2016 Miami Open ATP World Tour Masters 1000 - Round 4 Djokovic vs. Thiem

[mellowyellow]

All I said is that Thiem is not the next big thing. Someone else brought in Djokovic in the discussion.

You kept comparing his age and all time great champions... Nobody else did, only you.

 

[ScentOfDefeat]

I think people are pinning on Djokovic (solely) something that's been in the making for at least 10 years, and which has benefited not only Djokovic, but also Federer and Nadal. The fact that it's the first time in the history of professional tennis that an elite has been able to develop their game for an extended period of time with no changes in technology (the changes were made before or as they were growing up and adapting to them). Think about it: with graphite came new players that could hit the previous generation off the court, with poly came new players that could easily overtake past champions ... now, the only thing we have is a mature elite that can't be overthrown by new generations simply because the new generation isn't bringing anything new with them that can revolutionize the game (and to which they've become accustomed). Not only do the top players play the exact same game as their new challengers, they've also played it for longer, at a higher level and under more pressure. And because the kind of game that's played today seems to favor older players over younger ones, it adds to the huge gulf that's already there.

 

[NextGeneration]

Wasn't able to see the match but it looks like Thiem had plenty of opportunities and just couldn't convert. Idk how they both played but it seems like a match on clay could get very interesting. Looking forward to it at one of the clay masters hopefully

Better than I expected honestly. Didn't think Thiem would have this many opportunities on hard

 

[Meles]

Djokovic had already won a slam and many Masters 1000s and he had Federer, Nadal and Murray around at the time. There is no comparison between Djokovic and Thiem at the same age.

Still in 2010, no top ten wins until he beat Fed in US Open semi. Verdasco beat him twice. You're right no comparison at this age.

 

[NoleFam]

All I said is that Thiem is not the next big thing. Someone else brought in Djokovic in the discussion.

I took a nap and came back to this thread and you are still repeating the same things you were before I left. Give the kid a break. He has nothing to be ashamed of today. You are sitting here comparing him to Djokovic and Nadal. LOL. Djokovic and Nadal are in the top 5 or 6 in the history of men's tennis and you think it is so easy to come knock Djokovic off his stride while he in the prime of his career? None of these guys will do what Nadal and Djokovic did in their careers so don't compare any of them to those two. That is a rare occurrence and they were winning Slams at 19 and 20 which makes your argument look silly. Thiem played great today and I look forward to his future because I know he will be a champ.

 

[Meles]

I think people are pinning on Djokovic (solely) something that's been in the making for at least 10 years, and which has benefited not only Djokovic, but also Federer and Nadal. The fact that it's the first time in the history of professional tennis that an elite has been able to develop their game for an extended period of time with no changes in technology (the changes were made before or as they were growing up and adapting to them). Think about it: with graphite came new players that could hit the previous generation off the court, with poly came new players that could easily overtake past champions ... now, the only thing we have is a mature elite that can't be overthrown by new generations simply because the new generation isn't bringing anything new with them that can revolutionize the game (and to which they've become accustomed). Not only do the top players play the exact same game as their new challengers, they've also played it for longer, at a higher level and under more pressure. And because the kind of game that's played today seems to favor older players over younger ones, it adds to the huge gulf that's already there.

Brilliant.

 

[NoleFam]

I think people are pinning on Djokovic (solely) something that's been in the making for at least 10 years, and which has benefited not only Djokovic, but also Federer and Nadal. The fact that it's the first time in the history of professional tennis that an elite has been able to develop their game for an extended period of time with no changes in technology (the changes were made before or as they were growing up and adapting to them). Think about it: with graphite came new players that could hit the previous generation off the court, with poly came new players that could easily overtake past champions ... now, the only thing we have is a mature elite that can't be overthrown by new generations simply because the new generation isn't bringing anything new with them that can revolutionize the game (and to which they've become accustomed). Not only do the top players play the exact same game as their new challengers, they've also played it for longer, at a higher level and under more pressure. And because the kind of game that's played today seems to favor older players over younger ones, it adds to the huge gulf that's already there.

This is a great post and very true. Great perspective.

 

[bilboa]

Thiem played great and cudos to him - definitely Top 10 material - we just have to seem him continue playing at this level.
In a way similar to Stan, wide swings lots of power on both ends but need time.

