2018 Madrid Masters R2: Novak Djokovic[10] vs Kyle Edmund

Prediction poll

  • Novak in 2

    Votes: 9 37.5%
  • Novak in 3

    Votes: 6 25.0%
  • Kyle in 2

    Votes: 2 8.3%
  • Kyle in 3

    Votes: 7 29.2%

  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
If Nishilori's form has no consistency why did you rely on him having played a low level event previously? His form has little correlation from one week to the next so it's not relevant.

You're trying to come up with every excuse in the book to make Djokovic's situation more positive than it really is. Come on, man. A little realism. I think it will be tough for him to do anything concrete at the next FO and Wimbledon. It's too soon and his form sucks.
 
I'm just saying, players aren't afraid of Djokovic anymore. Do you really think Edmund would have won today if this match had taken place 2-3 years ago? Novak would have capitalized on that 0-40 game on Edmund's serve and would have run away with the match.
He would have capitalized in the first set...
 

reaper

Legend
I have seen this with Nadal in 2015 too. People actually believed Nadal was on the right path simply because he took 6 games from Nole at MC.

When a player declines, people start living in denial and try to look for encouraging signs anywhere, even when they don't exist.

It took him a while but Nadal seems to have recovered ok. I don't know how long it will take but I expect Djokovic to win major tournaments again.
 

ChrisRF

Legend
If it is one person who can, it is Djokovic.
No, that one person would be Federer.

Or maybe Nadal if he somehow had to miss the clay masters tournaments and would restart at RG after having that 6-6 record until April.

But Novak? Come on, he needs a lot of preparation in matches and practise, and that is exactly what he shows right now. He cannot trust his talent and shotmaking, he is a worker. That brought him to dominance, but his commitment to the sport stopped after RG 2016, and since then we see the results.
 

Nadal15thslam

Hall of Fame
I have seen this with Nadal in 2015 too. People actually believed Nadal was on the right path simply because he took 6 games from Nole at MC.

When a player declines, people start living in denial and try to look for encouraging signs anywhere, even when they don't exist.
That is not a true decline, it's just a severe lack of confidence, that too after an injury. The same happened to Rafa in 2015.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
No, that one person would be Federer.

Or maybe Nadal if he somehow had to miss the clay masters tournaments and would restart at RG after having that 6-6 record until April.

But Novak? Come on, he needs a lot of preparation in matches and practise, and that is exactly what he shows right now. He cannot trust his talent and shotmaking, he is a worker. That brought him to dominance, but his commitment to the sport stopped after RG 2016, and since then we see the results.
Even I was surprised last year to see Fed peak for a slam on his first tournament back after 6 months :eek:
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
That is not a true decline, it's just a severe lack of confidence, that too after an injury. The same happened to Rafa in 2015.
Decline can be correlated to many things, not just to the physical aspect. Confidence is also something that disappears when you enter decline phase.

Novak is not going to flip a switch and peak at Wimb all of a sudden.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
No, that one person would be Federer.

Or maybe Nadal if he somehow had to miss the clay masters tournaments and would restart at RG after having that 6-6 record until April.

But Novak? Come on, he needs a lot of preparation in matches and practise, and that is exactly what he shows right now. He cannot trust his talent and shotmaking, he is a worker. That brought him to dominance, but his commitment to the sport stopped after RG 2016, and since then we see the results.

You got it, baby! ;)
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
I guess Novak beating a pathetic version of Nishiturkey rocked their world. It's pretty obvious he has about 30 minutes of tennis in his legs. He's gone from being a physical beast on court to having almost no stamina.

And still you have endless threads, "Novak to expose Nadal! Nole to win Wimbledon!" Are they even watching the actual matches to witness his horrible form?
 

reaper

Legend
Decline can be correlated to many things, not just to the physical aspect. Confidence is also something that disappears when you enter decline phase.

Novak is not going to flip a switch and peak at Wimb all of a sudden.

This is a matter of definition. The other poster is saying decline has to be permanent, otherwise it's just a loss of form. Just playing badly isn't decline.
 

Nadal15thslam

Hall of Fame
Decline can be correlated to many things, not just to the physical aspect. Confidence is also something that disappears when you enter decline phase.

Novak is not going to flip a switch and peak at Wimb all of a sudden.
Maybe not Wimbledon, but I think Us Open is a more realistic goal for Nole to be a contender. He'll be back for 2019, that's for sure. He is too good not to, the man has 12 GS.
 

mightyrick

Legend
Decline can be correlated to many things, not just to the physical aspect. Confidence is also something that disappears when you enter decline phase.

