2011 Clay court season: Thoughtful discussion

aceX

aceX

Hall of Fame
I know buckethead already made a clay season thread, but I disliked the fact that it's all about whether or not Nadal will win everything again.

Let's keep the discussion thoughtful. ****s need not post here.

Alright so April of course means the start of the clay court season. There are several interesting storylines unfolding this clay court season:

Djokovic currently has not lost a singles match this year. Many are predicting an end to this streak during the clay court season (if not sooner). From what I understand the height of the clay court bounce is similar to that of the slower hard courts (AO, IW, Miami). It seems to me that Djokovic might be able to quickly adapt his current red hot play to the clay and continue his streak. I wouldn't be surprised to see Djokovic reach the Monte Carlo final.

Nadal achieved the clay court sweep last year. Interestingly Nadal is actually looking in better form than the start of the clay court season last year! Could this be a bad thing since last year he felt the need to make monte carlo his 'return-to-form' tournament whereas currently his level is so high that he may not see the need to focus on monte carlo as much as he seemed to last year.

Federer seems to be playing low % tennis. He's coming to the net more and going for his shots. I hope to see Federer fully commit to trying to regain his Roland Garros title. The change to clay and its corresponding focus on consistency will require Roger to get rid of his low % play - at least temporarily. I actually think he will increase his Wimbledon title chances if reaches good form while focusing on high % tennis.

Ferrer has had a good start to the year. Beat Nadal in the AO QF - I know Nadal was injured but Ferrer was playing very well in that match. Reached the semifinal, losing to Murray in 4 while Murray was playing good agressive tennis - unlike how he played in the final. Ferrer's best results seem to come on clay. Reached the Rome final last year, losing to Nadal. Ferrer won Acapulco, Mexico ATP World Tour 500 (on clay) in Feb of this year so you can bet that Ferrer is looking forward to more clay tournaments.

Murray says he actually likes clay although he doesn't have the same results there as he does on hard court. He is currently on a losing streak at the moment. This is almost a carbon copy of last year - losing in the AO final and really losing fire at IW and Miami. It seems like his counterpunching style should suit the clay - can someone tell me why he doesn't do well on clay?

Last year Verdasco reached the Monte Carlo final (losing it 6-0, 6-1 to Nadal - oops!) and won Barcelona (beating soderling in the final). Lost to Berdych at AO this year, Lost to Raonic in the final of San Jose and then in the first round (!!!) of Memphis. Lost to Bellucci in the first round of Mexico clay 500 during Feb. Lost to Querrey at IW and P Andújar at his first match of Miami. So he doesn't seem to be in top 10 form currently but he claimed last year he was a top 5 clay player so we'll just have to see how he goes.

Juan Martin del Potro - the man himself is back. Won delray beach, semis at Indian wells, lost to Fish at Miami (Fish is in good form). I expect him to go deep in a couple of clay tournaments and take out some big names. One to watch for sure.

Soderling - Two french open finals, beating the defending champion on his way to both finals. Not a fan-favourite but definitely a force on clay. He doesn't seem to be in his best form at the moment, though. Saying that he did reach the fourth round of the Australian Open (his best run at that tournament) losing to a hot Dolgopolov. If he's in good form he'll have a chance to win any clay tournament he enters - even the French.

Almagro has the game to go deep, but seems to lack the mental tools to stay in control. Mexico clay 500 finalist this year.
 
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aceX said:
Murray It seems like his counterpunching style should suit the clay - can someone tell me why he doesn't do well on clay?
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He really doesn't have the proper tools to be a top player on clay. He and Hewitt have the same issues - while they are really tenacious and their fitness is remarkable, they can't generate enough power consistently to hit through their opponents. Hitting in the middle of the court hoping to outgrind your opponent isn't exactly going to work since the other player is quite comfortable hitting sitters with the long preparation time on clay.
Take Rafa, he's a master at scrabling for balls, but his true weapong is his forehand. It's so extremely heavy that even while he's on the defence his opponents have a hard time dealing with it.
 
So what exactly are you asking?? You just seem to summise all the current hot players form up to date and their general clay court skills?
 
