Yeah at least Pennetta is a seeded player and has had some hardcourt success. But I still don't see her getting anywhere in an alternate universe where the WTA didn't consist of Serena and the forty headcases with strapped thighs.
2015 US Open Women's QF: Petra Kvitova[5] vs. Flavia Pennetta[26]
- Thread starter Down_the_line
- Start date
mattosgrant
Banned
It is funny to see people like veroniquem mention things like "state of the womens tour." The womens tour even today is far deeper than it ever was before say 1999. It is obvious som people have some crazy fantasies about the womens game being something that it never was in the past. BTW this is how the last "Grand Slam" was won:
1988 Australian Open- Graf defeats 34 year old Evert in 2nd last year on tour.
1988 French Open- Graf beats doubles player Natalia Zvereva 6-0, 6-0 in a record 32 minutes.
1988 Wimbledon- Graf defeats 32 year old Navratilova with knee problems that would soon require surgery.
1988 U.S Open- Graf plays Sabatini, the women who got only 3 slam finals and 1 slam title over an astonishing 18 slam semis.
Some of the rallies in this Azarenka-Halep match are astonishing. Very high quality, but Azarenka is a bit off today. She will need to pick it up to win as Halep really brought her A-game today.
1988 Australian Open- Graf defeats 34 year old Evert in 2nd last year on tour.
1988 French Open- Graf beats doubles player Natalia Zvereva 6-0, 6-0 in a record 32 minutes.
1988 Wimbledon- Graf defeats 32 year old Navratilova with knee problems that would soon require surgery.
1988 U.S Open- Graf plays Sabatini, the women who got only 3 slam finals and 1 slam title over an astonishing 18 slam semis.
Some of the rallies in this Azarenka-Halep match are astonishing. Very high quality, but Azarenka is a bit off today. She will need to pick it up to win as Halep really brought her A-game today.
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
To be honest, I don't think there's a huge gulf between Vika's and Petra's accomplishments. Most people wouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that they'd prefer Vika's career over Petra's as it stands. And there is no more truth in basing the potential of a given player or the danger he/she represents on past accomplishments (Vika winning two Slams in the past) than there is in basing it on current form or any other factor that might be relevant. What I mean is "because she's done it before" is no indication that she'll do it again, it's just an indication that she's done it before.
mattosgrant
Banned
I would probably rather Petra's career to be honest. 2 Wimbledons > 2 Australian Opens. YEC title. For me Kvitova is the true #1 of 2011 and she swept all the Player of Year awards. Azarenka ended 2012 #1 on the computer and while it wasn't a farce that means nothing like Wozniacki in 2011, Serena also swept the Player of Year awards for 2012 as Petra did for 2011. So Petra in reality was acknowledged as best in 2011, while Azarenka was not, so I take that over the (bogus often in the WTA) official rank and say Kvitova was the #1 of 2011 and Serena was the #1 of 2012. So at this point I would rather Petra's career.
Azarenka is the better player though IMO. I could see both ending with 5-6 slams eventually, but both will only start piling them up when Serena fades in a couple years or so.
Azarenka is the better player though IMO. I could see both ending with 5-6 slams eventually, but both will only start piling them up when Serena fades in a couple years or so.
No need to compare eras. Just look at simultaneous tournaments.
Number of top ten seeds losing in the first two rounds
AO: 0 ATP / 3 WTA
FO: 1 ATP / 3 WTA
WIM: 3 ATP / 4 WTA
USO: 1 ATP / 7 WTA
Average Seeding of QF players
AO: 4.86 (1 unseeded) ATP / 7.43 (1 unseeded) WTA
FO: 5.75 (0 unseeded) ATP / 14.43 (1 unseeded) WTA
WIM: 7.43 (1 unseeded) ATP / 13.86 (1 unseeded) WTA
USO: 10.13 (1 unseeded) ATP / 12.83 (2 unseeded) WTA
If you'd remove Serena and Djokovic as respective #1, the numbers for the WTA would look even worse in comparison.
And it's not like 2015 is a fluke year. There's a reason why even the experts (very politely) say that during the first week, the WTA is more interesting, while in the second week the ATP takes over.
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donquijote
G.O.A.T.
Here are some of Serena's opponents in GS finals. Last two are in 2015.
Do they not spoil her calendar year GS? Graf at least played against Evert, Navratilova and Sabatini, all GS winners.
Winner 2010 Wimbledon (4) Grass
Vera Zvonareva 6–3, 6–2Winner 2012 Wimbledon (5) Grass
Agnieszka Radwańska 6–1, 5–7, 6–2Winner 2014 US Open (6) Hard
Caroline Wozniacki 6–3, 6–3Winner 2015 French Open (3) Clay
Lucie Šafářová 6–3, 6–7(2–7), 6–2Winner 2015 Wimbledon (6) Grass
Garbiñe Muguruza 6–4, 6–4
Vanhool
Hall of Fame
Can we just give the era comparisons a rest for once? That horse has been flogged to death 5 times over already. Neither path was especially difficult, but it is still a great accomplishment anyway. If it wasn't, it would happen all the time in the "weak mug clown era" that has existed forever in the "typical wta lol*"
*heavy bitter sarcasm
*heavy bitter sarcasm
As I said two posts ago, you don't need to compare different eras, you just have to compare the two tours. I'm truly and utterly sorry if reality has an anti-WTA bias...
Vanhool
Hall of Fame
Okily dokily. Have a nice day..
mattosgrant
Banned
Here are some of Serena's opponents in GS finals. Last two are in 2015.
