2006 and 2015 similar level years, 2006 a little better IMO

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That's not radical that's probably the most popular opinion I hold. Vast majority of tennis fans would agree that Nadalovic faced tougher competition. Off this site that's not even something you have to argue it's just a given. Most still think Fed's the GOAT though. Probably won't anymore after the FO tho.
Vast majority of tennis fans just go by name over form so they're not the most trusting bunch. In their view, even 2019 AO Nadal is a tougher opponent than 2009 Wimb Roddick LOL.

After the last 5-6 years it's ridiculous to still say that Djokodal have had it tougher, but fanboys will be fanboys.
 
That's not radical that's probably the most popular opinion I hold. Vast majority of tennis fans would agree that Nadalovic faced tougher competition. Off this site that's not even something you have to argue it's just a given. Most still think Fed's the GOAT though. Probably won't anymore after the FO tho.

I dread the day when truth shall be henceforth decided by popular vote... whenever it isn't already anyway ha.
 
I totally agree I'm just saying calling me a radical when my view is the majority view is pretty insane
Well, the mistake is to assume that the majority view is always the right view. It's not.

Especially since most of this majority consists of casual fans who don't give a hoot about analysis and just go by name.
 
Well, the mistake is to assume that the majority view is always the right view. It's not.

Especially since most of this majority consists of casual fans who don't give a hoot about analysis and just go by name.
Again I agree. The majority view is Fed is GOAT so obviously majority is wrong sometimes ;). I'm just saying again calling me radical (pretty bold/demeaning claim) based on an opinion that's held by the majority. That's pretty much directly against the definition of what radical means.
 
Why would anyone genuinely apologize to someone on a tennis forum when they don't think they wronged that person? For timepass?
I told the truth. Whether you trust me on this or not, just stop badmouthing me based on assuming I'm lying. I'm not some scheming villain. I may be smart enough to be one, but I don't have the heart to be malicious.
LMAO.
 
Again I agree. The majority view is Fed is GOAT so obviously majority is wrong sometimes ;). I'm just saying again calling me radical (pretty bold/demeaning claim) based on an opinion that's held by the majority. That's pretty much directly against the definition of what radical means.
Fair enough.
 
Vast majority of tennis fans just go by name over form so they're not the most trusting bunch. In their view, even 2019 AO Nadal is a tougher opponent than 2009 Wimb Roddick LOL.

After the last 5-6 years it's ridiculous to still say that Djokodal have had it tougher, but fanboys will be fanboys.
Who said AO 19 Nadal is tougher than Wim 09 Roddick?
 
Consult a dictionary for the meaning of malicious. You will know the difference b/w malicious and being harsh towards BS.
Maybe that will make you stop laughing at something that isn't anywhere near funny.
I would engage in this, but I don't want to be the next one you curse in your native language LOL.
 
Losing is one thing, withdrawing is another. The idea that Nadal can be mentally feeble enough to withdraw from a premiere event just due to temporary burnout seems like a crazy putdown. Not only that but he's apparently weak enough to outright lie about an injury that wasn't there. If that's not hugely disrespectful I don't know what is.

its not just due to temporary burnout like I've stressed repeatedly. Needed a combination - temporary burnout and faced with a daunting draw. Wouldn't happen without either of them.
Lying about injury is just self-interest, not weakness.


It can hardly be coincidence that the three OE ATGs that burned out in their twenties were all active in a short timeframe between mid-70s and late 80s; that would be Borg, McEnroe, Wilander. Those times must have been more difficult to endure, so a comparison with another period wouldn't be proper. There were also Connors and Lendl as contemporaries who didn't burn out; both were hugely motivated by spite, so the ATP snubbing them only fueled their fire. However, both struggled with weakness in big matches at times, Lendl moreso. There hasn't been someone as rock solid as Borg in prime combined with Connors's longevity, Nadal though comes the closest (in OE that is; Gonzales may have been that, not enough data to tell). Adds to the scandalosity of accusing him of running way from a slam o.o

its still some mental weakness on the part of Borg. I do sympathize with his situation, but can't let Borg entirely off hook here.
Borg didn't need to have Connors' longevity obviously, but could have played till 84-85.


Better than being rigid. I end up adjusting my stance often, not always for the better perhaps.

you are mixing up 2 things. I'm talking about applying things in a consistent manner (in this case mental strength wrt to ATGs)
Not about sticking to one view or stubbornness. Which is a different topic.


Point was, it didn't contradict your general Fed bias to say that.

No, it doesn't even matter in this context. I was just thinking of how Djokovic played vs Cilic in that match.
If I say Djokovic played very well Tsonga in 4R of Wim 14 doesn't mean anything else.

When I didn't even think of comparing the respective QFs, bias doesn't even come into the picture.


