2005-2007 Nadal or 2022-2024 Alcaraz?

[clout]

Now that Alcaraz has basically wrapped up in his 2024 season, how would rate Carlos' performance in his age 19-21 seasons with Nadal's first 3 competitive seasons from 2005-2007 when Rafa was also ages 19-21? If we break it down by stats, they are honestly very close in a lot of statistics.

Ages
Nadal - 19 to 21
Alcaraz - 19 to 21

Slams Won
Nadal - 3
Alcaraz - 4

Masters Titles
Nadal - 9
Alcaraz - 5

Total Titles
Nadal - 22
Alcaraz - 15

Weeks at N1
Nadal - 0
Alcaraz - 36

Year End Rankings
Nadal - 2, 2, 2
Alcaraz - 1, 2, 3

Wins vs Top 10
Nadal - 26
Alcaraz - 32

Overall Record
Nadal - 208W-37L (84.9%)
Alcaraz - 175W-38L (82.2%)

Best Performance at Each Slam
Nadal - AO (QF), RG (Wx3), WI (RUx2), US (QF)
Alcaraz - AO (QF), RG (W), WI (Wx2), US (W)

Best Performance at Each Masters
Nadal - IW (W), MIA (RU), MC (Wx3), ROM (Wx3), MAD (RU), CAN (W), CIN (QF), SHA (W), PAR (RU)
Alcaraz - IW (Wx2), MIA (W), MC (R2), ROM (3R), MAD (Wx2), CAN (QF), CIN (RU), SHA (QF), PAR (QF)

Performances at WTF
Nadal - DNP, SF, SF
Alcaraz - DNP, SF, RR

Best Performance at Olympics
Nadal - NH
Alcaraz - Silver

Win %/Titles/Majors by Surface
Nadal - Hard (75%/5/0), Grass (74%/0/0), Clay (97.2%/17/3)
Alcaraz - Hard (77%/5/1), Grass (92%/3/2), Clay (86.3%/7/1)

 

[nolefam_2024]

Alcaraz is straight up better for me because he won 3 different slams. Nadal won 3 rg.

Almost every nadal thread comes down to clay skew.

Raz also way more top 10 wins.

 

[MeatTornado]

Nadal for peak.

On the other hand, Nadal for consistency.

 

[jl809]

Nadal on 2 surfaces (and indoor HC tbh lol)

 

[jl809]

Alcaraz is straight up better for me because he won 3 different slams. Nadal won 3 rg.

Almost every nadal thread comes down to clay skew.

Raz also way more top 10 wins.

Who did Nadal play at Wimbledon in 06 and 07 and what is the current ATP top 10 lol

Young Raz is even debatable in terms of being better than young Djoker let alone young Nadal

 

[NoleFam]

Nadal had much more titles (more Masters) but less wins against the top 10. Shows the difference in the two eras. Alcaraz getting YE #1 and weeks at #1 despite achieving less. Also shows the difference in the two eras.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Who did Nadal play at Wimbledon in 06 and 07 lol

Whoever he did. Don't make excuses. Raz has usopen as well. Where is nadal in that time frame ??

 

[nolefam_2024]

With 1 more Wimbledon title raz will be better grass player than nadal. With 2 if he can, almost a top 5 open era great.

 

[clout]

Alcaraz is straight up better for me because he won 3 different slams. Nadal won 3 rg.

Almost every nadal thread comes down to clay skew.

Raz also way more top 10 wins.

I would have to agree. Alcaraz, by the eye test, just seems to be much more well-rounded and hence a better overall tennis player at this age than Rafa was at 19-21.

The one 'external' factor that always makes this comparison harder to decide though is peak Federer. With all due respect to Sinner and old Nole, Alcaraz never had to go up against someone like that week-after-week the way young Rafa had to with peak Fed (Rafa likely gets 1-2 Wimbledon titles, 2 YECs, 1-2 Year end number 1's, and likely 50-100 weeks at number 1 if you replaced peak Fed with Sinner/old Djokovic).

With that said, Alcaraz gets the edge for me as well

 

[nolefam_2024]

I would have to agree. Alcaraz, by the eye test, just seems to be much more well-rounded and hence a better overall tennis player at this age than Rafa was at 19-21.

The one factor that always makes this comparison harder to decide though is peak Federer. With all due respect to Sinner and old Nole, Alcaraz never had to go up against someone like that week-after-week the way young Rafa had to with peak Fed (Rafa likely gets 2 Wimbledon titles, 2 YECs, 3 Year end number 1's, and likely 50-100 weeks at number 1 if you replaced peak Fed with Sinner/old Djokovic).

With that said, Alcaraz gets the edge for me as well

I have counted matches with them. Nadal had fed many times. That is advantage nadal.

