2012: Bad Year for Nadal

DjokovicForTheWin said:
It's clear he's playing 100%. Only a troll would say he's not. He had great movement and had a ton of sting on his shots throughout the year that allowed him to make a record number of finals.
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No it's not clear at all. It's your word against mine and since you flood the boards with your posts that's most of what one sees around here.

Nadal for anyone who has watched him closely lost a bit last year for a variety of reasons and in a variety of ways. It wasn't just confidence. The serve, backhand and movement etc don't simply depend on losses to Novak.

The same can be said for Federer. Those 2 relative "declines" along with Djokovic's great play combine to tell the story.

Your little Djokovic fairy tale is tendentious at best.
 
intrepidish said:
No it's not clear at all. It's your word against mine and since you flood the boards with your posts that's most of what one sees around here.

Nadal for anyone who has watched him closely lost a bit last year for a variety of reasons and in a variety of ways. It wasn't just confidence. The serve, backhand and movement etc don't simply depend on losses to Novak.

The same can be said for Federer. Those 2 relative "declines" along with Djokovic's great play combine to tell the story.

Your little Djokovic fairy tale is tendentious at best.
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Finally, the **** gets a clue.
 
hoodjem said:
I have this hunch that 2012 will be a rather bad year for Nadal.

It seems like with all those losses to Djokovic last year, his spirit is broken. Nadal's will to win has been severely diminished. He seems much more vulnerable than previously.

I even suspect that he will not win the FO--he seems that much of a "lesser player."
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It looks like that, but I think it's an illusion.
 
namelessone said:
Mental strength that would drop in anyone who has lost 6 finals, 4 in MS, 2 in GS against one guy in one season. Nadal is not a robot. I know some like to portray his mental strength as being in neverending supply but that scenario is only true in delusional minds.

Roddick has zero expectations when he meets Fed. He fights so he won't lose too badly against Roger because he is horribly matched with him, only won once in 20 matches or so. Fed dominates him badly even when Andy is fighting for dear life on court, imagine how it would be if he didn' fight
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Agree.

I don't think however that Rafa has declined. At least I am going to wait and see how he does before getting to that conclusion... I think he has done some things better before, but not sure we can say from that that he's declined.

Tcbtennis said:
I am at this very moment watching the rebroadcast of Nadal and Djokovic's very first final of 2011 at Indian Wells. Nadal has won the first set and is on serve in the 2nd. His movement is top notch, his foot speed is phenomenal and he has depth of his groundstrokes, including his backhand which he is hitting flatter. As we all know Djokovic wins this match and he wins against an in form, high level Nadal. The small subset of Nadal fanatics who think that he played poorly are deluded!

Turn on Tennis Channel now and keep your blinders off!
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Isn't it just after that that his first serve disappeared (at least I think it was then)?.
 
zagor said:
If I look at a different standards both of them set your theory is even more full of holes. Comparison adjusted for their respective standards of domination Fed's 2008 was a large drop off in form while 2011 was sort of astandard year for Nadal.

Talking about best surfaces, Fed entered USO that year without a single HC final let alone a title while Nadal reached final in every CC tourney he played this year.


Yeah and most pundits agreed Fed wasn't as good as in 2008 as he was in 2007 let alone 2006. Courier and Cahill repeteadly made excuses regarding Fed's mono and how it screwed up his whole year etc.
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namelessone said:
2008 Fed had a LARGE dropoff only in non-slams. While he was sick he made SF in AO, then eh made F in RG, F in WB and W in USO. Then his next results for the slams were F,W,W,F,W. Granted, it's not W-F-W-W like he normally does but it's damn close. If Roger wins the fifth with Nadal and Delpo, he basically makes 5 in a row(assuming that the same results would hold.


True. I was saying it from my POV as you are doing from yours. As I was joking, my subjectivity is better than your subjectivity.




LOL. This was a slam back in 2009, Fed didn't decline there. And we all know Fed lost that final because of a bad back anyway.





Sure I can, it's a forum. Nadal's perfomance sucked this year IMO overall and without Fed it would have been his first slamless year since 2004. Fed fans are free to say the whatever they want about his 2008 as well. We don't need consensus, it's a back and forth.



I said it, if Nadal plays better this year and wins a slam convincingly, with or without Djoko around I'll admit I was wrong about his 2011.



I accept the major decline theory for Roger when it comes to non-slams since 2008. I can't accept that in the 2008-mid 2010 Roger declined in a big way in slams, in fact the guy was saving himself up for them.




