2004 a significantly better year than 2014 in men's tennis

zvelf

Professional
eh, I was talking about the particular tournaments, not whole years while making those specific comparisions.
Even so, no way is 2004 33-year old Agassi equal to 2014 26-year old Djokovic at the AO even if they won a similar number of games during the tournament. 26-year old Djokovic would comfortably beat 33-year old Agassi.

And no way is 2004 AO Safin better than 2014 AO Nadal. Safin lost 9 sets and 129 games to reach the final. Nadal lost 1 set and 67 games to reach the final.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
losing a double break lead shouldn't happen in the first place, for a grassgoat on grass in his prime... how silly does that look. So that limits the credit Roddick can get by the discredit Federer has to get for this. You don't give a good opponent a double break lead and expect to win the set, however much effort you put into coming back.

As for Hewitt, well what do we say about passivity, obviously this is no weaponless journeyman level and Fred was locked in but Hewitt not being able to stop the onslaught at all until he found the first serve doesn't cast the most favourable light. Unless we say plainly that such an on-fire Federer whoops anyone including Djokovic, which is fine, but then why even bother with flaunting competition if it is irrelevant to who wins, i.e. Federer. Whooping 2014 Dimitrov in straight sets certainly looks like reasonable speculation, Dimitrov's slice would be completely neutralised so nothing to really bother Fed with.
well compare Hewitt to say 2012 Djokovic, if you compare to 2014 then that's just making it a bloodbath in favor of 2004. You don't think 04 Fed could have taken 2012 Djoker to the bakery? In general Joe did serve better, but opportunities for a double break were certainly there in the third set and 12 Fed nearly gave 12 Joe a breadstick as is. In the first two sets yeah, Joe was serving well enough to avoid that.
 
Even so, no way is 2004 33-year old Agassi equal to 2014 26-year old Djokovic at the AO even if they won a similar number of games during the tournament. 26-year old Djokovic would comfortably beat 33-year old Agassi.

And no way is 2004 AO Safin better than 2014 AO Nadal. Safin lost 9 sets and 129 games to reach the final. Nadal lost 1 set and 67 games to reach the final.
Testable, provable, relevant. Most of all, extremely objective. I doff my haah to thee.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Well the winner had a tougher draw in 3/4 slams in 2014 except the USO, even if 2004 AO had more quality matches but they were on the other side.

2014 was a fairly strong year though the top level was fluctuating, but Wawrinka Tsonga Cilic all had nice runs saving its competitive grace. The season withered by the end though (Paris, YEC) as prelude to the rather monotonous 2015, while 2004 had Safin gear up in the fall for what would be an all-time conquest the following year, so it sure makes for a better narrative.
2014 wasn't bad, but it was dominatable. Djokovic's level in 2014 just wasn't as high as Fed's in 2004.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I don’t normally give threads like this much credence when no stats are invoked, but even a cursory check against your stat-less assumptions show your judgments to be so off-base as to question the entirety of your conclusion.



Djokovic ended 2014 ranked #1 and was 65-8 on the year, an 89% win percentage. His major results were QF at AO, F at FO, W at Wimbledon, SF at USO, and he won the YEC.
Agassi ended 2004 ranked #8 and was 37-13 on the year, a 74% win percentage. His major results were SF at AO, 1R at FO, DNP at Wimbledon, QF at USO.
They are not remotely close. 2014 Djokovic is far better than 2004 Agassi.



Nadal ended 2014 ranked #3 and was 44-11 on the year, an 80% win percentage. His major results were F at AO, W at FO, 4R at Wimbledon, DNP at USO, and he DNP at the YEC.
Safin ended 2004 ranked #4 and was 52-23 on the year, a 69% win percentage. His major results were F at AO, 4R at FO, 1R at Wimbledon, 1R at USO, and he made SF at the YEC.
2014 Nadal is clearly better than 2004 Safin.
He's talking about, I think, the respective tournament in question. 2004 Safin at the AO was indeed better than 2014 Nadal.