But you always have context. Nadal played fed 3 times in RG and 2 times in wimby. Probably 0 times in atp finals. These are big ticket items. Then there are countless Rome mc and maybe 2/3 hard court tournaments.

 

[clout]

I have counted matches with them. Nadal had fed many times. That is advantage nadal.

But you always have context. Nadal played fed 3 times in RG and 2 times in wimby. Probably 0 times in atp finals. These are big ticket items. Then there are countless Rome mc and maybe 2/3 hard court tournaments.

Rafa lost in the SF to Fed in 06 and 07 at the YEC

 

[nolefam_2024]

Rafa lost in the SF to Fed in 06 and 07 at the YEC

There you go. Then rafa definitely tougher competition.

 

[zakopinjo]

Еasy, Nadal

 

[NatF]

Nadal. Better player in a better era.

 

[Berrettini_Fan]

Alcaraz has better achievements but Nadal would've dominated him H2H on every surface.

 

[nolefam_2024]

.

 

[AleYeah]

Nice breakdown, @clout . On the one hand, Nadal's era was mighty tough. On the other, 4 slams on 3 surfaces is hard to vote against. Slight nod to Carlos for me... but I can see changing my mind in 10 minutes.

 

[JoelSandwich]

Nadal and it’s not close

 

[Mustard]

2005-2007 Nadal of course. Nadal won a total of 22 tournaments from the beginning of 2005 to the end of 2007, which included 3 majors and 9 masters. He also had an 81 wins in a row streak on clay in that period, and had peak Federer in his way.

Alcaraz has won a total of 15 tournaments from the beginning of 2022 to the end of 2024, which include 4 majors and 5 masters.

Some people don't realize how good 2005-2007 Nadal was, i.e. how fast and mobile he was. Nadal had a weakness at the time against big flat hitters on hardcourt, but he was nearly always dialled in and ready for the challenge.

 

[Mustard]

Nadal on 2 surfaces (and indoor HC tbh lol)

Won 2005 Madrid Indoor on indoor hardcourt, reached two YEC semi finals in 2006 and 2007 where Federer beat him (Nadal couldn't play the YEC in 2005 because of injury).

 

[Racquet_smash]

One had a winning record vs peak Federer and beat him in all 3 slams he won.

The other has a losing record against old man Djokovic.

Do your math.

 

[Mustard]

Nadal had much more titles (more Masters) but less wins against the top 10. Shows the difference in the two eras. Alcaraz getting YE #1 and weeks at #1 despite achieving less. Also shows the difference in the two eras.

26 to 32 wins against top 10, but Nadal beat Federer 8 times by the end of 2007.

 

[Mustard]

Whoever he did. Don't make excuses. Raz has usopen as well. Where is nadal in that time frame ??

Ran into Blake and Youzhny at the US Open, who hit him off the court with flat shots on hardcourt.

Nadal's 2005 Canadian Open win though, was brilliant, even the casual way that he held serve all but two times in the entire tournament. 2007 Indian Wells was similar.

 

[Racquet_smash]

Ran into Blake and Youzhny at the US Open, who hit him off the court with flat shots on hardcourt.

Nadal's 2005 Canadian Open win though, was brilliant, even the casual way that he held serve all but two times in the entire tournament. 2007 Indian Wells was similar.

Nadal comprehensively defeated Agassi at that tournament who was thriving on those courts even at 35. Nobody at US22 is comparable.

 

[Neptune]

One era top players hardly even show up?

Age 19-21​	vs Top5​	T5 Weight​	vs Top10​	T10 Weight​	vs T11+​	T11+ Weight​	vs All​
Alcaraz​	27 (19-8) 70.37%​	12.68%​	48 (32-16) 66.67%​	22.54%​	165 (143-22) 86.67%​	77.46%​	213 (175-38) 82.16%​
Rafa​	23 (15-8) 65.22%​	9.39%​	39 (26-13) 66.67%​	15.92%​	206 (182-24) 88.35%​	84.08%​	245 (208-37) 84.90%​

 

[NoleFam]

26 to 32 wins against top 10, but Nadal beat Federer 8 times in 2005-2007.

7 times in 2005-2007, and 1 time in 2004. It shows Alcaraz played against a more consistent top 10 in those years than Nadal, because he played them more in less tournaments.

 

[Mustard]

One era top players hardly even show up?

Age 19-21​	vs Top5​	T5 Weight​	vs Top10​	T10 Weight​	vs T11+​	T11+ Weight​	vs All​
Alcaraz​	27 (19-8) 70.37%​	12.68%​	48 (32-16) 66.67%​	22.54%​	165 (143-22) 86.67%​	77.46%​	213 (175-38) 82.16%​
Rafa​	23 (15-8) 65.22%​	9.39%​	39 (26-13) 66.67%​	15.92%​	206 (182-24) 88.35%​	84.08%​	245 (208-37) 84.90%​

Nadal beat peak Federer a lot.