Hey what do you expect, Nadal played one of his worst matches of the year there, only worse one was the one with Verdasco. He did literally nothing in that match to prevent defeat. A very uncharacteristic meh attitude. But these kind of Nadal matches don't phase me anymore, I've gotten used to the pattern.




Being pushed to five by claygod Isner and led 5-1,40-0 by a guy who had made 2 clay finals by age 26, Andujar. Oh and let's not forget being pounded into the ground and later blowing a set by a 30 year old favorable matchup. No diss to Fed but a peaking/priming/whatever you wanna call him Nadal wouldn't have struggled as much.





The decline on HC and grass is negligible when compared to clay but certain aspects of his game did suffer. However, the game overall was pretty solid, especially on grass. On HC it's tougher to discern because Rafa has always been just above average on HC. Those glimmers I am talking about are like the delpo wb match, 1st set WB, 3rd set USO, stuff like that.




Wrong, Fed is excellent everywhere while Rafa is only excellent of clay and grass.




Yeah, it is about the slams and Tomic, a teen with barely any power in his strokes, on a very slow surface, had a double break up on Nadal :oops:



Well logic goes like this for Fed:

2004-2007(good years) - 2008(year affected by rival) - 2009(year without rival)

And then we judge accordingly for Nadal.

For Nadal it would be 2010(good year) - 2011(year affected by rival) - 2012(?)

But I factored in the fact that Nadal was in his seventh year as a top player and isn't as talented as Roger so the decline will hit him harder and it showed on the most physical surface, clay.

2011-2012 would be Nadal's last decent years since a player with a easier style and more talented found it very hard to keep winning big after his 8th slam winning season. Reason says that Rafa will try to save face in 2012 since it will probably be his last decent season. Grinders like Rafa don't tend to hang around and play their best 8 years after their rise. I am pessimistic about his 2012 but I would love to be wrong.




That's only because Federer's standard is incredibly high, to win 3 GS + TMC + a couple of masters. Even without Nadal, he has probably 3 GS in 2008 but less wins overall than in other, better seasons.
It would have been pretty sad if Rafa won 3 GS this year the way he won in RG. Let me put it this way, if I had to choose between 2010 Nadal with 3 slams and 2011 with 3 slams the choice is very easy to make. Even with the one slam he did win, there is no comparison between the way he played in 2010 RG and 2011 RG.




Should've lost to Fed in RG and Murray in WB and USO but Fed was too old and it's clay and Murray wasn't that good this year except for the first and very last part of the year(post USO). Yeah, Murray made all SF in slams but I thought that his performances in AO and WB were better in 2010. I wish I could say that Rafa played some stunning tennis to win these matches with Murray and Fed but I can't view any of these matches as classics.
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zagor said:
Going by that logic Nadal had no dropoff in slams either, he reached 6 of the last slam finals.



And Fed was extremely close to losing in early round in both HC slams in 2008 and in 2009 AO.



In 2008 on HC Fed got destroyed by Fish, lost matches( as opposed to Nadal "struggling" ) to Roddick, Karlovic, Blake etc. yet according to you he was not in decline.



Yeah and the standard for Fed is to win 2-3 slams a season and breeze through the early rounds in HC slams. The whole 2008 Fed was like an engine tryint to start.



And Nadal didn't receive some mental scars after his losses to Novak this year? Heck the FO match with Isner you constantly bring up was likely a consequence of Novak ownage.




Yeah and Nadal and Toni were rooting for Fed when he played Novak, said how Nadal feels 100 years old, asked for a 2 year ranking system and less tourneys on HC, how Novak is better than us etc.



My point stands, you along with the rest of Nadal fans have too often talked about decline in general terms this year for me to buy it that now you suddenly only meant clay.



Only thing I can agree with.




Yes according to your extremely biased opinion(I won't call you a blind hater though, I leave that to you) he didn't. However if you can claim Nadal declined in 2011 I sure as hell can claim Fed started declining on HC since 2008.



Yeah, just like Nadal lost Miami this year because of a heat stroke, Wimbledon final because of a broken foot, AO because of virus/abdominal strain and USO+WTF because of shoulder issues and too much rest/too much fatigue( can switch depending on the situation).



Well going by that logic I can claim Dementieva has a better serve than Karlovic then, now can't I?

The fact remains that you claimed Fed didn't decline in 2008 yet now when Nadal is in the same situation you can't stop whining about how his tennis sucks, his balls are short, his BH is crap, WTA serve etc.




Convincing for you probably means Nadal has to lose zero sets and no more than 3 games a set otherwise he's in terrible form, decline bla bla bla bla bla




But you can accept that Nadal in 2011 declined in slams and overall theory despite the fact that he reached 3 slam finals?

This is rich.