FlamEnemY said:
He really doesn't have the proper tools to be a top player on clay. He and Hewitt have the same issues - while they are really tenacious and their fitness is remarkable, they can't generate enough power consistently to hit through their opponents. Hitting in the middle of the court hoping to outgrind your opponent isn't exactly going to work since the other player is quite comfortable hitting sitters with the long preparation time on clay.
Take Rafa, he's a master at scrabling for balls, but his true weapong is his forehand. It's so extremely heavy that even while he's on the defence his opponents have a hard time dealing with it.
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True, if you want to be good on clay, you need a true weapong
 
FlamEnemY said:
He really doesn't have the proper tools to be a top player on clay. He and Hewitt have the same issues - while they are really tenacious and their fitness is remarkable, they can't generate enough power consistently to hit through their opponents. Hitting in the middle of the court hoping to outgrind your opponent isn't exactly going to work since the other player is quite comfortable hitting sitters with the long preparation time on clay.
Take Rafa, he's a master at scrabling for balls, but his true weapong is his forehand. It's so extremely heavy that even while he's on the defence his opponents have a hard time dealing with it.
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But doesn't Murray generate more pace than someone like Ferrer who does well on clay? Well I suppose Murray has a FO QF and Ferrer has two FO QFs so he's not that much better.
 
aceX said:
Ferrer's best results seem to come on clay.
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Sigh. I guess the Spaniard=Clay label still sticks strong.

Ferrer's all-time best results against a full field of top players are USO and AO SF and WTF final. He also won a grass 250. His game translates better to HC than to clay.
 
aceX said:
But doesn't Murray generate more pace than someone like Ferrer who does well on clay? Well I suppose Murray has a FO QF and Ferrer has two FO QFs so he's not that much better.
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Ferrer's footwork on clay is better imho.
 
aceX said:
Murray - can someone tell me why he doesn't do well on clay?
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That's one of the great mysteries of today's tennis. The guy has one of the best topspin forehands (yup, forehand), good droppers, great variety, great foot speed...

You could blame his lack of endurance at the beginning of his career, but he has improved on that. I have no clue why he doesn't reach semis/quarters consistently, he has on paper all the weapons to be one of the top 5 claycourters on this era but his results are nowhere near that. :confused:
 
aceX said:
Murray says he actually likes clay although he doesn't have the same results there as he does on hard court. He is currently on a losing streak at the moment. This is almost a carbon copy of last year - losing in the AO final and really losing fire at IW and Miami. It seems like his counterpunching style should suit the clay - can someone tell me why he doesn't do well on clay?
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IMO, the reason remains the same for Murray: in the end he sticks to counterpunching alone, he doesn't go for more. No need to talk about Nadal; look at Soderling, or (an in form) Verdasco, even Almagro -- it still takes a good bit of aggressive play alongside counterpuching to get good results.

Watching him last year made me think that he's perhaps even more keen to play passive on clay, since the surface actually allows him... But it still backfires on him.
 
Maybe one of the young(er) guns will enjoy some success during the coming clay court season. Grigor Dimitrov has had a good bit of success at challenger level in recent months and won the Wimbledon and US Open junior titles a few years ago, but I'm not sure how well he plays on clay. However, coming from Bulgaria, it's a surface he'll certainly be familiar with.
 
More like 1.,5.,2.,3.,4. & Delpo somewhere after 1&5

Lsmkenpo said:
Current Clay Court Power Rankings

1.Nadal
2.Soderling
3.Federer
4.Ferrer
5.Djokovic
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Your rankings are obviously based heavily on 2010 Euro clay results. ND moves up due to redeveloped serve and the confidence factor surrounding 2011 results. Soderling is rock and has met his paper, Delpo, who simply outhits the big-hitter. Fed or Ferrer could be the scissors to cut paper. If ND wins Miami tomorrow, he will blow up in Europe and make it 1 & 1A. Delpo, Fed, Sod and Ferrer will be closer to each other than any of them to the top 2.
 
stringertom said:
Your rankings are obviously based heavily on 2010 Euro clay results. ND moves up due to redeveloped serve and the confidence factor surrounding 2011 results. Soderling is rock and has met his paper, Delpo, who simply outhits the big-hitter. Fed or Ferrer could be the scissors to cut paper. If ND wins Miami tomorrow, he will blow up in Europe and make it 1 & 1A. Delpo, Fed, Sod and Ferrer will be closer to each other than any of them to the top 2.
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No, wrong on so many points, Djokovics slow HC results don't mean much coming to clay, kind of like saying Sampras would be better on clay after winning Wimbledon because his confidence was higher.