Speed/power play takes time from him - if you watch the Tsonga match you'll see what a power player with a fast can do to his game.

Djokovic played average and too passive (similar to FO final), plus serve was subpar.

Entertaining match - we'll see more of these between these 2 in the future I hope

 

[Druss]

Wow, nearly 900 posts for a Masters 4R match thread. Must've been a lot of Fed fans hoping that Thiem would pull off the upset.

Or maybe a lot of Djokovic fans on here hoping that Thiem is the next big thing to lay claims that this is a strong era

 

[Meles]

Wasn't able to see the match but it looks like Thiem had plenty of opportunities and just couldn't convert. Idk how they both played but it seems like a match on clay could get very interesting. Looking forward to it at one of the clay masters hopefully

Better than I expected honestly. Didn't think Thiem would have this many opportunities on hard

Wow. Try to get replay.
This looks to be 7 minutes of highlights from the final game of the match.

Hoping they play in all of the clay masters.

 

[fednad]

It's an obvious sign of the true KING. Norwegian composers Satyricon had no knowledge of that as of yet, when they made up this brilliant song to herald that true KING! Djokovic, quite a few years ago,

KING! KING! KING!

That looks more like a witch....insult to Posseur !

 

[okdude1992]

@Meles @Chanwan
@stringertom
@Gary Duane

Thiem had 15 break points across 6 unique service games. He won 1 of those, wasting 14 BPs in the 5 lost games.

Djokovic had 6 break points across 6 unique service games. He won 3 of those, wasting 3 BPs in the 3 lost games.

Djokovic won 42% of non-BPs (22/53). Thiem won 48% of non-BPs (42/87).

USO 2015 final, anyone?

Definitely thought of that, and your thread while watching the match

 

[Chanwan]

I never care about exceptions. Maybe because they are just that - exceptions.

then you shouldn't deal in absolutes, when you dish out your verdicts
especially when the exceptions are quite numerous
Also, to me Fedalovic are all the definition of exceptions - they stand out to the rest. You don't care about the Big 3? ;-)

 

[Chanwan]

If there is a bet on Berdych beating Djoko I'm in folks. I did read somewhere that lightning can strike twice in the same place!

You want to bet on Birdman?
Apparently @Djoko2011 doesn't quite after all. Know this though - lightning hasn't struck once on HC in 19 meetings so far.

 

[Chanwan]

Definitely thought of that, and your thread while watching the match

@falstaff78
iirc, it was actually much worse in the US Open. Yesterday, both Thiem and Djoko had BP's in 6 unique service games - Djoko just actually converted in half of the games he had a BP, while Thiem had to wait on a DF to "convert" his lone one.

Fed had 20 BP's in 9 unique games, converted in a mere 3 of them, while Djoko converted in each and every single one of the 4 games he had a mere 5 BP chances in.
Now there's a true horror show, if I ever saw one...

 

[junior74]

Looks like the entire tour, every crowd and most of TT is deperate for someone to beat Novack
Thiem can learn a lot from this match. He was not present on any breakpoint.

 

[Gary Duane]

@Meles @Chanwan
@stringertom
@Gary Duane

Thiem had 15 break points across 6 unique service games. He won 1 of those, wasting 14 BPs in the 5 lost games.

Djokovic had 6 break points across 6 unique service games. He won 3 of those, wasting 3 BPs in the 3 lost games.

Djokovic won 42% of non-BPs (22/53). Thiem won 48% of non-BPs (42/87).

USO 2015 final, anyone?

On average % of points won on serve and on return should be about the same as % of BPs won on serve and return.

You can actually do the same DR formula on BPs, then compare with % of points. Usually they will be very close, because they are related. But it can go really wonky in individual matches.

And that happened today. Thiem should have won that match. Period. He choked horribly.

 

[Gary Duane]

For the record, this whole argument about whether or not Thiem can be really great in the future largely hinges on whether or not great players now have to be older to dominate - and we won't know this for a face, one way of the other, for a few more years...

 

[Druss]

You want to bet on Birdman?
Apparently @Djoko2011 doesn't quite after all. Know this though - lightning hasn't struck once on HC in 19 meetings so far.

