2015 Cincy Final: N Djokovic (1) vs R Federer (2)

who wins?

  • Total voters
    107
Anaconda said:
The only person in the past 6 years who has a better record than Djokovic at the US Open is Nadal, who I doubt will make it far at this years US Open.





BTW Djokovic beat Murray in the US Open, can't remember the year but it was pretty recent.
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It was last year (4 sets in QF), still Murray seems in better form this year, who knows what will happen should they meet. It's not merely about who has a better record, Novak just doesn't seem to show up in best form at USO for some reason. I think he should have skipped/tanked one of Canada/Cincy double this year with his ranking being secured and all.
 
Is it just me, or did Feder lay down some bloody epic second serves in large stretches this week? I know, it's always been the stuff of legends, but it seemed he nailed it especially well a lot of the time this week, and I think his performance against both Murray and Novak cements that.
 
This result doesn't surprise me much, given how well Federer plays this event, and how poorly Djokovic's results have been. But it should be noted that Djokovic is no longer playing at the level we saw from October through approximately May, in which he was winning matches easily and looked impregnable. This is the time of year when he typically struggles, for whatever reason. North America doesn't seem to agree with him as much as Asia.
 
Mainad said:
Damn, I was really counting on Novak to secure Andy's #2 ranking for him but I guess it just wasn't meant to be! :(;)

Cincy really is a jinxed tournament for Novak. 5 finals now and not even a single set between them! What is it about this event that perplexes him so much? He never seems to play his really best tennis at it.

On the plus side, he's probably still coming down from his Wimbledon high. He's still making the finals of everything he appears in, he just lacks a bit of oomph at the moment to carry him over the finishing line. I have no doubt he'll be back to his best by the time Flushing Meadows gets underway!
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All the top players have one or two tournaments in which they seem completely jinxed. Djokovic has Cincinnati and Roland Garros (0-5 and 0-3), Federer has Monte Carlo and Rome (0-4 and 0-4), Nadal has Miami and the WTF (0-4 and 0-2), and Murray has the Australian Open (0-4). I think in addition to their opponents, there's a mental block as well, which must be extremely frustrating.
 
marc45 said:
may be able to finish ahead of him and Murray, this weekend was big for that..looked like for awhile he was going to be 0-3 against his Big 3 opponents
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Unless Fed retires tomorrow Nole will almost certainly beat him in the H2H. Which is a meaningless stat in any case.
 
"It was right tactics for him. I knew coming into the match he was going to be aggressive. No question about it. So I tried to handle it. I did well until the tie-break in the first set. After that, he was just the better player." - Djokovic

That is what I like about Djokovic. Straight up, no excuses. I hope he gets another shot at Roger in NYC. Their rivalry needs another US Open final showdown.
 
I'm glad Federer won today, but looking at the big picture, does it really tell anything? I'll guess it shows that even after a disappointing Wimbledon final, Roger is still hungry and can still compete with the top guys. However, does this really add to his chance of succeeding at the USO ? It's obvious that today's victory helps Federer's seeding (thanks to those who answered my previous question about the ranking), but him winning or losing today doesn't make him any more or less of a contender in NY (save for the seeding) and I think the same can be said about Djokovic.

Federer played a brilliant tournament this week and looked great with his "new" strategy and those ridiculous serve return, really WOW. But looking at this objectively, no one can deny the fact that Djokovic's level today was far from his Wimbledon final level. I'm not trying to take away anything from today's victory, but to say that because of today's result, Federer would own Djokovic in a best of 5 at the USO is perhaps getting a bit too excited. He's got very good chances obviously, but playing 7 best of 5 matches over 2 weeks vs 5 best of 3 in 5 days is quite different. If Federer has a favorable draw in NY and can cruise until the SF, I think he's got good chances as long as he doesn't get into a 5 setter which has proven to be lethal. But now that they are playing the SF and F in back-to-back days, this is a definite disadvantage to Roger.

Am I the only one that got a weird feeling from Federer's victory speech & celebration? I think it's the 1st time we see him go back to his team right away after a victory to hug and then kiss his wife. Even his speech wasn't the usual stuff, especially the I don't know how many times/years I'll be able to come back here. I don't know, it sounded like he was near retirement or something? I was surprised to read that he considered retiring after the DC cup at the end of 2014. To a lot of us, it's something we're not looking forward to, but perhaps the end is near?
 