Secondly Soderling has the best high forehand on tour better than Del Potro's on clay, Del Potro doesn't move as well on clay either, it requires more controlled quicker, shorter, steps not Del Potro's strong point. You can throw Del Potro out he is barely in the top 10 on clay unless he significantly improves his footwork. Monfils, Verdasco and Murray are all better on clay than Del Potro.

You seem to have trouble differentiating how players matchup on surfaces and their strengths and weaknesses. What happened on the slow HC this season doesn't matter at all come clay season, its a different game. Miami's results have zero impact on anything that will happens on the clay, other than the seeding going into the season.
 
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I think Monfils should be included, he is in the top 10 now and stands to gain a lot of points from the clay season, considering how badly he did here last year. We know the guy is an absolute monster when he is playing well too.
 
OK, Nostradamus!

Tennis is a game played on a court 8 inches wide. You totally discount the impact on the confidence level of the competition that ND's run has had. You discount the fact he competed last year with a women's-tour-level serve that now is a weapon instead of a way to start the point. You totally discount the fact that all the surfaces are starting to resemble each other more in terms of speed and bounce height. You negate ND's second-only-to-Nadal's court coverage and willingness to fight for every shot, extend every point one stroke longer. You must be watching a different game than I am. As I said, no one in the locker room has the mental confidence to walk out and start a match 0-0 against either Nadal or Djokovic. They are 1 and 1A. As to Delpo, he is much further along his recovery than the biggest optimist could have ever expected. I seem to remember he pushed Fed to 5 in the '09 FO. Did he do that on ice skates? Have his clay skills regressed? Had he beaten Fed, are you so confident Sod would have beaten him in a final. Tell us o holy Nostradamus. I wait expectantly to be enlightened on the "oh so many ways" I'm wrong, you pompous a**! If we mere mortals play on a court 8 inches wide, you must play on one 80 inches wide to accomodate your big head.
 
stringertom said:
Tennis is a game played on a court 8 inches wide. You totally discount the impact on the confidence level of the competition that ND's run has had. You discount the fact he competed last year with a women's-tour-level serve that now is a weapon instead of a way to start the point. You totally discount the fact that all the surfaces are starting to resemble each other more in terms of speed and bounce height. You negate ND's second-only-to-Nadal's court coverage and willingness to fight for every shot, extend every point one stroke longer. You must be watching a different game than I am. As I said, no one in the locker room has the mental confidence to walk out and start a match 0-0 against either Nadal or Djokovic. They are 1 and 1A. As to Delpo, he is much further along his recovery than the biggest optimist could have ever expected. I seem to remember he pushed Fed to 5 in the '09 FO. Did he do that on ice skates? Have his clay skills regressed? Had he beaten Fed, are you so confident Sod would have beaten him in a final. Tell us o holy Nostradamus. I wait expectantly to be enlightened on the "oh so many ways" I'm wrong, you pompous a**! If we mere mortals play on a court 8 inches wide, you must play on one 80 inches wide to accomodate your big head.
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Movement on clay is completely different than movement on HC, have you ever played on clay in your life, somehow i doubt it. Federer and Nadal are the two best movers on clay by quite a margin, Djokovic moves better on HC same as Murray, neither have the quick controlled short footwork of Nadal or Federer, quit being ignorant winning on slow HC doesn't mean a damn thing for clay, 75% of Djokovic's title have come on slow HC, he hasn't done much on clay or grass over his career.

Moving on to Soderling, let me get this straight, in your mind Del Potro taking Federer to 5 sets is a greater accomplishment than Soderling beating both Federer and Nadal on clay. LMFAO

Del Potro beat Soderling coming off an ankle injury where he didn't play for 2 weeks and a virus that kept him bed ridden for 5 days, and suddenly he is better than Soderling on clay. again LMAO

You sure are full of knee jerk reactions aren't you, use some commonsense.
 