It's all about the slams bro, don't whine about it next time, Nadal reached 3 out of 4 slam finals which means he's in his peakest of peaks.



Whatever dude, Fed was on the brink of losing to Janko and Andreev, are they some HC Gods?

Not to mention that Fed also struggled with Isner in 2007 USO, OMG decline!!!




What decline? I thought you said decline was only on clay? The decline has to exist first and foremost before we dismiss it as negligible.



Solid? Meaning standard, right? How many years Nadal had in which he reached both Wimbledon and USO finals? How many in which he reached finals of both IW and Miami.





Nope, they're both excellent everywhere. Heck a declined Nadal can reach Wimbledon and USO finals and you don't think he's excellent on those surfaces?



You're using a match in which Nadal didn't lose a set to prove a decline? Honestly, this is hilarious. Of course Fed almost losing to Andreev at USO is no sign of decline though but Nadal almost losing a set is.



Except Nadal's 2011 was more affected by rival than Fed's 2008, Nadal went to town on field in 2011, can't say the same for Fed in 2008 especially when he was on the brink of losing in early rounds in both HC slams that year.



The decline will hit him harder yet his 2011 is much better overall than Fed's 2008 was and you even claim that Fed didn't decline in 2008 ? Can't have it both ways Nameless.




Bla bla bla, keep polishing your crystal ball and singing doom and gloom for Nadal. The guy had problem with one guy in 2011, one single player.



His standard is incredibly high yet according to you he didn't decline in 2008+ but Nadal did this year despite the fact that:

a)his standard is lower

b) Nadal's 2011 was a better year for him than 2008 was for Fed

You do realize the contradiction, don't you?



Yes and without Novak Nadal would have won 5 masters and 3 slams in 2011 thus making it his best career year. Without Nadal Fed's 2008 would have still only been his 4th best year at most.
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What a refreshing story..
3192526-man-eating-popcorn-while-watching-movie.jpg
 
namelessone said:
The manner in which you do it counts tremendously. He would have lost had Fed not taken out joker.
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Thanks for taking my post out of context. Nadal "perceivably" fared poorly in RG compared to previous editions is because of the lighter balls,he was atleast as good as 2010 if not better imo. And these same balls favoured Federer's game which explains why he did better at RG than AO plus had one of his best RGs of his career. Hardly surprising for a 30 yr old.

And I agree , Joker would've beaten Nadal at RG had he made it. Infact I believe Djokovic 2.0 beats any version of Nadal on clay simply because Nadal's BH abuse doesn't work against Nole's solid BH. We are knee-deep in subjective analysis. :)

namelessone said:
Let me put it this way. If you make a rating of just claycourters(with mostly a CC pedigree), Andujar wouldn't even be top 20. The guy can only make 250 finals and even though he is spanish, he's only made 4 at this pretty advanced age(someone like Almagro, who would be considered a weak draw for Nadal by many here, made 14 clay finals and is one year older). Don't get me wrong, I like his prospects, I saw him in Bucharest tourney but he's way way way lower than Nadal on the clay skill charts and yet he almost breadsticked a supposedly peak/prime Nadal.
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I think Andujar would fare better against Nadal compared to Almagro because of Pablo's more solid DH BH. SH BHs are a liability on clay unless you're Kuerten. Although Almagro might beat Andujar. Matchups also come into play. The breadstick(which didn't happen anyway, "almost" doesnt count against a player like Nadal anyway) is because of lighter balls.



namelessone said:
No this is what you imply so it will give you something to talk about.

Look at it logically - Nadal, in his BEST YEAR EVAR on clay, to quote Djokovicfortheloss, met a post post prime favorable matchup that he beat in much tougher conditions,when Fed was at his peakiest peak. And yet Nadal BARELY made it through the first set after being stomped on for a while, won the second with a tiebreak, Fed fought back in the third(after Nadal broke first) only to collapse in the fourth. Easily Nadal's worst RG final in terms of quality. A more focused Fed would have won.
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Like I said it wasn't a 2008ish peformance(which is thanks to Fed playing absolute s*** that day) from Nadal but it was prime level from him still, as good if not better than 2010 atleast.
 
It's called Denial.

But I am sure our resident phlyarologists (or whatever) such as nameless and CMM can put it more eloquently.
 
namelessone said:
Maybe he was going for it more against Nadal? He had 11 in five sets. It would be interesting to see his DF for the rest of the AO.
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21 in total and 11 in finals. That's a lot for Roger even if he were facing Nadal. And quit the 'going for it more' theory and watch the match.
 
mandy01 said:
21 in total and 11 in finals. That's a lot for Roger even if he were facing Nadal. And quit the 'going for it more' theory and watch the match.
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As you said it's just a theory but it could be significant that 50% of ALL DF in that tourney came in the final.

