2017 Madrid Open SF - [2] Djokovic vs [4] Nadal

Who?

  • Total voters
    93
  • Poll closed .
Djolo
Mainad said:
Nadal's first win over Djokovic in THREE years. Sounds crazy!

This should boost Nadal's confidence even more with Rome and then RG just round the corner. No longer is he just beating lower-ranked players, he is now back to beating the best!!
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Djokovic is no longer "the best". Andy Murray can't even make it to a final. The only true test would be meeting Fed on clay, which may not happen. Fed may still be in Nadal's head (for the first time ever and no one is not in another's head when they lose that many times in a row), even as well as Nadal is playing. Right now Nadal has yet to play a hot Wawrinka, a hot Fed, a hot Djoker, a hot Murray, etc on clay. He had trouble with Fognini again, so he isn't in peak form, either. Everyone else is just a pretender.
 
cucio said:
Salutations, Senti-man! As well as can be in these strange times we all are living through. What about you?

How are things around here? Strong or weak poasting era? Is the fresh green army replenishing its ranks at an acceptable rate?

Hey, I just looked at my join date. 10 years already! Man, I'm getting old for this, I should retire.
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Sadly, the universe has run out of it's supply of fresh green twolls. It's been a weak poasting era here, with trolls becoming entertaining and popular rather than irritating. 90s Clay was ruling the roost here till he got banned, many epic/classic threads got deleted, you really missed some great laughs.

Otherwise, i think you should come back. An infusion of some maturity would do this forum good.
 
GabeT said:
I really don't get all this "Nole is finished" nonsense. Have we learned nothing from Federer and Nadal? How many times did we read that both would never win another important tournament again. These ATGs are all time greats for a reason.
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Word, you said it.

Federer, Rafa and Djokovic stop winning majors when they actually retire.

After 2013, many thought Roger would never reach even SF of a major
After 2015, many thought Rafa would never reach another major final

Same the case with Novak, he will be back.
 
coloskier said:
Djolo

Djokovic is no longer "the best". Andy Murray can't even make it to a final. The only true test would be meeting Fed on clay, which may not happen. Fed may still be in Nadal's head (for the first time ever and no one is not in another's head when they lose that many times in a row), even as well as Nadal is playing. Right now Nadal has yet to play a hot Wawrinka, a hot Fed, a hot Djoker, a hot Murray, etc on clay. He had trouble with Fognini again, so he isn't in peak form, either. Everyone else is just a pretender.
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The true test in 2017 is going to be if Nadal continues to dominate Thiem.

Thiem by my stats has easily been the second best clay player of this year and is very much in the range right now of clay specialists in the 90s.

He has not quite hit the level of peak Fed and Djokovic, but he is very close. Fed is getting too much credit this year on clay when he has not even played on clay.

Djokovic and Murray are simply not major factors on clay this year. It would be a miracle for them to totally turn their play around for Rome and RG. They would have to pull a Stan to do it, but there history does not indicate coming out of nowhere in the manner of Stan.
 
cc0509 said:
Djokovic has humiliated Nadal for a few years when Nadal was struggling.
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You are not humiliated if you lose when unfit on the other hand humiliation is when you are fit and well and still lose. You'll find that Djoker is the one who is humiliated.
 
GabeT said:
No need to come up with excuses. Nadal's level collapsed the last two years or so and no, no one thinks it because of injuries. No one.
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Nadal is sidelined for 15+ months since 2012 and you think no one thinks his level dropped because of his injuries?
 
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Sysyphus said:
LOL

surely Nadal is the smart choice, but I can't get past the feeling that Novak really knows how to play Nadal. If he's up for it, he should still possess the level to be a tougher challenge than the Goffins and Thiems Nadal has been feasting on this clay season.

What are your expectations going into the match?
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We are traveling with the baby so have not been following much.

1) it's clear that Djokovic and Murray are undergoing massive crises.
2) it's also clear no one currently on tour has the belief to stop Nadal on clay
3) which makes me think Federer will jump in the fray and try and steal a French open. And I'm bullish about his chances.
 
I'm watching the match now, and just finished the 1st set. Just wow. Talk about the difference in confidence, my goodness. One of the most evident sets you'll ever see between them, amazing to see the whole set play out and how they both approached it.

I hear the 2nd set was better for Novak though.
 
Gary Duane said:
The true test in 2017 is going to be if Nadal continues to dominate Thiem.

Thiem by my stats has easily been the second best clay player of this year and is very much in the range right now of clay specialists in the 90s.

