2016 WTA Rogers Cup.

Who will win?


  • Total voters
    7
  • Poll closed .
That whole post is you building a giant strawman and then setting it on fire.

Translated: your ridiculous comparison between Muguruza and an old veteran in Murray backfired on you--particularly when one considers this non "all time great" only managed 3 majors in 11 years on tour. Next time, try not to be so desperate to condemn the WTA or individual players if your "superior" example is so easily dismissed by his own record. Talk about an argument set up to be defeated.
 
Early, but Venus's outfit for the US Open:

1469392561386
 
Actually some decent 2R matches.
Cibulkova v Bouchard should be good
Bouchy needs points ASAP. Ranked 42nd in the world but 240 of those points are from her USO 4R last year. If she's unseeded she definitely won't go too far. She needs to get top 30 and be seeded. Has a few tournaments til then. After USO she has no points to defend as she missed the rest of the year due to the controversial concussion. She played one match in China but retired. So if she can get top 30 now, she'll keep that til next year and perhaps she can get back to top 20.

Keys v Brengle. Depends which Madison turns up (yes I mean both of them because both can be good on good days and bad on bad days..)
Strycova v Venus. Drama handshake last time they played, should be interesting.
Petko v Kvitova. Definite popcorn stuff. Both won their 1R matches easily.
Pliskova v Errani.
Stosur v Kasatkina. Who knows
Vinci v Giorgi. Depends which Camila turns up.
Lucic Baroni-Kerber. If Kerber is off and MLB is good, I could see the upset.
 
...and that is all PDJ lives for: attacking Serena with his neverending fantasies only he believes. Immature and desperate in the extreme. But he will continue to derail the thread, meanwhile...
It's hardly derailing a thread when the topic brought up was Serena pulling out of this very tournament.
Indeed you took offence at any perceived criticism of Serena Williams - however valid - which prompted a handful of posts detailing when she had withdrawn.
You were asked to provide evidence to support your argument. You choose not to.
You prefer to deflect. Which is your standard approach when you have no response to cold hard facts.
AND if you're going to mention me, however negatively, have the good manners to respond to my post or, at the very least, tag me.
 
It's hardly derailing a thread when the topic brought up was Serena pulling out of this very tournament.
Indeed you took offence at any perceived criticism of Serena Williams - however valid - which prompted a handful of posts detailing when she had withdrawn.
You were asked to provide evidence to support your argument. You choose not to.
You prefer to deflect. Which is your standard approach when you have no response to cold hard facts.
AND if you're going to mention me, however negatively, have the good manners to respond to my post or, at the very least, tag me.

Still derailing the thread. It is no wonder so many of your posts end up on the chopping block, or close threads.

This thread is not about Serena Williams, and it is certainly not about the myth of her never being injured during majors.

Your ill-minded agenda is clear. Have the stones to start your own "I hate Serena" or "My problems with Serena" thread, instead of hiding behind (polluting) other threads with your constant references to nonexistent drug use, or anything else you conjure up about the woman.
 
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Translated: your ridiculous comparison between Muguruza and an old veteran in Murray backfired on you--particularly when one considers this non "all time great" only managed 3 majors in 11 years on tour. Next time, try not to be so desperate to condemn the WTA or individual players if your "superior" example is so easily dismissed by his own record. Talk about an argument set up to be defeated.

Straw man fallacy. What did I say? I said "Muguruza has yet to prove she's in Murray's category before we can even talk about her being an all-time great." I didn't say she was comparable to Murray and I didn't consider Murray an all-time great. Again, let's revisit the sentence slowly so you understand: "Muguruza has yet to prove she's in Murray's category before we can even talk about her being an all-time great." My argument is that these last 10 years have not seen the rise of any all-time great players. Muguruza could be the exception but I find it very unlikely. And it is in these anomalous times (both in the WTA and the ATP, which I think are very similar although you seem to believe I have a preference for the ATP - when in fact it's the complete opposite) that we were able to have four double-digit Slam winners (and only one on the women's side). These players have no one breathing down their necks as they stroll through their 30's winning Slams. No young Williams sisters on the women's side, no young Federers and Djokovics on the men's side. No wonder Serena is still playing; no wonder Federer still believes he can win a Slam in his mid-thirties and after coming back from an injury.
 
Still derailing the thread. It is no wonder so many of your posts end up on the chopping block, or close threads.

This thread is not about Serena Williams, and it is certainly not about the myth of her never being injured during majors.