For the rest it's 10 DF in 6 matches. 10 DF in 20 sets until the final(Fed had another five setter with Berdych). That's one DF in two sets, hardly a big number.

You could make a case for Fed's bad back affecting his serve percentage or speed in AO 09 but the DF count is hardly an argument IMO.
 
namelessone said:
As you said it's just a theory but it could be significant that 50% of ALL DF in that tourney came in the final.

For the rest it's 10 DF in 6 matches. 10 DF in 20 sets until the final(Fed had another five setter with Berdych). That's one DF in two sets, hardly a big number.

You could make a case for Fed's bad back affecting his serve percentage or speed in AO 09 but the DF count is hardly an argument IMO.
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He made 6 double faults in the final, not 10-11.

Regardless of the way you twist it, making 20+ DBFs throghout a slam tourney is not the norm for Fed.

I know, I know, he still made the final which proves he wasn't in decline of course but then again Nadal made 3 slam finals (which is not the norm for him, only the 2nd time he ever did that) this year yet he supposedly declined both mentally and physically according to you so...

In other words, all that Nadal needed to do in order to win was to show up.
 
Crisstti said:
Only a blind hater would think Novak beating Rafa on clay is an unavoidable fact... based on two matches.
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Why are you attacking Aphex for his beliefs? That is not very nice.

“It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for something you are not.”
 
Readers said:
Nadal must have done something right, else he won't get this many dumbass hating on him.
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Most of the jokes (not really hating, are at his fans, *not* Nadal), ... certain fans who like to call Joker names, and insult his family and country, while if anyone mentions Rafa's losses to Joker that's hating.

I suppose you've forgotten how much most Rafa fans here hated on Federer/Fedfans during 2008-10 when Fed was being spanked by Rafa. Now that Joker is doing the same to Rafa suddenly the same folks are being overly sensitive.

You guys basically need to chill.
 
I think that nadal is declining physically but the biggest problem was getting owned by djokovic.

I mean getting beat on hardcourt by novak was hard for rafa. but it was still something he could have gotten over. when he lost to novak they said "yeah but this is hard on clay he will turn it around".

but then the unbelievable happened. instead of getting closer nadal got beat up even harder on clay than he was on hardcourt. that was really eating up his confidence. it even seems like the slower the court the more novak dominates him.

that was the worst for him. of course on a perfect day federer could always blast him away with winners. but this is something a defensive player has to live with.

but when he who was supposed to be the best grinder on tour got outgrinded on slow courts by novak he knew he was in real trouble.

his greatest strengths are not working against novak because novak is even better at this. this had to really hurt him mentally.

I also don't believe in a rest year. If he can't turn it around this year he never will again unless novak gets hurt or so. remember that novak is younger than rafa and that rafas body is more ruined than most 30 yo bodies.
 
dominikk1985 said:
I think that nadal is declining physically but the biggest problem was getting owned by djokovic.

I mean getting beat on hardcourt by novak was hard for rafa. but it was still something he could have gotten over. when he lost to novak they said "yeah but this is hard on clay he will turn it around".

but then the unbelievable happened. instead of getting closer nadal got beat up even harder on clay than he was on hardcourt. that was really eating up his confidence. it even seems like the slower the court the more novak dominates him.

that was the worst for him. of course on a perfect day federer could always blast him away with winners. but this is something a defensive player has to live with.

but when he who was supposed to be the best grinder on tour got outgrinded on slow courts by novak he knew he was in real trouble.

his greatest strengths are not working against novak because novak is even better at this. this had to really hurt him mentally.

I also don't believe in a rest year. If he can't turn it around this year he never will again unless novak gets hurt or so. remember that novak is younger than rafa and that rafas body is more ruined than most 30 yo bodies.
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I think Nadal COULD have lived with losses to Djokovic in Masters Finals, regardless of surface. I think most of the mental damage was done at Wimbledon. As every critic says, nobody cares about Masters. The real test is in the Slams. Nadal losing to Djokovic in the Wimbledon final sealed the deal that Djokovic was officially his rival. Especially considering that Djokovic wasn't even regarded as a top grass court player but he looked every bit of it in that Wimbledon final.
 
Sentinel said:
Rafa's the only top player who is in form prior to AO. He's my bet for AO.

The rest are either crawling, limping or moaning out of exhaustion (*already* !!!).
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Is he? I liked what I saw from Djokovic, Murray, Ferrer and Tsonga too the past couple of weeks.
 