Novak is not going to flip a switch and peak at Wimb all of a sudden.

I think it is all confidence and a lack of reps. The good thing is that he seems healthy. The bad thing is that he keeps losing early in tournaments, so he isn't getting quality matches in. It is going to take a long time for Djokovic to develop confidence at this rate. It makes me wonder if Agassi suggested to Djokovic that he go and play some challengers for awhile, to get some matches in -- just as Agassi did. Agassi credits that as being the best decision in his career and entirely responsible for his huge comeback from adversity.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I think it is all confidence and a lack of reps. The good thing is that he seems healthy. The bad thing is that he keeps losing early in tournaments, so he isn't getting quality matches in. It is going to take a long time for Djokovic to develop confidence at this rate. It makes me wonder if Agassi suggested to Djokovic that he go and play some challengers for awhile, to get some matches in -- just as Agassi did. Agassi credits that as being the best decision in his career and entirely responsible for his huge comeback from adversity.
It depends if Novak's ego will allow him to. He is a greater player than Agassi after all. And when Agassi did what you said, he was "only" a 3 time slam champion. Novak is a 12 time GS winner now so I doubt his ego will allow him to start from the lowest bottom.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
I guess Novak beating a pathetic version of Nishiturkey rocked their world. It's pretty obvious he has about 30 minutes of tennis in his legs. He's gone from being a physical beast on court to having almost no stamina.

And still you have endless threads, "Novak to expose Nadal! Nole to win Wimbledon!" Are they even watching the actual matches to witness his horrible form?

I said the day before yesterday after Nishi win that people need to relax and take day by day and not hype him unjustified.

You are right that Djokovic is not in good form, I still think he should be capable of beating Edmund today and that there was small details that made him lose the match.

It's a process, Djokovic has said it so many times.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
He played better today than he has since at least the AO.

Sorry, that's an unbelievably low bar. He lost to challenger-level players in the second round of IW, Miami and Barcelona. He also has lost weight since the AO and is discernibly gassed after a minimum amount of play.

Never mind he's mentally a cipher, choking to players he would have demolished even in 2007. There is nothing encouraging in 2018 for Novak, it's a free fall. After he loses early in Rome, his ranking will plummet and it's likely he will be unseeded at Wimbledon.
A Fed-Djoker first round would be fun.:D
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I said yesterday after Nishi win that people need to relax and take day by day and not hype him unjustified.

You are right that Djokovic is not in good form, I still think he should be capable of beating Edmund today and that there was small details that made him lose the match.

It's a process, Djokovic has said it so many times.
While watching today's match, I had a feeling that once Novak failed to capitalize on the 0-40 game on Edmund's serve, that he would lose the match. You know someone is in bad form when you feel he is going to lose every match he plays.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
While watching today's match, I had a feeling that once Novak failed to capitalize on the 0-40 game on Edmund's serve, that he would lose the match. You know someone is in bad form when you feel he is going to lose every match he plays.

I thought the same thing tbh.
 

reaper

Legend
Sorry, that's an unbelievably low bar. He lost to challenger-level players in the second round of IW, Miami and Barcelona. He also has lost weight since the AO and is discernibly gassed after a minimum amount of play.

Never mind he's mentally a cipher, choking to players he would have demolished even in 2007. There is nothing encouraging in 2018 for Novak, it's a free fall. After he loses early in Rome, his ranking will plummet and it's likely he will be unseeded at Wimbledon.
A Fed-Djoker first round would be fun.:D

Yes...it's a low bar. He's coming off a low base. He wasn't discernible gassed today against Edmund so that's a step in the right direction. Plenty wrote off Federer pre 2017 when he'd won 1 grand slam tournament in 7 years and right now it's Djokovic's turn. I think he's on the up without being near his best yet.
 

mightyrick

Legend
No incentive for Novak there – money/sponsorships-wise. So that must've been out of the question in his mind.

Well, it depends on the mindset. The incentive is just to get a lot of repetitions. Get some wins. Find your rhythm. Remind yourself how good you are. It certainly isn't for money. Does he really need that anymore? I think he's won over $100m Euros in his career now.

I think he'll come back no matter what, don't get me wrong. But I think it is just going to take a LONG time at the current rate.
 
Sorry, that's an unbelievably low bar. He lost to challenger-level players in the second round of IW, Miami and Barcelona. He also has lost weight since the AO and is discernibly gassed after a minimum amount of play.

