2017 Madrid Open Final - [4] Nadal vs [8] Thiem

[Gary Duane]

which big matches has Thiem done that in?

The question is not about what big matches he has done this in but rather what else he has to do so that he is not in these situations in the first place.

Then he can use the mental toughness to win instead of trying to catch up.

Honest question: Who do you think would have done better against Nadal today as he is now playing?

Are you one of the people who says that the only reason he has won so much on clay, not only this year but every other year, is simply because everyone else is no good?

 

[Nostradamus]

don't tell me who won. I haven't watched the match yet..... but was it a good match ???

 

[Gary Duane]

I thought Thiem would go away 1-6 in the final set, but he actually hung in there, so props to him. Coming "close" to Nadal on clay is as good as it will get for these guys.

Well, at least you walked back your earlier comments. I wonder if you will ever be fair enough to give a little credit to Rafa for doing what he is doing this year.

 

[marc45]

no pool dive with the kids, so no ear infection?

(the ball models get a private session?)

yes they do!

 

[Deleted member 512391]

I'm glad that Thiem didn't choke, but was simply outplayed. Saving those three set points in the first set is a very positive sign for him and he held his nerves in several matches during this tournament. Now, he is third in the race, so we may finally have some young star in the near future.
Nadal is playing great, it's still extremely hard to hit through him on clay, even though he's lost a half-step and is almost 31. His backhand, in particular, is impressive and he's improved that shot a lot. He is clearly a no.1 favorite for the FO and has had a phenomenal year. I can only imagine how scary this year would've been for him if it wasn't for Fed.

 

[The Green Mile]

What about Rafa's cross-court backhand though? It's so good right now...

 

[eliars]

Thiem was extremely clutch on his own serve and didn't give up in the second set. I didn't expect a close second set after the frustrating loss of the tiebreak in the first and the close 2nd game in the 2nd set.

Overall, Nadal was just too good and Thiem had to hit so many great balls to finally hit a winner. Nadal got some shots that were already top notch. Thiem had quite a high number of UE on his forehand, but they were not really unforced, as Thiem thought it was necessary to hit with great risk to finally hit through Nadal.

Best clay match of the season and I'd love to see a rematch at the French Open final. Thiem is really playing good at clay and I was really surprised when they showed the stat where Thiem was hitting more RPM on the average topspin forehand than Nadal. Thiem needs better court positioning against Nadal though, he was too far behind and had not chance to run down the dropshots Nadal played perfectly. But I wouldn't be surprised if Thiem could beat Nadal on clay - hoping for another encounter at Rome.

Really? Can you find that stat?

 

[metsman]

Some of the top players in the game. Dimitrov is six in the ATP race this year. Goffin in QF of RG last year to make SF (sounds pretty clutch for a young player.) Federer in Stuttgart was some great cluctchness. The same Fed who almost made Final of Wimbledon. Close, but no cigar in Thiem's first masters 1000 versus the King of Clay. Betterer.

so 3 times, and one is a 250 against rusty grandpa.

 

[metsman]

Only if you remind me how old Muster was when he won his first RG.

what does this have to do with once again exposing your tenuous grasp on anything before 2014?

 

[eliars]

ATP Media Info‏Verified account @ATPMediaInfo
Big Four has won 24 of last 25 #ATPMasters1000 titles (96%). Also 37 of 40 since 2013, 75 of 85 since 2008 and 96 of 112 since 2005. #MMOpen

That's just crazy.

 

[metsman]

The question is not about what big matches he has done this in but rather what else he has to do so that he is not in these situations in the first place.

Then he can use the mental toughness to win instead of trying to catch up.

Honest question: Who do you think would have done better against Nadal today as he is now playing?

Are you one of the people who says that the only reason he has won so much on clay, not only this year but every other year, is simply because everyone else is no good?

Thiem did fine against Rafa today considering his last match finished so late. Nothing extremely impressive as Nadal was not playing all that well and had to come through on some BP to save himself. But I'm not going to hate on Thiem for this performance like I did for his poorer Barcelona performance. He's at least making some moves, not his fault the rest of his generation was subpar.

By complaint is with the whole generation being pathetically weak than any one player. By far the weakest series of generations in history. Never before has there been anywhere near such a gap between all time great players. It's a complete joke that Federer and Nadal have swept the big events so far with barely any challenge from the younger generation, no matter how well they are playing (which is good, but not close to prime level). I expected both Federer and Nadal to have their swansongs and win another major, but I never expected that they would be completely dominating tennis again, as great as they are.

