2018 WTA Wimbledon Final: A. Kerber [11] vs S. Williams [25]

Who will win?

  • Serena in 2

    Votes: 5 10.9%

  • Serena in 3

    Votes: 13 28.3%

  • Kerber in 2

    Votes: 15 32.6%

  • Kerber in 3

    Votes: 9 19.6%

  • A blancmange

    Votes: 3 6.5%

  • Angus Podgorny

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Total voters
    46
  • Poll closed .
icedevil0289 said:
well when you are a woman color like myself you are much more attuned to recognizing racism or atleast thinly veiled racism and sexism and some of these comments and posters have expressed that.

i mean that is what kills me, I adore roger and he's my favorite player but i would be a huge hypocrite if I got on other players esp serena for being arrogant. a person can be critical of serena w/o being racist or sexist...but that isnt what it is happening here tbh.
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Exactly, as a person of colour (but not black), I can sense when these thinly veiled racist comments come along. I am not being overly defensive here. In fact, in the Graf-Serena thread, I made the same argument that Feeny has. But BS pro case is pretty crystal clear to me.
 
Mr Feeny said:
There seems to be some sort of feud between you and protennis. I don't really watch the wta and rarely participate in the match threads, but to be completely fair to him/her (without knowing his/her complete views on Serena),I don't think it's fair to start labelling people racists because they criticized someone who happens to be a minority.

The poster may or may not be a racist. I've got no earthly idea because I don't know him/her. But it seems reckless and malicious to label someone a racist like that. This isn't an accusation that should be thrown around lightly. That's just my take.

Not everything is an agenda. Not everyone is a racist. Not everyone is a bigot. I think we might want to give them the benefit of the doubt until we see something that definitively indicates that they are racists. Criticism of a minority athlete isn't racism, in my book.

If I've missed something in that poster's history, then my apologies. But I don't think your comments were fair.
Click to expand...

tbh racism works in many different ways, people dont have to make kkk comments for things to be racist and I'm of the mind that people these days seem more outraged by people labeling things racist than the actual racism at hand.
 
PDJ said:
I agree. It's an unnecessary comment but its pro Williams and pro American so l can understand it.
But to say Evert is classless is ridiculous.
There have been few champions with as much class in victory and defeat.
Plus it also begs comparison with Serena Williams antics on occasion. So seems silly.
Click to expand...

I'm not a hater of Chris. I generally like her. A lot, even. I just thought that was some very unnecessary saltiness.

Serena will get better from here and probably have a fair shot in NYC (where she'll be seeded without drama). Give it a rest, Chris, and I say that as a fellow fan.
 
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Dolgopolov85 said:
Exactly, as a person of colour (but not black), I can sense when these thinly veiled racist comments come along. I am not being overly defensive here. In fact, in the Graf-Serena thread, I made the same argument that Feeny has. But BS pro case is pretty crystal clear to me.
Click to expand...

BS pro has a nice ring to it
 
Mr Feeny said:
I don't know his history. He might well be. That might be where it's coming from. But on the surface, I don't quite know why we are jumping there. There are a bunch of haters on the forum. Of every player. The criticism is not always valid. At times it's asinine. It because the individual being criticized is white, that wouldn't be considered racism. Which is just as well because it probably isn't.

All I'm saying is that he might hate Serena for a myriad of reasons and I don't feel easy about speculating and labelling someone something he's not.
Click to expand...

Well, the days when on the surface racism could pass are long gone. So this is their modus operandi. I am the last person to seek to sanctify a black athlete and insulate them from criticism, especially so in the case of Serena because I do find some of their overzealous fanboys and fangirls annoying. But this was basically the equivalent of claiming she can't really play tennis but still wins because ...fill in the blanks. They know they can't say that thing in the blanks because that would make it too obvious. Doesn't mean it isn't there. I am not alone here so I can see that many others on this thread sensed exactly what I did. I used to get along ok with tennispro before, so no, I have no history with him. I am shocked and disappointed by his comments but maybe I shouldn't be. With the rise of the right, the true colours of a lot of people are coming out in the open.
 
