major winner Lleyton Hewitt, 1 major winner Andy Roddick, 0 major finals Nikolay Davydenko. 2014-2016 Djokovic had 33-35 year old 17 major winner Roger Federer, 14 major winner Rafael Nadal, 3 major winner Andy Murray, 3 major winner Stan Wawrinka.
Click to expand...
It's laughable how you count Nadal in this equation and say that he has 14 slams to hide the fact that he was a shell of a player in 2014-2016.

Rafael Nadal in 2004-2006 was tougher than Fed in 2014-2016. At least he was winning slams and dominating a surface.

You omit 8 time slam champion Andre Agassi for Fed.

Murray and Stan wouldn't have 3 majors if they played in 2004-2006.
 
Chanwan said:
Following your logic 2018 was even tougher as Novak had 20 major winner Fed, 17 major winner Rafa etc., etc.

As for Rafa, he was a non-factor in the 2014-2016 period post FO 2014.
As for Fed, he was quite old, but still capable.
As for Murray, he's gone 4-17 or so since the US Open 2012 vs. Djoko (and 2 of those wins came once Novak started showing decline). He was no more of a threat to Novak than Roddick was to Fed
As for Wawa, he wasn't a slam contender until Novak made him one and he's yet to beat Federer on HC, where he took not one, but 2 slams off Djoko in Djoko's peak years ;-)
As for the rest, there were none.
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It's funny how he wrote 14 time major champion Nadal to mask the fact that Rafa was a shell of a player back then.
 
abmk said:
Not IMO.
2004 > 2014
2005 >> 2015
2006 > 2016

2014 was an OK year, but 2004 was clearly stronger
2015 was relatively weak, on par with 2006. but 2005 was considerably stronger
2006 was relatively weak, but 2016 was even weaker.
Click to expand...
2005 had some terrific matches and Fed had to play a top 5 player in every GS semi that year. Don't remember the last time someone had to do that. Probably 2012 Djoker?
 
SuperSpinner said:
Doesn't that mean the field was stronger in 2004-2006 since the top guys couldn't win as much at the slams?
Click to expand...
Statistically, luck can be influent only on the presence of few great players, not on the level of a whole field.
 
mike danny said:
Yes, but that wasn't the case anymore in 2014-2016. That is the period which helped Novak ascend from Becker level to Sampras level. 2014-2016 was weaker than 2011-2013.

And no, Murray and Wawrinka are not stronger competition than what Federer faced in his peak years. They only seem greater because Djokovic was not good enough to stop them.
Click to expand...

So, in your view, Djokovic wasn't stronger competition that what Fed had to face in his peak years either? In which case, it's small wonder he wasn't good enough to stop the 'likes' of Murray and Wawrinka! ;)
 
Mainad said:
So, in your view, Djokovic wasn't stronger competition that what Fed had to face in his peak years either? In which case, it's small wonder he wasn't good enough to stop the 'likes' of Murray and Wawrinka! ;)
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Mainad it should be obvious, Murray only let people beat him because he's such a nice guy. If he wanted to he would double bagel every single player on the ATP tour but he let's them have a chance.
 
Lew said:
Murray lost slams to Djokovic, Djokovic, Federer.

Nadal to Hewitt, Muller, Blake.
Click to expand...
Lleyton Hewitt is the second GOAT behind MuryGOAT. Both are nice guys who let everyone else beat them. But Murry is nicer to the top players so he only let them win.

It's the only thing that makes sense with all of his QFs, SFs and F runs. He had the form to beat even 2015 Djokovic but he was too nice.
 
We all know Roddick, Baghdatis, Philippoussis had the best slam final performances ever.

Now an irrelevant cherrypicking delusional stat:

In the last 74 slam finals, when a player met someone who has reached in his career less than half of his slam finals, he beat him 36 times out of 42 (85.7%).
 
mike danny said:
And no, Murray and Wawrinka are not stronger competition than what Federer faced in his peak years. They only seem greater because Djokovic was not good enough to stop them.
Click to expand...
This is laughable. I have no problem admitting Federer is the greatest player of all time because he is. It's a shame Federer fans can't also admit when truth is truth but cling to everything you all believe gives your fave an advantage. There is no circumstance under which it can be successfully argued that any player Federer faced between 04-06 off clay was generally better or as good as Andy Murray of 14-16. NO.WAY.
 