 

[Meles]

what does this have to do with once again exposing your tenuous grasp on anything before 2014?

It has to do with exposing your tenuous grasp of most everything. Muster was near his 28th year when he cleaned up at RG by the way.

 

[marc45]

Really? Can you find that stat?

Tennis Channel had it...but what did it matter, as stated above, when he's hitting it 5 feet behind the baseline?

a name that came to me on another thread, Fernando Gonzales..just a thought...I think Thiem will have a better career, but...

 

[Meles]

so 3 times, and one is a 250 against rusty grandpa.

Those are just the biggest names and the most electric ones. Thiem comes back quite often to varying degrees. At the end of set if he's in the hunt he's a very tough nut.

 

[Meles]

Really? Can you find that stat?

They popped it up midway nearing the end of the first set. The RPMs for both were around 3500. Thiem was over 10 kph harder for speed, but then he's also back further so doesn't really translate into domination especially when Nadal has a speed advantage plus seems to read Thiem like a book.

 

[Meles]

don't tell me who won. I haven't watched the match yet..... but was it a good match ???

Must see is all I can say.

 

[cc0509]

Did much better than Djoko at Madrid or do you still stick with your defending RG champ dogma. Djokovic barely beat two washed up players and got destoryed in the semi. Peace and love.

Yes, Thiem and Goffin are doing much better than Djokovic lately on clay but am I supposed to throw a party because they are making it to SF of a Masters 1000, one final of a Masters 1000 or one QF or SF in all of the slams? They are both tier 2 players. They aren't yet tier 1 players and I don't see how either one will closely threaten Nadal at RG. Call me crazy. The reality is IF Djokovic somehow miraculously managed to find close to his best form in time for RG (which he won't IMO), he would be much more of a danger to Nadal than Thiem or Goffin! Get real.

 

[chjtennis]

Great run by Nadal. The only thing that can stop Nadal now is fatigue. He can clean sweep the clay season.

 

[Meles]

Very different style of play. Thiem can't just snap his fingers and play like prime Djokovic. He plays more traditional clay tennis. Very heavy topspin hit from well beyond the baseline that veer into the court at the last split second. It works against most opponents on clay except the one guy in the world better at the same thing

Exactly and the scale can tip rather easily in this type of game. Thiem is very, very close. We all know that Nadal might not like Madrid, but it seems like it would be even higher bouncing which didn't seem to hurt him versus Thiem. I don't honestly know what kind of clay Thiem prefers or would be best versus Nadal. I'd think Thiem would like it heavy and wet like last RG, but honestly I have no idea whatsoever. You?

 

[eliars]

They popped it up midway nearing the end of the first set. The RPMs for both were around 3500. Thiem was over 10 kph harder for speed, but then he's also back further so doesn't really translate into domination especially when Nadal has a speed advantage plus seems to read Thiem like a book.

I really like Thiem's forehand a lot. It's his backhand I think he needs to take earlier. He gives up too much court positioning on that wing. You can not do that, especially not against Rafa.

 

[marc45]

don't tell me who won. I haven't watched the match yet..... but was it a good match ???

eh, you're Nostradamus

 

[Meles]

Yes, Thiem and Goffin are doing much better than Djokovic lately on clay but am I supposed to throw a party because they are making it to SF of a Masters 1000, one final of a Masters 1000 or one QF or SF in all of the slams? They are both tier 2 players. They aren't yet tier 1 players and I don't see how either one will closely threaten Nadal at RG. Call me crazy. The reality is IF Djokovic somehow miraculously managed to find close to his best form in time for RG (which he won't IMO), he would be much more of a danger to Nadal than Thiem or Goffin! Get real.

We basically agree. Thiem's form is not as good as Djokovic in 2015 and probably 2016.

The fact remains while Djokoray are on the rocks and too low to bring their games up to challenge Nadal, Thiem is your only hope cc. I know him well and he's a momentum player who thrives on playing. He should not be too tuckered out should Nadal make their QF date in Rome. The progress from Barcelona to Madrid is positive for Thiem and expecting him to play even better in Rome. I'd be optimistic, but not entirely sure if the change in the conditions would be favorable in their matchup. Thiem is managing his schedule well and short of some surprise draw at RG (unseeded Delpo as first match) he should be nicely rested for RG and able to build up momentum as the tournament moves along. Perhaps Fed will save the day and soften up Nadal in semi or something for Thiem to save the day and win RG. Not too late to get on board the top RG contender's bandwagon.