Safin also won 2 masters in 2004 as well.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Fed's opponents in AO, W and USO Sfs and Finals took exactly 1 set of off him in 6 matches. Few of them Medvedev style.
Ok, fair enough.

But Fed faced Hewitt and Nalbandian before the semis at 2004 AO, both of whom took sets.

Faced Hewitt in the 2004 Wimb QF, who took a set. That was pretty much the real semi.

Faced Agassi in the 2004 USO QF who took 2 sets. Again, virtually the real semi.

Hence the great depth in 2004.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
losing a double break lead shouldn't happen in the first place, for a grassgoat on grass in his prime... how silly does that look. So that limits the credit Roddick can get by the discredit Federer has to get for this. You don't give a good opponent a double break lead and expect to win the set, however much effort you put into coming back.

As for Hewitt, well what do we say about passivity, obviously this is no weaponless journeyman level and Fred was locked in but Hewitt not being able to stop the onslaught at all until he found the first serve doesn't cast the most favourable light. Unless we say plainly that such an on-fire Federer whoops anyone including Djokovic, which is fine, but then why even bother with flaunting competition if it is irrelevant to who wins, i.e. Federer. Whooping 2014 Dimitrov in straight sets certainly looks like reasonable speculation, Dimitrov's slice would be completely neutralised so nothing to really bother Fed with.
But doesn't Fed get credit for the 4th set comeback at USO 2015 when he should have lost 6-1 or 6-2?
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Even so, no way is 2004 33-year old Agassi equal to 2014 26-year old Djokovic at the AO even if they won a similar number of games during the tournament. 26-year old Djokovic would comfortably beat 33-year old Agassi.

And no way is 2004 AO Safin better than 2014 AO Nadal. Safin lost 9 sets and 129 games to reach the final. Nadal lost 1 set and 67 games to reach the final.
Safin played better opponents than Nadal did in the quarters and semis.
 

pj80

Hall of Fame
Of course 2004 was better. You didn't have the same 2-3 people winning slams every single event, there was some surprise and variety in both the results and the individual players.
right, you only had 1 in 2004...and there was also Grosjean and Henman
 

zvelf

Professional
Safin played better opponents than Nadal did in the quarters and semis.
Even if we don't count the quarters and semis, Safin lost 5 sets and 76 games to reach the quarters. Nadal lost 0 sets and 35 games to reach the quarters. Nadal was #1 in the world and coming off a U.S. Open title. He was better than this Safin who was taken to 5 sets by Roddick and 5 sets by 33-year old Agassi. This was prime 27-year old 13-major-winner Nadal with a 7-3 record against Roddick and 2-0 record against Agassi.
 

NoleIsBoat

Hall of Fame
2004 being called stronger than 2014 when Henman and Grosjean were making slam SFs :-D :-D :-D

2004 ATGs:
Federer
Agassi (on hard courts only)

2014 ATGs:
Djokovic
Federer
Nadal
Murray
 

zvelf

Professional
Murray was garbage in 2014 by his standards.
2014 wasn't Murray at his highest peak, but he was far from bad. Only in Wimbledon did Murray get upset (by Dimitrov). In every other 2014 slam, Murray got stopped by one of the Big 3: Federer at Australian, Nadal at French, and Djokovic at US Open.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
pls enlighten
Nah I said I would stop responding to this clown and I'm a man of my word
Meanwhile reality: The "Guru" wrote something on the lines of
I learnt today that 2004 Agassi similar to 2014 Djokovic and 2004 Safin > 2014 Nadal.

Not realizing that was specifically for AO 2004 vs AO 2014. Realized it a minute later and hence the delete part.
Nice try at cover up though, The Mendacious
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
2014 wasn't Murray at his highest peak, but he was far from bad. Only in Wimbledon did Murray get upset (by Dimitrov). In every other 2014 slam, Murray got stopped by one of the Big 3: Federer at Australian, Nadal at French, and Djokovic at US Open.
Murray didn't just get beat by Nadal at RG, he got ROFLSTOMped. GOt through 2 close 5-setters to get to the semi
got straight-setted by Dimi - couldn't even win a set

federer was generous enough to give him a set in AO 14 QF.