Actually I may bet on Birdman winning, that is, if Djoker hobbled on court with crutches :/

 

[Chanwan]

Actually I may bet on Birdman winning, that is, if Djoker hobbled on court with crutches :/

now where's that one-legged picture of him, when you need it...

 

[I Am Finnish]

now where's that one-legged picture of him, when you need it...

 

[Druss]

Priceless!

 

[I Am Finnish]

Wow. Try to get replay.
This looks to be 7 minutes of highlights from the final game of the match.

Hoping they play in all of the clay masters.

at 6.45 thiem should had challenged it imo

How nervous was you during the last game

 

[BreakPoint]

1/16 on break points? Is Thiem taking lessons from Federer?

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Can't wait till djokovic wins the French open this year. Then completes the CYGS. Plus winning the Olympics. About time haters admit djoko is gonna become the GOAT. No one is gonna stop him now

 

[tennis_pro]

Thiem played great today and I look forward to his future because I know he will be a champ.

In ATP500 tournaments, maybe.

 

[tennis_pro]

Also, to me Fedalovic are all the definition of exceptions - they stand out to the rest. You don't care about the Big 3? ;-)

What do you mean by exceptions? They are all ATG's. Just as Borg, Sampras, Lendl etc. before. They're not head and shoulders above the best players that came before them.

 

[Chanwan]

What do you mean by exceptions? They are all ATG's. Just as Borg, Sampras, Lendl etc. before. They're not head and shoulders above the best players that came before them.

Every all time great is an exception to the thousands who tried and came up short

 

[ScentOfDefeat]

Well, I suppose there will come a point when Thiem is still playing and Djokovic isn't where he could win a couple of Slams. Why do you think it's such an impossible task, @tennis_pro? I think he's certainly in the mix for a future Slam winner as things stand. It's not like Raonic and Nishikori are going to dominate tennis like the big 3 did. We're too used to this pattern of a big 3, but things might change in the following generations. Maybe we'll have more "modest" careers but with more people involved: two or three players who win four Slams or five, a couple more who win one or two, something like that.

 

[ST_spitzertelescope]

What do you mean by "now"? So Thiem was gonna stop him, LOL?

This era is an absolute disgrace and nobody will ever look at Djokovic as the GOAT no matter what or how much he wins. Absolutely zero competition. His titles mean zilch. It's not even a joke now, it's just sad. No insider will ever consider Djokovic's achievement after mid 2014 legit.

If you truly believe this, why watch tennis? Why post on a tennis forum?

Strange.

 

[Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil]

If you truly believe this, why watch tennis? Why post on a tennis forum?

Strange.

To fulfill his potential of being a pain in the azz.

 

[Emperor of Belgrade]

A lot of replies for a 4th round Masters match.

 

[ST_spitzertelescope]

I'm putting tennis pro on my banned users, in this thread they've been particularly disruptive.

It would be good if we had a list of spammers, so decent folk can add any new spammers to their ignore list. A bit like how adblock lists work.

 

[Meles]

Thiem played great and cudos to him - definitely Top 10 material - we just have to seem him continue playing at this level.
In a way similar to Stan, wide swings lots of power on both ends but need time.

Speed/power play takes time from him - if you watch the Tsonga match you'll see what a power player with a fast can do to his game.

Djokovic played average and too passive (similar to FO final), plus serve was subpar.

Entertaining match - we'll see more of these between these 2 in the future I hope

Thiem had a bit to do with the that sub par performance.

Totally agree on Tsonga match. Thiem was a bit off and Tsonga just rolled him badly with so many devestating forehands. On clay, Thiem should be able to hang a bit better with Fed, Stan, and Tsonga. He's got work to do on hard courts.

After seeing this match is pretty clear that in the future Thiem is going to be trouble for Djokovic on any surface except grass.

 

[Meles]

Yes and he quickly lived up to the hype. He beat Nadal in Miami in 2007 to win his first MS (later on) title at the age of 19. He reached the FO and Wimbledon semis. He beat Federer (and Nadal/Roddick in the same tournament) in Canada in 2007 when he was barely 20 years old. At the very beginning of the next season he won his first Slam.