Your ill-minded agenda is clear. Have the stones to start your own "I hate Serena" or "My problems with Serena" thread, instead of hiding behind (polluting) other threads with your constant references to nonexistent drug use, or anything else you conjure up about the woman.
Any one who's read the majority of my posts - of which very few are deleted- will know that this is simply not true.
I'm not a fan of Serena Williams - that's common knowledge - I certainly don't 'hate' her. I was simply commenting on how many tournaments she's withdrawn from. However, you fail to see anything aside from absolute devotion for Williams. I get it, you're a total fan. Probably her best. EVER.
She completes you and you identify with her.
And if that works for you, well, good for you.
Good for you.
ps, when I have once referred to Serena using drugs in this thread? Interesting. Very interesting.
 
Not great about Muguruza, it's like these players don't want to get number 1. Yikes. As Spystud said, no points for Serena to defend post USO so it's now or never (and by never I mean like mid next year). At which point Serena would have taken the record from Graf of most consecutive weeks at number 1.

As I said, we're living in a paradigm where the top player just watches the others beat each other in alternate succession in a "one-step-forward, two-steps-backwards" pattern. Serena will easily surpass the record because there's not a single player willing to (or able to) challenge the number 1 spot. There are simply no meteoric rises to the top, which was a staple in tennis before the 21st century.
 
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Please no more Serena talk, I just can't. She's not even playing this week, can't we just chat about tennis and rankings and such and not about weak era or whatever.
 
Please no more Serena talk, I just can't. She's not even playing this week, can't we just chat about tennis and rankings and such and not about weak era or whatever.
I'm perfectly content with that. However, I will defend myself when personally attacked. As indeed I have for others when they have suffered similar. I make no apologies for that.
 
I'm perfectly content with that. However, I will defend myself when personally attacked. As indeed I have for others when they have suffered similar. I make no apologies for that.
Was moreso for Scent, I haven't joined in on this nonsense but got quoted and brought in but don't have time for it and hate seeing the thread turn into something that isn't match results etc. Not choosing sides just would love to see some cool info like this person is reaching a new career high or this person has pulled out of Rio
 
Was moreso for Scent, I haven't joined in on this nonsense but got quoted and brought in but don't have time for it and hate seeing the thread turn into something that isn't match results etc. Not choosing sides just would love to see some cool info like this person is reaching a new career high or this person has pulled out of Rio
I find it interesting when the subjects are varied. And people are entitled to different views or it just becomes sterile and of limited interest.
And frankly any tournament will throw up no-shows, great wins and some shocking losses.
I enjoy the ranking posts, posts on stats and trivia.
Blind devotion I find tedious at worst, amusing at best.
I also think it's fair to be quoted if a poster has made a point. Otherwise what's the point of the forum? Surely it should be more than just stand alone remarks?
 
Actually some decent 2R matches.
Cibulkova v Bouchard should be good
Bouchy needs points ASAP. Ranked 42nd in the world but 240 of those points are from her USO 4R last year. If she's unseeded she definitely won't go too far. She needs to get top 30 and be seeded. Has a few tournaments til then. After USO she has no points to defend as she missed the rest of the year due to the controversial concussion. She played one match in China but retired. So if she can get top 30 now, she'll keep that til next year and perhaps she can get back to top 20.

Keys v Brengle. Depends which Madison turns up (yes I mean both of them because both can be good on good days and bad on bad days..)
Strycova v Venus. Drama handshake last time they played, should be interesting.
Petko v Kvitova. Definite popcorn stuff. Both won their 1R matches easily.
Pliskova v Errani.
Stosur v Kasatkina. Who knows
Vinci v Giorgi. Depends which Camila turns up.
Lucic Baroni-Kerber. If Kerber is off and MLB is good, I could see the upset.

Thank you for this overview. I certainly won't be putting money on the outcome of any of these matches, but just for the fun of it, here are my predictions:

(1) Keys
(2) Venus (I HOPE)
(3) Kvitova (again, wishful thinking)
(4) Errani
(5) a truly hard one, but I think Kasatkina
(6) Vinci
(7) Kerber (but I'd love to be wrong).

Looking forward to seeing if I'll manage to go 0/7 with these predictions.
 