Murray was struggling to make the 2014 WTF.

He was a generic top 10 player in 2014, nothing more.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Even so, no way is 2004 33-year old Agassi equal to 2014 26-year old Djokovic at the AO even if they won a similar number of games during the tournament. 26-year old Djokovic would comfortably beat 33-year old Agassi.
no, he wouldn't. Both were on similar levels.

And no way is 2004 AO Safin better than 2014 AO Nadal. Safin lost 9 sets and 129 games to reach the final. Nadal lost 1 set and 67 games to reach the final.
Nadal had to rely on a Dimi choke to win the QF. A pretty good chance Roddick of AO 04 QF beats him.
Nadal did play better/well in the semi vs fed, but Safin was clearly better vs Agassi in the AO 04 SF
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Even if we don't count the quarters and semis, Safin lost 5 sets and 76 games to reach the quarters. Nadal lost 0 sets and 35 games to reach the quarters. Nadal was #1 in the world and coming off a U.S. Open title. He was better than this Safin who was taken to 5 sets by Roddick and 5 sets by 33-year old Agassi. This was prime 27-year old 13-major-winner Nadal with a 7-3 record against Roddick and 2-0 record against Agassi.
Roddick and Agassi > Dimitrov and Federer in those respective tournaments though. It's not particularly close.
 

zvelf

Professional
Roddick and Agassi > Dimitrov and Federer in those respective tournaments though. It's not particularly close.
If the point is to show Federer faced greater competition in 2004 because he faced Safin in the final because Safin beat Roddick and Agassi in 5 sets each, then you're not really showing that. You're showing Federer beat an exhausted Safin in the final.

no, he wouldn't. Both were on similar levels.
Merely asserting that 33-year old Agassi was equal to 26-year old Djokovic is not evidence of anything and kind of ridiculous.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Merely asserting that 33-year old Agassi was equal to 26-year old Djokovic is not evidence of anything and kind of ridiculous.
what is ridiculous is not watching the matches/making up stuff like this. Agassi took peak Safin to 5 sets, playing darn well . Djoko got beat by Wawrinka (worse than peak Safin, though not by a big margin) in 5 sets.
So yeah, both on the same level.

Djokovic OTOH while being 28 years old was better in AO 16 semi/final than in AO 14 in general or AO 14 QF specifically. That Djokovic was better than AO 04 Agassi.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
If the point is to show Federer faced greater competition in 2004 because he faced Safin in the final because Safin beat Roddick and Agassi in 5 sets each, then you're not really showing that. You're showing Federer beat an exhausted Safin in the final.



Merely asserting that 33-year old Agassi was equal to 26-year old Djokovic is not evidence of anything and kind of ridiculous.
I'm not trying to show anything. And I'm not even overrating Fed's win over Safin. I realize he was gassed.

I'm just saying that in that tournament, Nadal was not better than Safin irrespective of how many sets Safin dropped because Safin faced tougher opponents than Nadal.
 

ElisRF

Semi-Pro
2004 vs 2014

2004 AO vs 2014 AO : Safin, Federer, Agassi,Hewitt, Nalbandian, Roddick,Ferrero b/w > and >> Wawrinka, Djokovic, Nadal, Berdych, Federer

2004 Fed > 2014 Wawrinka
2004 Agassi ~ 2014 Djokovic
2004 Safin > 2014 Nadal
2004 Nalby > 2014 Fed
2004 Roddick > 2014 Berdych

no equivalents for 2004 Hewitt, 2004 Ferrero honestly

2004 FO vs 2014 FO : Gaudio, Coria, Nalbandian, Kuerten, Moya, Henman, Federer b/w < and << Nadal, Djokovic,Ferrer, Gulbis
2004 with clearly better depth, Nadal/Djoko swings it in favour of 2014 FO obviously