And here we are (well not me) getting all amped up about a 22,5 year old Thiem losing 6-3 6-4 to Djokovic. I mean no comment.

Thiem's 2016 is already on par with Djokovic's 2010 and we have a long way to go this year. Think about it. Thiem's run over the last year is very much like Nadal's from 2004 into 2005 and his first French Open. Thiem has been facing a much higher level of competition and will be hard pressed to match Nadal's run this spring where Nadal's chief rival in 2005 was Coria. Thiem has got a host of strong clay court players to deal with, but he should do well. (Djokovic, Federer, Nadal, Ferrer, Wawrinka, and even Berdy, Nishikori, and Murray are very strong on clay these days.) This year will be one of the strongest on clay in some time with an improving Coric and Sock also around to make life difficult. Even Dimitrov has a solid game on clay and is showing signs of life.

 

[Meles]

Of course. The sole fact that he won a set means that he was a bigger threat to beating Djokovic.

Because Fratangelo is a journeyman (or likely will be in the future, he's still fairly young to be sure at this stage) so nobody talks about him, that's the major difference.

Huh? Fratengelo is older than Thiem and has only won one ATP tour level match in his career.

 

[cc0509]

The next big things are Nick and Sasha. Who cares about Thiem? Just another journeyman

Ha ha. Well Thiem will definitely have to do much better vs Djokovic in the future and much better vs the other top ten players before we can take all of this Thiem hype seriously.

I would love to see a Kyrgios-Djokovic match in Miami to see where Kyrgios is really at and if he can do any better than Thiem did vs Djokovic.

 

[cc0509]

Wow. Try to get replay.
This looks to be 7 minutes of highlights from the final game of the match.

Hoping they play in all of the clay masters.

Honestly, the Miami slow hard courts aren't that far away from clay courts in terms of how they play. I doubt Thiem will do much better vs Djokovic on clay in a few weeks.

 

[Meles]

Yep, it's sad that the expectations are so low these days for the upstarts. Djokovic was below par today and still theim didn't even come close to taking a set off him. Had so many chances. will have to wait and see how he fares on clay.

This is true. Thiem made valiant attempts to save both sets today, but had he won both of those games he still had a long way to go. Still looks like a huge matchup issue for the world number one ongoing.

 

[rh310]

Can't wait till djokovic wins the French open this year. Then completes the CYGS. Plus winning the Olympics. About time haters admit djoko is gonna become the GOAT. No one is gonna stop him now

As recently as a year ago, people were still saying that about Nadal. When things go south, they go south in a big bjorkin' hurry.

 

[oneness]

This is true. Thiem made valiant attempts to save both sets today, but had he won both of those games he still had a long way to go. Still looks like a huge matchup issue for the world number one ongoing.

Looking forward to their matches in the clay season.

 

[Meles]

Ha ha. Well Thiem will definitely have to do much better vs Djokovic in the future and much better vs the other top ten players before we can take all of this Thiem hype seriously.

I would love to see a Kyrgios-Djokovic match in Miami to see where Kyrgios is really at and if he can do any better than Thiem did vs Djokovic.

Kyrgios would make it very entertaining on grass and hard courts. Overall, much more physical talent than Thiem and making impressive moves to stregthen his mental side. Phenomenal improvement in return game. His stats on hard court are very impressive and the aggressive nature of his game makes him even more of a threat to break through and win tournaments. (Thiem definitely has a bit of this firepower, so also more of a threat to exceed what the stats might say versus a player like Murray or even Djokovic for that matter.) I would really love to see that match too before we move onto the clay. Don't want to see Raonic again this week.

Honestly, the Miami slow hard courts aren't that far away from clay courts in terms of how they play. I doubt Thiem will do much better vs Djokovic on clay in a few weeks.

In a final I think so. With luck (1 in 4) we'll have another round of 16 clash in Monte Carlo. Goffin just won so Thiem will be 13 seed unless someone withdraws from tournament.

Given how much trouble he gave Novak on serve he appears to be a matchup problem which is great for Thiem. Novak absolutely clobbered Thiem on 2nd serves. Thiem's first serve kicker was wildly effective in the first set, but Djokovic was getting a reasonable measure of it in the 2nd set. Thiem lulled and gifted three breaks in the match. He'll have to cut that down and continue troubling the Djoko service games. Thiem's return performance was better than expected in this match and frankly winning 38% of one of the best hard court players of all time first serve points was stellar stuff. First serve return is Thiem's weakness and if it is becoming a strength he will be on a rampage.