Sure. I was only replying to your post.
I don't think my post was analysing how no one is openly challenging Serena or asking for criticisms for how this epgeneration is weak in comparison to the early 21st century.
In response to your initial post to me (I know I said let's forget it but PDJ said whats a forum with just stand alone remarks), I think it's crap to say there hasn't been a meteoric rise when Muguruza had a pretty big rise herself, out of nowhere reaching the Wimbledon final last year and then winning a slam at the French and now we are discussing a 22 year old possibly being number 1? Hardly not keeping close to Serena and the number one spot especially considering this withdrawal was based on injury and not 'eh can't be bothered playing lets just give Serena the number 1 record'

I find it interesting when the subjects are varied. And people are entitled to different views or it just becomes sterile and of limited interest.
And frankly any tournament will throw up no-shows, great wins and some shocking losses.
Blind devotion I find tedious at worst, amusing at best.
I also think it's fair to be quoted if a poster has made a point. Otherwise what's the point of the forum? Surely it should be more than just stand alone remarks?
Seems every WTA thread now turns into how no one challenges Serena, weak generation and just other Serena critiques like how she never withdraws from slams but always smaller tournaments. It's getting annoying especially when I'm creating the threads, waking up to find them deleted and then having it happen all over again the following week.

I just want to enjoy the popcorn 2R matches and read what other posters think about them not how Serena is fluking the record cause players withdraw and no one is with her week to week.
 
I don't think my post was analysing how no one is openly challenging Serena or asking for criticisms for how this epgeneration is weak in comparison to the early 21st century.
In response to your initial post to me (I know I said let's forget it but PDJ said whats a forum with just stand alone remarks), I think it's crap to say there hasn't been a meteoric rise when Muguruza had a pretty big rise herself, out of nowhere reaching the Wimbledon final last year and then winning a slam at the French and now we are discussing a 22 year old possibly being number 1? Hardly not keeping close to Serena and the number one spot especially considering this withdrawal was based on injury and not 'eh can't be bothered playing lets just give Serena the number 1 record'


Seems every WTA thread now turns into how no one challenges Serena, weak generation and just other Serena critiques like how she never withdraws from slams but always smaller tournaments. It's getting annoying especially when I'm creating the threads, waking up to find them deleted and then having it happen all over again the following week.

I just want to enjoy the popcorn 2R matches and read what other posters think about them not how Serena is fluking the record cause players withdraw and no one is with her week to week.

Alright then, now that I'm aware of your sensitivity to this issue, I won't bring it up again with you. (But of course I don't agree with you that Muguruza winning one Slam and reaching another final at the age of 22 is in any way comparable to what tennis was like in the past, where there was hardly a point in time where a young great wasn't in the process of taking the tennis world by storm and challenging top players who were even younger than Serena is now). That's all.
 
Lol...Serena regularly skips the lesser tournaments. She always develops an injury of some sort that forces her to pull out. Mysteriously, these injuries only ever manifest themselves in the smaller events but never at the Slams. Strange that. ;)
Yeah, if Serena's currently injured then I'm Brad Pitt. I do like her but in terms of professionalism she's nowhere near on the same level as other tier 1 legends of yesteryear, not to mention the likes of Hingis and Davenport who I recall used to play tonnes of smaller tournaments back in the day. It's all well and good TV saying that Serena(and any other great player) will only be remembered for winning the very biggest events such as Slams and the Olympics but she's also by far the biggest name in the women's game and IMO has a duty to show up regularly even at the "Mickey Mouse" ones where her sponsors and more importantly her fans look forward to seeing her play.
I just don't think pulling out of so many non major tournaments constantly citing "injury" is a good look and I'd be lying if I said it didn't leave a bitter taste in my mouth.
 
I'm always disappointed when she pulls out but saying she's outright lying is a bit much. As I said before, it's probably something relatively minor that she'd play through at a GS but doesn't want to take any chances with at a lesser tournament.

I wish she had been more consistent throughout her career, but she's 34, she has to preserve herself now. If this is the price to be paid to make sure she's able to stick around as a serious contender, I'll pay it gladly at the end of the day.

Hingis may have played more minor touranments, but she also withdrew at an extremely young age. I prefer longevity over that.
 
Thank you for this overview. I certainly won't be putting money on the outcome of any of these matches, but just for the fun of it, here are my predictions:

(1) Keys
(2) Venus (I HOPE)
(3) Kvitova (again, wishful thinking)
(4) Errani
(5) a truly hard one, but I think Kasatkina
(6) Vinci
(7) Kerber (but I'd love to be wrong).

Looking forward to seeing if I'll manage to go 0/7 with these predictions.

Well, I already missed one of the seven. On track for 0/7. :)

EDIT 2: Vinci wins so looks like I managed to predict at least one match right.
 
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She doesn't lose all of them, as her 100 in Birmingham will now count, but yes it will be hard. I think a W + SF is needed.

