2017 Monte Carlo R2 - [2] Novak Djokovic vs Gilles Simon

Who wins?

  • Total voters
    33
tenisdecente

tenisdecente

Hall of Fame
I dont know what game you watched Chanwan. Djokovic was spraying errors all around, and if not by Simon self-destroying when serving for the match, he would be with Pepe crying for another painful defeat.
And please, dont state Djokovic's ROS because Simon average serve speed was around 160 km/h. Nadal looks like Karlovic compared with that horrendous serve. And Simon was not goating or playing specially good like some people wanted to sell here, he was good sometimes, average in other moments and bad like the serve game for the match he had.

Honestly, I dont know what we could take from this match. I agree this tournament has the slowest courts in the galaxy, but when Peakovic appeared 2-3 years ago trashing everybody's butt, he was nowhere near that W/UE proportion.
He played bad and Simon played not so bad. It was a boring match BTW, only good thing was the chance for the upset which was not taken by Gilles
 
chjtennis

chjtennis

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic's concentration goes away and then come back. This is exactly what we saw in Federer's game past his prime. Djokovic's decline is incurable, but he can still win some big titles every now and then, just like Fed has done. I think they will retire around the same time though.
 
joekapa

joekapa

Legend
57782826.jpg
 
joekapa

joekapa

Legend
Djokovic played a great first set, a bad second set, and pulled through when it counted in the third. He has had similar troubles with Simon, even during his 18 month steamroll run, and I don't see why this would of changed now.

He still can play the baseline well, and he changes the play of the ball with relative ease. His ROS was very good in this game, even if he was playing a weak server.

I was impressed with his DC match, and todays match shows that he is still capable of clutch play.

One match at a time.
 
Chanwan

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
cc0509 said:
But Djokovic usually is that player who keeps his W/UE count in check. Djokovic was never a player who made many UEs at his best. I don't know how the W/UE ratio was in his past matches vs Simon but it appeared to me from the highlights that Djokovic made too many UEs. Both of these players are excellent backboards. In the past year Djokovic has made too many uncharacteristic UEs IMO.

Maybe as the tournament goes along Djokovic will improve. He'll have to if he wants to win the tournament that's for sure.
Click to expand...
100 UE in the 5-setter at the AO last year. Don't have the stats for their other matches.
 
The Green Mile

The Green Mile

Bionic Poster
It's difficult to gauge where a player really is after beating Simon. Wouldn't surprise me to see Novak play a much cleaner match in the 3rd round. His next match will be much more eye opening. Haven't seen who he will face yet though.
 
joekapa

joekapa

Legend
tenisdecente said:
And yesterday's Simon was a shadow of himself. A decent Simon would have won that match because Djokovic was clearly out of form
Click to expand...
Really, out of form Simon ? He played very well in the second and third set in my book.

Djokovic came back in the 3rd, where most players would have given up. He showed plenty of clutch play when needed against a player who has always caused him trouble.
 
The Green Mile

The Green Mile

Bionic Poster
It's difficult to compare Simon matches really. You have the Simon match against Rafa at Rome, where he played much more aggressive than usual (hit like 50 winners), and then you have this match against Novak. It's all about the match ups.
 
tenisdecente

tenisdecente

Hall of Fame
joekapa said:
Really, out of form Simon ? He played very well in the second and third set in my book.

Djokovic came back in the 3rd, where most players would have given up. He showed plenty of clutch play when needed against a player who has always caused him trouble.
Click to expand...

Came back? LOL, Simon gave Djokovic all the chances he needed and then he choked like a champ to check out from the match.

Simon caused trouble him in the past when Gilles was in way better form. The French rarely commit errors, yesterday he was spraying silly errors all over the place, as well Djokovic.

Dont try to make up this match, Simon missed tons of shots who he not missed about 2-3 years ago. And the serve, wow, I guess I serve decently compared to Gilles yesterday :D
 
joekapa

joekapa

Legend
tenisdecente said:
Came back? LOL, Simon gave Djokovic all the chances he needed and then he choked like a champ to check out from the match.