If the US OPEN court/balls were faster, Federer would have chances (even being 3 best of 5 sets) against Djokovic in a possible final (though chances of him being defeated early by random floater would be higher too).
 
Towser83 said:
Are you saying Federer's game is less inferior compared to Sampras? Do you know what that means?
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hahah.. I was wondering when someone would pick up on the fact that 90s clay feet had inadvertently used the wrong construction and ended up saying the opposite of what he mean to say
 
GabeT said:
Unless Fed retires tomorrow Nole will almost certainly beat him in the H2H. Which is a meaningless stat in any case.
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not meaningless of course, unless you're on the wrong end..been through that a million times...and not like Fed doesn't know all this, and cares....and don't think for a second he doesn't think he may be able to play through next year and keep that edge on Novak...Mr. Positivity, unlike many of his fans, sadly
 
Roddick85 said:
I'm glad Federer won today, but looking at the big picture, does it really tell anything? I'll guess it shows that even after a disappointing Wimbledon final, Roger is still hungry and can still compete with the top guys. However, does this really add to his chance of succeeding at the USO ? It's obvious that today's victory helps Federer's seeding (thanks to those who answered my previous question about the ranking), but him winning or losing today doesn't make him any more or less of a contender in NY (save for the seeding) and I think the same can be said about Djokovic.

Federer played a brilliant tournament this week and looked great with his "new" strategy and those ridiculous serve return, really WOW. But looking at this objectively, no one can deny the fact that Djokovic's level today was far from his Wimbledon final level. I'm not trying to take away anything from today's victory, but to say that because of today's result, Federer would own Djokovic in a best of 5 at the USO is perhaps getting a bit too excited. He's got very good chances obviously, but playing 7 best of 5 matches over 2 weeks vs 5 best of 3 in 5 days is quite different. If Federer has a favorable draw in NY and can cruise until the SF, I think he's got good chances as long as he doesn't get into a 5 setter which has proven to be lethal. But now that they are playing the SF and F in back-to-back days, this is a definite disadvantage to Roger.

Am I the only one that got a weird feeling from Federer's victory speech & celebration? I think it's the 1st time we see him go back to his team right away after a victory to hug and then kiss his wife. Even his speech wasn't the usual stuff, especially the I don't know how many times/years I'll be able to come back here. I don't know, it sounded like he was near retirement or something? I was surprised to read that he considered retiring after the DC cup at the end of 2014. To a lot of us, it's something we're not looking forward to, but perhaps the end is near?
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Haven't seen many posters here saying Federer would own Djokovic at Flushing's now. Not really looking at the bigger picture, tbh. For sure, he is a contender at the USO, but obviously a LOT has to go his way. Best of 5, 7 matches, slower court than Cinci, etc, will all play a factor there. It's just nice to see Fed winning titles whether they be 250's or 1000's.

Yea, Fed's speeches have been like this for a few months now. I'm expecting the retirement announcement in the next year or so really...:(
 
90's Clay said:
Sampras would SLEEPWALK through these grinders on grass, hards and indoors. He would have nothing to worry about.

Sampras' wimbledon titles would be between 8-10 and USO titles between 8-10 in this era with maybe 3 AO titles and a few good runs at the French. Maybe 1 French Open title
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Why not simply give him a nice round 40 slams?
 
Roddick85 said:
I'm not trying to take away anything from today's victory, but to say that because of today's result, Federer would own Djokovic in a best of 5 at the USO is perhaps getting a bit too excited.
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Didn't see people say that honestly, his fans are just happy he played some scintillating all-court tennis to win Cincy. Novak would be a big favourite over Fed at USO should they meet, so would Stan and even Murray to a lesser extent, slower court and BO5 format is just a different animal.

Roddick85 said:
But now that they are playing the SF and F in back-to-back days, this is a definite disadvantage to Roger.
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They aren't from what I understand, SF on Friday, F on Sunday.