Live rankings say she can maximally get to 7295. But IDK if that accounts for the Stanford point loss. Probably not.

Absent Cincy and Rogers Cup points, Serena's points will come down to 7,050. Only Kerber can catch up pre-USO, but once USO begins, anyone from top five might get there (except Simona, I guess, because she has too many points to defend).
 
Niculescu failed to serve for the set. I except Aga to break her now and wrap it up in two. Oh, Monica.

EDIT: Yup, it happened.

EDIT 2: Oh, Venus. Letting Strycova get away with 0:40 on her serve.
 
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Straw man fallacy.

Good Lord, stop using "straw man" if you do not know how to properly identify, then apply it to a subject.

What did I say? I said "Muguruza has yet to prove she's in Murray's category before we can even talk about her being an all-time great." I didn't say she was comparable to Murray and I didn't consider Murray an all-time great.


Do you read what you post?

  • One, no one said Muguruza was an all time great, so you created a false negative about an imaginary assessment of her, only having a negative outcome. Yes, you are that easy to read.
  • Two, you obviously think Murray holds some great(er) position, since you used him as a benchmark comparison to Muguruza. The only proper ATP comparison to her are the young contemporaries, and the arc of their careers, not some 11 year veteran. Ahh, but you would not do that, since she is more successful than all of the "name" young players (mentioned on page 2) by winning a major. Your **** poor comparison would as bad as someone doing the same with Davenport and Simon. There's not a whit of analytically sound footing there...and there cannot be, when one is motivated by unchained agenda.

My argument is that these last 10 years have not seen the rise of any all-time great players. Muguruza could be the exception but I find it very unlikely. And it is in these anomalous times (both in the WTA and the ATP, which I think are very similar although you seem to believe I have a preference for the ATP

Yet you expose your agenda by actively not mentioning the legion of present day ATP failures, and targeting one WTA player who managed to do what the ATP contemporaries have not--win a major. Handicapping her career is anything other than constructive, particularly when (again) you do not go this far (or even name) the male players, or apply the same standard of judgement.

Gee...any wonder why several on this board have called you out on this kind of nonsense?

These players have no one breathing down their necks as they stroll through their 30's winning Slams. No young Williams sisters on the women's side, no young Federers and Djokovics on the men's side. No wonder Serena is still playing; no wonder Federer still believes he can win a Slam in his mid-thirties and after coming back from an injury.

Federer believing he can still win a major has nothing to do with some belief that he's in a field of nobodies; he does not approach the game that way, as anyone--even a player who will never win a major--can take out a top player (think Jaime Yzaga's win over Sampras at the 1994 USO), and of all people, the top players are aware of that.

Federer is fighting for every moment at the majors as the door of his career closes.
 
Yikes, Suarez Navarro loses to Kucova
Pliskova gets a walkover from Errani, what's happened with Sara?
Good wins by Aga, Vinci and Pavs
 
I don't think my post was analysing how no one is openly challenging Serena or asking for criticisms for how this epgeneration is weak in comparison to the early 21st century.
In response to your initial post to me (I know I said let's forget it but PDJ said whats a forum with just stand alone remarks), I think it's crap to say there hasn't been a meteoric rise when Muguruza had a pretty big rise herself, out of nowhere reaching the Wimbledon final last year and then winning a slam at the French and now we are discussing a 22 year old possibly being number 1? Hardly not keeping close to Serena and the number one spot especially considering this withdrawal was based on injury and not 'eh can't be bothered playing lets just give Serena the number 1 record'

..and as I pointed out in my earlier post, she is held to a different standard that her ATP contemporaries. She wins a major, and all manner of wild, illogical comparisons are made, while the ATP legion of losers skate by with a feeble, "Djokovic and Federer are better" type of line, which protects the losers from detailed analysis.

Seems every WTA thread now turns into how no one challenges Serena, weak generation and just other Serena critiques like how she never withdraws from slams but always smaller tournaments. It's getting annoying especially when I'm creating the threads, waking up to find them deleted and then having it happen all over again the following week.

Well observed. Anything to damn the WTA or for certain members, Serena. Where Serena is concerned, I'm almost certain this "weak generation" or "no one challenges" nonsense would not exist if the player in question was Radwanska or Sharapova. Once again, the "wrong" player is the most successful at the majors, and that boils the blood of some. The repeated "arguments" (or trolling) is a never-ending problem.
 