2004 Wim vs 2014 Wim: Federer, Roddick, Ancic, Hewitt, Henman, Grosjean > Djokovic, Federer, Dimi, Raonic, Cilic, Wawrinka, Tsonga

2004 Wim Fed > 2014 Wim Djokovic
2004 Wim Roddick > 2014 Wim Fed
2004 Wim Hewitt > anyone else in Wim 2014
.....
Gap reduces a bit considering Djoko also faced a tricky Stepanek in R2


2004 USO vs 2014 USO: Federer, Agassi, Hewitt, Henman, Roddick, Johansson b/w > and >> Cilic, Nishi, Djoko,Fed,Wawrinka, Raonic, Simon

2004 USO Fed > 2014 USO Cilic
2004 USO Hewitt > 2014 USO Nishi
2004 USO Agassi > 2014 USO Djoko
2004 USO Johansson >~ 2014 USO Raonic
2004 USO Roddick > 2014 USO Wawrinka
2004 USO Henman < 2014 USO Fed

no equivalent for 2014 Simon in 2004 (only one to trouble Cilic)


So 2 slams in 2004 significantly better than in 2014, one significantly better in 2014 and one better in 2004

2004 YEC vs 2014 YEC : Federer, Hewitt, Safin, Roddick b/w > and >> Djokovic, Federer, Stan, Nishi

Federer > Djokovic
Hewitt >~ Federer (Fed was better in RR, but shaky in semi)
Safin > Stan
Roddick ~ Nishi

RR was a complete bloodbath in 2014 YEC in both halves due to weak level and slow surface.
Also no final.

Therefore 2004 YEC b/w > and >> 2014 YEC

--------------

early HC season minus AO : 2004 > 2014 (a little better)
IW 04 had fed, agassi, henman, roddick
IW 14 had djoko, fed, isner, dolgo

Fed IW 04 > Djoko IW 14
Agassi IW 04 >~ Fed IW 14
Henman IW 04 > Isner IW 04
Roddick IW 04 > Dolgo IW 14

IW 04 somewhere b/w > and >> IW 14

Miami 04 : Roddick beat Moya in QF, Coria beat Gonzo in SF.

Miami 14 : Both Nadal/Djokovic got walkover in the semis. Djokovic had another walkover. Nadal beat Raonic, Djokovic beat Murray in QF. Nishi upset Fed.

Miami 04 < Miami 14 (mainly due to Djoko)

Clay season minus RG: 14 better by a clear margin

Monte Carlo 2004 b/w < and << Monte Carlo 2015: Coria, Safin, Nalby, Moya in 2004 b/w < and << Wawrinka, Federer, Djokovic, Ferrer, Nadal
Rome 2004 << Rome 2014: Moya, nalby, Costa in 2004 << Djokovic,Nadal,Ferrer,Murray, Raonic(crap final from nalby)
Hamburg 2004 >> Madrid 2014
Federer came through a draw of Gaudio, Gonzalez, Moya, Hewitt to get to the final. Final was a good one. In 14, Nishi retired due to injury. had beaten ferrer, Lopez. nadal had beaten RBA, berdych.

North America HC season minus USO : 2004 ~ 2014 by a clear margin

Canada 04 ~ Canada 14

Roddick came through to the final easily and Fed beat him convincingly.
Fed had 2 Tbs vs Mirnyi (big server) and an entertaining shotmaking match vs arazi in 1st round, lost 1st set vs Johansson

fed of canada 04 > tsonga of canada 04
roddick of canada 04 >~ fed of canada 14

But Tsonga equalizes with wins over Djoko&Murray

Cincy 04 b/w >&>> Cincy 14
Agassi of Cincy 04 > fed of cincy 14
roddick, hewitt in Cincy 04 better than any one of ferrer, robredo,Murray,Cilic of Cincy 14

