2017 Monte Carlo Final - [4] Rafael Nadal vs [15] Albert Ramos-Vinolas

Who wins the title?

  • Total voters
    57
Gary Duane said:
Are you sure it was that hot? Nadal hardly broke a sweat, and even this week I've seen sweat pouring off his nose. You don't put on warm clothing when the temperature is 75F.
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Not positive, but I remember the commentators saying 20 degrees before the first semi. Or it might have been Friday actually.
Also, turns out, 20 ain't 75 but a mere 68 (C to F ain't the easiest of tasks unless you're used to it). And I think it was cooler than that earlier in the week
 
cc0509 said:
Of course his play is nowhere near peak level but it doesn't have to be for him to win clay titles as the clay competition is woeful.

As for him being exposed by other players in the next 7 weeks and him getting wiped out from overplaying, good luck with that prediction. Nadal looked extremely solid at the FO last year before he was forced to withdraw with an injury. He puts everything into this part of the clay season and there's no question he will go all out again this year and now he has some confidence winning the MC title after making so many finals in 2017 and coming up short.

I said I would give myself time to see how all players looked on clay before I was confident with a FO prediction but I may have seen enough. Who is going to beat Nadal at the FO in best of five? Thiem? Kyrgios may be a contender but outlasting Nadal in best of five on clay? Doubtful. Wawrinka? I doubt it. Murray? Nope,can't see it. Then we come to Djokovic and unless he improves his clay court game tremendously (which I admit is possible), it's tough to see how he'll stop Nadal at the FO. A couple more clay warm-ups should tell the story to see where Djokovic is at in comparison to Nadal. As for Federer beating Nadal in best of five at the FO, he may have a better shot than any player these days but I don't think he will be able to do it, that is if he decides to play the FO at all.

So for me as of right this minute(which is open to change as the clay season progresses), Nadal is the favorite to win the FO. You need to be careful making such absolute statements such as Nadal will never win another slam or he will never win another FO and I believe you said both. It may come back to haunt you.
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Agree on everything - Djoko, Murray and Wawa can all beat him on their day at FO if he's not the Rafa of yester year, but neither are looking that likely. A resurgent Djoko would obviously stand the best chance
cc0509 said:
I think he means if Djokovic doesn't show up mentally and physically and improve his game on clay in the next few weeks.
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I did and I replied with this, but clayqueen was properly just trying to be funny
Chanwan said:
Are you being obtuse on purpose or just for the fun of it? It's taken to mean: If Djoko doesn't refind his inner fire/form or whatever you want to call it.
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Meles said:
Maybe, but hard call when the Bull not really pushed much by Mugalos who was absolutely horrible today.

I could take this match if the 2nd set had been the first and then we got more out of ARV in another set, but with today's first set this was a real atrocity and mug effort by ARV. Hard to tell much with this and Goffin travesty.
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I think you're making a basic error when you don't pay attention to beat-downs, no matter what round. These scores happen all over the place when a player is dominating. You start seeing all straight set wins and lots of 2s, 1s and 0s in the scores. The one blip was the second set loss to Edmund, but dissing a player because no one is stepping up is not wise when the dominant player is killing his opponents.

We'll see, but Rafa looks VERY dangerous to me this year...
 
Gary Duane said:
I think you're making a basic error when you don't pay attention to beat-downs, no matter what round. These scores happen all over the place when a player is dominating. You start seeing all straight set wins and lots of 2s, 1s and 0s in the scores. The one blip was the second set loss to Edmund, but dissing a player because no one is stepping up is not wise when the dominant player is killing his opponents.

We'll see, but Rafa looks VERY dangerous to me this year...
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One blip? :confused:
Wasn't Edmund doing alright in the 3rd as well, until he started to misfire?
Didn't Schwartzman break Rafa 4 (!!) times in two sets on his beloved MC clay (and lead him in both sets iirc)?
Didn't Goffin lead 4-2 in the first before Mourier decided to meddle?

I'm sure Rafa will take tremendous confidence from this week and build on his win. And he showed plenty of good stuff during the week, including today. But he wasn't dominating like the Rafa of old.

