"2017...for a while, was the best of his career...you felt you were in his hands..." Rafael Nadal on career rival Roger Federer's transformation

Is Rafael correct that Federer played his best ever tennis in 2017?

  • No, he only played Roger 40 times, what does he know?

    Votes: 3 8.8%

  • No, weak era

    Votes: 2 5.9%

  • Yes, after winning 22 majors, and playing Roger 40 times, I think he knows his stuff

    Votes: 16 47.1%

  • Yes, I think his achievements in 2017 speak for themselves

    Votes: 8 23.5%

  • Something else

    Votes: 5 14.7%
  • Total voters
    34
Holmes

Holmes

Hall of Fame
Very interesting comment from the Spanish Bull in his recent interview with Andy Roddick. For years many have pointed to the Maestro's more efficient footwork, markedly more aggressive serve, and consistently dangerous backhand as indicators that 2017 was perhaps the highest level he hit in his career, yet for one reason or another, those making this claim have been labeled haters, trolls, clowns etc. It seems as if now the second greatest of the big 3, after Novak Djokovic of course, has joined the troll brigade. Your thoughts on Rafael's statement?

In the same interview, Nadal also claimed that his matchup against Novak was one where strategy took a seat to level, and that to win, he needed to play very well for a long time. Does this imply that Novak was a greater challenge to Rafael than the Maestro?
 
I think that watching him play over the years typically only on hard courts, his hard court play in 2015 was the highest caliber I’ve seen. I think Nadal didn’t play him much that year as he was in bad form and not making it late in tournaments. I’m not surprised at all that Federer said he was playing his best tennis that year. 2017 was not a big drop off from 2015 though, but he could win the Slams without having to face Novak (at his BOAT level) in Slam finals like he did in 2015.

When I watched matches live during that period, I remember feeling that the level of play in ATP finals/semis in general was much better than a decade prior and this was true for Federer also and not just for other players. On TTW, this is considered heresy, but many people I respect in real life like coaches (former pro players) and former college players at my club feel the same also. And we feel like the level has continued to go up as pace/spin of shots/serves continues to rise while the movement needed to play defense has become quicker. It is so exciting to go to pro tournaments these days and watch the amazing athleticism of the modern ATP players. There may not be as many superstars, but the general level of play is awesome.

I would rather have my ‘eye test’ match the opinions of Federer and Nadal rather than the TTW orthodoxy.
 
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It wasn't the highest level in his career by a longshot, but it FELT the hardest to Nadal. Rafa was 6-1 in their first 7 matches and Fed didn't know what to do in the matchup then, not to mention Nadal's speed was a cheat code. 2017 Federer was the hardest version of Federer for Nadal to beat in the sense of how Rafa felt against him on court. He's not wrong about how he felt, he's completely right. But obviously Federer was playing at a higher level at his peak.
 
socallefty said:
I think that watching him play over the years typically only on hard courts, his hard court play in 2015 was the highest caliber I’ve seen. I think Nadal didn’t play him much that year as he was in bad form and not making it late in tournaments. I’m not surprised at all that Federer said he was playing his best tennis that year. 2017 was not a big drop off from 2015 though, but he could win the Slams without having to face Novak (at his BOAT level) in Slam finals like he did in 2015.

When I watched matches live during that period, I remember feeling that the level of play in ATP finals/semis in general was much better than a decade prior and this was true for Federer also and not just for other players. On TTW, this is considered heresy, but many people I respect in real life like coaches (former pro players) and former college players at my club feel the same also. And we feel like the level has continued to go up as pace/spin of shots/serves continues to rise while the movement needed to play defense has become quicker. It is so exciting to go to pro tournaments these days and watch the amazing athleticism of the modern ATP players. There may not be as many superstars, but the general level of play is awesome.

I would rather have my ‘eye test’ match the opinions of Federer and Nadal rather than the TTW orthodoxy.
Click to expand...
He did not make the USO final in 2017 as he did in 2015.

He lost in the 3rd round at the AO in 2015.

Doesn't look like Wimbledon is relevant here.
 
Holmes said:
Very interesting comment from the Spanish Bull in his recent interview with Andy Roddick. For years many have pointed to the Maestro's more efficient footwork, markedly more aggressive serve, and consistently dangerous backhand as indicators that 2017 was perhaps the highest level he hit in his career, yet for one reason or another, those making this claim have been labeled haters, trolls, clowns etc. It seems as if now the second greatest of the big 3, after Novak Djokovic of course, has joined the troll brigade. Your thoughts on Rafael's statement?