Roddick85 said:
Am I the only one that got a weird feeling from Federer's victory speech & celebration? I think it's the 1st time we see him go back to his team right away after a victory to hug and then kiss his wife. Even his speech wasn't the usual stuff, especially the I don't know how many times/years I'll be able to come back here. I don't know, it sounded like he was near retirement or something? I was surprised to read that he considered retiring after the DC cup at the end of 2014. To a lot of us, it's something we're not looking forward to, but perhaps the end is near?
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Yeah, it was a bit peculiar. At 34 the retirement can't be that far either way but I'm not sure even Fed himself knows when, might depend on how he does at USO.
 
zagor said:
Not so sure, in 2014 Wimbledon Fed had a **** easy SF and Novak had a tough one with Dimitrov but Fed still lost his legs in the 5th and that's on grass (much less pounding than HC, not to mention less serve freebies).

Don't think there's a scenario where Fed would have a physical advantage over Novak. Murray and Stan could have (or some 25-26 player like Nishikori or Dimitrov) but not Fed.
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agree completely, Fed would need a smooth route towards a potential final to stand a decent chance vs. Novak there. But let's not go there just yet, tonight is a time for celebration.

Proud to be a fan, he really put a smile on my face with his tennis this week, especially today. And got to see everything except a few of the first games vs. Anderson. Great week.
 
Chanwan said:
He probably does, but not to the extent, where he's a zombie for the last 2 months of the season. I expect him to have the best indoor
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But that's why I compared this year to 2011 for him because in 2011 he did burn out. I'm not saying I expect it, but it could happen IMO.
 
marc45 said:
not meaningless of course, unless you're on the wrong end..been through that a million times...and not like Fed doesn't know all this, and cares....and don't think for a second he doesn't think he may be able to play through next year and keep that edge on Novak...Mr. Positivity, unlike many of his fans, sadly
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Just because Fed possibly cares, doesn't mean I as his fan have to. Sure, it can be used against him in the terribly exciting GOAT debate but not everyone is immersed in that. Personally, I like Fed's tennis and think he's one of the best but that's about it, don't think he needs to be put on the pedestal over any other former or current tennis great.

I find H2H in general to be a highly circumstantial stat where player's absolute value supposedly drops if he loses to another top player in the final instead of getting bounced in earlier rounds. I just don't put as much stock in it.

Besides if Fed was so desperate about preserving H2H I reckon he would retired by now or would have ducked Novak in places like Rome and IW where the chances of him winning are slim.
 
Roddick85 said:
Am I the only one that got a weird feeling from Federer's victory speech & celebration? I think it's the 1st time we see him go back to his team right away after a victory to hug and then kiss his wife. Even his speech wasn't the usual stuff, especially the I don't know how many times/years I'll be able to come back here. I don't know, it sounded like he was near retirement or something? I was surprised to read that he considered retiring after the DC cup at the end of 2014. To a lot of us, it's something we're not looking forward to, but perhaps the end is near?
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I wouldn't worry yet. I think he's still looking at the Olympics next year assuming all goes well. He's also said before that the Olympics thing was just to get people off his back about the retirement question. I could see him retiring at the end of 2016 though (don't think he would retire in the middle of a season).
 
Krish872007 said:
...for 2016.
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Noooooooooo. We need a roof this year already.
Steve0904 said:
But that's why I compared this year to 2011 for him because in 2011 he did burn out. I'm not saying I expect it, but it could happen IMO.
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Agree to disagree, but we'll see soon enough. I think the attention and pressure that came with being no. 1 got to him in 2011. He was just completely empty post US Open. Now, he knows what it's all about and will know how to pace himself post US Open (and not play DC right after properly).
 
Congrats to Federer, Blnt Djokovic, Federer will keep his 8,065 ATP Points, while Djokovic will get 600-90+14,265= 14,775 ATP points. Number 1 on the ATP World Tour and Slam Events.

Like was said by more than one poster, this is Djokovic 10th or 11th straight Final, he needs a rest.

Federer will not retire, no where else can make High prize money playing tennis except playing the ATP tour.

Cheers
3Fees :)
 
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OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG
OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG
I couldn't stop yelling, oohing and wowing watching Federer demolishing Djokovic. Federer plays the best tennis!!!!!!!!!
 
3fees said:
Congrats to Federer, Blnt Djokovic, Federer will keep his 8,065 ATP Points, while Djokovic will get 600-90+14,265= 14,775 ATP points. Number 1 on the ATP World Tour and Slam Events.

Like was said by more than one poster, this is Djokovic 10th or 11th straight Final, he needs a rest.

Federer will not retire, no where else can make High prize money playing tennis except playing the ATP tour.