And when you've made 2 winners and 9 unforced errors after 4,5 games in a Masters final, you most certainly can be expected to do better.

All that said, Rafa will be the one to overcome for the field on clay this year, that I agree with.
 
Chanwan said:
One blip? :confused:
Wasn't Edmund doing alright in the 3rd as well, until he started to misfire?
Didn't Schwartzman break Rafa 4 (!!) times in two sets on his beloved MC clay (and lead him in both sets iirc)?
Didn't Goffin lead 4-2 in the first before Mourier decided to meddle?

I'm sure Rafa will take tremendous confidence from this week and build on his win. And he showed plenty of good stuff during the week, including today. But he wasn't dominating like the Rafa of old.

And when you've made 2 winners and 9 unforced errors after 4,5 games in a Masters final, you most certainly can be expected to do better.

All that said, Rafa will be the one to overcome for the field on clay this year, that I agree with.
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Don't be so sure. RAFA won monte carlo last year but we all know what happened in Rolland garros .
 
Chanwan said:
One blip? :confused:
Wasn't Edmund doing alright in the 3rd as well, until he started to misfire?
Didn't Schwartzman break Rafa 4 (!!) times in two sets on his beloved MC clay (and lead him in both sets iirc)?
Didn't Goffin lead 4-2 in the first before Mourier decided to meddle?

I'm sure Rafa will take tremendous confidence from this week and build on his win. And he showed plenty of good stuff during the week, including today. But he wasn't dominating like the Rafa of old.

And when you've made 2 winners and 9 unforced errors after 4,5 games in a Masters final, you most certainly can be expected to do better.

All that said, Rafa will be the one to overcome for the field on clay this year, that I agree with.
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Only thing missing is the last notch from his FH. Everything else is in order. And his FH has become better every day.
 
TheGhostOfAgassi said:
Only thing missing is the last notch from his FH. Everything else is in order. And his FH has become better every day.
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I agree that there are lots of positives from a Rafa fan perspective:
- serve, better than it's been in a long while
- backhand, very stable all year and he's hitting it very well dtl, when he needs to
- defense, not at his best, but still better than the past 2 seasons
- return, never really went away
- volleys, never really went away
- forehand, doing damage again, even some dtl screamers. Still making a few more errors and hitting it short, when pushed.

Still - at times he got bullied in the rallies by Schwartsman and he got broken 4 times in 2 sets. 4 times. That's a fair amount. Goffin played (a bit) better than him until the Mourier mistake. And Edmund's forehand completely handcuffed him for a time (but then again, how to defend against a redlining forehand like that?)

Rafa fans, your thoughts? @eliars @ruerooo
 
Chanwan said:
One blip? :confused:
Wasn't Edmund doing alright in the 3rd as well, until he started to misfire?
Didn't Schwartzman break Rafa 4 (!!) times in two sets on his beloved MC clay (and lead him in both sets iirc)?
Didn't Goffin lead 4-2 in the first before Mourier decided to meddle?

I'm sure Rafa will take tremendous confidence from this week and build on his win. And he showed plenty of good stuff during the week, including today. But he wasn't dominating like the Rafa of old.

And when you've made 2 winners and 9 unforced errors after 4,5 games in a Masters final, you most certainly can be expected to do better.

All that said, Rafa will be the one to overcome for the field on clay this year, that I agree with.
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I just finished doing stats for all the Open Era ATGs for games and matches, and for every player game% and match% was even to or lower than those same stats in slams.

In other words, anything up to or around 59% of games is great for a career in NON-slam events.

One tourney doesn't tell us much, but Nadal won around 70% of his games at Monte Carlo, and that's very high. If he stays anywhere near that, it's going to be a stellar year for him on clay.

I don't have a breakdown yet for his serving% (games), but he's acing because of spot serving. It's hardly fair to take a match against a very strong-playing Edmund and use that as the basic standard, since in this case Edmund was playing the way would hope a finalist would play. ;)

I'm more cautious than @Meles. I'm not making any predictions, but I am saying that right now Nadal looks to me a lot like he looked in 2013. He was strutting around court today, and a confident Nadal on clay is bad news for the rest of the tour.