In the same interview, Nadal also claimed that his matchup against Novak was one where strategy took a seat to level, and that to win, he needed to play very well for a long time. Does this imply that Novak was a greater challenge to Rafael than the Maestro?
Click to expand...
Of course Nole was a greater challenge than Roger. From my understanding, against Federer it was about which strategy works best that day. Against Djokovic he had to play better for long time, ha
As a Nole fan I appreciated when Rafa said Djokovic was the best at controlling the ball that he ever played and ever saw.
 
shorturl.at

Roger Federer: I am a better player now than I was a decade ago

Tennis - Former World No.1 Roger Federer feels that he is a better player now as compared to what he was 10 years ago.
shorturl.at shorturl.at

August 17, 2015
“I think I'm a better player now than when I was at 24 because I've practised for another 10 years and I've got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “I might not have the confidence I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it's ever been, I volley better than I have in the past.”

“I think I've had to adapt to a new generation of players again.”
 
aldeayeah said:
Nadal is just overreacting to the fact that Fed had shored up his relative weaknesses that Nadal used to exploit to great effect.

No way 2017 Fed is even close to his 2006 self that took the heat even to Rafa, even on clay, and made a general mockery out of the tour.
Click to expand...
Well Rafa wrecked Federer in 2006 lol, again he's speaking on how it felt to him.
 
socallefty said:
I think that watching him play over the years typically only on hard courts, his hard court play in 2015 was the highest caliber I’ve seen. I think Nadal didn’t play him much that year as he was in bad form and not making it late in tournaments. I’m not surprised at all that Federer said he was playing his best tennis that year. 2017 was not a big drop off from 2015 though, but he could win the Slams without having to face Novak (at his BOAT level) in Slam finals like he did in 2015.

When I watched matches live during that period, I remember feeling that the level of play in ATP finals/semis in general was much better than a decade prior and this was true for Federer also and not just for other players. On TTW, this is considered heresy, but many people I respect in real life like coaches (former pro players) and former college players at my club feel the same also. And we feel like the level has continued to go up as pace/spin of shots/serves continues to rise while the movement needed to play defense has become quicker. It is so exciting to go to pro tournaments these days and watch the amazing athleticism of the modern ATP players. There may not be as many superstars, but the general level of play is awesome.

I would rather have my ‘eye test’ match the opinions of Federer and Nadal rather than the TTW orthodoxy.
Click to expand...
Man, you just can’t help yourself, can you? You just have to do that subtle trolling thing so well. Or at least ‘pretty well’. I can’t say you troll as well as you did in 2023, but it’s not a big drop off…

Alright, I’ll bite. While Fedberg was amazingly effective against much of the tour on HCs in 2015, and in fact stats back this up(!), the “eye test”, actually reveals pretty clearly that he was not as good as 2017 in key aspects, never mind as good as 2012. (And let’s not even put 2006-7 in the same sentence, ok?)

At least the eye test reveals this to people with eyes who watch tennis… idk how it works for others.
1. Fed’s “neo” bh, at least from ao to Miami, just seemed so much stronger and more consistent. I could give you some stats as well (https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...f-federers-backhand-vs-nadal-in-slams.584363/) but hey, you trust the eye test.
2. His fh as well, regained some of its bite. And he had much more trust in it not breaking down compared to parts of 2015.

Also, he required 3 sets to beat Nadal on indoor hard in 2015. I know Nadal was slower in 2017, but still a little surprising that his “highest caliber ever” was so tested, when in Beijing 2017 he dismissed the Spaniard so casually.

I could continue, but in short, this work falls short of your lofty standards from a couple of years ago.
But hey! Many master trolls are retired by now, so I’m sure you’ll still do quite well on ttw this year.
 
There's a naive magic in youth that eventually gets rounded off with experience. You see it in music when bands twenty years into their career claim they're better than they used to be even though their albums aren't as good; they're not lying — they might each be better at their instrument, more technically advanced, more in control of what they do, with a wider knowledge — but the magic chemistry that was formed from a kind of naive excitement and experimentation produced better music, and now they're self-consciously competent, habituated, and unable to reproduce that.

