2017 Monte Carlo R2 - [2] Novak Djokovic vs Gilles Simon

Who wins?


  • Total voters
    33

Gary Duane

Talk Tennis Guru
Federer must be laughing
Or kicking himself for skipping the clay season. ;)

A match like this one could be the end of Djokovic, or it could be the turn-around match of the year. We'll know more by the end of this tourney!

But his play against Simon the last two years at least indicates he is especially vulnerable now to grinding, and we know that he can be blown off fast courts by power. He's certainly not looking like the nearly invincible player of 2011. He still needs to retool his game more.
 

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
He should beat Simon 3 and 2, he's hardly reflective of a good match. He's had about 2 big wins in his entire career and usually lays down to the big guys. If he doesn't destroy Simon this is indicative that his slump is still in full gear.
Care to revisit this?
 

I Am Finnish

Bionic Poster
Djokovic making zero errors but he will lose in 3 sets;)


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Zebrev

Hall of Fame
Novak actually harmed his chances of winning a clay masters by coming through this match. He has a tough draw here, and doesn't look ready too take it on. Chances are he gets knocked out by Thiem or Zverev, and then he is already tired once the next tournament starts. By the time we reach RG, Novak will be very tired, and probably not make it beyond the QF. That's another 1500+ points gone. If i were him, I'd not put much into my next match and hope things go well. If he can make it through the next rounds, then he can mount a push for the title, but if he doesn't win then its a lot of energy spent for not much back. I heard over 40% of Djokovic's points come from clay alone, so he has a lot to do over the next 2 months if he wants to stay number 2 with Stan breathing down his neck. Today was just the beginning of what he is going to have to do. Luckily he isn't defending too much on Grass, so should make up some ground there.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Chances are he gets knocked out by Thiem or Zverev, and then he is already tired once the next tournament starts. By the time we reach RG, Novak will be very tired

Then why hasn't he learned how to better schedule himself? He's been on the tour 11 or 12 years and is almost 30 years old. Seriously, why hasn't he learned this by now? Thiem will be in the old age hom by 27 if he continues to schedule himself so stupidly.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
No. Simon lost against a big guy as usual. Everything I wrote was spot on about Simon. And what I said about Djoker was true too. 2015 Djoker beats this mug in about 55 minutes!
Seriously doubt you saw the match, Simon was anything but muggish.
This is the start of Djoko 3.0. Watch out, he's back... :eek:
(at least kinda)
 

Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Talk Tennis Guru
You can't be seriously advocating in favour of a Simon-Djokovic match? o_O Even if you like Djokovic, Simon put's you asleep regardless of his opponent.
Nothing catastrophic about this match, at least the majority of it that I watched. Personally I find this way way better than any encounter where points (not even rallies, just some ultra short points) end in a blink of an eye. And I don't mind Simon at all honestly. I actually like the guy. Not attack oriented player, big deal. There is a lot more where that came from.
2015 Djoker beats this mug in about 55 minutes!
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Novak actually harmed his chances of winning a clay masters by coming through this match. He has a tough draw here, and doesn't look ready too take it on. Chances are he gets knocked out by Thiem or Zverev, and then he is already tired once the next tournament starts. By the time we reach RG, Novak will be very tired, and probably not make it beyond the QF. That's another 1500+ points gone. If i were him, I'd not put much into my next match and hope things go well. If he can make it through the next rounds, then he can mount a push for the title, but if he doesn't win then its a lot of energy spent for not much back. I heard over 40% of Djokovic's points come from clay alone, so he has a lot to do over the next 2 months if he wants to stay number 2 with Stan breathing down his neck. Today was just the beginning of what he is going to have to do. Luckily he isn't defending too much on Grass, so should make up some ground there.
the endurance king can surely handle a long match vs. Simon. He's hardly played matches this year.
 

Zebrev

Hall of Fame
the endurance king can surely handle a long match vs. Simon. He's hardly played matches this year.

