Hitman
Bionic Poster
It does shatter it from the perspective of talking about Djokovic losing matches to Federer, because Federer himself at his peak was owned by his main rival.
I do agree that the question remains unanswered fully.
2015 Djokovic is the best season of the Open Era, better than 1969 Laver
- Thread starter junkieballer
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It does shatter it from the perspective of talking about Djokovic losing matches to Federer, because Federer himself at his peak was owned by his main rival.
I do agree that the question remains unanswered fully.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
This is a very big thing that gets overlooked. Djokovic had a huge amount of top 10 matches in 2015.
junior74
Bionic Poster
This is gold. Gold!
Gastino
Hall of Fame
His main rival wasn't 34 years you're blatanly ignoring the context...everyone knows that 06-08 Nadal was his best period on clay . 2015 Federer is not exactly the best version of federer .
Also what about the losses to karlovic ? to stan in the RG final ? he also had one loss to murray .
The more I speak about the more it appears clear to me . But atill we cant ignore McEnroe's 82-3 season and Laver's 69 CYGS.
Gastino
Hall of Fame
Doesn't answer my question , you can spam as much stats as you want but this ones boils down to a very simple fact : Novak lost 3 times to 34 yedar old fed in his bbest season . Therefore he cannot be better than peak 06 Fed. Their rrecords are very similar but roger edges it .
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I am ignoring context, but you think giving a number for the age explains everything without actually looking at the form of the player. Sorry, that is cherry picking IMO.
How does this look to you?
After RG 2006, basically the half point of the season
Federer, four titles, including one slam, and two masters
Nadal, five titles, including one slam, and two masters
Federer vs Nadal H2H - 0-4
Federer wasn't even the clear best player in the first half of 2006, with less titles and a completely lopsided H2H.
Djokovic first half of the season
One slam, and four masters titles.
Everyone else, Murray - Madrid and Wawrinka RG
Djokovic was by far the best player at any stage of the season, the same cannot be said about Federer after the first week of June.
Gastino
Hall of Fame
really doesnt matter how the season started we're comparing the whole season lol.
We're comparing the 2 of the greatest season they need to be put under microscope im not cherry picking: Losing to nadal is less bad than losing to wawrinka at RG add the murray and karlovic losses and he's clearly behind for me.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
It does matter how the season started....Djokovic undisputed best player throughout the 2015, Federer was not undisputed in 2006 for the first half, in fact many were saying Nadal had the edge with the 4-0 H2H and more titles haul. No player came close to doing that to Djokovic.
Gastino
Hall of Fame
No it's how you finish lol . You can give me a stat of a player where he went 99-00 in the first it wouldnt matter if he loses 10 later on .... trying to parcel the season into bits doeasn't do anything for me lol sorry.
junkieballer
Legend
It can, because 31 > 19
Gastino
Hall of Fame
my stat is better than yours .....actually my stats are better than yours lol
junkieballer
Legend
Your argument is easily debunked:
H2H vs Nadal:
2006 Federer 2-4
2015 Djokovic 4-0
How can 2006 Federer be better than 2015 Djokovic if 2006 Federer was 2-4 vs Nadal while 2015 Djokovic was 4-0 vs Nadal?
Gastino
Hall of Fame
How can 06 Federer be better than 15 Novak ? Simple : the man himself defeated 15 Novak 3 times lmaooo you walked into that one.
PS : he was an old man when he did that, ruining the chance of Novak's season ever being considered for the best.
junkieballer
Legend
But 2015 Djokovic was 4-0 vs Nadal while 2006 Federer was 2-4 vs Nadal.
Why do you look only at h2h that suits you?
Gastino
Hall of Fame
because we're ACTUALLY comparing Novak to Federer lmaoo it's a direct comparison . Your numbers can't save in this situation can they ?
junkieballer
Legend
Whatever. I don't think you understand.
By the way Nole in that period was 4-0 in the biggest matches (WI final, UO final, YEC final, AO semifinal) vs self proclaimed peak Federer, so Fed was not such a big problem for Novak:
"I think I’m a better player now than when I was at 24 because I’ve practiced for another 10 years and I’ve got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “Maybe I don’t have the confidence level that I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it’s ever been, I volley better than I have in the past. I think I’ve had to adapt to a new generation of players again.” (Federer, August 2015)
Hitman
Bionic Poster
LOL - Nope, I'm not accepting your personal subjective opinion as some bullet proof mic drop here. Sorry.