 

[Mustard]

7 times in 2005-2007, and 1 time in 2004. It shows Alcaraz played against a more consistent top 10 in those years than Nadal, because he played them more in less tournaments.

Nadal won 11 tournaments in 2005, including 1 major and 4 masters. Federer that same year won 11 tournaments, 2 majors and 4 masters.

Alcaraz, Sinner etc. never had that sort of aura. The depth of opposition seemed tougher back then, too, although 2006 at the time was called out for not being as tough as the immediate prior years.

 

[NoleFam]

Nadal won 11 tournaments in 2005, including 1 major and 4 masters. Federer that same year won 11 tournaments, 2 majors and 4 masters.

Yes, exceptional but that doesn't change what I said though. However, Alcaraz wouldn't have been #1 if he swapped places with Nadal. He got some luck there especially considering he had less than 7000 points at the end of 2022.

 

[Mustard]

Yes, exceptional but that doesn't change what I said though. However, Alcaraz wouldn't have been #1 if he swapped places with Nadal. He got some luck there especially considering he had less than 7000 points at the end of 2022.

And the 81 wins in a row on clay, while holding off a peak Federer that people were expecting to sweep Nadal aside. It just felt a lot bigger, even compared to the Alcaraz vs. Djokovic Wimbledon finals, probably because Alcaraz is a young man (especially by today's standards) at 20-21, while Djokovic was 35-36 and thus getting old in tennis terms. Federer in 2005-2007 was age 23-26, and Nadal was a teenage/early 20s phenom with a contrasting style to Federer's.

Alcaraz's instinctive approach on grass though, is better on grass than Nadal's more methodical routines style. Grass rewards aggressive play and instinctive play more than routines and patience, especially when you yourself have momentum on your side.

 

[Sport]

Nadal won 11 tournaments in 2005, including 1 major and 4 masters. Federer that same year won 11 tournaments, 2 majors and 4 masters.

Alcaraz, Sinner etc. never had that sort of aura. The depth of opposition seemed tougher back then, too, although 2006 at the time was called out for not being as tough as the immediate prior years.

Sinner has a massive aura.

The way he's dominating Medvedev is impressive, reminds me of Federer dominating Roddick.

Also, how's beating a Federer with 0 RG titles at that time (2005-2007) more impressive than defeating a 7-times defending champion at W who hadn't lost since 2018, and who had remained unbeaten by Fedal since 2012 at the tournament?

Alcaraz's victory over Novak at W 2023 was totally unexpected and it's already an iconic and historic match of the 2020s decade.

 

[NoleFam]

And the 81 wins in a row on clay, while holding off a peak Federer that people were expecting to sweep Nadal aside. It just felt a lot bigger, even compared to the Alcaraz vs. Djokovic Wimbledon finals, probably because Alcaraz is a young man (especially by today's standards) at 20-21, while Djokovic was 35-36 and thus getting old in tennis terms. Federer in 2005-2007 was age 23-26, and Nadal was a teenage/early 20s phenom with a contrasting style to Federer's.

Alcaraz's instinctive approach on grass though, is better on grass than Nadal's more methodical routines style. Grass rewards aggressive play and instinctive play more than routines and patience, especially when you yourself have momentum on your side.

I wouldn't say it felt bigger back then. It was like the beginning of a rivalry but Federer "only" had 4 Slams at 2005 RG. He was the man in charge but that's different than a young ATG taking down a guy with 23 Slams and 7 Wimbledons, and who hadn't lost on that court in a decade. It was like an earthquake when Alcaraz defeated Djokovic in 2023, despite the age.

To me, it's all about stroke production. Alcaraz's more compact strokes (I sound like @zill here) are better for lower bouncing surfaces as well as his natural instinct to move forward, and play more 1st strike. This is why Alcaraz will probably end up figuring out indoor courts eventually.

 

[duaneeo]

Easily 2005-2007 Nadal. He made the final of 10 big tournaments, won titles at 6 of those tournaments, was the 3-time champion at 3 of those tournaments, and won 12 big titles (8 in BO5 finals).

 

[Rosstour]

Alcaraz is straight up better for me because he won 3 different slams. Nadal won 3 rg.

Almost every nadal thread comes down to clay skew.

Raz also way more top 10 wins.

And time at #1

 

[nolefam_2024]

And time at #1

That is rubbish. Nadal had close to 10000 pts in 2005 probably. Raz had 7000 in 2022.

 

[Rosstour]

That is rubbish. Nadal had close to 10000 pts in 2005 probably. Raz had 7000 in 2022.