Cheers
3Fees :)
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just to correct you on the ranking points: http://live-tennis.eu/
 
zagor said:
Not so sure, in 2014 Wimbledon Fed had a **** easy SF and Novak had a tough one with Dimitrov but Fed still lost his legs in the 5th and that's on grass (much less pounding than HC, not to mention less serve freebies).

Don't think there's a scenario where Fed would have a physical advantage over Novak. Murray and Stan could have (or some 25-26 player like Nishikori or Dimitrov) but not Fed.
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Not that I really disagree, but the reasons you mentioned for why Fed should lose his legs faster on HC than on grass holds for Novak as well: i.e., Novak would have been less tired from his semi with Greg at Wimby than a similar match on HC. It was a four-setter on grass, and Grigor kept the points very short most of the time to boot, so it wouldn't have been that taxing.

If Novak ends up playing a super-grindy five-setter against Murray in the semi of the USO, and plays some slightly tough ones before that, then I think Novak would be feeling it physically in the final. (Fed would obviously need a very smooth route for this to be an advantage for him).
 
3fees said:
Congrats to Federer, Blnt Djokovic, Federer will keep his 8,065 ATP Points, while Djokovic will get 600-90+14,265= 14,775 ATP points. Number 1 on the ATP World Tour and Slam Events.

Like was said by more than one poster, this is Djokovic 10th or 11th straight Final, he needs a rest.

Federer will not retire, no where else can make High prize money playing tennis except playing the ATP tour.

Cheers
3Fees :)
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No, the points from 2014 have already been dropped. Federer gains 1000 on top of his 8065. And Djokovic gains 600 ontop of his existing 14265
 
Steve0904 said:
I wouldn't worry yet. I think he's still looking at the Olympics next year assuming all goes well. He's also said before that the Olympics thing was just to get people off his back about the retirement question. I could see him retiring at the end of 2016 though (don't think he would retire in the middle of a season).
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That's what I think too, and I always thought he might even stay longer, like 2017 or something. I mean if he's still competitive come 2016-2017 and still has the desire/drive to play, why retire? Age is nothing but a number after all.
What "worried" me today is his reaction after winning wasn't the same as usual. I mean we never see Roger hug his team after a victory, it really felt like he was retiring soon or something, especially with the speech. Perhaps he was implying that he wouldn't be back in Cincinnati next year because I understand the Olympics are right before or something? Anyway, all I can say is that tennis will be in bad shape the day he really calls it day, it will be a sad day for tennis.
 
Martin J said:
Djokovic has a tendency to become frustrated when his opponent is not giving him a rhythm (flat, crazy hitters, crazy servers, the players who employ an all-court strategy and rush him). And this type of players have much more chance to beat him under the Cincinnati conditions.
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Yes, kind of like Dolgo was close, except Fed didn't choke (and I didn't expect him to).
 
Roddick85 said:
That's what I think too, and I always thought he might even stay longer, like 2017 or something. I mean if he's still competitive come 2016-2017 and still has the desire/drive to play, why retire? Age is nothing but a number after all.
What "worried" me today is his reaction after winning wasn't the same as usual. I mean we never see Roger hug his team after a victory, it really felt like he was retiring soon or something, especially with the speech. Perhaps he was implying that he wouldn't be back in Cincinnati next year because I understand the Olympics are right before or something? Anyway, all I can say is that tennis will be in bad shape the day he really calls it day, it will be a sad day for tennis.
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Yes, I have a feeling he might skip Cincy next year to prep for the Olympics and as a consequence might never play there again. I was going to say that in my earlier post too, but I don't want him to skip it when he's been winning it recently. :) I'd rather he skipped the Rogers Cup again, but maybe that's the source of emotion from Federer.
 
Hitman said:
"It was right tactics for him. I knew coming into the match he was going to be aggressive. No question about it. So I tried to handle it. I did well until the tie-break in the first set. After that, he was just the better player." - Djokovic

That is what I like about Djokovic. Straight up, no excuses. I hope he gets another shot at Roger in NYC. Their rivalry needs another US Open final showdown.
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Indeed. After the 6-5 in the first set, Federer won 23 out of 27 points to go up a set and a break.

Edit: 23 out of 28.
 