Djokovic was top dog all year in 2015, Federer after RG final wasn't the clear top dog. No player in their best year should at have their position challenged like that.
We can agree to disagree.
Federer blitzed through the field in '17-18 in winning 3 slams in 36-37 years. From '14 on, Federer was 23-2 against Nadal, Murray and Wawrinka. He was bedeviled by Nadal and Murray before '14.
McEnroe played only RG that year and didn't play clay otherwise. From '84 on, Connors didn't win any slam. Lendl won his first slam in '84. Djokovic played the full clay schedule in '15.
Who were McEnroe's chief rivals that year? Connors, Lendl and Wilander. Not as tough as Nadal, Federer, Murray and Wawrinka.
Gastino
Hall of Fame
cutting the season into pieces is what ??? the name of the thread best season anything else worthless in this discussion. seassons are not a subjective opinion , nice try in trying to shift the convo.LOL - Nope, I'm not accepting your personal subjective opinion as some bullet proof mic drop here. Sorry.
Djokovic was top dog all year in 2015, Federer after RG final wasn't the clear top dog. No player in their best year should at have their position challenged like that.
We can agree to disagree.
Nah we agree 06 Fed >>>
/jk
junkieballer
Legend
He also played world team Cup on red clay and forest hills on green clay.
That's a good point by the way, McEnroe on his worst surface only won 2 minor tournaments (one as a team) while Novak won Rome and MonteCarlo.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
cutting the season into pieces is what ??? the name of the thread best season anything else worthless in this discussion. seassons are not a subjective opinion , nice try in trying to shift the convo.
Nah we agree 06 Fed >>>
/jk
You want to talk context, but only on things that suit your narrative. You say to me that losing several matches to a 34 year old player makes a season weaker....and I say to you that if you were not even considered the undisputed best player throughout the entirety of that season, that doesn't make you bullet proof, it in fact makes you look weak that you allowed another player to get that close while you were at your peak.
So this is a case of swings and roundabouts. You are being picky and so am I.
junkieballer
Legend
You can see here that 2015 Nole in the top4 clay tournament had 2 titles and 1 final, while 1984 McEnroe in the top4 clay tournament had 0 titles and 1 final.
Gastino
Hall of Fame
I'm not being picky lol I listed Fed's loses(5) and Novak's losses and came to the natural conclusion that Novak's losses (6) are worse .You want to talk context, but only on things that suit your narrative. You say to me that losing several matches to a 34 year old player makes a season weaker....and I say to you that if you were not even considered the undisputed best player throughout the entirety of that season, that doesn't make you bullet proof, it in fact makes you look weak that you allowed another player to get that close while you were at your peak.
So this is a case of swings and roundabouts. You are being picky and so am I.
Even then since Federer and Novak are being compared here the direct h2h makes lots of sense . I believe I've brought the strongest arguments to the table...to each their own.
BauerAlmeida
Legend
Djokovic made the final of every single big event he played in 2015.
He lost in a MM in the first tournament of the year, then made 15 finals in a row. 13 of those in big events, only two of those finals were in minor events (Dubai and Beijing).
He lost in a MM in the first tournament of the year, then made 15 finals in a row. 13 of those in big events, only two of those finals were in minor events (Dubai and Beijing).
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Well, tell me this, did anyone say anything about any part of Djokovic's anatomy shrinking during 2015, the way Wilander said about Federer in 2006?
Comparing the H2H has its own flaws, as I said, in 2015 Djokovic didn't have a losing H2H against any of his biggest rivals. Federer in 2006 only won 33% percent of his matches against Nadal, including getting his 56 match winning streak on HC broken by him....
But I'm fine to leave it there. There is no perfect season, I think we can agree on that, if you look around long enough, you will see many flaws.
junkieballer
Legend
junior74
Bionic Poster
Yes, Federer had real opponents. 2015 Finishdal - lmao.
junkieballer
Legend
I was just exposing his stupid argument that beating a player in a certain year translates into beating him in another year.
By the way 2006 competition was horrible, Davydenko, Blake and Ljubicic ended in the top5
BauerAlmeida
Legend
Insane really. Only skipped one big event and went 18/18.