Doesn't matter. The tour is obviously much stronger now than then, once you get outside the top 2 guys.

 

[mike danny]

Nadal comprehensively defeated Agassi at that tournament who was thriving on those courts even at 35. Nobody at US22 is comparable.

Not really comprehensively. It went to a decider.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Doesn't matter. The tour is obviously much stronger now than then, once you get outside the top 2 guys.

So that's your insecurity to show you rafole fans are bad.

It's your issue. Resolve it and come back. Take a break from ttw.

 

[mike danny]

I'm gonna go with Nadal for now. What separates them is peak Fed.

 

[Mustard]

Not really comprehensively. It went to a decider.

Agassi was trying to speed Nadal up in the third set, even looking to the umpire. Nadal slowed it down further.

 

[TheGoldenEra1990’s]

Nadal hands down. Wayyyyy better on grass. About equal on hards and 1000000x better on clay

 

[Racquet_smash]

Not really comprehensively. It went to a decider.

I didn't say one sided.

 

[MaluTapiMau]

Nadal is the answer. He’s smarter too

 

[Vincent-C]

Nadal for peak.

On the other hand, Nadal for consistency.

Nicely played.

 

[clout]

Nadal. Better player in a better era.

I love Carlos but if you swapped young Rafa with Carlos and dropped Carlos into 2005-2007, I'm not sure which major Alcaraz could realistically win. 2022 Alcaraz would have to play 2005 Federer at RG and USO instead of Zverev and Ruud, 2023 Alcaraz would have to play 2006 Federer at RG/WI/USO instead of 36 year old Djokovic and Medvedev, and 2024 Alcaraz would have to play 2007 Federer at RG/WI instead of Zverev and 37 year old Djokovic.

I'm sure he'd put up an admirable fight since he almost always goes down swinging, but I just don't think it'll be enough at a major (he might be able to knock off Fed every once in a while at a 1000 event but I can't see him doing it at a major final/semifinal).

 

[clout]

I'm gonna go with Nadal for now. What separates them is peak Fed.

The factor of peak Fed always makes the Nadal/Alcaraz comparison an extra interesting one. Alcaraz simply hasn't had to come up against someone of that caliber in his career so far (with all due respect to Sinner/old Novak) and it's likely that Rafa even that young of an age would've added 2 Wimbledon's, 2 YEC's, 3 YEN1's, and a bunch of weeks at number 1 without peak Fed.

On the flip side, Carlos winning at least one major on every surface is very impressive. I don't think we've ever seen a 19-21 year old who is that versatile across every surface ever before.

 

[Vincent-C]

I love Carlos but if you swapped young Rafa with Carlos and dropped Carlos into 2005-2007, I'm not sure which major Alcaraz could realistically win. 2022 Alcaraz would have to play 2005 Federer at RG and USO instead of Zverev and Ruud, 2023 Alcaraz would have to play 2006 Federer at RG/WI/USO instead of 36 year old Djokovic and Medvedev, and 2024 Alcaraz would have to play 2007 Federer at RG/WI instead of Zverev and 37 year old Djokovic.

I'm sure he'd put up an admirable fight since he almost always goes down swinging, but I just don't think it'll be enough at a major (he might be able to knock off Fed every once in a while at a 1000 event but I can't see him doing it at a major final/semifinal).

tiny would have to get past the Murray-types first. Not bloody likely..

 

[Troicki’sCat]

22-24 Alcaraz, for me it’s not even close. More consistent across all surfaces, whereas Rafa was more of a clay court specialist, though he had pretty good success at Wimbledon after 06.

Post ‘07 Rafa is a different story. I think Carlos has the potential to be even better than Rafa, he’s unbelievably talented. But in my opinion, Rafa was more mentally tough, so maybe time will help Carlos grow into a mental giant

 

[nolefam_2024]

22-24 Alcaraz, for me it’s not even close. More consistent across all surfaces, whereas Rafa was more of a clay court specialist, though he had pretty good success at Wimbledon after 06.

Post ‘07 Rafa is a different story. I think Carlos has the potential to be even better than Rafa, he’s unbelievably talented. But in my opinion, Rafa was more mentally tough, so maybe time will help Carlos grow into a mental giant

Carlos is most likely far better than nadal. It's just his mental stuff which is an issue. Even his serve which is poor is not holding him far back.

 

[clout]

tiny would have to get past the Murray-types first. Not bloody likely..

Nah I think other than Fedal, Alcaraz is clearly miles better than everyone else from 2005-2007. He's already winning regularly against guys today who have a direct analogue to that era (Medvedev=Roddick, Zverev=Nalbandian/Safin, Rublev=Davydenko/Blake, Stefanos=Ferrero, Ruud=Coria, etc.)