Cortana
Legend
But would he be a Tier 1 ATG that way?
2015 Monte-Carlo Rolex Masters Final - Novak Djokovic [1] vs. Tomas Berdych [6]
- Thread starter The Green Mile
- Start date
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
I don't think it was complacency today, it was a bit of tiredness after the highly intense (emotionally and mentally) victory over Nadal. Berd had an extra freshness edge with the Raonic retirement and playing the first semi on Saturday. So, the lapse was perfectly understandable for me. I'm just very happy he kept it together and got the win in the end. It would have been very depressing if he had done all the hard work of finding a way against clay king only to lose to the other guy in final simply due to other guy's extra freshness. Djoko deserved the win after his masterful perf vs Nadal and quite fairly, he got it. In this particular case, that was all that mattered and as Djoko said in his interview "sometimes, you have to win ugly". So be it and so worth it when that win means breaking a record on top. Now he has some time to rest and he needed that badly (with only 1 week between Miami and 1st clay event)
About the clay season in general, and from Djoko's standpoint, I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, if he managed the clay sweep right after the hard sweep, it would be absolutely mind blowing, almost inhuman, but of course attempting that would entail a huge risk of crashing early at RG. Then again, he could do badly in Rome and Madrid and STILL crash at RG. Sometimes, playing it safe is not the answer. If you play not to lose, you end up not winning.
Ultimately, Djoko is the only one who can feel his mental and physical limitations. If he thinks he feels fine and he can continue on a roll, great. I hope that if he feels worn out or spent in any way, he will make the right decision and not risk injury or exhaustion before the big one. He is really the only one who can make that call and he's probably experienced enough at this point to make it wisely.
Sampras is so is Borg.
Cortana
Legend
Why? Is the competition weaker than in GS tournaments?
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
He's just trolling. Of course they are tier 1. Tier 1 and tier 2 are very well defined by the ATP ranking system.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
I think so. 10 majors + at least 4 WTFs(and quite possibly more), 23 Masters 1000s and counting, 4 YE#1 and close to 200 weeks at the top by the end of 2015 would place him in that bracket imo.
Gary Duane
Talk Tennis Guru
Iinsideguy, you are arguing with the wrong person. I explained AngieB's thinking. There are a lot of people who see it her way, including some former players.
Yes, if he continues winning 2 majors a year he will be at 14 in about 3 years. Right?
There is no doubt at all in my mind that he is the best player in the world right now. That's obvious, right? I'm only saying that he has to stay there, and he has to win a lot of slams very soon because he is getting older.
Keep in mind that Laver won the CYGS at nearly age 31. I don't think that's going to happen again (I can give you my reasons for this if you are interested), but Novak has been an anomaly, peaking later. The man is in incredible condition. I think it is POSSIBLE for him to get to nearly 14, and if he does I would PERSONALLY put his superb M1000 record into the equation.
Don't mistake me for a hater. I loved the way he played yesterday against Nadal. But I don't like at all the way he played today. That's the whole thing to me. When he plays as he did today, to me he turns into almost a clone of Lendl. Not as a person, but as a player. I don't like Machine Novak. I like creative Novak, the guy I saw yesterday.
Gary Duane
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm sure he will get to 10 slams. As for tiers, I think that gets awfully complicated. To me anyone who gets 3 slams in a year has played tier 1 tennis for at least a year. What Novak is missing is more dominant slams years, 2 or more. That's why I'm waiting to see what happens this year. If he were to get 3 slams, doesn't that make him the only open era player to do that twice, other than Fed? With only Fed doing it three times?
I think there is probably someone I am forgetting, but another 3 year slam puts him in a very powerful position. Off the top of my head I remember 3 slams in a year to be very rare for men.
Plus if he does that, thereby getting to 10 slams this year, I think he will be in a very serious race along the very best.
What do you think?
Right now expectations are through the roof. Even IF he wins in Paris and loses Wimby people will be saying negative things. If the debate here is he level with Nadal or Sampras yet then of course he is not. But like you said Nadal peaked early. Joker is peaking later. What is in store for the future I dont know. But if he can pull two majors this year regardless of where I think thats freaking great. I guess I am not looking at who is all time what. Joker is going to go down as better than Andre or Lendl at this point barring an all time collapse. And hell who knows it could happen. Wilander won three slams in a year then vanished. I am just enjoying it for what it is right now.
D
Deleted member 688153
Guest
Wimbledon is usually the best, obviously, but in Novak's case it's obvious that RG would be far more significant.
One of Federer's main selling points is that he is The Man for All Surfaces.
Nadal has all four too.
Novak would do well to join them in this exclusive club.