Mike Sams said:
I think Nadal COULD have lived with losses to Djokovic in Masters Finals, regardless of surface. I think most of the mental damage was done at Wimbledon. As every critic says, nobody cares about Masters. The real test is in the Slams. Nadal losing to Djokovic in the Wimbledon final sealed the deal that Djokovic was officially his rival. Especially considering that Djokovic wasn't even regarded as a top grass court player but he looked every bit of it in that Wimbledon final.
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this was hard too. imagine what would have happened if fed wouldn't have beat novak in the FO and then novak killed rafa in paris:D.

Rafa would have killed himself.:)
 
namelessone said:
Is Aphex banned and if so what was the reason?

It couldn't have been his constant trolling behavior since he has been doing that for a loooooong time. Did he **** off the mods?
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must have been some "over the line" adjective that he tended to do when heated!!
 
You need to wake up, didn't you know he is peak of peak. Anyone suggesting decline is just out right ignorant :)

hoodjem said:
I have this hunch that 2012 will be a rather bad year for Nadal.

It seems like with all those losses to Djokovic last year, his spirit is broken. Nadal's will to win has been severely diminished. He seems much more vulnerable than previously.

I even suspect that he will not win the FO--he seems that much of a "lesser player."
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Very classy of Nadal to have a bad year and give the other players a chance. :)
 
namelessone said:
Is Aphex banned and if so what was the reason?

It couldn't have been his constant trolling behavior since he has been doing that for a loooooong time. Did he **** off the mods?
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I think you tend to misuse the term trolling for simple cases of people making fun of each other or maybe cheering against Nadal.
 
jackson vile said:
You need to wake up, didn't you know he is peak of peak. Anyone suggesting decline is just out right ignorant :)
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Didn't he reach 4 slam finals in a row for the first time in his career recently?
Did any player in the history of the game reach 4 slam finals in a row for the first time in his career while in decline? Nadal seems to be a pretty special case.

Regardless I wouldn't say anyone suggesting Nadal declined at the age of 24-25 is ignorant, I would however say that people who claim xy player is playing as good as ever at the age of 30-31 (because that notion suits their clear as daylight agenda while at the same time claiming their 24 year old idol has declined have humongous double standards and are outright hypocrites.
 
The beginning of 2010 looked a lot worse for Rafa than the beginning of 2012 has. And we all saw how 2010 turned out for Rafa...

It's sports. It's unpredictable. 2012 could be his worst year on tour, sure, but it could also be the best if he, for example, wins the next 3 Slams + OG. Nobody knows how it's going to shake out for anybody, so let's just evaluate how good/bad the year was for Nadal at the END of the year.
 
Juan Ma Del Pony said:
The beginning of 2010 looked a lot worse for Rafa than the beginning of 2012 has. And we all saw how 2010 turned out for Rafa...

It's sports. It's unpredictable. 2012 could be his worst year on tour, sure, but it could also be the best if he, for example, wins the next 3 Slams + OG. Nobody knows how it's going to shake out for anybody, so let's just evaluate how good/bad the year was for Nadal at the END of the year.
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There was no Del Potro in 2010 and Djokovic was in the slump of his life and Federer was basically losing to mugs (Gulbis, Hewitt, Montanes), etc. Murray was hot and cold. There was no competition for Nadal in 2010.
2012 on the other hand is a whole different level of competition which Nadal has to deal with. The Djokovic factor being the biggest but also the return of Del Potro. Not to mention Federer is playing several levels better than he was in 2010 by the looks of it. Also factor in that Nadal is heading for 26. Historically, nothing really gets easier for players in their late 20s, especially the grinder types like Nadal.
 
Mike Sams said:
There was no Del Potro in 2010 and Djokovic was in the slump of his life and Federer was basically losing to mugs (Gulbis, Hewitt, Montanes), etc. Murray was hot and cold. There was no competition for Nadal in 2010.
2012 on the other hand is a whole different level of competition which Nadal has to deal with. The Djokovic factor being the biggest but also the return of Del Potro. Not to mention Federer is playing several levels better than he was in 2010 by the looks of it. Also factor in that Nadal is heading for 26. Historically, nothing really gets easier for players in their late 20s, especially the grinder types like Nadal.
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Federer is a mug. What are u talking about ?
 
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hoodjem said:
I have this hunch that 2012 will be a rather bad year for Nadal.

It seems like with all those losses to Djokovic last year, his spirit is broken. Nadal's will to win has been severely diminished. He seems much more vulnerable than previously.

I even suspect that he will not win the FO--he seems that much of a "lesser player."
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hoodjem, what is your prediction for Nadal's 2013 ?
 
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