2018 Rogers Cup SF - [1] Rafael Nadal vs Karen Khachanov

Who wins?

  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .
Krish0608 said:
Rafa did not hit a single winner the whole TB. Go figure. The players play the aura, not the player sadly. Happens with Federer too.
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Don’t think you need to hit winners to actually win. If Rafa, or Fed, consistently win at TBs then maybe they simply play better.
 
Nadal just being Nadal in order to break, wait for errors and the spectacular defense finished with a passing.
 
It's 2018 and people still don't realize Ned struggles against tall guys with good Fhs, not with the Cilic types.
 
Daniel Andrade said:
"Among the game’s current elite, Kei Nishikori sports the best BHP, at +3.6, while Andre Agassi‘s was a whopping +5.0. At the other extreme, Marin Cilic‘s is -2.9, Milos Raonic‘s is -3.7, and Jack Sock‘s is -6.6."

That's not what the data says.
http://www.tennisabstract.com/blog/2017/01/30/the-federer-backhand-that-finally-beat-nadal/
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I said tall guys. And don't trust the stats like Mel does, watch the freaking matches. Marin's BH has always been more solid. He had to fix his FH to reach a higher level.
 
Meles said:
Now can you explain the data?:oops:
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"A metric I’ve devised called Backhand Potency (BHP) illustrates just how much better Fed executed with his one-hander. BHP approximates the number of points whose outcomes were affected by the backhand: add one point for a winner or an opponent’s forced error, subtract one for an unforced error, add a half-point for a backhand that set up a winner or opponent’s error on the following shot, and subtract a half-point for a backhand that set up a winning shot from the opponent. Divide by the total number of backhands, multiply by 100*, and the result is net effect of each player’s backhand."

The BHP simply tells you if your backhand helps you win points or lose points. If it's negative your backhand tends to give your opponent more points than you, and if positive the opposite applies.

When people say Cilic and guys like him have outstanding backhands, they mean that once in a while they shoot amazing points from the backhand wing but mostly just hit the ball outside.
 
-snake- said:
I said Tall guys. And don't trust the stats like Mel does, watch the freaking matches. Marin's BH has always been more solid. He had to fix his FH to reach a higher level.
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The guy who wrote that saw the freaking matches, he didn't come up with that with his eyes closed.

Yes, you said that, tall guys with good forehands, which is a group Cilic is part of. Because he has a good forehand and is tall, lol.
 
-snake- said:
I said tall guys. And don't trust the stats like Mel does, watch the freaking matches. Marin's BH has always been more solid. He had to fix his FH to reach a higher level.
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Don't disagree with anything your saying here other than the dig on stats:

I don't trust stats for really all that much other than players relative levels season to season or perhaps over a couple tournament swing which is less reliable.
 
Last edited:
Daniel Andrade said:
"A metric I’ve devised called Backhand Potency (BHP) illustrates just how much better Fed executed with his one-hander. BHP approximates the number of points whose outcomes were affected by the backhand: add one point for a winner or an opponent’s forced error, subtract one for an unforced error, add a half-point for a backhand that set up a winner or opponent’s error on the following shot, and subtract a half-point for a backhand that set up a winning shot from the opponent. Divide by the total number of backhands, multiply by 100*, and the result is net effect of each player’s backhand."

The BHP simply tells you if your backhand helps you win points or lose points. If it's negative your backhand tends to give your opponent more points than you, and if positive the opposite applies.

When people say Cilic and guys like him have outstanding backhands, they mean that once in a while they shoot amazing points from the backhand wing but mostly just hit the ball outside.
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I took a glance. I wish Slackerman would publish for all the players. Its valuable data and a player like Cilic might not realize that a shot like his backhand does have issues. If the stats show an issue, time for the coaches to look for and fix the problem.
 
Daniel Andrade said:
The guy who wrote that saw the freaking matches, he didn't come up with that with his eyes closed.

Yes, you said that, tall guys with good forehands, which is a group Cilic is part of. Because he has a good forehand and is tall, lol.
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He won like 1 match against Ned (before his slam win) You gotta remember that the improvement of that shot is relatevely new. Every time he's under too much pressure, his Zveresque FH shows up :p
 
Meles said:
I took a glance. I wish Slackerman would publish for all the players. Its valuable data and a player like Cilic might not realize that a shot like his backhand does have issues. If the stats show an issue, time for the coaches to look for and fix the problem.
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Probably that's why he sometimes hits the backhand in a crazy way.
If you're gonna lose the point anyway, might at least give it a try to win it with an amazing shot.
 
Nadal just made a new version of his old fireworks gif lol

fireworks_SF_nc.gif~c200
 
tacou said:
brad and cliff are an underused combo
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always liked Cliff but his sell-by date was long ago, needs to be gently retired

his science project about KK's forehand, with BG's and Goodall's help, was interminable

p.s. could somebody tell Goodall he is allowed to speak above a whisper after the match :)

p.p.s. Chris Fowler was supposed to be there instead of Cliff, but tore his pec bench-pressing...true story
 
Khachanov played much better than i thought he would. So glad Rafa made it into the final! (: Hope he wins easily tomorrow! (:
 
marc45 said:
always liked Cliff but his sell-by date was long ago, needs to be gently retired

his science project about KK's forehand, with BG's and Goodall's help, was interminable

p.s. could somebody tell Goodall he is allowed to speak above a whisper after the match :)

p.p.s. Chris Fowler was supposed to be there instead of Cliff, but tore his pec bench-pressing...true story
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Hes very, very Dick Enberg
 
marc45 said:
competed well, won some big points on serve....his groundstrokes went off pretty badly in the second set as Nadal increased the pressure
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The thing that I noticed is that he tried to hit winners off of Nadal's serve instead of hitting a deep return and getting a short ball. A lot of his mistakes in the second set were the service return.
 
marc45 said:
always liked Cliff but his sell-by date was long ago, needs to be gently retired

his science project about KK's forehand, with BG's and Goodall's help, was interminable

p.s. could somebody tell Goodall he is allowed to speak above a whisper after the match :)

p.p.s. Chris Fowler was supposed to be there instead of Cliff, but tore his pec bench-pressing...true story
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i like Drysdale, and he still has some useful time left.

i appreciate that he knows he's older and doesn't care, thus he will ask questions that other commentators won't and he'll argue with his co-coms.

its enjoyable.
 
Bhagi Katbamna said:
The thing that I noticed is that he tried to hit winners off of Nadal's serve instead of hitting a deep return and getting a short ball. A lot of his mistakes in the second set were the service return.
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In the locker room manual, the only way to beat Rafa is to try and hit winners off every ball.
 
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