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Rejoice indeed! Always a great day when Djokovic is defeated. None other than by Federer himself. Well done. Djokovic is defending a lot of ranking points in the next 6 months or so. Perfect time to fall down in the rankings.
 
Chanwan said:
WTF is much slower as someone else already said. It's also fairly low bouncing though, which Fed likes. But he can't hit through Novak enough on it these days

He would need that yes.

He probably does, but not to the extent, where he's a zombie for the last 2 months of the season. I expect him to have the best indoor
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weird court, ball seems to hit a spot and stick there...watching it plays tricks with your head...should be a warning on screen..Only Sober
 
Martin J said:
The conditions in Cincinnati are faster which allows some players to put Novak out of his comfort zone. The tournament is using the Pro DecoTurf II type of the court (categorized by the ITF as a Medium-fast court, Category IV) and the altitude is higher than in London or in New York, so Djokovic cannot just grind out his opponent by playing purely defensive and high percentage tennis.
Also, he's lost those two finals to the players who own him on faster hard courts: twice to Murray and thrice to Federer.

Murray is a master of redirecting the pace of his opponents and using it against them. It's especially effective on those faster courts because he robs them of time much easier. And Djokovic needs time.
Federer, on the other hand, has a full arsenal of a weapons to hit through Djokovic (great serve and superb forehand), so it's not that much of a mystery why he's been on the losing side five times already. Simply, there are fast court players who are better than him and who are consistent enough to meet him in the finals or in the later stages of the tournament.

I don't think that Djokovic necessarily plays bad, he's simply not allowed to execute his customary gameplan.
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precisely, well put. I would add that I think he played an excellent first set. Fed was just better
 
marc45 said:
weird court, ball seems to hit a spot and stick there...watching it plays tricks with your head...should be a warning on screen..Only Sober
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WTF you mean? I've seen it live quite a few times and the court seems fine to me aside from being a tad to slow for my liking
zagor said:
IMO closer result is due to several factors:

-Novak had more confidence against Fed this time (hence all those 1st serves on BPs)

-Fed's baseline game today isn't as lethal as it was (hence no multiple breaks and Novak dominating longer rallies) but his new all-court game focus resulted in a better service game (hence no BP faced).

-Novak is just more mentally strong this year and is very tough to put away for anyone, you let up a little and he'll come back.

Also, not sure at all he would have beaten Murray today. Murray is a tougher match-up for Novak than Fed these days on the whole and Andy served very well against Fed.
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You had me until this line. In best of 3 at Cinci? Agree that Murray would have had his chances as well - certainly on a fast HC like Cinci -, but let's see him win another before we pronounce him the tougher match-up for Nole in bo3.
Imo, Fed beat a better Novak today than Andy did last week (but I might be biased in this).
 
Steve0904 said:
Yes, I have a feeling he might skip Cincy next year to prep for the Olympics and as a consequence might never play there again. I was going to say that in my earlier post too, but I don't want him to skip it when he's been winning it recently. :) I'd rather he skipped the Rogers Cup again, but maybe that's the source of emotion from Federer.
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the Olympics will effect next Summer for sure, both Toronto before and Cinci after...we'll see where we are after Wimbledon too....within a couple months, Wimbledon, two Masters, Olympics and U.S. Open!
 
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Chanwan said:
WTF you mean? I've seen it live quite a few times and the court seems fine to me aside from being a tad to slow for my liking

You had me until this line. In best of 3 at Cinci? Agree that Murray would have had his chances as well - certainly on a fast HC like Cinci -, but let's see him win another before we pronounce him the tougher match-up for Nole in bo3.
Imo, Fed beat a better Novak today than Andy did last week (but I might be biased in this).
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yep, you can feel the grab...expect a ball to go through, on a good flat hit, or skid through on a good slice, or jump with good top spin...it puts the ball on a tee compared to most courts...of course if you want to watch lightning indoor WTF tennis check out Sampras and Becker from Germany in 96

I've grown to not like the dark theater look too, but I guess that's a difference I can live with
 
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bjsnider said:
This result doesn't surprise me much, given how well Federer plays this event, and how poorly Djokovic's results have been. But it should be noted that Djokovic is no longer playing at the level we saw from October through approximately May, in which he was winning matches easily and looked impregnable. This is the time of year when he typically struggles, for whatever reason. North America doesn't seem to agree with him as much as Asia.
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perhaps, just perhaps too we may be seeing the start of something that it took players years to do with Fed and Nadal, simply deal with the guy competitively, to simply understand what needs to be done athletically and strategically just to hang with him, not to be embarrassed...we'll see, idk...I do know he's pretty much taken over from Fed in the 1 1 2 wins first week of majors guy
 