I would like to see Federer's number at some point between USO 2004 and AO 2007. He must have had something similar in terms of reaching finals, but not sure if quite as dominant. + I think he skipped more tournaments, IIRC, didn't play Madrid and Paris in either 2004 or 2005, or at least skipped 3 out of 4. Also skipped Hamburg in 2006, Montecarlo in 2005, etc.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I can see is that Djokovic 2011 and 2015 are the only two dominant seasons where the player won at least 90% of his matches on every surface.
Mac didn't quite reach 90% on clay in 1984. Same for Federer in 2006. Laver didn't reach it on hardcourt or clay in 1969. Lendl missed it on grass in 1986. Borg missed it on hardcourt in 1980 and barely in 1979. Connors missed it on clay in 1974.
If we're talking about most dominant season, it's hard to overlook Mac 1984. Just ridiculous dominance and destroying everyone for an entire season. A lot of people will say Laver 1969 is the greatest season because he won the CYGS, however, it wasn't one of the most dominant ones. Borg 1980, Mac 1984, Federer 2006 and Djokovic 2015 were all more dominant.
I see a lot are arguing against Djokovic 2015 being the greatest one but he has the numbers, again, so he has an argument. It's not some far-fetched conclusion. I know it's not fair that Djokovic took it all, lol.
Mac didn't quite reach 90% on clay in 1984. Same for Federer in 2006. Laver didn't reach it on hardcourt or clay in 1969. Lendl missed it on grass in 1986. Borg missed it on hardcourt in 1980 and barely in 1979. Connors missed it on clay in 1974.
If we're talking about most dominant season, it's hard to overlook Mac 1984. Just ridiculous dominance and destroying everyone for an entire season. A lot of people will say Laver 1969 is the greatest season because he won the CYGS, however, it wasn't one of the most dominant ones. Borg 1980, Mac 1984, Federer 2006 and Djokovic 2015 were all more dominant.
I see a lot are arguing against Djokovic 2015 being the greatest one but he has the numbers, again, so he has an argument. It's not some far-fetched conclusion. I know it's not fair that Djokovic took it all, lol.
junior74
Bionic Poster
About as stupid as saying Fed15 was the best Federer because «he said so himself».
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
The favorite myth of Djokovic fans is that Murray was tough competition. They think that if they repeat that a million times, this will somehow become true.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
While this is true to an extent, lets not forget how some Nadal fans like to say Nadal was 3-0 against Murray at Wimbledon and use it to elevate Nadal.
junkieballer
Legend
Outside Slams Murray was very tough competition.
Don't forget that in finals outside Slams he leads the h2h against all Big3:
6-5 vs Djokovic
3-1 vs Nadal
3-2 vs Federer
junkieballer
Legend
Not just that. Other important people said he played his best tennis in 2015. Nadal said Federer played his best tennis in 2017 when Fed was even older than 2015.
Plus in 2014-19 he improved his h2h against all players from Novak's gen except Djokovic.
Federer vs 4-7 years younger Wawrinka, Nadal, Berdych, Cilic, Murray, Del Potro and Tsonga:
2004-09 --> 30-24 (55.6%)
2014-19 --> 41-9 (82.0%)
Martina Navratilova: "I don't know if I have seen a better match from Roger. He served amazingly well, was so relaxed and mixed it up so well with the serve and from the baseline."
Tim Henman: "Roger was incredible. In the context of this match, playing Andy Murray in the semi-final at Wimbledon, I think that is as good as I have ever seen Roger play.
Pat Cash: "People are surprised when I say this but Federer is a better player now than when he was racking up the titles. It's another thing if his body can last over five sets. The way that he is playing he could win the final against Novak Djokovic in straight sets."
junior74
Bionic Poster
Groovy.
Wilander said Djokovic played the highest clay level of all time at RG15. Stan crushed him a few days later.
«Important people» say these kind of things all the time to hype our sport. I am sure you have noticed.
junkieballer
Legend
TMF
Talk Tennis Guru
You see Laver's name on the this?
Point is 2015 Djokovic ranked #6 on all time list and behind other 4 ATG
Of course I do. Take your own advice since you always denied the weak CIE
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junkieballer
Legend
What interest to hype the sport did Nadal have when in 2025 said Federer played his best tennis in 2017?