Do they not spoil her calendar year GS? Graf at least played against Evert, Navratilova and Sabatini, all GS winners.
Winner 2010 Wimbledon (4) Grass
Winner 2012 Wimbledon (5) Grass
Winner 2014 US Open (6) Hard
Winner 2015 French Open (3) Clay
Winner 2015 Wimbledon (6) Grass
Those players in their prime and up and coming are probably tougher than playing a 34 year old way past her prime Evert (keep in mind nobody was playing their best at this age like Serena so she is not a barometer), doubles player Zvereva who can only last 30 minutes in a slam final vs Graf, an old and injured Navratilova who lost 4 times that very year to Zvereva so you cant say she was at that point any better than Zvereva who was always beating her. Sabatini winning only 1 slam after reaching 18 semis is kind of a joke, while some of those you mentioned are young and still could achieve more.
So in no way do Serena's opponents spoil her Calendar Year Grand Slam. Her draw to this U.S Open title is also more impressive than any draw Graf had in 88, regardless who she plays in the final. Graf of 88 would be hard pressed to survive Keys and Venus back to back how they played.
A Grand Slam is incredibly hard to manage period. That is all there is to it. Womens tennis is never as competitive as the mens usually is (although the mens currently isn't top in that regard either) and today is atleast as competitive as it usually is.
mattosgrant
Banned
Well yes that isn't exactly a secret though. Mens tennis has always been more competitive at the top level than womens. Which is kind of my point anyway. That is why 6 women have more slams than Federer's mens record (atleast 1 reason). However some are saying Serena has it easy compared to Graf, Navratilova, Evert, which is a joke.
Zetty
Hall of Fame
Nowhere close?! Rafa won three slams in 2010 and 2013, Fed in 2004, 2006, 2007, and Djokovic in 2011. Seemed a lot more likely than the women's tour until just this year dude...and actually it seemed like Djokovic would do it this year after he trounced Nadal at the French. I tells ya, some people just throw out hyperbole.
Down_the_line
G.O.A.T.
Hate to nitpick but Nadal won 2 in 2013. Your point stands though.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
The difference is that Vika displayed stroger results at majors (winning two back to back and being a finalist elsewhere) than Kvitova, who had largely been an inconsistent washout at every major other than those spaced-apart Wimbledon titles. For those who like to count runner-up or late stage finishes as part of the player file (I am content to just use the majors titles), then between the two, who has been more of a tour force at the majors?
Kvitova's highest level at the majors:
AO -SF 2012
FO- SF 2012
W- WINNER 2011, 2014
USO- QF 2015
Vika's highest level at the majors:
AO - WINNER 2012, 2013
FO - SF 2013
W - SF 2011, 2012
USO - FINALIST 2012, 2013
Even if we use my standard--majors victories only--they are tied, but Vika was strong enough to defend her title. Kvitova simply did not have that kind of consistent game.
Kvitova needs more than Serena to fade before she can pile up majors. Should she avoid Pennetta? How about Sharapova, who beat her at the AO and FO?
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
My main point was that we don't necessarily have to expect more from Azarenka in a quarterfinal because she has won two Slams in the past than from Halep who has won zero so far. And I've been proven right. In this match, the past meant absolutely nothing.
Aussie Darcy
Bionic Poster
Really? I call total BS. Look at today. We had Pennetta upset a 2 time slam champ and reach the SF in 3 sets. We had a slam champion (Vika) against world number 2 Halep in a tight 3 set match.
What did we have on the ATP tour today? Stan crush Anderson 6-4 6-4 6-0. Fed crush Gasquet 6-3 6-3 6-1.
Two boring straightforward easy matches compared to two competitive, thrilling matches.
Week 2 is ATP week? Bull..
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
Not a big deal, but Evert was 33 in 1988 and Navratilova was 31. Their birthdays are both at the end of the year.
Take a dictionary and look up "anecdotal evidence"
donquijote
G.O.A.T.
As much as I hate Vika and her shreiking, she is a more consistent player than Petra. That said, Petra is the one with more talent who couldn't convert the potential into success. Petra had major issues with health. She had back injury in 2013 when she missed the opportunity to become No.1. She has asthma as we all know and now she has mono disease both make her tired. Azarenka had an injury and personal issues last year and she couldn't get back to her 100% form yet and likely will never do with that kind of body. I still have high expectations on Petra. She needs to add maybe more serve/volley to her repertoire and that will be difficult to beat in women's tennis. She's been with the same coach last 16 years or so but maybe she can add someone to the team who will help her learn new tricks. She still can be the No.1.
donquijote
G.O.A.T.
A thrilling match is good when there is quality in it. I enjoyed watching Cetkovska-Wozniacki match (probably because the player with better skills won at the end) but you can't compare those WTA matches with the ones like Djokovic/Federer/Nadal finals. Nobody really watches women's finals cause they're usually boring.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Venus has a far more debilitating disease in Sjogren's, and is older than Kvitova, yet she can still go deep in majors and fight off younger players. Kvitova has always struggled with fitness issues, and was fatigued in years before she contracted mono.
What "kind of body" is that?
Yesterday, May Jo Fernandez observed Vika is just a step away from returning to her form, and if she's already playing as well as seen at Wimbledon, FO and USO this year, it is only logical to conclude she will be a greater force once fully recovered.
Kvitova--who claimed Navratilova as her favorite player/inspiration the year she won her 1st major--seemed like she incorporated more volleying in her game, but she has largely abandoned that in favor of Davenport-esque smacking cross court shots. The last player to effectively win a major with a S&V-heavy game was Schiavone.
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