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Lsmkenpo said:
According to results and skill on clay, what metrics would you consider as an alternative? The results from the HC season? Nah.
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Nadal: RG: W, MC: W, R: W, M:W (2000+1000+1000+1000=5000)
Soderling: RG: F, MC: -, R: R16, M: R32 (1200+90+10=1300)
Federer: RG: Q, MC: -, R: R32, M: F (360+10+600=970)
Ferrer: RG: R32, MC: S, R: F, M: S (90+360+360+600=1410)
Djokovic: RG: Q, MC: S, R: Q, M: - (360+360+180 = 900)

OK, I know by now we are numbed down to what Nadal is doing, but that level of sustained dominance of a surface is pathological. Probably not good for clay court tennis, when all the interest in the result is who is going to be trounced by him in the finals, or if he is going to have an exceptionally bad day for whatever reason and lose the odd match.

Ferrer had an exceptionally (probably one-in-the-life) good clay season last year because most of the top guys were in shambles, but before that he had never been a regular semifinalist in important clay tournaments (RG and masters), people only cite him as a top clay courter because he happened to be born in Spain, I'd say he barely makes top 10 in normal circumstances.
 
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cucio said:
Sigh. I guess the Spaniard=Clay label still sticks strong.

Ferrer's all-time best results against a full field of top players are USO and AO SF and WTF final. He also won a grass 250. His game translates better to HC than to clay.
Click to expand...

I was more thinking that he's one of the smaller guys on tour and has a grinder's game - no big weapons to speak of - running around the baseline like a spooked rabbit. But you are right he's arguably a better HC player than a CC player.
 
miyagi said:
Right! So you just want people to talk endlessly about the different possibilities that the clay court season can bring?

Hmmmmmm........:confused:
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Well this is a forum. That pretty much equals endless talk.

The quality of that endless talk is usually very low, especially in General Pro Player Discussion.

I will be surprised if people can manage endless talk while maintaining quality. So I don't want you to talk endlessly, I want you to discuss thoughtfully. :)
 
Lsmkenpo said:
Movement on clay is completely different than movement on HC, have you ever played on clay in your life, somehow i doubt it. Federer and Nadal are the two best movers on clay by quite a margin, Djokovic moves better on HC same as Murray, neither have the quick controlled short footwork of Nadal or Federer, quit being ignorant winning on slow HC doesn't mean a damn thing for clay, 75% of Djokovic's title have come on slow HC, he hasn't done much on clay or grass over his career.

Moving on to Soderling, let me get this straight, in your mind Del Potro taking Federer to 5 sets is a greater accomplishment than Soderling beating both Federer and Nadal on clay. LMFAO

Del Potro beat Soderling coming off an ankle injury where he didn't play for 2 weeks and a virus that kept him bed ridden for 5 days, and suddenly he is better than Soderling on clay. again LMAO

You sure are full of knee jerk reactions aren't you, use some commonsense.
Click to expand...

Grass: Two Wimbledon semifinals. Grass specialist Tim Henman managed four Wimbledon semifinals. But Djokovic hasn't done anything on grass?

Clay: A Rome Masters title, two other clay masters finals. Two french open semis (both against Nadal). In Madrid 2009 it took Nadal 3 tight sets and four hours of play to beat Djokovic. Djokovic is currently playing better than he was in 2009.
 
Time to Deflate Your Fat Head & Leave Room 4 the Rest of Us!

Hey L: agree to disagree with me but come down off your holier-than-thou pedestal you preach from, you pompous fruitcake! Yes, I live in Cen. FL and play on both HC and Har-Tru. You are refuted there. I recognize movement (i.e. court coverage) is critical no matter what surface; Nadal's technique has been tops on clay for years, hence his near invincibility Have I gone wrong yet, blowhard? ND trails in that category but only by a small bit if any on HC plus his slides while on defense are incredibly hard to pull off on HC and a bit easier to do on the brick. You will see a vast improvement this year. If you haven't noticed it already you are blind and if you don't see that translating to clay you lack imagination, not surprising with the limited space left in your brain due to your oversized ego.
Scoreboard says it all, L: no one is beating the Serbian on a mission. As I said, if he wins tomorrow in Miami, he will enter the Euro clay season with so much confidence it makes up for the few "technical" weakpoints inherent in his game. It's not a level playing field unless Nadal or Fed are across the net. Give Delpo the Euro clay season and he becomes a player in the mix. Oh, I know you're gagging on that in defense of your superhero Swede, but don't use injury as an excuse. The players don't. Delpo routined him after playing tons of HC tennis this winter. I'm sure he's not exactly 100% physically either. As to Delpo's accomplishments on clay: titles in Stuggart and Kitzbuehl and the '09 FO semis. Plus he closes in major finals, unlike your Sod. He's only one loss away in finals from changing nationalities to Scottish. Murray and Sod could get together and compare straight-set Finals horror stories. Like I said, L, scoreboard says it all! How's that for kneeing your ego where it hurts you jerk.
 