Keep a careful look at his serve stats on clay this year. He peaked at something ridiculous, winning around 89% of his service games in his best year. But usually he is around 85% or so, maybe 86%. If that stat falls to around 80%, he's vulnerable. If not he's going to stay dangerous.

That was the only true blip I saw this week, the way he lost serve to Edmund. But Edmund was really playing awfuly well, so credit to him.
 
Chanwan said:
I agree that there are lots of positives from a Rafa fan perspective:
- serve, better than it's been in a long while
- backhand, very stable all year and he's hitting it very well dtl, when he needs to
- defense, not at his best, but still better than the past 2 seasons
- return, never really went away
- volleys, never really went away
- forehand, doing damage again, even some dtl screamers. Still making a few more errors and hitting it short, when pushed.

Still - at times he got bullied in the rallies by Schwartsman and he got broken 4 times in 2 sets. 4 times. That's a fair amount. Goffin played (a bit) better than him until the Mourier mistake. And Edmund's forehand completely handcuffed him for a time (but then again, how to defend against a redlining forehand like that?)
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Good analysis. I'm less concerned about his losses of serve against Edmund unless that turns into a pattern in his next tourney. Time between points could become a problem. He's not being called on it now because he's the only guy left who is pulling in crowds with Fed not playing and the other top guys going out in early rounds!
 
Gary Duane said:
I just finished doing stats for all the Open Era ATGs for games and matches, and for every player game% and match% was even to or lower than those same stats in slams.

In other words, anything up to or around 59% of games is great for a career in NON-slam events.

One tourney doesn't tell us much, but Nadal won around 70% of his games at Monte Carlo, and that's very high. If he stays anywhere near that, it's going to be a stellar year for him on clay.

I don't have a breakdown yet for his serving% (games), but he's acing because of spot serving. It's hardly fair to take a match against a very strong-playing Edmund and use that as the basic standard, since in this case Edmund was playing the way would hope a finalist would play. ;)

I'm more cautious than @Meles. I'm not making any predictions, but I am saying that right now Nadal looks to me a lot like he looked in 2013. He was strutting around court today, and a confident Nadal on clay is bad news for the rest of the tour.

Keep a careful look at his serve stats on clay this year. He peaked at something ridiculous, winning around 89% of his service games in his best year. But usually he is around 85% or so, maybe 86%. If that stat falls to around 80%, he's vulnerable. If not he's going to stay dangerous.

That was the only true blip I saw this week, the way he lost serve to Edmund. But Edmund was really playing awfuly well, so credit to him.
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You can't take a look at his games in one tournament, where 2,5 of his opponents didn't show up.
Zverev, worst I've ever seen the kid play.
ARV: worst first set in a Masters final I've seen in a long time, he was hitting his forehand 5 feet long consistently.
Goffin: completely different player before and after the Mourier incident.

Again, there was not one blip, but 3:
Wasn't Edmund doing alright in the 3rd as well, until he started to misfire?
Didn't Schwartzman break Rafa 4 (!!) times in two sets on his beloved MC clay (and lead him in both sets iirc)?
Didn't Goffin lead 4-2 in the first before Mourier decided to meddle?

And again, I also expect him to be the player to beat. But I ain't seeing 2013 form just yet. Then again, winning breeds winning and he finally got a big title again.
So yes, he's dangerous now.
Gary Duane said:
Good analysis. I'm less concerned about his losses of serve against Edmund unless that turns into a pattern in his next tourney. Time between points could become a problem. He's not being called on it now because he's the only guy left who is pulling in crowds with Fed not playing and the other top guys going out in early rounds!
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Don't be ridiculous Gary. I'm yet to see him lose a first serve because of it. He gets one warning every now and then, but never actually 2, 3, 4 or 5 or 10 despite averaging 33 seconds today, indicating he went over the alloted time 80+ % of the time.