Let's review. Thiem plays first masters 1000 and is one point away from winning first set and one point away from putting 2nd on even terms. Not bad you must admit especially when Nadal in prime (but not peak) form this year.

 

[marc45]

aw...

BreakPointBR‏ @BreakPointBR
When Rafa talked amazing things of Thiem


https://twitter.com/BreakPointBR/status/863830598124789760

 

[Meles]

I really like Thiem's forehand a lot. It's his backhand I think he needs to take earlier. He gives up too much court positioning on that wing. You can not do that, especially not against Rafa.

I don't see Thiem beating Rafa at RG after this match. With his current game his best bet is to grind with Rafa, yet he simply does not have the stamina to do that this year in five sets (might be able to straight set Rafa on the right day in two sets.) In another year Thiem may have the power and some additional stamina to challenge Nadal. Thiem is a very slippery customer. Despite being dominated in neutral rallies he served very well today after horrid start (73% first serve rate) and did better than I'd hoped on his own 2nd serve points (~53%). His offense was very close. On Rafa's serve he struggled more, but got the early break and nearly another when Rafa serving out the match. His only hope with the current game is to grind and massage points with Rafa and somehow sneak breaks and keep afloat on serve. Nadal returns Thiem's serve amazingly well. Against anyone else the Thiem superkicker first serve quickly destroys the opponent (Wawa handled it well too). Against Rafa those shots on the ad side keep coming back with too much steam for Thiem to do his one-two punch. He's the only player who does this to Thiem and its rather amazing to see. I expect Thiem has learned a lot from this match and hopefully we have another good workout for Rafa on Friday in Rome.

On the backhand side. Thiem was likely forced to hit heavy with Rafa. He can absolutely nuke the ball from that side and I think he'd been better off begging off runing around to the forehand and nuking his backhand at Rafa. He did it just a few times. Thiem's forehand was resplendent earlier in the week, but Rafa's high balls make it turn into a more spinnier shot or something that gets away from Thiem long. I'd also would have like to see more Thiem slices. Sometimes he would try to hit a backhand hard from the back of the court and it would just get to Rafa quicker and he's angle it away before Thiem got into position. Today's match was quite a change in tactics from Barcelona so will be interesting to see what happens in Rome Friday.

 

[Meles]

I think there should be no dispute on the two 'youngsters/upcoming players' who might - MIGHT! - be able to become a challenge on clay to Rafa, and their names are most definitely Thiem and Goffin. They've been the only two players being able to push Nadal to even having to play a TB, when Rafa was at least very close to his best level.

That said, I disagree with you on Goffin being the biggest challenge - he's already 26, 27 years old, and imho, reaching his peak level by now.
Added up to his very slight frame, I cannot see him do more damage, unless he might hit the 2009-Davydenko-level of playing, which I'm not too sure about if he'll ever be able to.
Thiem, however, is just entering his peak, and may well be able to add on to his level of play during the coming seasons - all of this, of course, only being a matter should Rafa's peak of nowadays come to an end.

Both have impressed me with their tenacity, NOT giving up after having lost the 1st set in a gruelsome high-class TB.
The Kygios's, Zverev's, Raonic's, etc. might do well to learn a lesson from Goffin and Thiem in this regard.

 

[Meles]

Thiem is on another level to goffin. Over 5 sets thiem will be a nightmare for all but nadal.

As for Djokovic he is miles away from where he needs to be. His aura has gone now and Rome is now a must win tournament for him if he has any designs to defend his FO Crown.

Nadal is on another level at the moment to any other player. He has dominated on hard and clay. Yes Federer neat him but nadal still made three finals on hard court. Federer has not even turned up on clay so nadal the one with the aura on all surfaces at the moment .

Nice user name. Wecome aboard. Looking forward to Thiemination of La Decima. Friday in Rome QF is another practice session for Thiem against the champ.

 

[cc0509]

We basically agree. Thiem's form is not as good as Djokovic in 2015 and probably 2016.

The fact remains while Djokoray are on the rocks and too low to bring their games up to challenge Nadal, Thiem is your only hope cc. I know him well and he's a momentum player who thrives on playing. He should not be too tuckered out should Nadal make their QF date in Rome. The progress from Barcelona to Madrid is positive for Thiem and expecting him to play even better in Rome. I'd be optimistic, but not entirely sure if the change in the conditions would be favorable in their matchup. Thiem is managing his schedule well and short of some surprise draw at RG (unseeded Delpo as first match) he should be nicely rested for RG and able to build up momentum as the tournament moves along. Perhaps Fed will save the day and soften up Nadal in semi or something for Thiem to save the day and win RG. Not too late to get on board the top RG contender's bandwagon.