aceX said:
But doesn't Murray generate more pace than someone like Ferrer who does well on clay? Well I suppose Murray has a FO QF and Ferrer has two FO QFs so he's not that much better.
Click to expand...

yes but murray (like hewitt back then) generates pace by taking balls early and swinging flat through the ball. On a HC he generates a lot of pace in this way because he redirects and amplyfies the opponents power.

On clay that doesn't work since the bonce is slower and steeper upwards and you have to accelerate the balls yourself. that is not so much murrays game. If he gets no pace from the opponent his flat strokes are too tame to pressure his opponent.
 
aceX said:
Grass: Two Wimbledon semifinals. Grass specialist Tim Henman managed four Wimbledon semifinals. But Djokovic hasn't done anything on grass?

Clay: A Rome Masters title, two other clay masters finals. Two french open semis (both against Nadal). In Madrid 2009 it took Nadal 3 tight sets and four hours of play to beat Djokovic. Djokovic is currently playing better than he was in 2009.
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but henman reached a FO final:D.

but I agree nole is better than ever and will be one of the best in the summer too.

sod and DP are certainly also guys to watch. they are the 2 hardest hitters on the tour and DP is in a great form (sod not so much). if it's really dry and hot they will be very dangerous at the FO which are very fast in dry conditions.
 
Sorry to be a pain but it's hard to look past Nadal on clay. Everyone else is simply trying to keep in touch with him.

The truth will be revealed in the next 6 to 8 weeks - if the unimaginable happens and Rafa gets injured, loses motivation or any other situation arises in which Rafa loses, i think Del Potro may emerge as the next in line after Djockovic with RF also in there with a shout.

Everyone else - no chance

Vamos Rafa
 
dominikk1985 said:
but henman reached a FO final:D.

but I agree nole is better than ever and will be one of the best in the summer too.

sod and DP are certainly also guys to watch. they are the 2 hardest hitters on the tour and DP is in a great form (sod not so much). if it's really dry and hot they will be very dangerous at the FO which are very fast in dry conditions.
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No he didn't.
 
stringertom said:
Hey L: agree to disagree with me but come down off your holier-than-thou pedestal you preach from, you pompous fruitcake! Yes, I live in Cen. FL and play on both HC and Har-Tru. You are refuted there. I recognize movement (i.e. court coverage) is critical no matter what surface; Nadal's technique has been tops on clay for years, hence his near invincibility Have I gone wrong yet, blowhard? ND trails in that category but only by a small bit if any on HC plus his slides while on defense are incredibly hard to pull off on HC and a bit easier to do on the brick. You will see a vast improvement this year. If you haven't noticed it already you are blind and if you don't see that translating to clay you lack imagination, not surprising with the limited space left in your brain due to your oversized ego.
Scoreboard says it all, L: no one is beating the Serbian on a mission. As I said, if he wins tomorrow in Miami, he will enter the Euro clay season with so much confidence it makes up for the few "technical" weakpoints inherent in his game. It's not a level playing field unless Nadal or Fed are across the net. Give Delpo the Euro clay season and he becomes a player in the mix. Oh, I know you're gagging on that in defense of your superhero Swede, but don't use injury as an excuse. The players don't. Delpo routined him after playing tons of HC tennis this winter. I'm sure he's not exactly 100% physically either. As to Delpo's accomplishments on clay: titles in Stuggart and Kitzbuehl and the '09 FO semis. Plus he closes in major finals, unlike your Sod. He's only one loss away in finals from changing nationalities to Scottish. Murray and Sod could get together and compare straight-set Finals horror stories. Like I said, L, scoreboard says it all! How's that for kneeing your ego where it hurts you jerk.
Click to expand...

First of all, allow me to train you on how to respond to a specific post. See that little button in the lower right hand corner of someones post, that is the quote button, you can click on that to quote me and respond.

