2011 (30 year old) Federer > 2011 (25 year old) Nadal

[jl809]

• 2011 Federer’s record vs the field (I.e. non-Djokodal): 62-5; win %: 92.5%

• 2011 Nadal’s record vs the field (I.e. non-Fedovic): 66-8; win %: 89.2%

• 2011 Federer vs 2011 Djokovic: beat Djokovic on clay at RG and had MPs against him at the US Open. Would very possibly have beaten him at Wimbledon, given how Djokovic struggled at the slams either side of this (and grass is Fed’s best surface)

• 2011 Nadal vs 2011 Djokovic: lost every match to Djokovic. Was blown out in the final set of the US Open and lost in 4. Was demolished at Wimbledon. Lost every match on clay.

If you had to pick one of 2011 Nadal and 2011 Federer to face a random player from the field in 2011, and you didn’t know which player you’d face, or the surface in question, you’d pick the person who gives you the highest probability of winning. That’s Federer.

So 2011 Federer > 2011 Nadal, no? QED

 

[abmk]

• 2011 Federer’s record vs the field (I.e. non-Djokodal): 62-5; win %: 92.5%

• 2011 Nadal’s record vs the field (I.e. non-Fedovic): 66-8; win %: 89.2%

• 2011 Federer vs 2011 Djokovic: beat Djokovic on clay at RG and had MPs against him at the US Open. Would very possibly have beaten him at Wimbledon, given how Djokovic struggled at the slams either side of this (and grass is Fed’s best surface)

• 2011 Nadal vs 2011 Djokovic: lost every match to Djokovic. Was blown out in the final set of the US Open and lost in 4. Was demolished at Wimbledon. Lost every match on clay.

If you had to pick one of 2011 Nadal and 2011 Federer to face a random player from the field in 2011, and you didn’t know which player you’d face, or the surface in question, you’d pick the person who gives you the highest probability of winning. That’s Federer.

So 2011 Federer > 2011 Nadal, no? QED

well fed was clearly better on HC in 2011, while nadal clearly better on clay.
grass, is eh, more difficult to judge. lets just say same ballpark.

 

[RS]

Nadal would have beaten Fed in both W and USO if Fed closed it out vs Djokovic and Tsonga like he should have

Djokovic also beats Fed in 4 in normal RG conditions and then Nadal beats Djokovic and breaks the mental duck earlier.

 

[RS]

Superb level from Fed in 11 though. ATG level yet he didn’t win a slam that year.


Sometimes you wonder how many tournaments Fed played that well and didn’t win.

 

[abmk]

Nadal would have beaten Fed in both W and USO if Fed closed it out vs Djokovic and Tsonga like he should have

Djokovic also beats Fed in 4 in normal RG conditions and then Nadal beats Djokovic and breaks the mental duck earlier.

nadal would've needed significant luck/mental letdown to beat fed at USO given the difference in forms (esp. serving). only the mental factor makes this close. else fed's form was clearly better.
Wim is again unpredictable.

if he needs 4 competitive sets in RG 11 and 4 tougher sets in AO 12, he likely loses 1 of the 2 (Wim 11/USO 11)

 

[RS]

nadal would've needed significant luck/mental letdown to beat fed at USO given the difference in forms (esp. serving). only the mental factor makes this close. else fed's form was clearly better.
Wim is again unpredictable.

if he needs 4 competitive sets in RG 11 and 4 tougher sets in AO 12, he likely loses 1 of the 2 (Wim 11/USO 11)

I make Nadal the slight favourite at both but sure you can give Fed one. Grass is a better chance IMO.

 

[Kralingen]

What it tells us about Djokovic’s 2011? Couldn’t even dominate 8th best Fed and 6th best Dal. Sad.

 

[jl809]

Nadal would have beaten Fed in both W and USO if Fed closed it out vs Djokovic and Tsonga like he should have

Djokovic also beats Fed in 4 in normal RG conditions and then Nadal beats Djokovic and breaks the mental duck earlier.

Even if 2011 Nadal could beat 2011 Federer, the H2H / matchup between the two themselves is somewhat irrelevant Thiem went 2-1 vs Djokovic in 2019, but that doesn’t mean 2019 Thiem was better than 2019 Djokovic.