In a similar way, I have little doubt that Federer felt himself to be a better player in 2015 and 2017 than in 2006; that experience had granted him a deeper understanding which he was able to apply in a wider variety of situations; that he had tightened up his relative weaknesses and augmented certain technical aspects like his serve; that he knew how to play in a simpler fashion to achieve his results. But the explosive magic of his youth, particularly in his movement and on his forehand side, made him a more devastating, commanding, and awe-inspiring player.

I think ‘prime’ is when you're able to maximise that magic level most consistently. There's rarely an absolute prime when every aspect of a player's game is at its peak on every surface, and many players improve some aspects of their game past their prime. Those improvements gave Federer a stronger foundation against Nadal specifically and allowed him to sweep through some tournaments without being pushed to utilise his diminished athleticism. But though I'd be hard-pressed to say that Nadal is ‘wrong’ about it, I don't agree that Federer was operating at his highest level then.
 
Holmes said:
Very interesting comment from the Spanish Bull in his recent interview with Andy Roddick. For years many have pointed to the Maestro's more efficient footwork, markedly more aggressive serve, and consistently dangerous backhand as indicators that 2017 was perhaps the highest level he hit in his career, yet for one reason or another, those making this claim have been labeled haters, trolls, clowns etc. It seems as if now the second greatest of the big 3, after Novak Djokovic of course, has joined the troll brigade. Your thoughts on Rafael's statement?

In the same interview, Nadal also claimed that his matchup against Novak was one where strategy took a seat to level, and that to win, he needed to play very well for a long time. Does this imply that Novak was a greater challenge to Rafael than the Maestro?
Click to expand...
YES! Just look at Nadal's H-H vs Roger and Novak.
 
I don't think Roger 2017 was his best in his career but Rafa said it was.
So, yes. Roger's best was in 2017.

AO, double IW-miami, double grass tourneys with 2 other tourneys.
 
Rafael Nadal is correct in that Roger Federer played best tennis vs Nadal in 2017..

This is not a big deal to understand. The neo backhand was Roger's answer to declining speed and it was best combination vs Nadal.

It must be taken with context. This type of KAMIKAZE play style took racket out of Nadal, a strictly percentage player's hand. This could have helped Federer in younger days vs Nadal as well but this would not work vs rest of the field more than playing percentages. So it's not Federer's best tennis.

Nadal never claimed this is Federer at his best himself. But this is peak Federer very near to his 2006/07/11/15 all of these years. Guys like Federer have 10+ years playing at peak.

And unlike some random ttw members

Peak/Prime is just suggestion, not a binding clause

Discussions about whether a player is "past their prime" or "out of their peak" often become contentious because they oversimplify complex performance dynamics. Here's a breakdown of how to approach these debates more constructively: Understanding Peak vs. Prime Prime refers to a sustained...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com
 
GrassMasters said:
Why did Fred only win 2 slams and no ATP finals on his best season ever?
Click to expand...
Because it wasn't his best season ever. Fred Federer's best year was in the 2000's. I don't remember off the top of my head which year. 2017 might have been Fred's best year for ballstriking, but his reduced speed and longer recovery times thanks to age prevented him from winning everything.
 
********.

Slingshot said:
Djokovic is at his peak now, Federer is at his peak now, Nadal is at his peak now, Murray is at his peak now, McEnroe is at his peak now, Laver is at his peak now; tennis is always evolving and everyone is at their peak.

Peak now or forever hold your peak.
Click to expand...


This is the way bullies operate by making absurd claims over exaggerating.
 
Slingshot said:
There's a naive magic in youth that eventually gets rounded off with experience. You see it in music when bands twenty years into their career claim they're better than they used to be even though their albums aren't as good; they're not lying — they might each be better at their instrument, more technically advanced, more in control of what they do, with a wider knowledge — but the magic chemistry that was formed from a kind of naive excitement and experimentation produced better music, and now they're self-consciously competent, habituated, and unable to reproduce that.

In a similar way, I have little doubt that Federer felt himself to be a better player in 2015 and 2017 than in 2006; that experience had granted him a deeper understanding which he was able to apply in a wider variety of situations; that he had tightened up his relative weaknesses and augmented certain technical aspects like his serve; that he knew how to play in a simpler fashion to achieve his results. But the explosive magic of his youth, particularly in his movement and on his forehand side, made him a more devastating, commanding, and awe-inspiring player.

