2015 ATP WTF RR: Djokovic (1) vs. Federer (3)

[veroniquem]

IMO there is something debatable about it. Of course it means that Djokovic has been more consistent at the USO than Nadal has but with two titles each (and hello titles are what matter most) it's very difficult to say Djokovic is superior.

No it is not difficult at all. It takes 6 wins to reach a slam final. Doing it is superior to not doing it. It is not for nothing that they give a trophy to both finalists at the end.
Head to head has nothing to do with achievement. It is something you can use to predict the outcome of an upcoming match, decide who to bet on or assess the level of domination of one player vs the field (win % vs top 10 for instance). What it never is, is a substitute for achievement.
I cannot say that Nadal is a superior player to Fed at AO because he's 3-0 vs Fed at that event. The reason why I can't say it is because his head to head vs Fed at AO has 0 relevance to what each player has achieved at AO (4 titles for Fed, 1 for Nadal). Similarly, any claim that Melzer is a superior player to Djoko at RG (he's 1-0 vs Djoko at that event) would be simply preposterous.
The only way head to head could even be considered worth being brought up is if the record at 1 event was a perfect tie.
When I said it is not arguable, I meant it could not be argued in a reasonable way. No more than one could argue that the earth is flat. They could always claim it but they would not withstand the test of credibility.
Same here. I can easily prove that using head to head to measure respective achievements has 0 credibility. See examples above.

 

[Feather]

Yes it is. It is absolutely arguable. It depends whether or not one gives ample credence to more slam finals to determine whether a player is better at a slam. For me Nadal and Novak being tied at two USO titles and Nadal having the 2-1 winning h2h takes precedence over the extra finals Novak has. If Novak was so much better than Nadal at the USO he would have more USO titles and given the fact that Novak is a superior hc player to Nadal, Novak should have more USO titles. Reaching more finals and failing to win them is not necessarily a positive for Novak in this discussion. TITLES MATTER MORE IMO and there is no substitute for winning the title. The history books currently have Novak and Nadal tied with 2 USOs.

I am really surprised you said that.

I am not a fan of Djokovic, but I have to admit, Djokovic is much better than Rafa at US Open as of now and it's not arguable. He has four more finals.

Disregarding runners up is ridiculous. So Roger Federer and Juan Carlos Ferrero should be equal at RG, right? Sorry, this is ******** logic

 

[sbengte]

I am really surprised you said that.

I am not a fan of Djokovic, but I have to admit, Djokovic is much better than Rafa at US Open as of now and it's not arguable. He has four more finals.

Disregarding runners up is ridiculous. So Roger Federer and Juan Carlos Ferrero should be equal at RG, right? Sorry, this is ******** logic

cc's objectivity is sometimes compromised by the Rafa-love and Djoko-hate

 

[Fedalforever]

When did Ferrero beat Roger in 2 RG finals?! Poor analogy. A better one would be Wawrinka vs Nadal at AO....I'd definitely take Nadal's record but it's nothing substantial that it can't be argued reasonably the other way. To have a clear edge at a slam you have to have an extra title there. Next thing you'll tell me is Djokovic's record at Cincinnati is better than Nadal's...

 

[mike danny]

I agree with your point, but Nadal and Wawrinka are 1-1 at the AO.

Why are they 1-1? When did Nadal beat Stan at the AO?

 

[Fedalforever]

Why are they 1-1? When did Nadal beat Stan at the AO?

1-1 as in number of AOs..

 

[cc0509]

veroniquem, post: 9824334, member: 29340"]No it is not difficult at all. It takes 6 wins to reach a slam final. Doing it is superior to not doing it. It is not for nothing that they give a trophy to both finalists at the end

The fact that Djokovic has reached more finals shows he is more consistent than Nadal at the USO but for him to be better than Nadal FOR ME, he needs to win another USO and not be tied with Nadal. Capiche? I put more emphasis on an extra title win than I do extra finals. I'm not the only person who feels that way I assure you.

Head to head has nothing to do with achievement. It is something you can use to predict the outcome of an upcoming match, decide who to bet on or assess the level of domination of one player vs the field (win % vs top 10 for instance). What it never is, is a substitute for achievement.
I cannot say that Nadal is a superior player to Fed at AO because he's 3-0 vs Fed at that event. The reason why I can't say it is because his head to head vs Fed at AO has 0 relevance to what each player has achieved at AO (4 titles for Fed, 1 for Nadal). Similarly, any claim that Melzer is a superior player to Djoko at RG (he's 1-0 vs Djoko at that event) would be simply preposterous.
The only way head to head could even be considered worth being brought up is if the record at 1 event was a perfect tie.
When I said it is not arguable, I meant it could not be argued in a reasonable way. No more than one could argue that the earth is flat. They could always claim it but they would not withstand the test of credibility.
Same here. I can easily prove that using head to head to measure respective achievements has 0 credibility. See examples above.