Yes, but the problem is that he hasn't played much this year, and he now has too play a lot over the next 2 month stretch. The next rest won't be until before Wimbeldon. And it's not just winning, but winning with consistency. Even if Djokovic gets to semifinal of every clay event, including RG, he still will lose 1000's of points overall, compared to last season. He has to actually win events, and now he will be tired after Simon and a demon draw ahead of him. Does not say good things about Novaks clay season. If he puts a lot into this tournament and doesn't win, he won't have the same freshness heading to the next one. that doesn't even take into account the building psychological pressure. We could see a situation where he is mentally and physically drained by RG, and cannot defend the mountain of points he holds there. Let's ace it, at 30 his chances aren't getting any better. Only recent 30+ winner of RG is Stan, and he was on absolute fire in that tournament.
 

tenisdecente

Hall of Fame
You can't be seriously advocating in favour of a Simon-Djokovic match? o_O Even if you like Djokovic, Simon put's you asleep regardless of his opponent.

And honestly this match was no exception to that. I have respect for Simon, he is a hard worker, but man, I wont pay a single coin to watch one of his matches. He is a pusher and it is more boring than Karlovic (at least Karlovic put a lesson of where to place a serve).

Dont know what to say about this match, specially about Djokovic's performance which was abysmal. I probably watched a different match since some people say Simon was goating - probably was in the second part of the second set because I fell asleep with the exciting tennis presented. Simon choked as expected when he had the chance to win the match. Still, Djokovic looked far from good there, but still he lost to Vesely last year here and we know what happened in RG so this tournament not means a lot of how well he will fare for the French. Let's see
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
the endurance king can surely handle a long match vs. Simon. He's hardly played matches this year.

He is not the endurance king anymore and hasn't been for a long time. He was gassed in the USO final in September of last year. Boris says he doesn't practice and goes weeks without hitting a ball or training.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Yes, but the problem is that he hasn't played much this year, and he now has too play a lot over the next 2 month stretch. The next rest won't be until before Wimbeldon. And it's not just winning, but winning with consistency. Even if Djokovic gets to semifinal of every clay event, including RG, he still will lose 1000's of points overall, compared to last season. He has to actually win events, and now he will be tired after Simon and a demon draw ahead of him. Does not say good things about Novaks clay season. If he puts a lot into this tournament and doesn't win, he won't have the same freshness heading to the next one. that doesn't even take into account the building psychological pressure. We could see a situation where he is mentally and physically drained by RG, and cannot defend the mountain of points he holds there. Let's ace it, at 30 his chances aren't getting any better. Only recent 30+ winner of RG is Stan, and he was on absolute fire in that tournament.
there's a 2 weeks gap between MC and Madrid. What he needs is to win matches and eke out the close ones like he did today. Those kind of wins breeds confidence.
Also, odds of a 30+ player winning FO this year? At the very, very least 75 %. Possibly closer to 85 %.
 

Rozroz

G.O.A.T.
i never saw the "upgraded" Djokovic acts so frustrated, agitated and angry.
his injury, love life, parents, or something clearly bothering him.
he won't go far like that.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
He is not the endurance king anymore and hasn't been for a long time. He was gassed in the USO final in September of last year. Boris says he doesn't practice and goes weeks without hitting a ball or training.
Don't recall him being gassed and Boris hasn't been a part of his camp and training for 4 months+ now. Didn't look gassed at all in the match today despite some very long rallies. Until further proof to the contrary, I thus refrain from thinking that one somewhat long 3-setter will inhibit Novak's chances after a day's rest...
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Don't recall him being gassed and Boris hasn't been a part of his camp and training for 4 months+ now. Didn't look gassed at all in the match today despite some very long rallies. Until further proof to the contrary, I thus refrain from thinking that one somewhat long 3-setter will inhibit Novak's chances after a day's rest...
He's playing doubles tomorrow so he won't even get that.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
there's a 2 weeks gap between MC and Madrid. What he needs is to win matches and eke out the close ones like he did today. Those kind of wins breeds confidence.
Also, odds of a 30+ player winning FO this year? At the very, very least 75 %. Possibly closer to 85 %.

I disagree. I think he needs to win some of these matches easily rather than eke out close wins every time. I know he's had some close matches with Simon in the past but the truth is he should be beating a guy like Simon in straights as he's also done in the past.