Over the course of the year, against the entire cohort of ATP players, on all surfaces, 2011 Federer matched up better than 2011 Prime Nadal did

 

[StrongRule]

I agree, 2011 Federer was better than 2011 Nadal. Higher peak level for sure. One might say he deserved to win a slam more than Nadal that year, as he pretty much saved Nadal in RG 2011. But on the other hand, it's only his fault that after beating absolute peak Djokovic he failed to win against a very average version of Nadal.

 

[abmk]

I make Nadal the slight favourite at both but sure you can give Fed one. Grass is a better chance IMO.

I'd probably flip it. fed was playing better at USO than Wim. Nadal playing better at Wim than at USO.
But having said that, serve could be an equaliser for fed on grass.
Anyways fed's taking atleast 2 sets at USO given he nearly took 2 vs a clearly better Nadal on a clearly slower AO 12.

 

[Biotic]

Superb level from Fed in 11 though. ATG level yet he didn’t win a slam that year.


Sometimes you wonder how many tournaments Fed played that well and didn’t win.

Out of 10?

 

[Biotic]

What it tells us about Djokovic’s 2011? Couldn’t even dominate 8th best Fed and 6th best Dal. Sad.

10-1.

Meanwhile, 2007 Federer vs Claydal + Embryovic...

 

[RelentlessAttack]

• 2011 Federer’s record vs the field (I.e. non-Djokodal): 62-5; win %: 92.5%

• 2011 Nadal’s record vs the field (I.e. non-Fedovic): 66-8; win %: 89.2%

• 2011 Federer vs 2011 Djokovic: beat Djokovic on clay at RG and had MPs against him at the US Open. Would very possibly have beaten him at Wimbledon, given how Djokovic struggled at the slams either side of this (and grass is Fed’s best surface)

• 2011 Nadal vs 2011 Djokovic: lost every match to Djokovic. Was blown out in the final set of the US Open and lost in 4. Was demolished at Wimbledon. Lost every match on clay.

If you had to pick one of 2011 Nadal and 2011 Federer to face a random player from the field in 2011, and you didn’t know which player you’d face, or the surface in question, you’d pick the person who gives you the highest probability of winning. That’s Federer.

So 2011 Federer > 2011 Nadal, no? QED

This is only news to Djokovic fans who want to pretend that 2011 Nadal was as good as 2008/10/13 Nadal.

2011 Nadal opened the year with a muscle tear at the AO, served poorly for much of the year, wasn't firing on his FHDTL for much of the year, and keeping even more passive court position than usual.

 

[RS]

Even if 2011 Nadal could beat 2011 Federer, the H2H / matchup between the two themselves is somewhat irrelevant Thiem went 2-1 vs Djokovic in 2019, but that doesn’t mean 2019 Thiem was better than 2019 Djokovic.

Over the course of the year, against the entire cohort of ATP players, on all surfaces, 2011 Federer matched up better than 2011 Prime Nadal did

Just some context on the greatest player of his era

Djokovic did win 2 more slams than Thiem though.

 

[abmk]

I agree, 2011 Federer was better than 2011 Nadal. Higher peak level for sure. One might say he deserved to win a slam more than Nadal that year, as he pretty much saved Nadal in RG 2011. But on the other hand, it's only his fault that after beating absolute peak Djokovic he failed to win against a very average version of Nadal.

you under-rate Nadal's RG 2011 QF-F form here. While that RG is one of nadal's lower end of prime at RG, it was still pretty good.
nadal also beat fed on clay in Madrid 11. fed went out early in Monte Carlo and Rome.
So nadal was well and truly ahead on clay.

grass is a tossup. remember nadal's match vs delpo? likely better than any match fed played at at that Wim. and yes, fed's performance in loss to Tsonga was better than nadal's to djoko in the final.

HC, fed was clearly better for the year (AO, USO, post USO). though nadal was clearly better at Miami and about similar at IW. both sucked in Canada/Cincy 11 anyways.

 

[Tennfan123]

3 major finals (1 win) > 1, 0.
Case closed.
Merci

 

[StrongRule]

you under-rate Nadal's RG 2011 QF-F form here. While that RG is one of nadal's lower end of prime at RG, it was still pretty good.
nadal also beat fed on clay in Madrid 11. fed went out early in Monte Carlo and Rome.
So nadal was well and truly ahead on clay.

grass is a tossup. remember nadal's match vs delpo? likely better than any match fed played at at that Wim. and yes, fed's performance in loss to Tsonga was better than nadal's to djoko in the final.