He has not quite hit the level of peak Fed and Djokovic, but he is very close. Fed is getting too much credit this year on clay when he has not even played on clay.

Djokovic and Murray are simply not major factors on clay this year. It would be a miracle for them to totally turn their play around for Rome and RG. They would have to pull a Stan to do it, but there history does not indicate coming out of nowhere in the manner of Stan.
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Thiem just reached his career first CC masters final and had to save 5 MPs in the 4th round to do so. To say that it's premature to compare him to 90s CC specialists or peak Fed and Novak would be an understatement.

Performances in big tourneys are what makes player a star and earns respect/reputation, not a stats sheet. No one remembers of the top of their head Guga's serve/return % but they do know his 3 FO titles or even his routing of peak Fed in 2004 at the FO. Mind you, I like Thiem's game and he does seem to be turning into a genuine CC contender but he definitely needs to do much more on the big stages before he's put in the same conversations as some of the big names you're generously comparing him to.

We should also keep in mind that performances in CC warm-ups historically aren't the best indicators for FO aside from the unique case of Nadal. Plenty of examples at FO of players going deep/winning who otherwise did diddly squat on clay that year.

I agree about Fed though, people are really overrating his chances at the FO. It's hard for me to see him even as a contender this year despite his career excellence in slams and this year's resurgence on HC.
 
What I noticed in that match as well was how often Nadal was serving to Novaks fh. He was doing it with the same regularity as the slice to bh vs other players. I'm guessing it's the new go to serve vs Novak and it has garnered surprisingly good results--Novak seems to have much more trouble timing the fh return.
 
zagor said:
Thiem just reached his career first CC masters final and had to save 5 MPs in the 4th round to do so. To say that it's premature to compare him to 90s CC specialists or peak Fed and Novak would be an understatement.
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I think we are missing each other.

Of course we can't talk about a great career until it happens. But we can look at careers from the past and how they rise. There are patterns, and one is that game% and point% follow certain trends as players go from breaking into the tour, just getting past playing challenger level, futures, and so on, then moving to full time ATP schedules, and finally starting to win small tournaments.

Thiem is not at the level of peak Fed and Djokovic because his numbers are not there yet. But they are as close as they could be without getting there, and if those level stay steady for the rest of this season, on clay, or go up a point or so next year, he will be the real deal.

You may be confusing me with Meles. ;)

I agree with him a lot, but I am much more cautious and conservative. For instance, I am not yet one bit convinced that Thiem is tracking towards being a dominant player on faster surfaces, though I'm not convinced he won't get there. But on clay he is going the right way, and I don't think anyone else is right now.
Performances in big tourneys are what makes player a star and earns respect/reputation, not a stats sheet. No one remembers of the top of their head Guga's serve/return % but they do know his 3 FO titles or even his routing of peak Fed in 2004 at the FO.
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Kuerten, 2001, won RG, 61% of games for the year on clay, 55% of points, 88% of games won on serve. Just on those stats I would pick him as a likely RG winner, knowing nothing at all about his game.

Here are the guys on my list, in order according to peak years by game%:

Nadal
Courier
Coria
Bruguera
Muster
Djokovic
Ferrer
Kuerten
Ferrero
Djokovic
Federer

As you can see, being on this list does not guarantee wining RG, and as we all know Federer and Djokovic only won it when Nadal was either not around to stop them or was well below his peak, or both. Coria needs to be weighted down because of his very weak serve. You may argue against Ferrer being on that list, and his weaker serve has hurt him.

But 8/11 on that list won RG. If Thiem ends up on that list, his chances of winning RG will be high, even if it can't happen this year.
We should also keep in mind that performances in CC warm-ups historically aren't the best indicators for FO aside from the unique case of Nadal. Plenty of examples at FO of players going deep/winning who otherwise did diddly squat on clay that year.
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Again, I just went down my list. I have the same stats for everyone who won RG over the last 25 years or so, and games for some people way earlier.

Nadal makes everyone else on clay look bad and has been doing it for most of his career. Other people got a break between RG 2014 and this year, and someone may get a break at RG if he gets injured or loses his mojo.

But being second to Nadal this year does not make that second player a normal #2 on clay.
 