One warning, tops. Not a problem.

Loss of serve was also to Schwartzman (Edmund broke as well of course, but it was Schartzman with 4 breaks in 2 sets)
 
The difference from 2016 is just humongous. Every aspect of Nadal´s game has steadily improved these last months. I am especially impressed with how proactive he is now, seeking forward when opening up the court, hitting nice droppers and soft volleys. His serve looks very solid, and the forehand DTL is back. His defence has always been one of the very best, and today it was disgustingly good :eek:

Nadal has got what it takes to dominate the clay season. Excited to see if Stan, Novak and Andy can match this level.
 
Congrats to Nadal on becoming the 1st player to achieve 10 titles at any event anywhere at any time and, on winning his half-century of claycourt titles, cementing his standing as the all-time King of Clay!! :)

Will this be the year of La Decima? Will Monte Carlo kickstart a hat-trick of La Decimas for the most prolific claycourter in tennis history?? :cool:

We await with baited breath!!! ;)
 
Mainad said:
Congrats to Nadal on becoming the 1st player to achieve 10 titles at any event anywhere at any time and, on winning his half-century of claycourt titles, cementing his standing as the all-time King of Clay!! :)

Will this be the year of La Decima? Will Monte Carlo kickstart a hat-trick of La Decimas for the most prolific claycourter in tennis history?? :cool:

We await with baited breath!!! ;)
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And pictures:

18058196_1338678439530711_3616758653630160324_n.jpg


18058101_1338644076200814_6134460896127052182_n.jpg
 
Congrats to Nadal. 10 is one more than 9, hence it's superior. Maybe he can make it 11 next year (which is one more than 10).
 
Chanwan said:
I agree that there are lots of positives from a Rafa fan perspective:
- serve, better than it's been in a long while
- backhand, very stable all year and he's hitting it very well dtl, when he needs to
- defense, not at his best, but still better than the past 2 seasons
- return, never really went away
- volleys, never really went away
- forehand, doing damage again, even some dtl screamers. Still making a few more errors and hitting it short, when pushed.

Still - at times he got bullied in the rallies by Schwartsman and he got broken 4 times in 2 sets. 4 times. That's a fair amount. Goffin played (a bit) better than him until the Mourier mistake. And Edmund's forehand completely handcuffed him for a time (but then again, how to defend against a redlining forehand like that?)

Rafa fans, your thoughts? @eliars @ruerooo
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Agree with most, but in fairness, Rafa didnt develop rhythm in the early stages of the Goffin match and made stupid errors that costed him getting broken early. Goffin played well but nothing that Nadal would not solved eventually. His retrieving skills are improving, but i do miss him mixing shots like droppers and coming the net to throw off opponents rhythm. That said, there are more clay matches coming, and more fine tuning will be needed to be primed for RG
 
Mainad said:
Congrats to Nadal on becoming the 1st player to achieve 10 titles at any event anywhere at any time and, on winning his half-century of claycourt titles, cementing his standing as the all-time King of Clay!! :)

Will this be the year of La Decima? Will Monte Carlo kickstart a hat-trick of La Decimas for the most prolific claycourter in tennis history?? :cool:

We await with baited breath!!! ;)
Click to expand...


But what if both JMDP and Sir Andy return with a vengeance:eek:
 
junior74 said:
The difference from 2016 is just humongous. Every aspect of Nadal´s game has steadily improved these last months. I am especially impressed with how proactive he is now, seeking forward when opening up the court, hitting nice droppers and soft volleys. His serve looks very solid, and the forehand DTL is back. His defence has always been one of the very best, and today it was disgustingly good :eek:

Nadal has got what it takes to dominate the clay season. Excited to see if Stan, Novak and Andy can match this level.
Click to expand...

His level is the same as 2016, at least regarding clay. Give this week's draw to 2016 Nadal, and he would win MC too. Actually he did win last year, with a tougher draw.
 