Aussie Darcy said:
It’s still a great thread. Just ignore the trolls. It was a good final and I’m glad to have watched it in the company of some awesome posters on this thread including you :)
Click to expand...

I really don't care about this sort of stuff (thread derailing, to be understood). I was just messing around. But I've to be honest, certain comments here would merit a stern "f**k off" from me in real life and I do get frustrated to see hints of racism and misogyny in threads about things that should be fun and innocuous, like sports.
 
icedevil0289 said:
well when you are a woman color like myself you are much more attuned to recognizing racism or atleast thinly veiled racism and sexism and some of these comments and posters have expressed that.

i mean that is what kills me, I adore roger and he's my favorite player but i would be a huge hypocrite if I got on other players esp serena for being arrogant. a person can be critical of serena w/o being racist or sexist...but that isnt what it is happening here tbh.
Click to expand...

I can appreciate that you are a woman of color who might deal with a lot of racially motivated comments or dispositions in everyday life.

I don't think you can decipher someone's motivation in an online setting. Without a face. A countenance. Cadence. History. So I'll agree to disagree. I'm not sure how you can definitively state that something is or isn't racist/sexist in an online setting.

That's the same as the usual posters accusing everyone including the ATP of being sexist Any time anyone comments about the WTP. I got called a sexist for suggesting that men should get paid more because they pay best of 5 sets compared to the WTA, from someone who doesn't know me. It's reckless and is very easy to do. Not everyone is a sexist. Not everyone is a racist. People must feel comfortable criticizing everyone, of ever gender and race, without worrying about being immediately labelled something unpleasant.
 
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Dolgopolov85 said:
Well, the days when on the surface racism could pass are long gone. So this is their modus operandi. I am the last person to seek to sanctify a black athlete and insulate them from criticism, especially so in the case of Serena because I do find some of their overzealous fanboys and fangirls annoying. But this was basically the equivalent of claiming she can't really play tennis but still wins because ...fill in the blanks. They know they can't say that thing in the blanks because that would make it too obvious. Doesn't mean it isn't there. I am not alone here so I can see that many others on this thread sensed exactly what I did. I used to get along ok with tennispro before, so no, I have no history with him. I am shocked and disappointed by his comments but maybe I shouldn't see. With the rise of the right, the true colours of a lot of people are coming out in the open.
Click to expand...

Don't disagree with any of that. I still don't think we can accurately determine whether someone's comments are because they're overzealous fanboys/fangirls (as you put it) or because there's a racial bias. That's all I'm saying.
 
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icedevil0289 said:
tbh racism works in many different ways, people dont have to make kkk comments for things to be racist and I'm of the mind that people these days seem more outraged by people labeling things racist than the actual racism at hand.
Click to expand...

People these days are absolutely more outraged about racist label than about actual commentary.

This whole thread is pure hate/joy that someone lost. It frankly makes me feel sad for both players (even though I know they won't ever read it), one because she's hated and one because she's celebrated purely for beating someone they hate. They don't care about Angelique as Angelique (a top player who creates incredible angles, plays top notch defense and is generally a pleasure to see on the court when in shape), they care about her as someone who denied Serena her 24th GS. It could be a mass murderer on the other side of the net and the dynamics would probably be much the same.

And then there's sore winning, which has always been my huge pet peeve.
 
FakeEmpire said:
I really don't care about this sort of stuff (thread derailing, to be understood). I was just messing around. But I've to be honest, certain comments here would merit a stern "f**k off" from me in real life and I do get frustrated to see hints of racism and misogyny in threads about things that should be fun and innocuous, like sports.
Click to expand...

It's the goddamn culture war, haunting even fields that should be fun and bring people together, like sports and arts. And we're just getting started; it's going to get worse in the years to come.
 