Simon caused trouble him in the past when Gilles was in way better form. The French rarely commit errors, yesterday he was spraying silly errors all over the place, as well Djokovic.

Dont try to make up this match, Simon missed tons of shots who he not missed about 2-3 years ago. And the serve, wow, I guess I serve decently compared to Gilles yesterday :D
Click to expand...
Simon played what he played. If he had played any other player, he would of won.

Give a bit of credit to Djokovic, my man. 12 slams, countless masters don't come easily. You do realise that don't you ?

Personally, I think he played well, and showed some great signs.
 
The Green Mile

The Green Mile

Bionic Poster
joekapa said:
It's clay people. Big serves don't work that well on it. You have to actually play tennis to win.
Click to expand...
Simon's serve of yesteryear would have definitely got him many more free points though. You could count how many times Simon was up in the rally after the Novak return, probably on one hand. Nevermind service winners.

It wasn't just a rally starter like it's become. Obviously, it was never a weapon, but it actually was half decent.
 
tenisdecente

tenisdecente

Hall of Fame
joekapa said:
Simon played what he played. If he had played any other player, he would of won.

Give a bit of credit to Djokovic, my man. 12 slams, countless masters don't come easily. You do realise that don't you ?

Personally, I think he played well, and showed some great signs.
Click to expand...

I dont think Nadal, Federer or even Murray would have lost to this guy yesterday, but honestly it is moronic to theorise about ifs.

I am ok giving credit where credit is due - however Djokovic was horrible yesterday, and Simon was a farcry from his best level. If you need to convince yourself that yesterday was peak Simon, be my guest, but that is a lie.
The guy that was sweeping majors the last 3 years would have trashed this no-serve-Simon 3 and 3 at best.
The only good sign I watched from Djokovic is the desire to fight, but his tennis is still off. It is still early in the clay season, and last year he was dumped by Vesely, so that is a positive I guess ;)

joekapa said:
It's clay people. Big serves don't work that well on it. You have to actually play tennis to win.
Click to expand...

They do not work well as HC, but a decent serve works a lot better than a ****ty serve he showed yesterday

The Green Mile said:
Simon's serve of yesteryear would have definitely got him many more free points though. You could count how many times Simon was up in the rally after the Novak return, probably on one hand. Nevermind service winners.

It wasn't just a rally starter like it's become.
Click to expand...

Exactly
 
Chanwan

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
tenisdecente said:
I dont know what game you watched Chanwan. Djokovic was spraying errors all around, and if not by Simon self-destroying when serving for the match, he would be with Pepe crying for another painful defeat.
And please, dont state Djokovic's ROS because Simon average serve speed was around 160 km/h. Nadal looks like Karlovic compared with that horrendous serve. And Simon was not goating or playing specially good like some people wanted to sell here, he was good sometimes, average in other moments and bad like the serve game for the match he had.

Honestly, I dont know what we could take from this match. I agree this tournament has the slowest courts in the galaxy, but when Peakovic appeared 2-3 years ago trashing everybody's butt, he was nowhere near that W/UE proportion.
He played bad and Simon played not so bad. It was a boring match BTW, only good thing was the chance for the upset which was not taken by Gilles
Click to expand...
I'm with joekopa here, also Djoko of 15 and 16 didn't exactly trash Simon 3 and 3, not even close:
joekapa said:
Djokovic played a great first set, a bad second set, and pulled through when it counted in the third. He has had similar troubles with Simon, even during his 18 month steamroll run, and I don't see why this would of changed now.

He still can play the baseline well, and he changes the play of the ball with relative ease. His ROS was very good in this game, even if he was playing a weak server.

I was impressed with his DC match, and todays match shows that he is still capable of clutch play.