ChrisRF said:
No problem! Different People, different preferences. :)

But how is it when you check the result? Or the moments before that? Not worried about a heart attack then? That can be way more dramatic than a live match which may always be a whitewash without critical situations as well. I couldn't stand the 50/50 moment of just looking for the result to be honest. :D
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Easy! Always accept mentally and emotionally your player has lost. When you see the result it either just confirms it or you end up being pleasantly wrong! No way am I going to put myself through stressful situations anymore. :)
 
GabeT said:
I really don't get all this "Nole is finished" nonsense. Have we learned nothing from Federer and Nadal? How many times did we read that both would never win another important tournament again. These ATGs are all time greats for a reason.
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You are right. Never count out an ATG. Nole is not done until he retires.
 
falstaff78 said:
We are traveling with the baby so have not been following much.

1) it's clear that Djokovic and Murray are undergoing massive crises.
2) it's also clear no one currently on tour has the belief to stop Nadal on clay
3) which makes me think Federer will jump in the fray and try and steal a French open. And I'm bullish about his chances.
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Fed himself would be the first to tell you that his chances on clay against Nadal would be slim. Even before he and all of us realized how good Nadal is this year on clay he was intent on skipping most of the clay season.

I think Fed is wise enough to know that his best chances for another Major are on fast surfaces. He's going to play gunslinger tennis if he even plays the FO. Yes, this could work, but the odds are not in his favor at all.
 
clayqueen said:
You are not humiliated if you lose when unfit on the other hand humiliation is when you are fit and well and still lose. You'll find that Djoker is the one who is humiliated.
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Djokovic humiliated Nadal in 2011 when Nadal was in his very prime. Please! Djokovic also did a nice job of humiliating Nadal in the past two years even though Nadal was struggling. It doesn't matter why he was struggling. He took to the court to play and Djokovic was the better player in the past two years. Don't be a hypocrite now that Djokovic is facing his hard times and Nadal is in better shape. Their rivalry has always been a good one with the winning streaks going back and forth between them. What is clear to me however is that on clay Nadal is the much better player than Djokovic when he's in decent form. If Djokovic isn't at his best he won't beat Nadal on clay IMO.
 
cc0509 said:
Djokovic humiliated Nadal in 2011 when Nadal was in his very prime. Please! Djokovic also did a nice job of humiliating Nadal in the past two years even though Nadal was struggling. It doesn't matter why he was struggling. He took to the court to play and Djokovic was the better player in the past two years. Don't be a hypocrite now that Djokovic is facing his hard times and Nadal is in better shape. Their rivalry has always been a good one with the winning streaks going back and forth between them. What is clear to me however is that on clay Nadal is the much better player than Djokovic when he's in decent form. If Djokovic isn't at his best he won't beat Nadal on clay IMO.
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Grow up. I think you are using the word 'humiliate' as some kind of therapy.
 
clayqueen said:
Grow up.
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What a response! :rolleyes:

It's you who needs to grow up. You've been hiding in your cave for two and a half years while Djokovic was swatting a struggling Nadal away like a fly. Now the tables have turned but their rivalry and winning streaks have always gone back and forth. On slow hard court Djokovic is the better player. On clay Nadal is the better player. Try and be a tiny bit objective!:oops:
 
cc0509 said:
Djokovic humiliated Nadal in 2011 when Nadal was in his very prime. Please! Djokovic also did a nice job of humiliating Nadal in the past two years even though Nadal was struggling. It doesn't matter why he was struggling.
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You sound like someone suffering from depression and you are making your self feel better by belittling Nadal. Sadly, he doesn't care what you think.
 
cc0509 said:
What a response! :rolleyes:

It's you who needs to grow up. You've been hiding in your cave for two and a half years while Djokovic was swatting a struggling Nadal away like a fly. Now the tables have turned but their rivalry and winning streaks have always gone back and forth. On slow hard court Djokovic is the better player. On clay Nadal is the better player. Try and be a tiny bit objective!:oops:
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At least I did not come here and put Djokovic down, I allowed his fans to enjoy his glory, unlike his fans.
 
cc0509 said:
What a response! :rolleyes:

It's you who needs to grow up. You've been hiding in your cave for two and a half years while Djokovic was swatting a struggling Nadal away like a fly. Now the tables have turned but their rivalry and winning streaks have always gone back and forth. On slow hard court Djokovic is the better player. On clay Nadal is the better player. Try and be a tiny bit objective!:oops:
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Hiding in your cave...