  2. Wimbledon‏Verified account @Wimbledon 40s41 seconds ago
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    #Wimbledon

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Mr Feeny is constantly defending racists and then comes into this thread to whitesplain to minorities how to and not to go about recognizing racism. Lol you can't make this level of narcissistic stupidity up
 
Mr Feeny said:
Don't disagree with any of that. I still don't think we can accurately determine whether someone's comments are because they're overzealous fanboys/fangirls (as you put it) or because there's a racial bias. That's all I'm saying.
Click to expand...

Maybe not but I have an instinct, a sixth sense and I am going to act on it. I feel put on the defensive when I feel a racist lurking, you know. Getting banned for it on a tennis forum, if it happens, is not a big deal. I have a strong conviction that I am right about this. Why? Because a person who is truly not racist would be appalled to have been mistaken to be one and sought to clarify their comments and assure that they didn't mean any offence. When that doesn't happen, I know I am on the right track.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
In 2003 Wimbledon, Serena played Dementieva-Capriati-Henin-Venus from R4 to the finals to win. Can you name one Graf draw even in the peak Seles years that was as tough? Just admit it, you don't know ANYTHING about Serena's career.
Click to expand...
Yes, nice draws back then.

What about all the Slams since 2008? Because you know that she won 60% of her Slams in 2008-2017.

And 10 Slams in her 30s which is sick. Can't do that without a weak era.
 
Aussie Darcy said:
Would love if people can report the poor and hateful comments on this thread. It’s sad to see how much hate certain posters have. You don’t have to love Serena but some of you guys are just awful. Don’t ruin what was a nice match, good victory for Angie and good run for Serena.
Click to expand...
It would be nice if people could show some respect for the WTA fans (and people in general), by not invading the space and making constant comparisons to the men's game. That debate is off-topic here, in my opinion, and is (overly) addressed in other threads. The hateful Serena comments get a little vicious at times as well, and while maybe not overtly racist, definitely suspicious of being so. I try not to respond to too many of these comments because that only spurs them on more. It's more of a symptom of TTW in general. There are definitely gender warmongers here and fans of the women's game are completely outnumbered.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
Well, the days when on the surface racism could pass are long gone. So this is their modus operandi. I am the last person to seek to sanctify a black athlete and insulate them from criticism, especially so in the case of Serena because I do find some of their overzealous fanboys and fangirls annoying.
Click to expand...

I absolutely think Rena's Army is obnoxious. These are the people who essentially don't know or watch tennis, they're just there to worship her. The inanities they tweet show painfully that they hardly, if ever, watch tennis and essentially go off of scorelines, b/c that's all they need to lift her up.

Absolutely overzealous and annoying. But in some ways it's a reaction/overcorrective to the hate she's taken over the years and so I tolerate it.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
Maybe not but I have an instinct, a sixth sense and I am going to act on it. I feel put on the defensive when I feel a racist lurking, you know. Getting banned for it on a tennis forum, if it happens, is not a big deal. I have a strong conviction that I am right about this. Why? Because a person who is truly not racist would be appalled to have been mistaken to be one and sought to clarify their comments and assure that they didn't mean any offence. When that doesn't happen, I know I am on the right track.
Click to expand...

And that's where you and I might disagree a little. He did immediately reply that he wasn't a racist and wasn't pleased to be labelled one while claiming that he'd report the post, to which you were indifferent and told him to go ahead. (If it wasn't you, then I mkight have you confused with another poster and I apologize.)

The other issue is that I don't think someone who is accused by a random individual has to prove that he or she isn't a rscist/sexist/bigot to that individual. In a situation where the accused doesn't bother responding to malicious accusations, that doesn't make him or her a racist. It's hardly an indictment.

I think you have the right to post what you want and if you genuinely feel that someone is posting from a racially motivated place, then I think you're doing what you think is right. All I'm sayijng is that I don't think we can definitively infer that someone is or isn't something based on comments.
 