I didn't see this match but looked at some of the highlights and Djokovic looked atrocious. That's why I said in earlier posts there's no way I could predict which players would do well at the clay warm-ups and at the FO without watching them first. Djokovic will need to improve drastically to have a chance to win these tournaments. He still has time to do it but he's got to start winning matches more easily rather than go the distance with every mug on tour.

Seriously, I think Federer in his current form would beat this Djokovic fairly comfortably on any surface. Nadal may also be able to beat this Djokovic depending on Nadal's own form in this tournament. Also a player like Thiem or Zverev may be able to beat Djokovic if Djokovic doesn't improve. Certainly we wouldn't have said that one short year ago. That's how it goes. Things change.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
I disagree. I think he needs to win some of these matches easily rather than eke out close wins every time. I know he's had some close matches with Simon in the past but the truth is he should be beating a guy like Simon in straights as he's also done in the past.

I didn't see this match but looked at some of the highlights and Djokovic looked atrocious. That's why I said in earlier posts there's no way I could predict which players would do well at the clay warm-ups and at the FO without watching them first. Djokovic will need to improve drastically to have a chance to win these tournaments. He still has time to do it but he's got to start winning matches more easily rather than go the distance with every mug on tour.

Seriously, I think Federer in his current form would beat this Djokovic fairly comfortably on any surface. Nadal may also be able to beat this Djokovic depending on Nadal's own form in this tournament. Also a player like Thiem or Zverev may be able to beat Djokovic if Djokovic doesn't improve. Certainly we wouldn't have said that one short year ago. That's how it goes. Things change.
I think Djoko's first half of 2016 form is way overrated. He won a lot of matches on his 2015 aura alone. Didn't need to do much, guys just folded before him. When he needed to, he had an extra gear, but most of the time, he would just play the ball and let the other guy selfdestruct.

Sure, straight set wins are always nice. But it's good for him to win some close ones too rather than lose like he did vs. Nick. I saw most of the match and aside from his serve, a pretty important part, Djoko wasn't mugging around that much.
Plenty of good signs from him in this match, some not so great, but overall, def. a good performance.

Nadal, Thiem and Zverev should all be some of the top guys on clay this year, so saying they can beat him isn't saying that much. And saying Fed, the best player of the season can beat him, isn't either.
Obviously, he's not in 2015-form, but I don't think he's in that bad a shape either. Just more prone to defeat than he used to
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
I agree that it's not a great sign that Djokovic keeps getting pushed on a regular basis. It just shows us that his level is nowhere near what it used to be, and I believe he only gets back to winning ways if he starts to win these types of matches easier.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
I think Djoko's first half of 2016 form is way overrated. He won a lot of matches on his 2015 aura alone. Didn't need to do much, guys just folded before him. When he needed to, he had an extra gear, but most of the time, he would just play the ball and let the other guy selfdestruct.

Sure, straight set wins are always nice. But it's good for him to win some close ones too rather than lose like he did vs. Nick. I saw most of the match and aside from his serve, a pretty important part, Djoko wasn't mugging around that much.
Plenty of good signs from him in this match, some not so great, but overall, def. a good performance.

I didn't see the match so I'll take your word for it. From the highlights I saw Djokovic didn't look good to me. But he has time to improve. At this point he'll need wins of any kind to build momentum.
 
1

1HBH-DownTheLine

Guest
I didn't see the match so I'll take your word for it. From the highlights I saw Djokovic didn't look good to me. But he has time to improve. At this point he'll need wins of any kind to build momentum.

he had 40+ unforced errors to like 22 or 23 winners so he definately played like *hit. i'm curious how murray will do tomorrow.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
he had 40+ unforced errors to like 22 or 23 winners so he definately played like *hit. i'm curious how murray will do tomorrow.

Thanks for the stats. It sure didn't look like Djokovic played well to me from the highlight reel I watched but Chanwan said he thought Djokovic put in a good performance? I guess we all see things a little differently.