Also congratulations to Novak and his fans (you) for the MC win.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Whatever you want to call them, they are still 'big' titles because they are mandatory for all the top players (with 1 or 2 exceptions) and their draws are guaranteed to have most of them present.
Slams, WTF, Masters and the Olympics all fall into this category ranked 1,2,3 and 4.
Anything below Masters level is medium (500 level) to small (250 level) because none of these are guaranteed to have more than 1 top 5 player present, although this can occur from time to time.
Last edited:
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Wimbledon is usually the best, obviously, but in Novak's case it's obvious that RG would be far more significant.
One of Federer's main selling points is that he is The Man for All Surfaces.
Nadal has all four too.
Novak would do well to join them in this exclusive club.
Also congratulations to Novak and his fans (you) for the MC win.
Don't get me wrong - if someone told me Novak wasn't gonna win RG this year I'd be gutted.:sad: But if you then told me he'd still go on to win Wimbledon and the USO I'd be dancing in the street! :smile:
Thanks for the congrats as well. :wink:
Gary Duane
Talk Tennis Guru
You will never see me writing these things:
1. Novak is not winning the CYGS this year.
2. Novak will never win more than X number of slams.
3. Novak is only a tier 2 player.
I don't like having to eat crow.
I'm saying this: getting 3 slams in a year is a rare thing in men's tennis. But it has been done. No one expected Fed to do it three times.
In 2005 he dropped to 2 slams and did not make the finals again. When he only won one slam in 2008, I'm sure people said, "That's it." Then he won 2 more the next year.
The only thing I know for sure about these great players is what they have already done, not what they will do.
The only thing I feel pretty confident about is Novak's getting to 10 or more slams. I'll be shocked if this does not happen. But I won't be shocked if he wins more.
You will never see me writing these things:
1. Novak is not winning the CYGS this year.
2. Novak will never win more than X number of slams.
3. Novak is only a tier 2 player.
I don't like having to eat crow.
I'm saying this: getting 3 slams in a year is a rare thing in men's tennis. But it has been done. No one expected Fed to do it three times.
In 2005 he dropped to 2 slams and did not make the finals again. When he only won one slam in 2008, I'm sure people said, "That's it." Then he won 2 more the next year.
The only thing I know for sure about these great players is what they have already done, not what they will do.
The only thing I feel pretty confident about is Novak's getting to 10 or more slams. I'll be shocked if this does not happen. But I won't be shocked if he wins more.
I guess I just dont look at things like this to much. I am enjoying the ride. Would love to see him win a cygs or 14 majors or whatever. But you know this as well as I even if he does there will be people on this board saying he isnt this or he isnt that or whatever. If he gets to something like 12 or 13 majors then I can see talking about can he get to 17? But not now. There will always be those who dont want him to or say he isnt as good even if he does. The whole Serena thing is a perfect example. Watch people declare her dead if she loses in Paris this year even if she has lost many times there before. What I always notice is people on these boards say ok but.......... Some people are never happy. When and if Serena wins 23 slams this board will be filled with people saying ok but........ Hell there is already a post on this board about can Novak win Madrid? LOL. If he gets smoked in the first or second round in Madrid people will be saying oh he cant win RG or whatever. I just find what the dude is doing now incredible. Other than losing to Dr. Evil he isnt getting beat by anybody outside the top 4 hardly ever. When he loses he loses to the best. He isnt getting beat by any journeymen or going out early anywhere. Hell thats not the case just this year. This has been the case for years now.
Antonio Puente
Hall of Fame
Djoker has his one slam and string of Masters. Like clockwork, frisbee season is coming up.
Noleberic123
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic has one grand slam and 3 masters titles. This is already as good as his 2013 season
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Djokovic has one grand slam and 3 masters titles. This is already as good as his 2013 season
And we're still only in April!
SpicyCurry1990
Hall of Fame
Djokovic has one grand slam and 3 masters titles. This is already as good as his 2013 season
Well not quite, he also won the WTF in 2013 and SF/F/F in the 3 other slams count for something too
Last edited:
SpicyCurry1990
Hall of Fame
3-slam+ years in open era:
69 Laver - 4
74 Connors - 3
88 Wilander - 3
04, 06, 07 Federer - 3
10 Nadal - 3
11 Djokovic - 3
So yes, no one has had multiple besides Federer.