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emilyhex said:
It would be nice if people could show some respect for the WTA fans (and people in general), by not invading the space and making constant comparisons to the men's game. That debate is off-topic here, in my opinion, and is (overly) addressed in other threads. The hateful Serena comments get a little vicious at times as well, and while maybe not overtly racist, definitely suspicious of being so. I try not to respond to too many of these comments because that only spurs them on more. It's more of a symptom of TTW in general. There are definitely gender warmongers here and fans of the women's game are completely outnumbered.
Click to expand...

They're never going to show respect b/c they have none.

I really like a lot of people on this board and I tend to learn a lot from insightful commentary but starting to get so tired of the warmongers. And it doesn't help that they tend to be especially out there when Serena plays anyone.
 
Kerber won another GS! 6-3, 6-3 in a about a hour. Serena did not seem to be in this match. I guess it must have be her off day the way the match score end up!
 
So I missed the match because I was playing tennis. Did Kerber succeed in moving Serena around where others had failed, or was there some other significant plot-line?
 
Mr Feeny said:
And that's where you and I might disagree a little. He did immediately reply that he wasn't a racist and wasn't pleased to be labelled one while claiming that he'd report the post, to which you were indifferent and told him to go ahead. (If it wasn't you, then I mkight have you confused with another poster and I apologize.)

The other issue is that I don't think someone who is accused by a random individual has to prove that he or she isn't a rscist/sexist/bigot to that individual. In a situation where the accused doesn't bother responding to malicious accusations, that doesn't make him or her a racist. It's hardly an indictment.

I think you have the right to post what you want and if you genuinely feel that someone is posting from a racially motivated place, then I think you're doing what you think is right. All I'm sayijng is that I don't think we can definitively infer that someone is or isn't something based on comments.
Click to expand...

Of course, no racist is pleased to be labelled one. You are confusing the issue here. I said somebody who is not a racist WILL take the pains to explain he was misconstrued. It's not that I expect them to prove they aren't but that they WILL do that. Why? Because nobody who is not a racist wants to be thought of as someone who hates people of colour. What is reporting me and threatening to get me banned anything but a defensive reaction to shut me up so he doesn't have to hear it again? Two completely different things. And again, there is no way to definitively infer because nobody today is dumb enough to openly say racist things. Doesn't mean it's not there, though. You don't get it, fine. And that's ok. But I know I am not going out on a limb here based on the reactions of others on the thread.
 
Winners or Errors said:
So I missed the match because I was playing tennis. Did Kerber succeed in moving Serena around where others had failed, or was there some other significant plot-line?
Click to expand...

Serena didn't serve too effectively and Kerber took advantage of the dips in her serving level to the fullest extent possible. Played incredible defense, pressured hard, let Serena UE all over the place and was a backboard when needed. So, no, no significant plot line. Solid from Kerber in all of the ways you'd expect and poor from Serena in all of the ways you'd expect.
 
Mr Feeny said:
I can appreciate that you are a woman of color who might deal with a lot of racially motivated comments or dispositions in everyday life.

I don't think you can decipher someone's motivation in an online setting. Without a face. A countenance. Cadence. History. So I'll agree to disagree. I'm not sure how you can definitively state that something is or isn't racist/sexist in an online setting.

That's the same as the usual posters accusing everyone including the ATP of being sexist Any time anyone comments about the WTP. I got called a sexist for suggesting that men should get paid more because they pay best of 5 sets compared to the WTA, from someone who doesn't know me. It's reckless and is very easy to do. Not everyone is a sexist. Not everyone is a racist. People must feel comfortable criticizing everyone, of ever gender and race, without worrying about being immediately labelled something unpleasant.
Click to expand...