Indoor season minus YEC : 14 better

madrid 04 had safin in peak form better than fed of shanghai 14 (exception: semi with similar level)
madrid 04 had agassi, shanghai 14 had djokovic. similar level
simon annoyed fed in the shanghai 14 final. nalby could've played better in Madrid 04 final even if he was up against a superlative Safin.

so about even in the end at Madrid

paris 04 safin ~ paris 14 djokovic
hewitt in paris 04 > anyone else in Paris 14
but Paris 14 had berdych, raonic, nishi, fed, murray. better depth clearly.

edge to Paris 14

So to sum it up , IMO :

2004 AO b/w > and >> 2014 AO
2004 RG b/w < and << 2014 RG
2004 Wim > 2014 Wim
2004 USO b/w > and >> 2014 USO

2004 YEC b/w >&>> 2014 YEC

early HC season minus AO : 2004 > 2014
clay season minus RG : 2004 < 2014 (clearly)
North America HC season minus USO : 2004 > 2014
Indoor season minus YEC : 2004 < 2014

2004 clearly better in slams by some distance
2004 significantly better at the YEC
the non major events in 14 is a little better than 2004 (thanks to clay season)

So 2004 was a significantly better year than 2014 in men's tennis
Another good breakdown. I think that the draws they faced in slams would be more meaningful when talking competition for Federer and Djokovic though.
 

zvelf

Professional
what is ridiculous is not watching the matches/making up stuff like this. Agassi took peak Safin to 5 sets, playing darn well . Djoko got beat by Wawrinka (worse than peak Safin, though not by a big margin) in 5 sets.
So yeah, both on the same level.
Well, feel free to destroy your own credibility asserting 33-year old Agassi = 26-year old Djokovic on his best surface. Wawrinka, who only had to play 10 sets over the first 4 rounds, was in peak manimal mode to beat Djokovic and that Warwinka is greater than peak Safin coming off a 5-setter against Roddick.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Well, feel free to destroy your own credibility asserting 33-year old Agassi = 26-year old Djokovic on his best surface. Wawrinka, who only had to play 10 sets over the first 4 rounds, was in peak manimal mode to beat Djokovic and that Warwinka is greater than peak Safin coming off a 5-setter against Roddick.
Safin peaked from the 2nd set of AO 04 QF at that AO through to the semi of that AO. which you would know if you watched.
Feel free to make a fool out of yourself without watching/knowing sh*t though.
Safin in that AO 04 semi > Wawrinka of AO 14 QF

oh and Wawr in a prime year 2016 got beat by Roddick lite in AO 16. So maybe think twice before talking about Safin going 5 vs peak Roddick, eh?
I also added this in case you missed it: Djokovic OTOH while being 28 years old was better in AO 16 semi/final than in AO 14 in general or AO 14 QF specifically. That Djokovic was better than AO 04 Agassi.
 

zvelf

Professional
Safin peaked from the 2nd set of AO 04 QF at that AO through to the semi of that AO. which you would know if you watched.
Feel free to make a fool out of yourself without watching/knowing sh*t though.
Safin in that AO 04 semi > Wawrinka of AO 14 QF

oh and Wawr in a prime year 2016 got beat by Roddick lite in AO 16. So maybe think twice before talking about Safin going 5 vs peak Roddick, eh?
I also added this in case you missed it: Djokovic OTOH while being 28 years old was better in AO 16 semi/final than in AO 14 in general or AO 14 QF specifically. That Djokovic was better than AO 04 Agassi.
I don't care that 28-year old Djokovic was better than 33-year old Agassi. It's irrelevant to 26-year old Djokovic also being better than 33-year old Agassi. You're cherry-picking down to the set now. The truth is that Safin lost 5 sets and 76 games just to reach Roddick in the quarters. Wawrinka played an overall better 2014 Australian Open than Safin played a 2004 Australian Open. For one thing, Wawrinka never lost during the entire tournament.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
I don't care that 28-year old Djokovic was better than 33-year old Agassi. It's irrelevant to 26-year old Djokovic also being better than 33-year old Agassi. You're cherry-picking down to the set now. The truth is that Safin lost 5 sets and 76 games just to reach Roddick in the quarters. Wawrinka played an overall better 2014 Australian Open than Safin played a 2004 Australian Open. For one thing, Wawrinka never lost during the entire tournament.
Yes, Wawrinka did play better 2014 AO than Safin did in AO 2004 overall.
But point of comparision was specifically 2 matches - 2014 AO QF and AO 2004 SF because they beat Djokovic and Agassi specifically in those matches. Safin played better in the AO 2004 SF than wawrinka did in AO 14 QF.