However, you could argue several 2 slam seasons like Borg 79, Borg 80, McEnroe 84, Lendl 86 that included 2 of FO/USO/Wimb + the World Tour Finals as 3 Major years.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
I'd rather get a frisbee than be sent packing in the early rounds by guys ranked 100+
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
They are big titles but they should not be lumped together with slams and WTF titles in one big tier 1 category. That is deceiving. Nothing has the prestige level/attention from press and public/ranking points that a slam has. WTF is next and Masters 1000s are third. You lump them all together to suit your agenda. Your transparency is obvious.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
No, ATP lump them together as the main events and limits the number of 250 and 500 you can count in your ranking.They are big titles but they should not be lumped together with slams and WTF titles in one big tier 1 category. That is deceiving. Nothing has the prestige level/attention from press and public/ranking points that a slam has. WTF is next and Masters 1000s are third. You lump them all together to suit your agenda. Your transparency is obvious.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Yeah Berd played really well. I thought the quality of the tennis was rather high considering the horrendous conditions in which most of the match was played.
ROTFLMAO!!!! Dat dere is what we calls a "bone crushing rejoinder."
uscwang
Hall of Fame
Since the birth of their son in late October 2014, Novak has achieved:
6 Titles (Paris, WTF, AO, IW, Miami, MC) worth 7500 pts, which by itself could rank him #2 after Fed who has about 8000 pts;
40-2 W-L record;
12 bagels and 12 breadsticks total;
7 bagels to top 10 players (Nishikori #5, Stan and Stan #4, Murray and Murray #6/4, Berdych #8, and Cilic #10).
19-1 against top 10 players.
Today's 3rd set had "bakery" written all over it. Credit to Berdy for escaping after stepping into the bakery already. That Novak bagels a Top 10 players 35% of the time is quite scary.
Honor list of Top 10 players Novak hasn't bagelled recently:
Federer: good serve
Nadal: only played once on clay
Ferrer: high fighting spirit
Raonic: good serve.
6 Titles (Paris, WTF, AO, IW, Miami, MC) worth 7500 pts, which by itself could rank him #2 after Fed who has about 8000 pts;
40-2 W-L record;
12 bagels and 12 breadsticks total;
7 bagels to top 10 players (Nishikori #5, Stan and Stan #4, Murray and Murray #6/4, Berdych #8, and Cilic #10).
19-1 against top 10 players.
Today's 3rd set had "bakery" written all over it. Credit to Berdy for escaping after stepping into the bakery already. That Novak bagels a Top 10 players 35% of the time is quite scary.
Honor list of Top 10 players Novak hasn't bagelled recently:
Federer: good serve
Nadal: only played once on clay
Ferrer: high fighting spirit
Raonic: good serve.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think that he'd bagel John Isner. Didn't Isner beat him a few years ago in a US tournament?
Actually, has anyone ever bageled Isner?
Supertegwyn
Hall of Fame
I think he was bagelled after his 2011 Wimbledon marathon in the next round. Serves him right for letting that match go on for so long.
EDIT: Oh teheh I made a pun
Last edited:
The Green Mile
Bionic Poster
Yep. The only time he has ever gotten bageled.
uscwang
Hall of Fame
Indeed, though it was 2010. He probably needed that bagel for energy.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Incredible to think that Novak has won 34 titles since 2011 and 28 of those have been Masters 1000s and above(18 Masters, 7 slams, 3 WTFs). Federer, Nadal and Murray between them have won 27! :shock::shock:
Supertegwyn
Hall of Fame
Yeah no sorry it was 2010.
Gary Duane
Talk Tennis Guru
I would always rate slams differently for Connors/Borg generation. Connors did not even have a chance at a grand slam in 1974 because of being prevented by playing the FO.
But 3 slams in a year is a very unusual thing, so if Novak does it this year, he will have done something else very special by doing it twice.
Gary Duane
Talk Tennis Guru
Little people are always the nastiest. You won't hear any top tennis players trashing Novak.
Someone posted stats the other day showing that the average age for the top 20 has gone up from 24 years old to over 29 years old. If the best players in the world are going to hang on for a few more years playing at peak level or close to it, everything will change and it is happening right now.
I don't like the way Novak played today. It was a kind of aggressive defense. He came to the net 4 times in a three sets. I don't want that kind of tennis to dominate.
But the way he played yesterday against Nadal was very exciting. I want to see more of that!
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Well it is better that he chose to play a worse match here against Berdych. Maybe he will play well at RG now that the bad match has been passed.
D
Deleted member 77403
Guest
This performance makes me wonder about if it is good for Djokovic to face Nadal in any other round other than the final. It seemed he was so amped and jacked up for the semi final showdown, that mentally and emotionally he came out flat in the final against Berdych, and could have paid heavily for it. I think he found it difficult to get over it, and know he still had another match to play, sure he got into it by the third set...but that is something that does concern me a little about him. For him, beating Nadal equals getting the trophy, if he manages to do it in semi final, will he not be fully prepared for the final? Maybe having Federer in the final will be what he needs then, if that is the case...someone who gets him fired up.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
It is understandable. He probably decided to loosen up knowing that he already defeated the toughest opponent in his draw.