I agree with you about the h2h issue. As I said in an earlier post the fact that Federer has three more AO titles than Nadal despite his losing h2h vs Nadal at the AO clearly tells me Federer is the superior AO player. In the case of Djokovic vs Nadal at the USO, the problem I have is that they are tied with two titles each and IMO in order for Djokovic to be the decidedly superior player at the USO he needs to bag an additional title over Nadal. Simples.

 

[addictedtotopspin]

HELLO

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=437493933123306&set=o.108842485815772&type=3

Please help me and my friend to go to Australia and watch Australian Open and all big tennis names for FREE.
Its prize contest organized by KIA directly.All we need is one like to picture.
Share and comments will help too.

THX ALOT

 

[cc0509]

I am really surprised you said that.

I am not a fan of Djokovic, but I have to admit, Djokovic is much better than Rafa at US Open as of now and it's not arguable. He has four more finals.

Disregarding runners up is ridiculous. So Roger Federer and Juan Carlos Ferrero should be equal at RG, right? Sorry, this is ******** logic

Sorry Feath, that's how I feel about it. All I'm saying is that I give more importance to extra titles than extra finals. All Djoke has to do is win another USO and Nadal stay at his USO total and for me Djokovic will then be superior there. I've already given the example of Sampras vs Federer at Wimbledon. For me they are equal there with seven titles despite the fact that Federer has more finals. For Federer to be seen as the without a doubt better player than Sampras at Wimbledon, he would need to break the tie and win an 8th title.

 

[Fedalforever]

Sorry Feath, that's how I feel about it. All I'm saying is that I give more importance to extra titles than extra finals. All Djoke has to do is win another USO and Nadal stay at his USO total and for me Djokovic will then be superior there. I've already given the example of Sampras vs Federer at Wimbledon. For me they are equal there with seven titles despite the fact that Federer has more finals. For Federer to be seen as the without a doubt better player than Sampras at Wimbledon, he would need to break the tie and win an 8th title.

And in Fed vs Sampras, Fed actually is 1-0 vs Sampras at Wimbledon...whereas Djokovic is 1-2 vs Nadal at USO....

 

[Feather]

Sorry Feath, that's how I feel about it. All I'm saying is that I give more importance to extra titles than extra finals. All Djoke has to do is win another USO and Nadal stay at his USO total and for me Djokovic will then be superior there. I've already given the example of Sampras vs Federer at Wimbledon. For me they are equal there with seven titles despite the fact that Federer has more finals. For Federer to be seen as the without a doubt better player than Sampras at Wimbledon, he would need to break the tie and win an 8th title.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[cc0509]

We can agree to disagree.

Absolutely. That's what this forum is for.

 

[Feather]

And in Fed vs Sampras, Fed actually is 1-0 vs Sampras at Wimbledon...whereas Djokovic is 1-2 vs Nadal at USO....

Come on, I am a die hard fan of Roger Federer but that H2H between them on SW19 means nothing. Both were not in the prime, and even if they were in their peaks taking one match sample to draw a conclusion is ridiculous

 

[cc0509]

cc's objectivity is sometimes compromised by the Rafa-love and Djoko-hate

But it isn't about my bias in this case because I believe Federer (my favorite player) is tied with Sampras at Wimbledon until Federer can win another title despite the fact that Federer has more finals. I'm not saying extra finals don't mean anything, far from it. I'm saying that IMO an extra title means more than extra finals when you want to truly say player X is superior to player Y at a slam.

 

[Fedalforever]

Come on, I am a die hard fan of Roger Federer but that H2H between them on SW19 means nothing. Both were not in the prime, and even if they were in their peaks taking one match sample to draw a conclusion is ridiculous

Wtf, where am I saying that 1 match means something? Heck like cc said, I don't think even 3 finals extra are CONCLUSIVE proof of Federer being better than Sampras at Wimbledon. My point was extra finals+HTH is still not enough for me as the number of titles is the same...in the case of USO...it's not even extra finals+HTH advantage for 1 player.

 

[Fedeonic]

I don't want to dig up this match thread, but ATP doesn't have the stats of this match, instead, they've got the final match stats. If someone could find out this or somewhere to find it, I'd be very grateful.

 

[metsman]

I don't want to dig up this match thread, but ATP doesn't have the stats of this match, instead, they've got the final match stats. If someone could find out this or somewhere to find it, I'd be very grateful.

tennisabstract has them.

 

[falstaff78]

I don't want to dig up this match thread, but ATP doesn't have the stats of this match, instead, they've got the final match stats. If someone could find out this or somewhere to find it, I'd be very grateful.

Here you go. Every conceivable stat from the match charting project.

http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/20151117-M-Tour_Finals-RR-Roger_Federer-Novak_Djokovic.html