22-24 years old Federer vs Nadal: 1-6
34-37 years old Federer vs Nadal: 6-1
25-27 years old Federer vs Murray: 1-6
32-34 years old Federer vs Murray: 5-0
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StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
The only situation where this would be reasonable is if someone tries to compare Nadal and Murray on grass.
TMF
Talk Tennis Guru
2006 Federer is more impressive than 2015 Djokovic. More single titles & higher winning percentage.
It's funny Djoko fans attack Roger because he lost to Nadal on clay who is the King of Clay. Guess that makes 2015 Djokovic lost to Karlovic, Wawrinka, Murray has to be really pathetic.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
There’s lies, then damn lies.
And worst of all, statistics.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
He had more smaller titles yea and that's why his win percentage was higher. Djokovic had the higher win percentage where it mattered: over top 10 players.
Djokovic - 86.1%
Federer - 82.6%
Both had 1 loss to a non-top 10 ranked player: #21 Murray (Federer) and #27 Karlovic (Djokovic). However, it's Djokovic's 10 big titles and playing in every big tournament final (except Madrid which he skipped) which makes his season more impressive. Plus he actually won titles on clay unlike Federer.
Djokovic was the favorite in every tournament he entered in 2015 and dominated every surface. Iirc, he's also the first player to win the first 5 big tournaments of the season. I don't even know why they bring in arbitrary rubbish as some serious talking point. Djokovic was 5-3 against Federer in 2015 and beat him in the bulk of their important matches: Wimbledon final, USO final, IW final, Rome final and WTF final. The only meaningful match where he beat Djokovic was the Cincy final. So because Federer beat him when he was 34, that makes his season less impressive? Djokovic at 34 was one match away from a CYGS. That's some serious reaching there.LOL - Nope, I'm not accepting your personal subjective opinion as some bullet proof mic drop here. Sorry.
Djokovic was top dog all year in 2015, Federer after RG final wasn't the clear top dog. No player in their best year should at have their position challenged like that.
We can agree to disagree.
My best answer: while Djokovic was injury-free after '11, Murray and Wawrinka won 2 slams each, while Federer only managed one slam, the '12 WB. Murray, Wawrinka and Federer all had to beat Djokovic en route to their five slams. Just to show you that Djokovic was the player to beat after '11.
At least Murray and Wawrinka won multiple slams, while the fearsome foursome of Roddick, Hewitt, Nalbandian and Davydenko didn't win one single slam after Federer's 1st slam.
In 2006, Federer defeated Baghdatis at AO, Nadal at WB (Nadal had to wait two years before earning his first non-clay slam), and Roddick at US. Wow, tough competition! Grand total of opponents =1 non-clay slam before matches. Yeh TMF, Federer was real impressive in defeating Baghdatis and Roddick.
In contrast, in 2015, Djokovic defeated Murray at AO, and Federer at WB and US.
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We are so persuasive that all Federer fans have turned into Djokovic fans!
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
A fact I'd solely attribute to the lack of a good Nadal. I think 2006 Fed outdid 2015 Djokovic in MC and especially Rome but there's a simple reason why his efforts didn't convert into titles. His RG that year was disappointing (though it's not like Djokovic had a great SF/F either...) but he was very strong in the Masters.
Djokovic on the other hand wasn't particularly special in those matches. MC was a fairly mediocre final from both players, and Djokovic was never really pushed in the Rome final. I'm not convinced he'd beat 2006 Nadal in that form (though I think his level in the RG QF would certainly be enough to make it a close match).
Your other points are mostly well taken but I'll always quibble with the idea that 2015 Djokovic was substantially better than 2006 Fed on clay. I think this situation is a clear shortfall of pure results-based analysis.
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
Laver didn’t even play on hard courts. That, and the participation in AO make the comparison really insufficient.
junkieballer
Legend
junkieballer
Legend
I attribute Federer's 2006 dominance on hardcourt and grass to the lack of a good opponent.
Semifinal/final opponents:
AO: Kiefer, Baghdatis
IW: Srichapan, Blake
Miami: Ferrer, Ljubicic
WI: Bjorkaman, Nadal in his first grass final
Canada: Gonzalez, Gasquet
Madrid: Nalbandian, Gonzalez
UO: Davydenko, Roddick
YEC: Nadal in his first YEC semifinal, Blake
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