HC, fed was clearly better for the year (AO, USO, post USO). though nadal was clearly better at Miami and about similar at IW. both sucked in Canada/Cincy 11 anyways.

Nadal was still vulnerable in the latter rounds of RG 2011. For example, in the second set of the final he got broken back twice, both times with some really terrible errors on break points. (you can easily find highlights of this match) Was lucky to win the first set, also lost the third from a break up. Similar things happened in the semifinal against Murray. But his opponents couldn't take advantage. IMO that was his worst RG winning level during his prime, and statements that some make about him beating Djokovic in a potential final are not based on anything. That was one RG he was lucky to win.

Outside of RG Federer was pretty bad on clay that year.

 

[abmk]

Nadal was still vulnerable in the latter rounds of RG 2011. For example, in the second set of the final he got broken back twice, both times with some really terrible errors on break points. (you can easily find highlights of this match) Was lucky to win the first set, also lost the third from a break up. Similar things happened in the semifinal against Murray. But his opponents couldn't take advantage. IMO that was his worst RG winning level during his prime, and statements that some make about him beating Djokovic in a potential final are not based on anything. That was one RG he was lucky to win.

Outside of RG Federer was pretty bad on clay that year.

1. I'd say RG 14 was worse (QF-F) and competition in RG 11 was clearly better. worse QF, worse final. yeah, semi in 14 was a little better vs an abysmal Murray, I guess.

Fed after choking away first set, did well to fight back in the 2nd and 3rd sets. nadal also raised his level after a slow start in 1st set. don't recall Nadal making that many terrible errors on BPs as you are making it out to be. Picking UFE on 3rd BP after 2 BPs have been saved is just StrongRuling.
a little vulnerable does not mean form wasn't very good.
Nadal still beat Sod in straights and Murray in straights (saving many BPs). Murray was atleast a little competent that year on clay (his best on clay before 2015).

2. fed also played some good tennis at Madrid in 11, though below par in Rome/Monte Carlo.

 

[StrongRule]

1. I'd say RG 14 was worse (QF-F) and competition in RG 11 was clearly better. worse QF, worse final. yeah, semi in 14 was a little better vs an abysmal Murray, I guess.

Fed after choking away first set, did well to fight back in the 2nd and 3rd sets. nadal also raised his level after a slow start in 1st set. don't recall Nadal making that many terrible errors on BPs as you are making it out to be. Picking UFE on 3rd BP after 2 BPs have been saved is just StrongRuling.
a little vulnerable does not mean form wasn't very good.
Nadal still beat Sod in straights and Murray in straights (saving many BPs). Murray was atleast a little competent that year on clay (his best on clay before 2015).

2. fed also played some good tennis at Madrid in 11, though below par in Rome/Monte Carlo.

RG 2014 was arguably worse, but I don't consider it part of Nadal's prime. His 2014 clay season was too bad compared to 2005-2013 to call it prime. Nadal's prime ended for me after AO 2014.

 

[The Guru]

Nadal would have beaten Fed in both W and USO if Fed closed it out vs Djokovic and Tsonga like he should have

Djokovic also beats Fed in 4 in normal RG conditions and then Nadal beats Djokovic and breaks the mental duck earlier.

Don't pick fights you don't want

 

[abmk]

RG 2014 was arguably worse, but I don't consider it part of Nadal's prime. His 2014 clay season was too bad compared to 2005-2013 to call it prime. Nadal's prime ended for me after AO 2014.

fair enough. Nadal's prime did end in AO 14 in general, but I'd still add RG 14 and 17 as prime level tourneys..
RG 11 is lowest from RG 05-13.

 

[Humphrey20133]

Federer deserved to win RG in 2011 simply for beating Novak and stopping the bleeding for a while. Nadal really played like garbage throughout that tournament. Getting taken to 5 sets in the first round against Isner on clay was simply embarrassing. If not for Roger playing his guts out, Rafa does not win the title against supercharged Djokovic.

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

35-36 year old Nadal>>>> 35-36 year old Fed.