I think ‘prime’ is when you're able to maximise that magic level most consistently. There's rarely an absolute prime when every aspect of a player's game is at its peak on every surface, and many players improve some aspects of their game past their prime. Those improvements gave Federer a stronger foundation against Nadal specifically and allowed him to sweep through some tournaments without being pushed to utilise his diminished athleticism. But though I'd be hard-pressed to say that Nadal is ‘wrong’ about it, I don't agree that Federer was operating at his highest level then.
Click to expand...
Perfect explanation.

We all experience this in our own lives as we age - our capacities might decline but we often use them more effectively as we've learnt to have better perseverance etc.
 
Holmes said:
Very interesting comment from the Spanish Bull in his recent interview with Andy Roddick. For years many have pointed to the Maestro's more efficient footwork, markedly more aggressive serve, and consistently dangerous backhand as indicators that 2017 was perhaps the highest level he hit in his career, yet for one reason or another, those making this claim have been labeled haters, trolls, clowns etc. It seems as if now the second greatest of the big 3, after Novak Djokovic of course, has joined the troll brigade. Your thoughts on Rafael's statement?

In the same interview, Nadal also claimed that his matchup against Novak was one where strategy took a seat to level, and that to win, he needed to play very well for a long time. Does this imply that Novak was a greater challenge to Rafael than the Maestro?
Click to expand...
Maybe in terms of peak level and shots, but he was nowhere near to the stamina, fitness, and ability to play long matches that he was at in the mid 2000s, so I'd think that would make the difference.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Rafael Nadal is correct in that Roger Federer played best tennis vs Nadal in 2017..

This is not a big deal to understand. The neo backhand was Roger's answer to declining speed and it was best combination vs Nadal.

It must be taken with context. This type of KAMIKAZE play style took racket out of Nadal, a strictly percentage player's hand. This could have helped Federer in younger days vs Nadal as well but this would not work vs rest of the field more than playing percentages. So it's not Federer's best tennis.

Nadal never claimed this is Federer at his best himself. But this is peak Federer very near to his 2006/07/11/15 all of these years. Guys like Federer have 10+ years playing at peak.

And unlike some random ttw members

Peak/Prime is just suggestion, not a binding clause

Discussions about whether a player is "past their prime" or "out of their peak" often become contentious because they oversimplify complex performance dynamics. Here's a breakdown of how to approach these debates more constructively: Understanding Peak vs. Prime Prime refers to a sustained...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com
Click to expand...
Nadal specifically said 2017 Federer was the best tennis of his career.
 
GoatNo1 said:
shorturl.at

Roger Federer: I am a better player now than I was a decade ago

Tennis - Former World No.1 Roger Federer feels that he is a better player now as compared to what he was 10 years ago.
shorturl.at shorturl.at

August 17, 2015
“I think I'm a better player now than when I was at 24 because I've practised for another 10 years and I've got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “I might not have the confidence I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it's ever been, I volley better than I have in the past.”

“I think I've had to adapt to a new generation of players again.”
Click to expand...
Roger stated in 2019 that he felt he'd peaked again. If only, we, his fans, had such honesty.
 
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Racquet_smash said:
It was the hardest version for Nadal to face because the matchup dynamics changed completely.
Click to expand...
And 2017 AO still was almost the same match as 2009 AO...
Nadal was up a break in the 5th Set of both (y) except in 2009 Nadal got another break, while in 2017 Federer broke twice.
It was really just 10 minutes of Federer hitting the backhand better in 2017 that changed everything.

inflation_era said:
Whatever the case may be regarding peak, Nadal could not beat 'peak' Federer in 2017.
Click to expand...
Nadal could beat peak Federer in 2017, because Nadal was up a break in the 5th Set of 2017 AO Final, despite being nowhere near his physical prime...
 
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Bride of Alcaraz said:
And 2017 AO still was almost the same match as 2009 AO...
Nadal was up a break in the 5th Set of both (y) except in 2009 Nadal got another break, while in 2017 Federer broke twice.
It was really just 10 minutes of Federer hitting the backhand better in 2017 that changed everything.


Nadal could beat peak Federer in 2017, because Nadal was up a break in the 5th Set of 2017 AO Final, despite being nowhere near his physical prime...
Click to expand...