Oh yes, I forgot about Murray in this tournament.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Oh stop being so nitpicky Chanwan :p
Zebrev (and to some extend Beatlesfan) were talking as if he would spoil the rest of his clay season because of this match. This is a one week Masters followed by two weeks with no tournaments. Of course he's gonna be fine. And doubles ain't no strain for him.
I didn't see the match so I'll take your word for it. From the highlights I saw Djokovic didn't look good to me. But he has time to improve. At this point he'll need wins of any kind to build momentum.
he had 40+ unforced errors to like 22 or 23 winners so he definately played like *hit. i'm curious how murray will do tomorrow.
Thanks for the stats. It sure didn't look like Djokovic played well to me from the highlight reel I watched but Chanwan said he thought Djokovic put in a good performance? I guess we all see things a little differently.

Oh yes, I forgot about Murray in this tournament.
Impossible to end up with a positive W/UE count vs. someone like Simon on one of the slowest courts on tour in damp weather unless you're absolutely on fire.
He didn't play a perfect match, but he hit with plenty of depth and purpose, was redirecting the ball very well and returning very well. Serve not up to par yet as I said and obviously that's a problem vs. a good returner like Simon.
 
1

1HBH-DownTheLine

Guest
if you're going -20 then you didn't play well. it's one thing if you hit 50 winners and 50 unforced errors as it pays off. but 20/40 isn't good.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
if you're going -20 then you didn't play well. it's one thing if you hit 50 winners and 50 unforced errors as it pays off. but 20/40 isn't good.
was it that bad though? Didn't see the end stats. But without looking it up, I'm positive that Rafole and Djokoray have played plenty of matches against each other with both of them at -10 or more in W/UE
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
Impossible to end up with a positive W/UE count vs. someone like Simon on one of the slowest courts on tour in damp weather unless you're absolutely on fire.
He didn't play a perfect match, but he hit with plenty of depth and purpose, was redirecting the ball very well and returning very well. Serve not up to par yet as I said and obviously that's a problem vs. a good returner like Simon.

But Djokovic usually is that player who keeps his W/UE count in check. Djokovic was never a player who made many UEs at his best. I don't know how the W/UE ratio was in his past matches vs Simon but it appeared to me from the highlights that Djokovic made too many UEs. Both of these players are excellent backboards. In the past year Djokovic has made too many uncharacteristic UEs IMO.

Maybe as the tournament goes along Djokovic will improve. He'll have to if he wants to win the tournament that's for sure.
 
1

1HBH-DownTheLine

Guest
it briefly popped up during his post match interview when i was watching it on TC. it was like 42 errors and 23 winners or something very close to those numbers.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
What the hell is Fed doing? If he's not injured he's had 16 days to rest following the Miami masters.

There's literally no elite players out there so this is as good a chance as any to win Monte Carlo and another 1000 points.

I don't understand why he needs 7-10 weeks rest? If he's not injured a couple of weeks is more than enough to shake off any tiredness.
 

TripleATeam

G.O.A.T.
What the hell is Fed doing? If he's not injured he's had 16 days to rest following the Miami masters.

There's literally no elite players out there so this is as good a chance as any to win Monte Carlo and another 1000 points.

I don't understand why he needs 7-10 weeks rest? If he's not injured a couple of weeks is more than enough to shake off any tiredness.
It's the strain he worries clay will put on his body. Doesn't want to hurt his back again or something.
 
1

1HBH-DownTheLine

Guest
I think he's more concerned about his knee than his back but he's had back issues before so I'm sure that doesn't help. Lord Fedr doesn't need any clay.
 

The Green Mile

Bionic Poster
Guttered Simon didn't serve it out, but it was an enthralling match nevertheless. Simon played as well as he could from the back of the court after set 1, a shame about that liable serve. Used to be at least half decent a while back.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
How is it any worse than hard courts?

Federer says the clay is worse for his body and he should know. Leave him alone. He doesn't need to play useless clay warm-ups with these grinders and risk injury.

Let Djokovic, Nadal and Murray battle it out. From the highlights I saw Djokovic should have lost this match today. If he had played any type of decent server he would have lost but he played Simon the ultimate journeyman with a poor serve.
 
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