One match at a time.
Click to expand...
joekapa said:
Really, out of form Simon ? He played very well in the second and third set in my book.

Djokovic came back in the 3rd, where most players would have given up. He showed plenty of clutch play when needed against a player who has always caused him trouble.
Click to expand...
 
cc0509

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
Chanwan said:
100 UE in the 5-setter at the AO last year. Don't have the stats for their other matches.
Click to expand...

Yes, that was a bad match Djokovic played vs Simon and it was probably the first time I noticed that Djokovic was at the very beginning of losing his foothold on domination. He still won the AO and many things up until the FO 2016 but in that match vs Simon the chinks in his armor started to appear IMO. Then there was that loss in Monte Carlo to Vesely.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Djokovic for the rest of the clay season and if he can rebuild himself or if he will continue to have close call matches vs players he should be thrashing and losses to players he would have handled easily at his best.
 
cc0509

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
joekapa said:
Simon played what he played. If he had played any other player, he would of won.

Give a bit of credit to Djokovic, my man. 12 slams, countless masters don't come easily. You do realise that don't you ?

Personally, I think he played well, and showed some great signs.
Click to expand...

Keep telling yourself that! :rolleyes::oops:
 
cc0509

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
tenisdecente said:
I dont think Nadal, Federer or even Murray would have lost to this guy yesterday, but honestly it is moronic to theorise about ifs.

I am ok giving credit where credit is due - however Djokovic was horrible yesterday, and Simon was a farcry from his best level. If you need to convince yourself that yesterday was peak Simon, be my guest, but that is a lie.
The guy that was sweeping majors the last 3 years would have trashed this no-serve-Simon 3 and 3 at best.
The only good sign I watched from Djokovic is the desire to fight, but his tennis is still off. It is still early in the clay season, and last year he was dumped by Vesely, so that is a positive I guess ;)
Click to expand...

I agree.

Every time Djokovic loses or almost loses to a journeyman like Simon or Istomin this joekapa guy wants to make it seem like Simon and Istomin are world beaters who would beat anybody.
 
Last edited:
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
The Green Mile said:
It's difficult to gauge where a player really is after beating Simon. Wouldn't surprise me to see Novak play a much cleaner match in the 3rd round. His next match will be much more eye opening. Haven't seen who he will face yet though.
Click to expand...
Let's see... Simon not so good on clay. Djokovic great on clay and has huge head to head advantage. Yet somehow Simon almost wins. Simon very good on hard courts. Thiem is not. Thiem keeps beating Simon. Conclusion, on clay this Djokovic has no chance with Thiem and probably loses to Goffin who has a bigger serve. PCB has horrid head to head on clay at Monte Carlo with Djoko. If he doesn't handle PCB convincingly put another fork in him; he's done on clay.;)
 
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
KINGROGER said:
What the hell is Fed doing? If he's not injured he's had 16 days to rest following the Miami masters.

There's literally no elite players out there so this is as good a chance as any to win Monte Carlo and another 1000 points.

I don't understand why he needs 7-10 weeks rest? If he's not injured a couple of weeks is more than enough to shake off any tiredness.
Click to expand...
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Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
cc0509 said:
Tell that to players like Zverev, Kyrgios or Raonic! That's nonsense.
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tiphat.gif

I didn't want to say that, but its a huge part of the game now. All 4 of the semifinalists at RG featured strong serve game offense. Clayray was born off of massively improved first serve points won numbers. Wawrinka leads the way. Its another reason that Federer should revise his plans and test the waters in Madrid. His game is not far off what it takes, just a bit better on return and he's there. If Madrid doesn't work out then dump RG altogether. Win Madrid; play RG.
 
tenisdecente

tenisdecente

Hall of Fame
The Green Mile said:
Simon's serve of yesteryear would have definitely got him many more free points though. You could count how many times Simon was up in the rally after the Novak return, probably on one hand. Nevermind service winners.