At last statement: well, jeez, wawr never faced peak Fed. hasn't even beaten well past prime fed on any HC. Safe to say, 2004 AO fed would take out 2014 AO wawrinka.
 
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Sunny014

Hall of Fame
2010 = Weakest year when Nadal capitalized the downfall of Federer and Djokovic not yet arrived to win 3 slams in an year.
 

duaneeo

Legend
2004 FO vs 2014 FO : Gaudio, Coria, Nalbandian, Kuerten, Moya, Henman, Federer b/w < and << Nadal, Djokovic,Ferrer, Gulbis
2004 with clearly better depth, Nadal/Djoko swings it in favour of 2014 FO obviously
Disagree. Neither Rafa nor Nole displayed top-level tennis during the 2014 clay season (including RG), and the FO final was a bust that ended with a double-fault. This doesn't top the depth/anticipation/excitement (with a bang final) of 2004 RG.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Disagree. Neither Rafa nor Nole displayed top-level tennis during the 2014 clay season (including RG), and the FO final was a bust that ended with a double-fault. This doesn't top the depth/anticipation/excitement (with a bang final) of 2004 RG.
I'm talking about the quality/level of tennis, not excitement.
 

duaneeo

Legend
I'm talking about the quality/level of tennis, not excitement.
Me too. Rafa cruised the first week, but mainly because of the competition (or lack thereof). When he faced competition in the QF vs Ferrer, he lost a set against him for the first time (and only) time at RG. I actually remember being impressed only by Ferrer at 2014 RG, as he seemed intent on proving his previous year run to the final wasn't a fluke. Djokovic (who was perhaps more favored to win RG than ever due to Rafa's poor results at the warmups) struggled throughout the tournament, and was poor in the final.

2004 Gaudio vs 2014 Rafa: It's easy to simply say Rafa because he's Rafa, but this is actually difficult.
2004 Coria vs 2014 Djokovic: Coria
2004 Henman vs 2014 Gulbis: Gulbis
2004 Nalbandian vs 2014 Murray: Nalbandian
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Me too. Rafa cruised the first week, but mainly because of the competition (or lack thereof). When he faced competition in the QF vs Ferrer, he lost a set against him for the first time (and only) time at RG. I actually remember being impressed only by Ferrer at 2014 RG, as he seemed intent on proving his previous year run to the final wasn't a fluke. Djokovic (who was perhaps more favored to win RG than ever due to Rafa's poor results at the warmups) struggled throughout the tournament, and was poor in the final.

2004 Gaudio vs 2014 Rafa: It's easy to simply say Rafa because he's Rafa, but this is actually difficult.
2004 Coria vs 2014 Djokovic: Coria
2004 Henman vs 2014 Gulbis: Gulbis
2004 Nalbandian vs 2014 Murray: Nalbandian
2014 Rafa over 2004 Gaudio easily - most particularly due to final. not difficult.
Rafa lost one set vs Ferrer? so what? he turned up from ending stages of 2nd set till the end of that match. last 2 sets were a bagel and breadstick.
Nadal also crushed Murray in the semi

2004 Coria ~ 2014 Djokovic (similar level)
Djoko didn't struggle throughout the tournament. He lost 1 set before the semi and that was a TB set to Cilic.
Coria also had a tussle vs Henman.

Djokovic started off well in the RG 2014 final for about set and half, his dip was after that.
 
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