sighh we're just going to have to agree to disagree with that one. also imo its reckless to accuse someone of making sexist statements, even if their intent is not to do so. intent isnt always everything and imo the argument about playing 5 sets makes zero sense. teh wta have always said tehy were willing to play 5 sets and in the end of we are going to measure by sets than the people who win 6-0-6-1, 6-2 on the men's side should get paid significantly less. these people are entertainers. a movie doesn't automatically make more because it is longer.

also i dont believe one has to know a person's history to recognize when someone's comments are either racially charged or sexist. its not like these things exist in a vacuum. no body should be free of criticism but it is important to recognize where that criticism comes from, how it is influenced by society, etc like I said these things dont exist in a vacuum.
 
skyline said:
Serena didn't serve too effectively and Kerber took advantage of the dips in her serving level to the fullest extent possible. Played incredible defense, pressured hard, let Serena UE all over the place and was a backboard when needed. So, no, no significant plot line. Solid from Kerber in all of the ways you'd expect and poor from Serena in all of the ways you'd expect.
Click to expand...

I should add it can't be said she served super poorly or anything, in the overall assessment. Went with consistency and placement which was probably the correct call. But she needed some free points there and she wasn't able to produce many because the serves, while reasonably well placed, didn't have much on them.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
Has to be her worst display in a slam final, bar none.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to recall if she's ever been worse....FO 2016, no, AO 2016 no (she had patches of brilliance there), Stosur 2011, no (Stosur played out of her damn skin that day)....you could be right.

I can't remember those finals with the sister right now.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
Maybe not but I have an instinct, a sixth sense and I am going to act on it. I feel put on the defensive when I feel a racist lurking, you know. Getting banned for it on a tennis forum, if it happens, is not a big deal. I have a strong conviction that I am right about this. Why? Because a person who is truly not racist would be appalled to have been mistaken to be one and sought to clarify their comments and assure that they didn't mean any offence. When that doesn't happen, I know I am on the right track.
Click to expand...
That's interesting. And I can see you make sense.
However, speaking personally, its no secret l dislike Serena Williams -- can't abide her or her brand of tennis - and maybe for the first 50 odd posts either inferring, or outright libellous comments I was racist did meet with outrage from myself. They don't any more because I know it's not true (few people actually know my race, religion etc) and more importantly, because it's invariably lazy and a knee jerk response. And ignorant.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
Of course, no racist is pleased to be labelled one. You are confusing the issue here. I said somebody who is not a racist WILL take the pains to explain he was misconstrued. It's not that I expect them to prove they aren't but that they WILL do that. Why? Because nobody who is not a racist wants to be thought of as someone who hates people of colour. What is reporting me and threatening to get me banned anything but a defensive reaction to shut me up so he doesn't have to hear it again? Two completely different things. And again, there is no way to definitively infer because nobody today is dumb enough to openly say racist things. Doesn't mean it's not there, though. You don't get it, fine. And that's ok. But I know I am not going out on a limb here based on the reactions of others on the thread.
Click to expand...

Ah. Got it. Don't disagree. Anyone accused of something vile will or should protest if they are t what they're accused of being. Also agree with your second point. If you're a person of color,you would be more tuned in to issues of race because you deal with it in everyday life.

I'd like you to look at the post by service ace ( few posts above yours). This is a poster who has repeatedly accused of me of being a racist without knowing me. Called me names. Called me explicit pejorative. Moron. Idiot. And I honestly can't even remember why. I don't remember if I criticized a coloured athlete or disagreed with a post.

But you get malicious posters like that who go around accusing you of being something and it isn't appropriate or proper and shows a lack of class and propriety. I reported his/her posts and corrected that poster and informed that I didn't appreciate being labelled something I'm not.