Let's review. Thiem plays first masters 1000 and is one point away from winning first set and one point away from putting 2nd on even terms. Not bad you must admit especially when Nadal in prime (but not peak) form this year.

Thiem isn't going to win RG! He lost in straights to Nadal in Madrid and Barcelona. Great, so he made the first set close in Madrid! Progress! But he's not a big threat for Nadal at RG IMO.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Exactly and the scale can tip rather easily in this type of game. Thiem is very, very close. We all know that Nadal might not like Madrid, but it seems like it would be even higher bouncing which didn't seem to hurt him versus Thiem. I don't honestly know what kind of clay Thiem prefers or would be best versus Nadal. I'd think Thiem would like it heavy and wet like last RG, but honestly I have no idea whatsoever. You?

He liked the clay in Argentina but that was a different Nadal altogether.

I think he'll have a hard time against this Nadal anywhere.

 

[ANDYbhGENIUS]

Give Thiem credit. He played better today than most people predicted he would. He had good chances to steal the first set tiebreak.

"Steal" is a very weak choice of words, Dominic played to win, and a steal was nowhere in the vicinity, at any point in that set. It was powerful play to win.

And what most people predicted is not of any interest, not any whatsoever. In my opinion.

 

[Meles]

Guys, chill. Thiem has broken him before in this match.

15-40 at 4-5. So close in this match, but so far.

 

[Meles]

Did Thiem have any real chances to win the first set or just rolled over?

He rolled over from 0-40 at 4-5 in the set and saved 3 set points. Several more in the breaker, but Nadal too tough on serve when Thiem had set points. Still Thiem had no real chance.

 

[Meles]

Yeah, this all sounds easy but Nadal's clay level this year is certainly higher than anything I saw from him since 2013-14 at least, which means he's expected to win every match he plays.

The worrying sign for the younger guys should be the fact that they can't beat him on other surfaces.

Nadal has been a great hard court player, so that surface where the young players suffer from high bouncing Poly shots may be their worst shot at Nadal. Yikes thats scary to think about if takes this momentum to US hard court season.

 

[Meles]

nadal and gazelle escape..

good TB

Shame on you @Gazelle

 

[cc0509]

Thiem is gonna be the best player on this surface 2-3 years from now, maybe even next year depending on Nadal. It took some insane shots from Nadal to win that set and for whatever reason I feel Thiem can play even better than he has so far.

So when Thiem is 27 years old and Nadal is 34 and possibly retired that's when Thiem will start to win clay Masters 1000s or perhaps the FO? We have to wait until the demise of Nadal for that to happen? Didn't Thiem himself recently say that he can't think of being #1 as long as Fedal are playing? This is the type of player who excites most people on this board these days? What happened to youngsters competing well enough with legends and winning?

 

[The Green Mile]

High quality straight sets win, very entertaining match. A shame I missed it live, but the time difference was too much. Rafa is a damn beast, and if he can keep this kind of form up, it's going to be extremely difficult for anyone to defeat him in the upcoming weeks. Straight sets doesn't do Thiem's performance justice, just like it didn't do Goffin's performance either. Both played a great match.

People fawn over Rafa, Fed and Djoker but then crucify any of the young guns who can't beat them in the biggest tournaments? Come on. Sometimes, the best players ever are simply too good on the day. Though it's not always the case (I'm looking at you Raonic).

Thiem did great in his 1st Masters final, and is back to his career high of #7.

 

[metsman]

It has to do with exposing your tenuous grasp of most everything. Muster was near his 28th year when he cleaned up at RG by the way.

Yes I know. I have no idea why that is at all relevant to this. On the other hand you seemingly had no idea until recently that Nadal was hurt the 2nd half of 2009 and for some reason thought Federer fans did not acknowledge that.

 

[cc0509]

@Gary Duane why do you have what BeatlesFan said as your signature as if what he said was something untrue or strange? What has Thiem done this year exactly? Did he win any Masters 1000s or slams that I missed? Is he taking Nadal to three close sets on clay or is he losing in straights?

 

[Meles]

Unavoidable breakage.

3 SP's for Nadal.

Thiem digs out of 0-40 holes all the time these days.

 

[Meles]

Yes I know. I have no idea why that is at all relevant to this. On the other hand you seemingly had no idea until recently that Nadal was hurt the 2nd half of 2009 and for some reason thought Federer fans did not acknowledge that.