Roflmaooooo


Hell, forget the past two years ....how about til after this past January and March, lmaoooo
 
clayqueen said:
You sound like someone suffering from depression and you are making your self feel better by belittling Nadal. Sadly, he doesn't care what you think.
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Belittle Nadal? You must be joking. I like Nadal and constantly build him up! But the fact is that Djokovic has owned that h2h for the past two and a half years. The reasons why don't matter. Their rivalry has always been competitive and gone back and forth. Djokovic took advantage of Nadal's struggling form in the past couple of years as that's what he should have done. Nadal will do the same now that Djokovic is struggling. Maybe Djokovic will find good form again and come back and be on top in that rivalry again, maybe not. Nadal is the better clay court player and Djokovic is better on slow hard court. Don't let your biases cloud your judgement.

Djokovic isn't Nadal's biggest worry these days, it's Federer! :p
 
Cc0509 is a fair poster. He/she doesn't hate on any player at the expense of the other and usual calls it for what it is.

Let's try to be objective on this board and try to comment leaving our biases aside. Just because someone is a Nadal/fed/Djokovic fan doesn't mean that they have to worship the ground that these guys walk on. There is no harm in criticism when it is due.
 
cc0509 said:
Lying? I don't think so. I said outside of 2011 Madrid and Rome which was a year Djokovic dominated a Nadal in peakity peak form everywhere, Nadal had the upper hand over Djokovic on clay. The last time I checked the FO was played on clay and is the biggest clay event in the sport and you want to discount it? If you look at the FO record which is 6-1 for Nadal and then we are left with the Masters 1000 record outside of 2011, it was 7-4 in favor of Nadal. Thus my comment that Nadal had the upper hand on clay over Djokovic outside of 2011 was correct as the FO + Masters 1000 record during that time was 13-5 for Nadal.

Got it? Nadal is the superior clay court player and their h2h on clay proves that vividly. Nadal at his best on clay trumps Djokovic on clay. 2011 outside of the FO was the outlier where Nadal was his very peak and lost to Djokovic a couple of times at Masters 1000s. Unless Djokovic is at his best or close to it, he won't beat a good form Nadal on clay as I tried to tell people before this Madrid semi-final because we see what happened.
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Nadal was not at his peak in 2011, just stop contaminating your otherwise reasonable post.
 
Gary Duane said:
The true test in 2017 is going to be if Nadal continues to dominate Thiem.
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What has Thiem done this year, exactly? I totally fail to see why people hype this guy who has no results and is almost 24 years old. Nadal could dominate him until 2025 if he chooses to play that long. Nadal will annihilate him today, watch and see.

Fed could be woken up at 4:00 am in Dubai (after playing on nothing but HC's the last month) and dispose of Thiem on clay with little problem. People speak about Thiem like he's vintage Borg, I have no clue why.
 
DRII said:
Nadal was not at his peak in 2011, just stop contaminating your otherwise reasonable post.
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Three slam titles in 2010. Kept that form into 2011 where he made three other slam finals and bunch of masters finals and wins.

Djokovic was the reason Nadal didn't win another 3 that year. Nadal was as much peak/prime whatever you wanna call it, as he was in 2010 or any other multislam year he had, but the difference was Djokovic.
 
clayqueen said:
You sound like someone suffering from depression and you are making your self feel better by belittling Nadal. Sadly, he doesn't care what you think.
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Nobody on this forum cares what YOU think either. Seriously. And you'll come back with well blahblah I don't care about what any of you think, but this is a message board where communicating with other people is the point...so then you'd have to ask yourself, why are you even here?
 
BeatlesFan said:
What has Thiem done this year, exactly? I totally fail to see why people hype this guy who has no results and is almost 24 years old. Nadal could dominate him until 2025 if he chooses to play that long. Nadal will annihilate him today, watch and see.

Fed could be woken up at 4:00 am in Dubai (after playing on nothing but HC's the last month) and dispose of Thiem on clay with little problem. People speak about Thiem like he's vintage Borg, I have no clue why.
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That deserves a signature. I just gave you one.

If Nadal destroys Thiem today, you may look smart.

Personally I hate making predictions like that. They come back to haunt me about 50% of the time. ;)
 
Gary Duane said:
That deserves a signature. I just gave you one.

If Nadal destroys Thiem today, you may look smart.

Personally I hate making predictions like that. They come back to haunt me about 50% of the time. ;)
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Most people are expecting Thiem to lose, how would it make him look smart?

On the other hand, if Thiem wins then he looks like 90's clay with all the Thiem bashing in the past few days.
 
RF-18 said:
Three slam titles in 2010. Kept that form into 2011 where he made three other slam finals and bunch of masters finals and wins.

Djokovic was the reason Nadal didn't win another 3 that year. Nadal was as much peak/prime whatever you wanna call it, as he was in 2010 or any other multislam year he had, but the difference was Djokovic.
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