No 2011 Fed cant handle 2011 Nadal either. LOL

 

[abmk]

35-36 year old Nadal>>>> 35-36 year old Fed.

in which land lol.
Fed AO 17 >> Nadal AO 22 (and obviously Fed AO 17 > Nadal AO 17)
Fed Wim 17 > Nadal RG 22
Fed USO 17 ~ Nadal Wim 22

Fed was also cleaning up IW, Miami in 17.
Nadal hasn't won a masters this year.

 

[Rosstour]

Superb level from Fed in 11 though. ATG level yet he didn’t win a slam that year.


Sometimes you wonder how many tournaments Fed played that well and didn’t win.

Most of them

lapses just got too numerous as his career wore on

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

in which land lol.
Fed AO 17 >> Nadal AO 22 (and obviously Fed AO 17 > Nadal AO 17)
Fed Wim 17 > Nadal RG 22
Fed USO 17 ~ Nadal Wim 22

Fed was also cleaning up IW, Miami in 17.
Nadal hasn't won a masters this year.

Nadal took down Djoker at RG this year. Fed didn't play anyone at Wimbledon in '17

 

[abmk]

Nadal took down Djoker at RG this year. Fed didn't play anyone at Wimbledon in '17

But fed did beat Nadal&Stan in AO 17 anyways.

and Fed didn't lose a set at Wim 17. He was better there than at AO 17, even though competition was clearly weaker. even with that weaker competition not losing a set to M.Zverev, Dimi, Raonic and Birdman combined is good stuff. On grass, he could've lost a set easily, especially vs M.Zverev SnVing in 1st week, 1st set vs Dimi, 3rd set vs Rao, 1st and 2nd TB sets vs Birdman.

Nadal was vulnerable vs FAA and Zverev at RG, though he did play well vs Djoker.

 

[RS]

Don't pick fights you don't want

Lining up this and a Djokovic without fall season injury scenario in your head?

 

[The Guru]

Lining up this and a Djokovic without fall season injury scenario in your head?

The idea of 11 Djokovic unbowed unbent unbroken. Pretty frickin cool idea.

 

[RS]

The idea of 11 Djokovic unbowed unbent unbroken. Pretty frickin cool idea.

Do you think it?

 

[Russeljones]

well fed was clearly better on HC in 2011, while nadal clearly better on clay.
grass, is eh, more difficult to judge. lets just say same ballpark.

I would say it is 40/60. I wouldn't trust 2011 Federer to beat the field at the AO and RG. That's too high a negative chance to stake my life on.

 

[RS]

Nadal beats Fed in 5 on grass then has more confidence for the USO after Fed deals with yet another loss and probably beats him again.

 

[aman92]

in which land lol.
Fed AO 17 >> Nadal AO 22 (and obviously Fed AO 17 > Nadal AO 17)
Fed Wim 17 > Nadal RG 22
Fed USO 17 ~ Nadal Wim 22

Fed was also cleaning up IW, Miami in 17.
Nadal hasn't won a masters this year.

22>20

 

[RS]

Out of 10?

AO 11 SF - 8 on the pre 2020 scale , 8.75 on the post 2019 scale
RG 11 SF - 9.25 on the pre 2020 scale , 10 on the post 2019 scale
RG 11 F - 8 on the pre 2020 scale , 8.75 on the post 2019 scale
USO 11 SF - 8.75 on the pre 2020 scale , 9.5 on the post 2019 scale
Wim 11 QF - 8.5 on the pre 2020 scale , 9.25 on the post 2019 scale
YEC 11 RR - 10 on the pre 2020 scale , 11 on the post 2019 scale
YEC 11 F - 8.5 on the pre 2020 scale , 9.25 on the post 2020 scale

 

[Biotic]

AO 11 SF - 8 on the pre 2020 scale , 8.75 on the post 2019 scale
RG 11 SF - 9.25 on the pre 2020 scale , 10 on the post 2019 scale
RG 11 F - 8 on the pre 2020 scale , 8.75 on the post 2019 scale
USO 11 SF - 8.75 on the pre 2020 scale , 9.5 on the post 2019 scale
Wim 11 QF - 8.5 on the pre 2020 scale , 9.25 on the post 2019 scale
YEC 11 RR - 10 on the pre 2020 scale , 11 on the post 2019 scale
YEC 11 F - 8.5 on the pre 2020 scale , 9.25 on the post 2020 scale

So, post 2019 scale is just pre 2019 scale - 0.75?