Got busted easily so you can't establish that. This just opens an infinite can of worms as you can equate an easy loss to a mighty five-set struggle based on level of play just like that, and sure it would have to be true for some comparisons but the potential influence of bias is massive so who can be trusted to evaluate with that huge a differential?

fine, so disagree with the equating.
Gasquet hit 40 winners+errors forced vs 11 UEs in that Wim 06 1st round match
AM was 20.86%.
Was up vs Fed who wasn't SnVing or coming to the net excessively. Up vs Fed playing really well, including moving well..

So yeah, I'd say that's a pretty clear indicator Gasquet didn't play bad.


We'll see yet how wrong I was in fact.

its not the first time you've misread/misrepresented what I wrote. So ....
 
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And this thread remains.
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Disagree: 2006 I was in my prime and lived in France with a beautiful French gal. 2015 had already settled into “the grind” and life had become ordinary.
Avantage 2006
 
its not just due to temporary burnout like I've stressed repeatedly. Needed a combination - temporary burnout and faced with a daunting draw. Wouldn't happen without either of them.
Lying about injury is just self-interest, not weakness.

This is just going back and forth. You insist there was no injury at all and Nadal only withdrew because of mental weakness despite being the defending champion, then lied about it shamelessly to cover up his weakness. What a terrible picture. I don't see how you could have any respect for Nadal as a person (obviously his abilities as a player are undeniable) if you think that. What kind of guy would run away from a title defence because he can't pull himself together in time, then invent excuses for that? A pretty pathetic guy, no?


its still some mental weakness on the part of Borg. I do sympathize with his situation, but can't let Borg entirely off hook here.
Borg didn't need to have Connors' longevity obviously, but could have played till 84-85.

Borg's image as a pillar of mental strength is overrated if anything (not unlike Nadal's) since it lasted only less than three years, between losing matches like 1976 USO / 1977 YEC F to Connors and 1980 USO / 1981 WB F to McEnroe. High peak but quick burnout. Still would rank him mentally higher than Connors for sure, as the latter was resilient but his lesser clutch peak was exposed hard.

fine, so disagree with the equating.
Gasquet hit 40 winners+errors forced vs 11 UEs in that Wim 06 1st round match
AM was 20.86%.
Was up vs Fed who wasn't SnVing or coming to the net excessively. Up vs Fed playing really well, including moving well..

So yeah, I'd say that's a pretty clear indicator Gasquet didn't play bad.

Roddick hit 34 W+FE to 9 UE by some count in the third set of 2006 USO F alone. Must have been GOATing ha. I've said before how stats like this carry implicit bias in general to more directly attacking/forcing game modes, besides the subjective factor.

I'm not calling Gasquet bad but he was sure powerless. In Federer's own draw, only heavily declined Henman (+tired after five-set 1R) and Bjorkman (who was fortunate to make SF from a weak section and also spent after three five-setters) won fewer games. Comparing 1R to SF invites the obvious corollary that Djokovic's level can't hold a candle to Federer's (makes sense as we're talking about grass) so why even bother, the difference between their own levels as winners covers for everything else already. These matches are basically irrelevant anyway as far as competition goes, there was nothing exciting about the 2015 semi either as Djokovic cruised even not giving his peak best.



its not the first time you've misread/misrepresented what I wrote. So ....
[/QUOTE]
 
I don't know, just making a hyperbole to make my point that to them Djokovic beating Nadal automatically makes the win tougher than Federer just beating Roddick.
Problem is Roddick wasn’t tougher as much as Federer fans want. In your example he obviously was though.
 
This is just going back and forth. You insist there was no injury at all and Nadal only withdrew because of mental weakness despite being the defending champion, then lied about it shamelessly to cover up his weakness. What a terrible picture. I don't see how you could have any respect for Nadal as a person (obviously his abilities as a player are undeniable) if you think that. What kind of guy would run away from a title defence because he can't pull himself together in time, then invent excuses for that? A pretty pathetic guy, no?

You keep making it to one factor when I keep repeating its a combo of 2 factors. Its your problem.
I said it was a combo of still reeling from the loss+the tough draw. If he had an easier draw, he'd have the strength to just do enough in the early rounds and peak later.
I think its a sign of self-interest - the lying about injury part. I mean what else can they do if Nadal wasn't ready to go up vs that tough draw while reeling from the loss?
I don't Nadal is pathetic or anything like that. You using some words like terrible/pathetic etc. isn't going to change anything. I do think it was in part mental letdown just like gave examples for other ATGs (though not exactly analogous).

Borg's image as a pillar of mental strength is overrated if anything (not unlike Nadal's) since it lasted only less than three years, between losing matches like 1976 USO / 1977 YEC F to Connors and 1980 USO / 1981 WB F to McEnroe. High peak but quick burnout. Still would rank him mentally higher than Connors for sure, as the latter was resilient but his lesser clutch peak was exposed hard.

losing those matches you mentioned does not necessarily mean mental strength is over-rated.
He won many 5-setters in a row (broken by Mac in 1980 USO final I think)
My point remains that his burnout/retirement was atleast in part due to some mental weakness.