In case you missed it:

Nole speaks on Thiem:

 

[Meles]

Can't argue tastes I guess, Thiem creating all those oppurtinities and not converting them kept adding on to the tension. But a match full of double faults and groundstrokes sailing meters long, you'll definitely find objections to the label "one of the best matches of the year". I'd say this match has "forgettable" written all over it.

Not watched many Thiem matches have you? Thiem on hard courts will always have some errors given the nature of his game. You must have millimeters and meters confused because most of the misses by both players were within an inch of the line typically. All of the errors were more of a forced nature for both players. Most of the rallies were long and epic on those BPs.

 

[Meles]

It happened all the time until now, that's the main reason Djokovic is dominating despite being almost 29 years old. McEnroe was good enough to beat Borg, Lendl was good enough to beat McEnroe, Becker was good enough to beat Lendl, Sampras was good enough to beat Becker, Federer was good enough to beat Sampras, then Nadal and Djokovic. This is the first time that the new generation actually has to wait for the old one to decline completely to have their cake. If someone like Thiem (whose style and personally I like, I just know that he isn't good enough) is next in line, then thank you very much.



There isn't a single tournament or surface where Thiem could win a set off of Djokovic. This isn't grass or indoors, it's a slow hard court, he should've pushed him a lot harder if he was the next big thing.

I'm upgrading my quote now. "There isn't a single tournament or surface where Thiem could win a set off of Djokovic." going in for your previous one "Thiem LOL. Djokovic will smoke him 6-2 6-2." tennis_pro

Keep em rolling.

 

[bilboa]

Thiem had a bit to do with the that sub par performance.

Totally agree on Tsonga match. Thiem was a bit off and Tsonga just rolled him badly with so many devestating forehands. On clay, Thiem should be able to hang a bit better with Fed, Stan, and Tsonga. He's got work to do on hard courts.

After seeing this match is pretty clear that in the future Thiem is going to be trouble for Djokovic on any surface except grass.

Just to clarify - I did not say djokovic played subpar, but served sub par. His play I thought was average given the level we have seen him play (just last week vs. Raonic) - when I say average this relates (as I see it) to him being in defense mode when he should not be.

Thiem has great potential and seems like a very down-to-earth up and rising star.

 

[tennis_pro]

I'm upgrading my quote now. "There isn't a single tournament or surface where Thiem could win a set off of Djokovic." going in for your previous one "Thiem LOL. Djokovic will smoke him 6-2 6-2." tennis_pro

Keep em rolling.

Djokovic won 6-3 6-4 instead of 6-2 6-2. A routine win nevertheless. My point stands.

 

[Meles]

Djokovic won 6-3 6-4 instead of 6-2 6-2. A routine win nevertheless. My point stands.

Haha. Far from a smoking. The last game took 15 minutes alone. Til they meet on clay and we'll see if Thiem can get a set.

 

[tennis_pro]

Haha. Far from a smoking. The last game took 15 minutes alone. Til they meet on clay and we'll see if Thiem can get a set.

they wont face each other on clay

 

[Hyde]

I'm sure Thiem will have a pretty good career. He may not be the most talented player of his generation IMO, but I'm so impressed with his work-ethic, his humble fighting nature and his clear mind. That's the main reason why he is ever improving since many years and why will continue to do so. He has the right mentality and lives for the tennis sport unlike some of the other youngstars.

 

[Meles]

It was never in doubt who would win. What if Thiem would've broken here? Nothing would've happened. Djokovic would've broken back or won the 2nd set in a tiebreak. If somehow Thiem won the 2nd set (10% chance maybe) then Djokovic would've killed him in the third.

Disagree with this completely. Thiem is deadly at the end of sets. It wouldn't have gotten any easier if he had broken in either of those games. Cracks were appearing in Nole's armor in this match, particularly the serving. He barely closed out either set. Hopefully the next match is more brutal and we'll see what both are made of when it's really close at the end of set. After seeing this match, my money is on Thiem. He will have him.