Starfury said:
Indeed. After the 6-5 in the first set, Federer won 23 out of 27 points to go up a set and a break.
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!!! Did he really win that much in a row? That's insane.
marc45 said:
yep, you can feel the grab...expect a ball to go through, on a good flat hit, or skid through on a good slice, or jump with good top spin...it puts the ball on a tee compared to most courts...off course if you want to watch lightning indoor WTF tennis check out Sampras and Becker from Germany in 96
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Ah yes, I agree with that. Harder to see on camera, but easy to see live - especially from the side
 
Did roger really play that well or was Novak just Off and tired ? and this was fluke ? Can Roger really win US open if he plays like he did today ?
 
Chanwan said:
You had me until this line. In best of 3 at Cinci? Agree that Murray would have had his chances as well - certainly on a fast HC like Cinci -, but let's see him win another before we pronounce him the tougher match-up for Nole in bo3.
Imo, Fed beat a better Novak today than Andy did last week (but I might be biased in this).
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Sure, in BO3 on a fast HC it's still Fed (two wins now this year can't be ignored) but I meant on the whole I felt Murray was giving Novak toughest matches this year aside from Stan and given that historically Cinci court also suits him more than it does Novak I think he would have had a decent chance.

It's hard to say who beat a better Novak as they were different match-ups. Murray was mixing it up and for once using those good hands at the net but there were still many long rallies, Fed on the other hand launched an all out attack and took the match out of Novak's hands so to speak, I felt like it was played on Fed's terms.

Fed impressed me more with his level of play but Murray impressed me because he won a match against Novak that went the distance (to a deciding set), a stage of the match in which everyone this year got dominated by Novak (including Murray himself).
 
zagor said:
Sure, in BO3 on a fast HC it's still Fed (two wins now this year can't be ignored) but I meant on the whole I felt Murray was giving Novak toughest matches this year aside from Stan and given that historically Cinci court also suits him more than it does Novak I think he would have had a decent chance.

It's hard to say who beat a better Novak as they were different match-ups. Murray was mixing it up and for once using those good hands at the net but there were still many long rallies, Fed on the other hand launched an all out attack and took the match out of Novak's hands so to speak, I felt like it was played on Fed's terms.

Fed impressed me more with his level of play but Murray impressed me because he won a match against Novak that went the distance (to a deciding set), a stage of the match in which everyone this year got dominated by Novak (including Murray himself).
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Good points, especially the bold parts.
Not sure Andy's been giving Novak tougher matches this year. Fed's 2-3 and Andy's 1-4 right? One blow-out for Fed (Rome) and a couple of poor deciding sets, but also two wins. Andy's pushed Novak well, but only to go completely away in the decider safe for Montréal.
Anyhow...
 
zagor said:
Sure, he definitely raised his game for the final. He could still win it in the future of course although I think he should skip Canada if he's gonna go for it.
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Definitely agree with the last part, especially when you consider that the Olympics will take place around the same time. I kinda wish he'd skipped Montreal this year although I doubt it would've improved his Cinci performance anyway.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
Definitely agree with the last part, especially when you consider that the Olympics will take place around the same time. I kinda wish he'd skipped Montreal this year although I doubt it would've improved his Cinci performance anyway.
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Did you get to see it? Sorry for your man.
I feel less sure about Novak winning Cinci than about him winning the French. But both are more than 50 % likely to happen imo - FO being 70+ %.
He'll continue his winning ways, glad Fed got to win another Masters and play this great once again.
 
Chanwan said:
Did you get to see it? Sorry for your man.
I feel less sure about Novak winning Cinci than about him winning the French. But both are more than 50 % likely to happen imo - FO being 70+ %.
He'll continue his winning ways, glad Fed got to win another Masters and play this great once again.
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Tbh Chanwan I think there's a slim chance that Djokovic could still win Cinci but he'll have to wait until Federer retires for it to happen.
 
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U.S. Open 2015 QF: Roger Federer (SUI) [2] - Richard Gasquet (FRA) [12]
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