Roddick hit 34 W+FE to 9 UE by some count in the third set of 2006 USO F alone. Must have been GOATing ha. I've said before how stats like this carry implicit bias in general to more directly attacking/forcing game modes, besides the subjective factor.

I'm not calling Gasquet bad but he was sure powerless. In Federer's own draw, only heavily declined Henman (+tired after five-set 1R) and Bjorkman (who was fortunate to make SF from a weak section and also spent after three five-setters) won fewer games. Comparing 1R to SF invites the obvious corollary that Djokovic's level can't hold a candle to Federer's (makes sense as we're talking about grass) so why even bother, the difference between their own levels as winners covers for everything else already. These matches are basically irrelevant anyway as far as competition goes, there was nothing exciting about the 2015 semi either as Djokovic cruised even not giving his peak best.

So? Roddick wasn't playing bad in the USO 06 final. He was playing well in 2nd set and till whatever phase in the 3rd set you are talking. (didn't check the exact stats)
I said Gasquet wasn't playing bad in the Wim 06 1st round. Never said he was playing stellar.

There's a reason I gave the AM as well. If Gasquet was as powerless as you think, he wouldn't have that AM. Its not like he had some significantly extra power vs Djoko in Wim 15 SF compared to Wim 06 1st round anyways.

I don't think 2 matches matter too much as far as competition goes. But you are the one insisting on continuing on this track. So ...
 
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I didn’t know it was just based on picking right examples of Roddick being harder.
I meant picking the right examples to prove that GOAT X wasn't always tougher than lesser Y. Because many people go in with the view that beating Nadal = automatic tough win, while beating Roddick = easy win because he is a much worse player than Nadal.
 
I meant picking the right examples to prove that GOAT X wasn't always tougher than lesser Y. Because many people go in with the view that beating Nadal = automatic tough win, while beating Roddick = easy win because he is a much worse player than Nadal.
People know that Nadal wasn’t always harder to beat apart from some trolling.
 
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You keep making it to one factor when I keep repeating its a combo of 2 factors. Its your problem.
I said it was a combo of still reeling from the loss+the tough draw. If he had an easier draw, he'd have the strength to just do enough in the early rounds and peak later.
I think its a sign of self-interest - the lying about injury part. I mean what else can they do if Nadal wasn't ready to go up vs that tough draw while reeling from the loss?
I don't Nadal is pathetic or anything like that. You using some words like terrible/pathetic etc. isn't going to change anything. I do think it was in part mental letdown just like gave examples for other ATGs (though not exactly analogous).

I'm simply fleshing out what follows of your argument. Nadal shirking his moral duty of appearance as a defending champion because he "wasn't ready to go up vs that tough draw while reeling from the loss" is weak and reprehensible, no way around it regardless if you wouldn't admit.


So? Roddick wasn't playing bad in the USO 06 final. He was playing well in 2nd set and till whatever phase in the 3rd set you are talking. (didn't check the exact stats)
I said Gasquet wasn't playing bad in the Wim 06 1st round. Never said he was playing stellar.

There's a reason I gave the AM as well. If Gasquet was as powerless as you think, he wouldn't have that AM. Its not like he had some significantly extra power vs Djoko in Wim 15 SF compared to Wim 06 1st round anyways.

I don't think 2 matches matter too much as far as competition goes. But you are the one insisting on continuing on this track. So ...

A well-playing Federer makes stats look better both for himself and his opponent compared to a well-playing Nadal/Djokovic who extract more UEs and less FEs from their opponents at the same level.

Anyway, this really opens a vast opportunity for advantageous comparisons, e.g. 07 USO Roddick >= 13 AO Wawrinka & 06 USO Roddick >= 14 AO Wawrinka, opponent level is the difference :o
 
I'm simply fleshing out what follows of your argument. Nadal shirking his moral duty of appearance as a defending champion because he "wasn't ready to go up vs that tough draw while reeling from the loss" is weak and reprehensible, no way around it regardless if you wouldn't admit.

I already said it was mental letdown/weakness from Nadal's part. You are the one who is going around making it look like some ATGs are infallible mentally.

And yes, the excuses from Nadal camp are just self-interest and not good morally speaking.


A well-playing Federer makes stats look better both for himself and his opponent compared to a well-playing Nadal/Djokovic who extract more UEs and less FEs from their opponents at the same level.

But I only pointed out Wim 1R 2006 stats for Gasquet on its own. I didn't compare directly with stats of Wim 15 semi Gasquet. So what you said is not relevant here.

Anyway, this really opens a vast opportunity for advantageous comparisons, e.g. 07 USO Roddick >= 13 AO Wawrinka & 06 USO Roddick >= 14 AO Wawrinka, opponent level is the difference :eek:

No, it doesn't. Gasquet didn't win a single set vs Djoko in Wim 15 semi for starters.
 
Quora and Youtube tennis sections are terrible with these debates as well .
I think my comment was referring more to people outside of the internet landscape. Obviously those two are terrible. There's also MTF and r/tennis and maybe a few other tennis forums where this sort of discussion gets regurgitated a lot.
 
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