I full well knew that and saw him go down to Soderling. What I'm saying is he was having physical issues in the clay court season that came to a point at RG. We know from 2016 that he'll play through anything and was on a downward trajectory from the elbow until he was forced to pull out of RG. 2009 was clearly the same. I'm glad to hear you acknowledge it.

 

[Meles]

Yep, Thiem crumbles as expected.

Brilliant foresight.

 

[Meles]

@Gary Duane why do you have what BeatlesFan said as your signature as if what he said was something untrue or strange? What has Thiem done this year exactly? Did he win any Masters 1000s or slams that I missed? Is he taking Nadal to three close sets on clay or is he losing in straights?

I have two logins cc. Haven't you figured that out?

 

[Meles]

Thiem isn't going to win RG! He lost in straights to Nadal in Madrid and Barcelona. Great, so he made the first set close in Madrid! Progress! But he's not a big threat for Nadal at RG IMO.

2nd set was close to cc. We can argue or watch their next match Friday in Rome.

 

[cc0509]

2nd set was close to cc. We can argue or watch their next match Friday in Rome.

You mean if they play again in Rome, Thiem will take Nadal to three close sets or win?

 

[Nadalgaenger]

"Steal" is a very weak choice of words, Dominic played to win, and a steal was nowhere in the vicinity, at any point in that set. It was powerful play to win.

And what most people predicted is not of any interest, not any whatsoever. In my opinion.

Fair point. I say that only to underscore the fact that he saved three set points to take it to the breaker. It was a tight set and could have gone either way.

 

[Charleneriva]

2nd set was close to cc. We can argue or watch their next match Friday in Rome.

If they play in Rome again that will be their 3rd meeting in 3 weeks . Do you by any chance have the stats for the most meetings in some short period of time, Meles?

 

[marc45]

hey, just noticed, you're a guru...like Pepe

if we all keep posting we can all be like Pepe!

 

[DRII]

what Nadal is doing so well is being clutch on break points against him (saving break points)!

almost like old times again...

 

[The Green Mile]

If they play in Rome again that will be their 3rd meeting in 3 weeks . Do you by any chance have the stats for the most meetings in some short period of time, Meles?

I remember Dimitrov and Fog met in all three clay masters in 2015. Fed/Delpo met a lot early on in 2012 as well.

 

[Charleneriva]

I remember Dimitrov and Fog met in all three clay masters in 2015. Fed/Delpo met a lot early on in 2012 as well.

I mean in just a very short span of time. Meeting in all 3 clay Masters is in 4 weeks, doesn't beat 3/3.

Just checked. The shortest span for 3 Fed vs DP matches out their 8 encounters in 2012 was from Rotterdam>>Dubai>>IW, and that was 22 days. Those along with the other 5 spanned throughout the whole year from AO to WTF. If Rafa vs Thiem #3 this year happens it will be in only 19 days.

And if they play again at RG I think that might be a record or sth, at least since year ####.

This is just for fun.

 

[Gary Duane]

@Gary Duane why do you have what BeatlesFan said as your signature as if what he said was something untrue or strange? What has Thiem done this year exactly? Did he win any Masters 1000s or slams that I missed? Is he taking Nadal to three close sets on clay or is he losing in straights?

Because of this:

"Nadal will annihilate him today, watch and see"

Did you see a player get annihilated?

Unlike many other people I have been saying since the HC season that Nadal looks a lot like he did in 2013.

I am consistent in saying that Nadal has been a force of nature on clay most years since around 2005. Many people made a grave error in assuming that late 2014 through 2016 was what we should now expect from Nadal.

There is no humiliation in losing two close sets on clay to 2017 Nadal any more than it was humiliating for Nadal to lose seven times in a row to Djokovic when he was all but unbeatable or to lose three in a row to Federer before the clay season.

It's just stupid to post "wait and see" predictions right before a match.

If I do that and turn out to be 100% wrong, I deserve to be ribbed.

I was actually rooting for Nadal today, but if Thiem had somehow won I would have been happy for him.

I simply don't buy the idea that just because great players win that means that the players who lose, no matter how hard they try, are losers.

It's sour grapes and frankly an insult to younger players who are doing everything they can to break through.

Everyone here - and this includes you - should be open-mindedly looking for reasons for veteran success other than the "young players are hopeless" explanation for why players close to 30 and over 30 are now doing so well and have been doing very well for a few years.

What Nadal is doing right now should be a wake-up call telling people to check their assumptions at the door and to cut more slack for younger players who, for all you guys know, may be dominating in a similar way when THEY get older.

I'm not saying it is so, just saying that it deserves open-minded investigation.