2014-16 Federer, Murray and Wawrinka reached more slam semifinals than any of 2004-06 Federer's opponents.
 
14-16 are weaker.

Best way to calculate competition is to compare who the top guy had to face.

In 04-06 Fed only had 1 year with 0 prime ATG competition (2004)

Novak had 2 (2015-2016) and also Nadal in 2014 wasn’t as good as 05-06.
 
Born Again said:
2014-2016 >> 2004-2006

Not open for discussion tbh, only fanatic fed devotees will disagree
Click to expand...

Only Novak fanatics think 2015 Fed was some amazing high level competition at slams... where he could barely keep a FH in play with any depth.

You surely can’t have watched the guy play from 03-12.
 
zvelf said:
This is laughable. 2004-2006 Federer had 18-20 year old 2 major winner Rafael Nadal, 2 major winner Lleyton Hewitt, 1 major winner Andy Roddick, 0 major finals Nikolay Davydenko. 2014-2016 Djokovic had 33-35 year old 17 major winner Roger Federer, 14 major winner Rafael Nadal, 3 major winner Andy Murray, 3 major winner Stan Wawrinka.
Click to expand...

If Djokovic actually had to face the beast Federer who won like 11/16 slams in 2004-2007 and had a FH feared by all... would even have won a W/USO title in 2014-2015? I personally doubt it.

Murray and Wawrinka would be 0-1 slam winners in Fed’s era.. the 1 being possibly 2004 RG for Stan if he brings 2015 level.
 
I love how these Novak fans (read Federer haters) don't talk about the competition in 2011-13, you know, when it actually was strong, because Novak only had one ATG year in 2011 before having 2 years of mediocre results, losing the No1 rank temporarily in 2012 and completely in 2013. Instead they spend their time trashing 2004-6 while bigging up 2014-16, when Novak actually successfully dominated for more than a year. Neither period had the strongest competition. But in their respective periods, Federer won 8 slams, Novak 6. Nothing to do with competition. Novak got beaten by Nishikori at USO and beaten by Querrey at Wimbledon after winning NCYGS. He also got bested at his own pet slam by Stan, a one time AO finalist and champion.
 
upchuck said:
This is laughable. I have no problem admitting Federer is the greatest player of all time because he is. It's a shame Federer fans can't also admit when truth is truth but cling to everything you all believe gives your fave an advantage. There is no circumstance under which it can be successfully argued that any player Federer faced between 04-06 off clay was generally better or as good as Andy Murray of 14-16. NO.WAY.
Click to expand...
Murray's h2h vs. the big 3 in that time frame:
Muzz vs. Fed: 0-5 and 1-12 in sets, including a bagel and a breadstick
Muzz vs. Djoko: 3-13. And before Rome 2016 - when Djoko had already started to slow down - it was 1-12 (and the vast majority weren't even close, Muzz failed to win a set in 7 out of those 12).
Muzz vs. Rafa: 2-3 (note, this was by far the worst period in Rafa's career, yet he came away with a h2h lead vs. Muzz).

In other words, the great Andy Murray of 2014-2016 spend the first 2.4 years of that time frame going down 1-17 to Fedovic (failing to win a set in 11 out of those 17). Let that sink in
 
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Chanwan said:
Murray's h2h vs. the big 3 in that time frame:
Muzz vs. Fed: 0-5 and 1-12 in sets, including a bagel and a breadstick
Muzz vs. Djoko: 3-13. And before Rome 2016 - when Djoko had already started to slow down - it was 1-12.
Muzz vs. Rafa: 2-3 (note, this was by far the worst period in Rafa's career, yet he came away with a h2h lead vs. Muzz).