Never mind he's mentally a cipher, choking to players he would have demolished even in 2007. There is nothing encouraging in 2018 for Novak, it's a free fall. After he loses early in Rome, his ranking will plummet and it's likely he will be unseeded at Wimbledon.
A Fed-Djoker first round would be fun.:D

A Fed-Djoker first round would be fun, but I almost want him to miraculously make a deeper run, get people's hopes up that he's back on form, THEN lose to a red hot Fed. Would feel like a more well-earned bit of revenge for those finals in 14 and 15 :p

In seriousness, I have a lot of doubt that this version of Djokovic will achieve anything significant this year, though I reckon would be good for the sport if he did.
 
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Mainad

Bionic Poster
Good win for Kyle and encouraging for him that he didn't choke the match away when in a position to win it (as he has done so often). Now if he can just build on that momentum and on the confidence that win should bring him!:cool:
 
Me too, just not this year. Next year most likely.
He could be ready by the USO if he is devoted. Doesn't look like he is fully devoted right now. Someone fully devoted trying to get back doesn't lose a first set like that today and will show much more fire in their step. He just going through the motions at times and instead of being focused.
 

Pagoo

G.O.A.T.
Good win for Kyle and encouraging for him that he didn't choke the match away when in a position to win it (as he has done so often). Now if he can just build on that momentum and on the confidence that win should bring him!:cool:

Unfortunately, I think he will lose tomorrow. It's an all too familiar script. Get a big win, lose the next match. You can be sure Goffin won't let this opportunity slip from him. Kyle just did the dirty job for him. I doubt he would have beaten Djokovic.

Will be rooting for Kyle.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Unfortunately, I think he will lose tomorrow. It's an all too familiar script. Get a big win, lose the next match. You can be sure Goffin won't let this opportunity slip from him. Kyle just did the dirty job for him. I doubt he would have beaten Djokovic.

Will be rooting for Kyle.

I know what you mean but I keep hoping he will start to build some consistency. Agree with you that Goffin is likely to be a tougher proposition tomorrow but Kyle has the game to beat him, he just needs to keep his brain in gear.
 

Gary Duane

Talk Tennis Guru
@Gary Duane @Meles

Novak's serve speeds done today, 1st average = 182 kmph 2nd average = 141 kmph
I look for serves around 194km or above because for us that's around 120 mph, and that's pretty much what we expect today. So that appears a bit low.

I had a quick look at today's match, and to me what is lacking are the ATG defensive skills. Last set could easily have gone the other way if he had broken. Later in the season I want to have a careful look at point to game ratio.

Elephant in the room: He can't hold serve. He is around 79% of games on serve this year, which for him is ghastly. 3% lower than 2010. There is no chance for him to remain competitive if he doesn't fix that.
 

underground

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic played better today I thought. A bit more improvement in Rome than again at Roland Garros and he's capable of being a force.

This was exactly the same type of sentiment in 2015/2016 with Rafa's losses.

"He's slowly showing signs of improvement"
"His opponent played REALLY well" - despite this happening multiple times during the year
"He just came up against someone zoing, next tournament he'll fare better"

And it took 2 years for Rafa to be fully back at the top.
 

reaper

Legend
This was exactly the same type of sentiment in 2015/2016 with Rafa's losses.

"He's slowly showing signs of improvement"
"His opponent played REALLY well" - despite this happening multiple times during the year
"He just came up against someone zoing, next tournament he'll fare better"

And it took 2 years for Rafa to be fully back at the top.

Yes...I'm assuming today was a day where Djokovic played ok and lost to an opponent playing very well. That presents as a springboard for him to do better in weeks to come. It's possible it was actually a really good performance by Djokovic's current level and he'll revert to the level that saw him lose to Klizan and Daniel. I don't think that's the case...but it's possible.
 

aditya123

Hall of Fame
Kyle Edmund trying hard to cover up the absence of Murray. He is the new ray of hope for the British and I would like him to win one gs in the coming year or so. But today on clay Vs djokovic , it would be a non contest ( yeah I know djokovic is not at his best)
Bump my own reply. Dint expect this at all
 

aditya123

Hall of Fame
Sorry, that's an unbelievably low bar. He lost to challenger-level players in the second round of IW, Miami and Barcelona. He also has lost weight since the AO and is discernibly gassed after a minimum amount of play.

Never mind he's mentally a cipher, choking to players he would have demolished even in 2007. There is nothing encouraging in 2018 for Novak, it's a free fall. After he loses early in Rome, his ranking will plummet and it's likely he will be unseeded at Wimbledon.
A Fed-Djoker first round would be fun.:D
Do you see djokovic bouncing back in future like Fed or Nadal did it in the past???
 
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