Secondly as you complete one of your ramblings, try pushing the enter button to put some space between your paragraphs, it will match the space between your ears and be much easier for everyone else to read your post, everyone should enjoy a little comic relief on occasion, this will make it easier for them to enjoy.

On to the matter at hand, if you chose to believe Nole and Del Potro are the claycourt favorites based on their HC results go right on believing. I don't want to ruin your beliefs with the truth at this time. I will leave you this though, Santa Claus and The Easter Bunny are not real either.
 
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Might not be written in stone, but I just get this feeling that Fed will have an exceptionally good clay court season this year. No particular reason for this, but it would do him some good to improve his baseline skills a bit more, since coming to the net on clay regularly is like committing suicide. It'll force him to rally a longer, his consistency should improve with this.

Some people seriously underestimate Federer's clay court abilities. He has beaten Nadal on clay before, although that was quite some time ago. Hope he does well, it should help him up his ranking points, and improve his overall playing, hope he wins at least on clay masters and go deep in RG.

Very wishful thinking.
 
AhmedD said:
Might not be written in stone, but I just get this feeling that Fed will have an exceptionally good clay court season this year. No particular reason for this, but it would do him some good to improve his baseline skills a bit more, since coming to the net on clay regularly is like committing suicide. It'll force him to rally a longer, his consistency should improve with this.

Some people seriously underestimate Federer's clay court abilities. He has beaten Nadal on clay before, although that was quite some time ago. Hope he does well, it should help him up his ranking points, and improve his overall playing, hope he wins at least on clay masters and go deep in RG.

Very wishful thinking.
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Yup pretty much what I said.
 
Watch out for Dolgopolov, Ferrer, Davydenko, Soderling, Raonic, Del Potro, Almagro, Wawrinka, these guys will have a good clay season and challenge Nadal.
I think Djokovic will have his first win against Rafa on clay.
Roger will make all semis in all tournaments he plays and he'll keep the streak going.
 
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Question:

Why is it that Soderling made the French Open Finals in 2009 and 2010, but didn't get past the 3rd round in any of the clay masters those years?
 
dominikk1985 said:
yes but murray (like hewitt back then) generates pace by taking balls early and swinging flat through the ball. On a HC he generates a lot of pace in this way because he redirects and amplyfies the opponents power.
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Since when does Murray take the ball early? He is often criticized for letting himslf be pushed back behind the baseline. Similarly while his backhand may be flat, his forehand tends to be loopy.
 
RyanRF said:
Question:

Why is it that Soderling made the French Open Finals in 2009 and 2010, but didn't get past the 3rd round in any of the clay masters those years?
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Confusion that remains in most of our heads. He is a talented player but I feel as if his results in France are him overachieving a bit.
 
There you go again, L!

Hey L: there's a reason your posting name starts with an "L": it stands for lecturer. Stop talking down in your posts! I don't lecture you, I point out holes in your arguments. Apparently they hurt because you are now resorting to tactics of debate losers: changing the subject and twisting words. My first response to you never claimed Djokovic or Delpo to be the masters of clay 2011. I merely elevated ND from your fifth to second and put Delpo somewhere in the mix. I like ND enough due to his mental edge to be closer to Nadal than the others are to the two of them, hence 1 & 1A. Agree to disagree, but stop lecturing like a college professor to an incoming freshman. Leave some room for the rest of us and deflate your massive ego!
 
RyanRF said:
Question:

Why is it that Soderling made the French Open Finals in 2009 and 2010, but didn't get past the 3rd round in any of the clay masters those years?
Click to expand...

He was injured for 2 months prior to the clay season in 2009 he hadn't won 2 matches in a row at any tournament that year before clay season. His first tournament back was Rome where he drew Nadal third round, not the guy you want to play on clay returning from an injury. Than at Madrid he drew Federer third round, I heard this guy is a pretty good player also.

2010 clay season again injured, he hurt his knee at Monte Carlo and had to withdraw from the tournament. He lost to Almagro and Wawrinka third round at the next 2 master both top 10 players on clay. He didn't recover completely till Barcelona where he made the final.

Lastly, Roland Garros clay suits his game well, it is faster and they use a lighter ball, which allows him to step in and hit through the court.
 
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