And having been in that situation and dealt with hateful posters like that, all I'm saying is that I would t like to do it to another poster.
 
icedevil0289 said:
sighh we're just going to have to agree to disagree with that one. also imo its reckless to accuse someone of making sexist statements, even if their intent is not to do so. intent isnt always everything and imo the argument about playing 5 sets makes zero sense. teh wta have always said tehy were willing to play 5 sets and in the end of we are going to measure by sets than the people who win 6-0-6-1, 6-2 on the men's side should get paid significantly less. these people are entertainers. a movie doesn't automatically make more because it is longer.

also i dont believe one has to know a person's history to recognize when someone's comments are either racially charged or sexist. its not like these things exist in a vacuum. no body should be free of criticism but it is important to recognize where that criticism comes from, how it is influenced by society, etc like I said these things dont exist in a vacuum.
Click to expand...

Impact > intent, imo.
 
PDJ said:
That's interesting. And I can see you make sense.
However, speaking personally, its no secret l dislike Serena Williams -- can't abide her or her brand of tennis - and maybe for the first 50 odd posts either inferring, or outright libellous comments I was racist did meet with outrage from myself. They don't any more because I know it's not true (few people actually know my race, religion etc) and more importantly, because it's invariably lazy and a knee jerk response. And ignorant.
Click to expand...

I've never seen you spew bile. You tend to be quite measured.

But some others here..........
 
icedevil0289 said:
sighh we're just going to have to agree to disagree with that one. also imo its reckless to accuse someone of making sexist statements, even if their intent is not to do so. intent isnt always everything and imo the argument about playing 5 sets makes zero sense. teh wta have always said tehy were willing to play 5 sets and in the end of we are going to measure by sets than the people who win 6-0-6-1, 6-2 on the men's side should get paid significantly less. these people are entertainers. a movie doesn't automatically make more because it is longer.

also i dont believe one has to know a person's history to recognize when someone's comments are either racially charged or sexist. its not like these things exist in a vacuum. no body should be free of criticism but it is important to recognize where that criticism comes from, how it is influenced by society, etc like I said these things dont exist in a vacuum.
Click to expand...

Again I don't disagree with your post. The area we disagree on is where you talked about inferring someone's racial tendencies. I don't think we can do that. Below is an example of someone who has said that he/she dealt with malicious accusations just because of posts criticing Serena. I don't think that's correct. That's reckless and not proper. I don't disagree with anything else you said.

PDJ said:
That's interesting. And I can see you make sense.
However, speaking personally, its no secret l dislike Serena Williams -- can't abide her or her brand of tennis - and maybe for the first 50 odd posts either inferring, or outright libellous comments I was racist did meet with outrage from myself. They don't any more because I know it's not true (few people actually know my race, religion etc) and more importantly, because it's invariably lazy and a knee jerk response. And ignorant.
Click to expand...
 
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I just heard the news about the results and I'm so happy for Kerber. She's one of my favourite players to watch. Does anyone know where I can see a replay?
 
skyline said:
Nah, she's never gonna win in Paris imo. But this is still the career no one would have predicted for her in 2015.
Click to expand...
I would have. And did. I always thought she had it in her. She used to be aboe to beat top players, but couldn’t string enough back to back wins for a major. She still had room to improve and she did. And it looks like she means to keep improving. I’m happy to see her back to winning after her letdown last year. I have enjiyed so many of her matches over the years - epic level. Congrats to her!!!
 
skyline said:
I've never seen you spew bile. You tend to be quite measured.

But some others here..........
Click to expand...

But he/she was still met with accusations of being a racist. That's the problem here. Those were done by people who don't know the poster. And that's my entire argument. Even though you may view the posts if this poster as measured, others didn't. And immediately labelled him a racist. That's the problem with inferring that with reckless abandon.

I don't disagree with anything else you said.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
It's the goddamn culture war, haunting even fields that should be fun and bring people together, like sports and arts. And we're just getting started; it's going to get worse in the years to come.
Click to expand...

It's daunting, it really is. Sometimes, I don't have a real grasp about these matters (I'm a white woman, from a small town, that was lucky enough to go to college and that, by force of character, tends to avoid big commotions) and seeing this online ends up being a real eye opener.
 
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