He knew that he owns Berdych so was thinking he didn't exactly need an extra gear to beat him.
As long as he plays well against the big boys that's all that matters.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Arguable. Plays aim to peak at the slams not the masters and there's the fact 7 rounds > 5. Not to mention theoretically you could have a monster draw at a 500 series, that still doesn't make it a title on the same tier as a masters...
:lol:
Slams are worth twice as many points as masters and there's another event that fits right between them. Not to mention the huge gulf in prestige between them. You're right the points do define the tiers, how can masters be the same tier as slams with a two fold gap between them...
You have an agenda to up the value of masters. You're transparent.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 77403
Guest
The thing is, he knows as long as Nadal, Federer or Murray are still in a tournament, he can't get complacent. Yesterday, he came out flat, and Berdych played inspired stufff....perfect cocktail for an upset. Djokovic managed to steady the ship, but he needs to learn from it, should he have it again in RG and Nadal is already out.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
It is true. But now at M-C it was only his pigeon Berdych. No Murray or Federer.
Even though his game might now work, Novak can stil rely on defence and it was enough to get him to the finish line against Berdych.
D
Deleted member 77403
Guest
I almost feel that he might kind of need Federer to go deep on the other side of the draw, should he draw Nadal in the semis...this way, he knows that his biggest rivals are still there, and beating Nadal won't be the be all end all of his RG campaign.
Reminds of the sick crazy pressure that Federer had to face when Nadal lost early in RG 09. He almost lost to Haas. Yes, different type of pressure, but the effect was still the same, he struggled to deal with it at the start.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
So you think in 2009 if Djokovic had gotten though to the end Fed wouldn't have struggled like he did?
D
Deleted member 77403
Guest
I think it is a possibility. Up until RG, Nadal and Djokovic were the two big names on the clay that year, and many predicted another showdown at RG. Within 24 hours of each other, both players are eliminated and all of sudden immense pressure on Federer. The entire dynamics of RG 2009 changed within a day. Had possibly Djokovic stayed in the event, then Federer would still be working up towards that scheduled semi final, knowing that is still a major hurdle that can go against him.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes. I think this is the way to go. No reason to go to Madrid at all IMO. Especially with the crowd history he has there.
junior74
Bionic Poster
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Berdych actually troubled Djoko with his returns much more than Nadal did (bar that 4-3 game in 1st set). How weird is that to think of Berd as a more dangerous returner on clay than Nadal!!
As weird as seeing Ferrer, Granollers and Paire posting better stats on the return than Nadal :shock:
Djoko is #1 so far with a whopping 46% return games won in M-C. Those are classic Nadalian numbers usually. The highest Nadal has ever gone in a season is a mesmerizing 50%. He's down to 37% at the moment.
As weird as seeing Ferrer, Granollers and Paire posting better stats on the return than Nadal :shock:
Djoko is #1 so far with a whopping 46% return games won in M-C. Those are classic Nadalian numbers usually. The highest Nadal has ever gone in a season is a mesmerizing 50%. He's down to 37% at the moment.
junior74
Bionic Poster
Not weird at all. Berdych returns were far less neutral than Nadals (more neutral in the third, when Novak made 75% 1st serves - great stuff.
Berdych can return agressively from both wings, while Nadal's BH return is neutral to a large extent. 46% return games won is just crazy...
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
This is unchartered territory for Djoko. All previous years, his return stats on clay averaged the mid-thirties. He had never even hit 40. 46% is what Nadal got in 2005 when he won 8 events on clay. There are 2 seasons when Nadal got even higher: 2012: 47% and 2008: 51% (!!!)
If Djoko cannot win RG with stats like that, he can hang his racquet and stop trying. It's as if Djoko and Nadal had switched identities. Djoko with the insanely high return % and Nadal in the mid-thirties.
What gives?
I think Djoko is using drop shots much more now and that may be the key to the difference.
ETA: I should add that it is the first time Djoko's return stats are higher than Nadal's who dominated clay return stats in all previous years (over the field, not just Djoko)
Actually, the serve stats are interesting too. Djoko is usually between 81 and 85% service games won on clay, Nadal between 83 and 87 (2015 included). There are only 2 seasons when Djoko got higher. Guess which ones? 2011 and 2015: 88% (There are also 3 seasons when Djoko was lower than 80: his first 2: 2006 and 2007 + 2010). Nadal got his highest winning % of service games in 2010: 91%, the year when he won the clay sweep, no surprise there.
Last edited:
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