JohnnyMac Fan! said:
Agree with most, but in fairness, Rafa didnt develop rhythm in the early stages of the Goffin match and made stupid errors that costed him getting broken early. Goffin played well but nothing that Nadal would not solved eventually. His retrieving skills are improving, but i do miss him mixing shots like droppers and coming the net to throw off opponents rhythm. That said, there are more clay matches coming, and more fine tuning will be needed to be primed for RG
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Could he have turned it around 2-4 down vs. Goffin? Most certainly.
Was he still the favorite at 2-4? Def. yes and he would most properly have won regardless.
Can we say with something close to certainty that Rafa would have solved Goffin? Of course we can't. This ain't 2008/2010/2012 no more. I (and the bookies too, I think) gave Goffin 20-25 % chance before the match and up 4-2 that had to be significantly higher. Say 35 % chance.

Anyways, this title should help him a lot going forward. Winning breeds winning.
 
Chanwan said:
Don't be ridiculous Gary. I'm yet to see him lose a first serve because of it. He gets one warning every now and then, but never actually 2, 3, 4 or 5 or 10 despite averaging 33 seconds today, indicating he went over the alloted time 80+ % of the time.

One warning, tops. Not a problem.

Loss of serve was also to Schwartzman (Edmund broke as well of course, but it was Schartzman with 4 breaks in 2 sets)
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Not sure why I am being ridiculous.

I think I said the same thing: He's not being called on being over. The only reason we can debate is "why". I personally think they are more likely to call him for it when he's not playing very well, on his best surface, and everyone else is more or less not there!

Regardless, it's the one thing that totally irritates me. I keep the remote in my hand for ever second of a Nadal match, making sure to start recording in advance. But it's not exactly fun to watch:

Bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce
Bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce
Bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce

18 times, and that was last match with Bounce-ovic....
 
Gary Duane said:
Not sure why I am being ridiculous.

I think I said the same thing: He's not being called on being over. The only reason we can debate is "why". I personally think they are more likely to call him for it when he's not playing very well, on his best surface, and everyone else is more or less not there!

Regardless, it's the one thing that totally irritates me. I keep the remote in my hand for ever second of a Nadal match, making sure to start recording in advance. But it's not exactly fun to watch:

Bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce
Bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce
Bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce

18 times, and that was last match with Bounce-ovic....
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Well ridiculous in the sense that you think they'll say and do something to the extent where it matters even a little to Rafa.
Even in the year, when they "did something", he never lost a first serve iirc. When in reality, he should get a warning and lose a first serve from the first or second game in every single one of the matches he's playing. That ain't happening and it won't start happening.
That's all I'm saying -> i.e. it won't ever become a factor for Rafa.
 
Chanwan said:
Well ridiculous in the sense that you think they'll say and do something to the extent where it matters even a little to Rafa.
Even in the year, when they "did something", he never lost a first serve iirc. When in reality, he should get a warning and lose a first serve from the first or second game in every single one of the matches he's playing. That ain't happening and it won't start happening.
That's all I'm saying -> i.e. it won't ever become a factor for Rafa.
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I agree with you, and I think it is wrong.

But I also understand why he doesn't change, because the violations are so random. If I like playing at a particular pace and I know I am going to be called on it maybe once a match, I'll just wait for the call and basically not change.

I'm a teacher. I work with people day in and day out, and I can tell you that people don't change anything, even when they need to, unless you repeatedly make the same point, and it can take months, even with children.

Habits are hard to break.

Once someone thinks anything helps and it becomes an emotional prop, it becomes "necessary". It's the same thing with Novak bouncing the ball more than 10 times, sometimes as many as 20.

That's not helping his game. But he THINKS it does, so he does it. And that sends him over almost as much as Nadal. Not as bad, but close.

On the other hand, Fed feels that two or three short bounces are what he needs, and that getting on with it as quickly as possible is best for him. So that's what he does.

Kyrgios in the last year has gone to both extremes, almost zero time between points and insane ball bouncing.

I've argued for a clock for years. That's the only thing that will stop this, but IF a couple guys get to the top who are fast players, then the time could be enforced. With Murray, Novak and Nadal at the top? Not gonna happen!
 
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