Yikes, Suarez Navarro loses to Kucova
Pliskova gets a walkover from Errani, what's happened with Sara?
Good wins by Aga, Vinci and Pavs

Ah, so Errani was a WO. There goes a justification for my first (but surely not last) erroneous prediction in re: today's matches. :)

Venus consolidated the break against Barbora. Hopefully she can end this routinely and avoid a third set.

EDIT: Ahhhhh, three break opportunities. Come on, let's steamroll now!

EDIT 2: She did it! Up a double break now, and three holds away.

EDIT 3: 5:0 in the second, Venus now to serve for match/bagel.

EDIT 4: She won! Awesome job, Queenus!
 
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Good Lord, stop using "straw man" if you do not know how to properly identify, then apply it to a subject.




Do you read what you post?

  • One, no one said Muguruza was an all time great, so you created a false negative about an imaginary assessment of her, only having a negative outcome. Yes, you are that easy to read.
  • Two, you obviously think Murray holds some great(er) position, since you used him as a benchmark comparison to Muguruza. The only proper ATP comparison to her are the young contemporaries, and the arc of their careers, not some 11 year veteran. Ahh, but you would not do that, since she is more successful than all of the "name" young players (mentioned on page 2) by winning a major. Your **** poor comparison would as bad as someone doing the same with Davenport and Simon. There's not a whit of analytically sound footing there...and there cannot be, when one is motivated by unchained agenda.



Yet you expose your agenda by actively not mentioning the legion of present day ATP failures, and targeting one WTA player who managed to do what the ATP contemporaries have not--win a major. Handicapping her career is anything other than constructive, particularly when (again) you do not go this far (or even name) the male players, or apply the same standard of judgement.

Gee...any wonder why several on this board have called you out on this kind of nonsense?



Federer believing he can still win a major has nothing to do with some belief that he's in a field of nobodies; he does not approach the game that way, as anyone--even a player who will never win a major--can take out a top player (think Jaime Yzaga's win over Sampras at the 1994 USO), and of all people, the top players are aware of that.

Federer is fighting for every moment at the majors as the door of his career closes.

I have to commend you, you're a master at the straw man fallacy. I never said you stated Muguruza was an all-time great, but you obviously know that. I used Muguruza to show she's the only young(ish) player to have won a big title lately and the first in many years. And also to illustrate there are close to zero young players leaving their mark in the WTA when in the past it was not only common but also constant for young players to challenge and eventually overtake the top players. In a tour dominated by a single woman for the last I don't know how many years it would be very strange if at least ONE youngster didn't win a big title once. When I say Serena wins everything it's because you can't get much closer to winning everything in this sport than what she's been doing. 100% is almost impossible in this sport.

What do you mean, I think Murray holds a greater position? He does, doesn't he? This just follows from my argument that the WTA is a highly inflated 1% in Serena and an impoverished "middle class" that sometimes produces a provisional challenger. I'm not saying it's her fault, and I'm not saying it's the "big three"'s fault in the men's game either. It's a matter of structure and context.

The ATP suffers from the exact same problem as the WTA, except they have three "all-time greats" blocking the passage for these youngsters instead of just one. As omnipotent as Serena is in Slams, you can't expect her to prevent the rise of at least one young player who can trade blows with her on the baseline and sometimes win. Just as an example: a player like Thiem would have to beat a combination of Djokovic/Murray/Wawrinka (Nadal and Federer currently out of the equation) to win a big title. Serena can sometimes slip, but most of the time she'll be there, playing those finals and giving herself a huge chance to win. I have no agenda; again you're mistaken, I have no parti pris in favour of the ATP. I just wish the WTA was more to my taste right now. Don't we all wish things were more to our taste here and there?

Perhaps Federer doesn't have that belief (who knows what Federer's beliefs are?), but the fact that players in their mid-thirties are still so confident about their chances tells you something about the shifts in the game over the past fifteen years or so. Let's just say that top players (and I'm talking all-time greats here) who were young in the late 90's and are now in their mid-thirties have had a greater advantage (in terms of how tennis has progressed) than top players who began rising in the late 80's. Longevity is remarkable in itself but there are also external factors that make longevity less challenging than it once was.

(I'm sorry about going back to this topic, but as you can see I'm only rebutting)
 
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All right, I'm at 3 out of 7 so far, and the 1 I got wrong was a walkover. Not terrible. :-)

Keys up a set on Brengle, but it's Keys so that doesn't mean much.
 
Keys goes forward with a relatively straightforward win over Brengle. 4/7 on my predictions so far. :-) I might even count it as a perfect day if both of my remaining predictions go through since the only miss was a walkover.
 
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