Factually, he could not. That's what the data indicated. And if Fed was peak in 2017, Nadal was even peakier. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.
 
socallefty said:
I think that watching him play over the years typically only on hard courts, his hard court play in 2015 was the highest caliber I’ve seen. I think Nadal didn’t play him much that year as he was in bad form and not making it late in tournaments. I’m not surprised at all that Federer said he was playing his best tennis that year. 2017 was not a big drop off from 2015 though, but he could win the Slams without having to face Novak (at his BOAT level) in Slam finals like he did in 2015.

When I watched matches live during that period, I remember feeling that the level of play in ATP finals/semis in general was much better than a decade prior and this was true for Federer also and not just for other players. On TTW, this is considered heresy, but many people I respect in real life like coaches (former pro players) and former college players at my club feel the same also. And we feel like the level has continued to go up as pace/spin of shots/serves continues to rise while the movement needed to play defense has become quicker. It is so exciting to go to pro tournaments these days and watch the amazing athleticism of the modern ATP players. There may not be as many superstars, but the general level of play is awesome.

I would rather have my ‘eye test’ match the opinions of Federer and Nadal rather than the TTW orthodoxy.
Click to expand...
As would I. While it may lead to my getting trolled by ironic, or not-so-ironic, posts, I would rather be aligned with those who know their stuff.
 
aldeayeah said:
Yep. Nadal is lucky Fed wasn't born 10 years earlier.
Click to expand...
If Fed was born 10 years earlier he might have been aced and slapped into oblivion by Pete and 'Dre, and then never would have arrived. I'd say Nadal is unlucky this didn't happen, but we, the fans, are lucky for the same reason.
 
So nice when a legit Fed and tennis fan brings up reality how it is.

It is done, not only Fed himself but now Nadal his great rival came to the conclusion that old Fed was the best he ever reached.

But of course, now fake Fed fans will go on a rant like this

giphy.gif
 
Jonesy said:
So nice when a legit Fed and tennis fan brings up reality how it is.

It is done, not only Fed himself but now Nadal his great rival came to the conclusion that old Fed was the best he ever reached.

But of course, now fake Fed fans will go on a rant like this

giphy.gif
Click to expand...
I'm glad my allegiances come through. Yes, I love Roger, backhand and all, but above all, my duty is to the sport, and as an honest fan I have to admit to hard realities even when they don't put my guy on top. Yes, Novak ended up with gold, but still, #3 ain't bad, and heck, bronze even has a sort of similar hue to gold - if you really look for it.
 
Jonesy said:
So nice when a legit Fed and tennis fan brings up reality how it is.

It is done, not only Fed himself but now Nadal his great rival came to the conclusion that old Fed was the best he ever reached.

But of course, now fake Fed fans will go on a rant like this

giphy.gif
Click to expand...
Nadal is a fedfan
 
GoatNo1 said:
August 17, 2015
“I think I'm a better player now than when I was at 24 because I've practised for another 10 years and I've got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “I might not have the confidence I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it's ever been, I volley better than I have in the past.”
Click to expand...
Federer here focuses entirely on technical matters; it's not worth trying to debate most of these, except that I think he's dead wrong about his forehand. It was definitely better in the 2004-2006 time frame.

But the more important point is what Federer does not say: "I'm noticeably faster than I was 10 years ago. My reflexes are quicker; my hand-eye coordination has improved; and my stamina right now is at its career peak." In other words, he ignores the impacts of aging on being a tennis-playing athlete, as opposed to merely a guy who wields a tennis racket in precise ways.
 
JMR said:
Federer here focuses entirely on technical matters; it's not worth trying to debate most of these, except that I think he's dead wrong about his forehand. It was definitely better in the 2004-2006 time frame.

But the more important point is what Federer does not say: "I'm noticeably faster than I was 10 years ago. My reflexes are quicker; my hand-eye coordination has improved; and my stamina right now is at its career peak." In other words, he ignores the impacts of aging on being a tennis-playing athlete, as opposed to merely a guy who wields a tennis racket in precise ways.
Click to expand...
or perhaps he was not so much declined in those things as his fans want to claim. he thought that things he improved weight more than those and that his biggest obstacle as player he was in 2015 vs 10 years before was his confidence.

 
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