 

[abmk]

22>20

Irrelevant to what I said, but I see the insecurity is strong with you.

 

[RS]

22>20

2nd slam on hard tru clay rather to make it 2-2 in each players preferred surface

Nadal 29 slams
Federer 16 slams

 

[abmk]

I would say it is 40/60. I wouldn't trust 2011 Federer to beat the field at the AO and RG. That's too high a negative chance to stake my life on.

Not sure what you mean by 40/60.
Fed was the 2nd best player at AO (after DJoko) and 2nd best player at RG (after Nadal)

All I said was based on what happened in 11, fed was clearly better on HC vs the field, nadal on clay. grass is a tossup.

 

[abmk]

2nd slam on hard tru clay rather to make it 2-2 in each players preferred surface

Nadal 29 slams
Federer 16 slams

nah, USO moves to carpet to make 4th slam on 4th different surface
Nadal 19 slams (say he gets 1 slam in carpet)
Federer 22-23 slams

 

[RS]

nah, USO moves to carpet to make 4th slam on 4th different surface
Nadal 19 slams (say he gets 1 slam in carpet)
Federer 22-23 slams

No 2 slams favouring each player.

Or change the carpet for one of HC or grass slams.

 

[abmk]

No 2 slams favouring each player.

Or change the carpet for one of HC or grass slams.

if everything else except clay favors fed - slow HC, fast HC, carpet, grass, he's better no?

 

[InsideOut900]

Nadal was still vulnerable in the latter rounds of RG 2011.

1. I'd say RG 14 was worse (QF-F) and competition in RG 11 was clearly better. worse QF, worse final. yeah, semi in 14 was a little better vs an abysmal Murray, I guess.

This gets ommited every time, but are we forgetting that RG was played in Madrid-like conditions due to the lighter balls?

This totally favoured Fed against both Djoko and Nadal and would have favoured Djoko against Nadal had they played in the final.

Nadal "looking bad" resulted in a rough R1 against an Isner who took full advantage of the playing conditions and one loss of a set against Soderling and in-form Murray and Fed.

That doesn't put it below 2013/2014 at all. Perhaps true for 2006 as well.

 

[RS]

if everything else except clay favors fed - slow HC, fast HC, carpet, grass, he's better no?

Nah

 

[JaxTeller]

Lmao.. noway

 

[abmk]

Nah

 

[RS]

No man.

I admit we should have a grass master though and like another fast HC. Balance is key

Hard-Tru 2nd clay slam is pretty fair.

 

[RS]

USO was fast enough till mid 2010s and AO was speed up to make up for the slowing of USO and grass is perfect for Fed. He has had it plenty good with surfaces

 

[abmk]

This gets ommited every time, but are we forgetting that RG was played in Madrid-like conditions due to the lighter balls?

This totally favoured Fed against both Djoko and Nadal and would have favoured Djoko against Nadal had they played in the final.

Nadal "looking bad" resulted in a rough R1 against an Isner who took full advantage of the playing conditions and one loss of a set against Soderling and in-form Murray and Fed.

That doesn't put it below 2013/2014 at all. Perhaps true for 2006 as well.

The set3 vs Andujar was also hilariously bad followed by hilarious choke.

I'd say faster balls helped fed bridge the physical gap b/w him

I do rate 2011 above 2014. 13 a little above though not by much.
2006, I'd rate above 2011 for more reserves/better movement.

 

[RS]

This gets ommited every time, but are we forgetting that RG was played in Madrid-like conditions due to the lighter balls?

This totally favoured Fed against both Djoko and Nadal and would have favoured Djoko against Nadal had they played in the final.

Nadal "looking bad" resulted in a rough R1 against an Isner who took full advantage of the playing conditions and one loss of a set against Soderling and in-form Murray and Fed.

That doesn't put it below 2013/2014 at all. Perhaps true for 2006 as well.

Nadal played worse in the RG 06 F and RG 11/13/14 F anyway. Fed missed his chances to take advantage of this.

 

[NatF]

No 2 slams favouring each player.

Or change the carpet for one of HC or grass slams.

Nadal having less favoured conditions is precisely why he's a worse player.