In other words, the great Andy Murray of 2014-2016 spend the first 2.4 years of that time frame going down 1-17 to Fedovic. Let that sink in
Click to expand...

H2h is not a good argument dear Fed fan, trust me :-D
 
Towny said:
I love how these Novak fans (read Federer haters) don't talk about the competition in 2011-13, you know, when it actually was strong, because Novak only had one ATG year in 2011 before having 2 years of mediocre results, losing the No1 rank temporarily in 2012 and completely in 2013. Instead they spend their time trashing 2004-6 while bigging up 2014-16, when Novak actually successfully dominated for more than a year. Neither period had the strongest competition. But in their respective periods, Federer won 8 slams, Novak 6. Nothing to do with competition. Novak got beaten by Nishikori at USO and beaten by Querrey at Wimbledon after winning NCYGS. He also got bested at his own pet slam by Stan, a one time AO finalist and champion.
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I talk about 2011-13 too. Terrible years to peak, Djokovic lost 7 slam finals/semi to the Big4.

You are right about 2014-16 losses, but beating 10 times the Big4 sure does not have the same value as beating Roddick and Baghdatis..
 
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Lew said:
You are right about 2014-16 losses, but beating 10 times the Big4 sure does not have the same value as beating Roddick and Baghdatis..

I talk about 2011-13 too, anyway. Terrible years to peak, Djokovic lost 7 slam finals/semi to the Big4
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Novak had very strong competition in 2011-2013, no denying it. He remained very consistent and his 2011 run was one of the most impressive things in tennis history. The issue is that I don't think there's good evidence prime Federer would have done worse against Novak's 2014-16 competition than his own. I'm not saying Novak's competition was garbage, but I think that Fed would have handled it fine. As such, we can talk about what slams are worth etc but it doesn't change the actual totals and in this case, Federer would have done just fine in 2014-16.

In any case, I don't actually think 2014-16 is stronger than 2004-6 anyway but it wouldn't really matter if it had been
 
upchuck said:
This is laughable. I have no problem admitting Federer is the greatest player of all time because he is. It's a shame Federer fans can't also admit when truth is truth but cling to everything you all believe gives your fave an advantage. There is no circumstance under which it can be successfully argued that any player Federer faced between 04-06 off clay was generally better or as good as Andy Murray of 14-16. NO.WAY.
Click to expand...
Did I not speak the truth?

Andy Murray of 2014-2016 would not be stopping Fed from winning majors. He may be more accomplished, but he wouldn't be tougher to beat.
 
Slam semifinals reached by 4 players

2003: 8
2004: 7
2005: 10
2006: 9
2007: 11
2008: 12
2009: 10
2010: 9
2011: 14
2012: 13
2013: 10
2014: 9
2015: 12
2016: 10
2017: 8
2018: 8

graphwrite.aspx
 
mike danny said:
Did I not speak the truth?

Andy Murray of 2014-2016 would not be stopping Fed from winning majors. He may be more accomplished, but he wouldn't be tougher to beat.
Click to expand...
2014-16 Federer, Murray and Wawrinka had better results than any of Federer's 2004-06 opponents---> Fact

2004-06 Federer would have beaten them or players of the same caliber ---> Opinion
 
zvelf said:
This is laughable. 2004-2006 Federer had 18-20 year old 2 major winner Rafael Nadal, 2 major winner Lleyton Hewitt, 1 major winner Andy Roddick, 0 major finals Nikolay Davydenko. 2014-2016 Djokovic had 33-35 year old 17 major winner Roger Federer, 14 major winner Rafael Nadal, 3 major winner Andy Murray, 3 major winner Stan Wawrinka.
Click to expand...

2004-2006 Federer also had 2 major winner Marat Safin and 8 major winner Andre Agassi in addition to clay GOAT Nadal, Hewitt, Roddick and Davydenko.
In the AO 2004, Safin beat Roddick in the quarters and then defending champ Agassi in a five set semi final, so Marat must have been playing well at the AO that year. He beat Roger on the way to winning the title the following year.

I don't think there's much between 2004-2006 and 2014-2016 at all.
 
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