It wasn't just a rally starter like it's become.
Click to expand...
Chanwan said:
I'm with joekopa here, also Djoko of 15 and 16 didn't exactly trash Simon 3 and 3, not even close:
Click to expand...

I dont know what has to do Simon tennios level in the past in this discussion. It is like bringing Fed 2013 to the table to say he would lose to anyone for example.
Yesterday's Simon, as I said, was a farcry from his best level, as well as Djokovic. 2015-2016 Djokovic would destroy this Simon, not the 2015 or any other year.
We are talking about the present, not about 2-3 years ago, when Gilles DEFINITELY was a better player, and by a long margin
 
tenisdecente

tenisdecente

Hall of Fame
Meles said:
Let's see... Simon not so good on clay. Djokovic great on clay and has huge head to head advantage. Yet somehow Simon almost wins. Simon very good on hard courts. Thiem is not. Thiem keeps beating Simon. Conclusion, on clay this Djokovic has no chance with Thiem and probably loses to Goffin who has a bigger serve. PCB has horrid head to head on clay at Monte Carlo with Djoko. If he doesn't handle PCB convincingly put another fork in him; he's done on clay.;)
Click to expand...

I dont think Simon is a bad clay courter. I remember a year he was trashing Nadal until he got cold and gave up to the clay king. He is better in HC, but not a bad clay courter IMO
 
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
tenisdecente said:
I dont think Simon is a bad clay courter. I remember a year he was trashing Nadal until he got cold and gave up to the clay king. He is better in HC, but not a bad clay courter IMO
Click to expand...
Correct by the career stats. He dipped on clay last year. Hard courts is a good surface for veterans. Clay and grass don't disfavor younger players as badly as high bouncing hard courts with Poly strings and I'd say in general older players slip on clay (see Federer's return game, etc.) Simon last year won 49.5% of his clay court points which is not good.:oops:
 
R

Rjtennis

Hall of Fame
tenisdecente said:
If Djokovic drops a set in that match, I am sure he is in big trouble. 3 and 3 for the Serb should be the expected scoreline
Click to expand...

I agree that it should be a straight setter. Busta is like a poor mans Novak without any weapons. Let's see if Novak can hold on to his serve this match. Wasnt too impressed with his last match.
 
Chanwan

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
tenisdecente said:
I dont know what has to do Simon tennios level in the past in this discussion. It is like bringing Fed 2013 to the table to say he would lose to anyone for example.
Yesterday's Simon, as I said, was a farcry from his best level, as well as Djokovic. 2015-2016 Djokovic would destroy this Simon, not the 2015 or any other year.
We are talking about the present, not about 2-3 years ago, when Gilles DEFINITELY was a better player, and by a long margin
Click to expand...
Agree to disagree then. Simon played very well for the majority of the match. Not his best match ever, but by no means a shadow of his former self.
 
Djokovic_is_the_best#1

Djokovic_is_the_best#1

Bionic Poster
The main thing is that Djoko found a way to win. Simon is not an easy opponent, especially on clay. Therefore it's a step in the right direction for Novak. I hope he can win his next match more comfortably, however like I said unlike past few years I'm not taking any Djoko matches for granted anymore.

He's more vulnerable now and lost the aura but he can get it back to a degreee by winning tournaments and getting another slam. It's small steps back.

This time last year Djoko was almost the unbeatable force. Things have changed but could change again. I mean federer is prooof that you can get it back again even at 35.
 
tenisdecente

tenisdecente

Hall of Fame
Meles said:
Correct by the career stats. He dipped on clay last year. Hard courts is a good surface for veterans. Clay and grass don't disfavor younger players as badly as high bouncing hard courts with Poly strings and I'd say in general older players slip on clay (see Federer's return game, etc.) Simon last year won 49.5% of his clay court points which is not good.:oops:
Click to expand...

Can we agree that 2016 was not Simon's best year? A guy who can have in the ropes Nadal at clay has to be a decent clay courter...
 
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