2018 WTA Wimbledon Final: A. Kerber [11] vs S. Williams [25]

[70後]

Congrats to Angie. 3/4. Way too solid and the far better player. I can't think of anybody in the draw who could have beaten her now. Unfortunate but not too surprising that Serena couldn't recover sufficient form to make it a better final like 2016 Australian.

I wouldn't disagree with some opinions that the men's semis were better than the women's semis and final. Sometimes it is the women who do better and the men who do worse, this time it is the turn of the men to play better. Take it tournament by tournament. (Though there was a lot of serving in the Isner match, Anderson and Isner have improved a lot, especially Isner, they did a lot of attacking which is why they got so far.) I still hope the mens final will somehow be a good match.

Personally, it is worth noting that the last four wta slams and 2/3 of the pm's and premiers have been won or dominated by the rallier game and the rallier type of player over the ball strikers.

 

[Latetothegame]

Congrats to Angie. 3/4. Way too solid and the far better player. I can't think of anybody in the draw who could have beaten her now. Unfortunate but not too surprising that Serena couldn't recover sufficient form to make it a better final like 2016 Australian.

I wouldn't disagree with some opinions that the men's semis were better than the women's semis and final. Sometimes it is the women who do better and the men who do worse, this time it is the turn of the men to play better. Take it tournament by tournament. (Though there was a lot of serving in the Isner match, Anderson and Isner have improved a lot, especially Isner, they did a lot of attacking which is why they got so far.) I still hope the mens final will somehow be a good match.

Personally, it is worth noting that the last four wta slams and 2/3 of the pm's and premiers have been won or dominated by the rallier game and the rallier type of player over the ball strikers.

Nice post and yes I agree,

 

[DRII]

as Chris Fowler pointed out, it was kind of crummy that the Wimbledon officials didn't even redo the lines for the women's final!

 

[skyline]

Lol if Serena was in 2013 form she would decimate the field. No one currently on tour is can even reach near half of the form that Serena was in that year. And 2013 had other better top players in form.

Serena just needs to get back to her form pre pregnancy. ie. 2016.
And she'll be competitive once again.

Exactly.

 

[70後]

Well for starters, congrats to Kerber for winning Wimbledon. This final was a match of 2 comeback queens, each of a different type. Kerberos comeback this year is emotional/mental...following what happened last year after a stellar 2016. Serena continues to find her way back after becoming a mother.

I will say I figured Kerber would win this match unless Serena played above her level set throughout the tournament. She did what she had to do to make the final, but her match against Giorgi was a little telling of there still being a ways to go for her. Her draw opening helped her make the final, only playing 1 seed in 6 matches. However this final is going to be a mental victory for Serena to build on.

Congrats Angie, shes won 3 of the 4 now, which I never thought would happen several years ago.

It is a win/win for both of them.

This tournament has been a big win for lots of players in their own way : Giorgi, Ostapenko, Goerges, Kasatkina, Hsieh, of course,

Bencic, Zvonareva, and even the great Li Na back in legends.

 

[Harry_Wild]

It was one of the dud WTA GS Championship matches in recent memory! Serena was way off in her timing, made tons of errors and looked so tired too! Kerber seem to not really play hard either; seeing how Serena was playing, kind of held off on pushing the score further for respect of Serena! It sort of had the feeling of an exhibition match. I am going to watch it again for kicks!

 

[nolefam_2024]

Kerber with more slams than Azarenka, Kvitova and Kuznetsova in just 2.5 years. Incredible

Vika had chance, just started getting better and got pregnant.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Vika had chance, just started getting better and got pregnant.

Vika also got unlucky to draw a GOATing Serena whenever she did well, especially at the US Open.

 

[coupergear]

I'm happy for Angie. She deserved and played her heart out this tournament.

I felt Serena was on borrowed time and was exposed for her conditioning.

Agree. So much of high-level tennis comes down to movement. Yes, the strokes have to be there, but it's the movement that backs up those strokes that separates the good from the great. Serena appears to be carrying probably 15-20 lbs more weight right now than when she is in top shape, to my eye. As you say, to be expected. That is going to effect her movement, ability to get to shots, ability to properly set up for shots. Also effects mindset/tactics, a player who's not moving well will try to end points earlier. They know they can't hang in the rallies. Given that Serena had a big number of winners, but an equally big number of UEs, tells me she's trying to end things early. She was ground down by Kerber's consistency. Also felt like she was behind in her footwork, ended up trying to muscle through a lot of shots with upper body only. She's so talented, she can get away with it, to a point. Once she gets her legs back under her, and her weight down, she'll be back to the top.

 

[Shangri La]

The Asian footfault linesperson was there so no way can Serena win.

 

[Mr.Lob]

The Asian footfault linesperson was there so no way can Serena win.

Shino is one of the best. Give that lady props for calling another great game.

Did you notice Serena didn't want a piece of Shino this time? Learned her lesson.

 

[Mr.Lob]

Serena just needs to get back to her form pre pregnancy. ie. 2016.
And she'll be competitive once again.

"Just"? Have you given birth lately? Easier said than done, pal..

And "competitive once again"? Didn't she just play in a slam final? That silly comment deserves a double.

 

[Bobby Jr]

I enjoy women's tennis as much as I can, which often isn't a lot, but a niggling thing kept being thrown in my face watching this match. Serena's athletic prowess is vastly overstated to the point it's almost a joke. She has great tennis skills, great technique compared to the pack, is stronger than most - but she is so sluggish in much of her movement. Time and time again she looks exasperated when missing hail-Mary shots out wide which no male player period - not even Karlovic or Isner - would regard as being a particularly compromised situation. And I doubt Graf or Henin would either.

I know there's always talk about how much better the men move than the women but in Serena I see someone who is has so little actual sprite in her movement compared to Graf, Henin and a few others.

I have no problem at all with arguments that Serena is the greatest female tennis player ever, but way too often I read she's the greatest athlete too. I just don't see it in speed/agility terms. I think there is so much cringe factor in the fact that every criticism of her seems to be interpreted as thinly-veiled racism when the truth is she is empirically quite average in athletic terms. She is just super lucky to be in a sport which requires tons of tennis-specific skills/technique - of which she had ample.

 

[Mr.Lob]

I enjoy women's tennis as much as I can, which often isn't a lot, but a niggling thing kept being thrown in my face watching this match. Serena's athletic prowess is vastly overstated to the point it's almost a joke. She has great tennis skills, great technique compared to the pack, is stronger than most - but she is so sluggish in much of her movement. Time and time again she looks exasperated when missing hail-Mary shots out wide which no male player period - not even Karlovic or Isner - would regard as being a particularly compromised situation. And I doubt Graf or Henin would either.

I know there's always talk about how much better the men move than the women but in Serena I see someone who is has so little actual sprite in her movement compared to Graf, Henin and a few others.

I have no problem at all with arguments that Serena is the greatest female tennis player ever, but way too often I read she's the greatest athlete too. I just don't see it in speed/agility terms. I think there is so much cringe factor in the fact that every criticism of her seems to be interpreted as thinly-veiled racism when the truth is she is empirically quite average in athletic terms. She is just super lucky to be in a sport which requires tons of tennis-specific skills/technique - of which she had ample.

You do realize she's had a baby, put on weight, is older, therefore no longer has the athleticism most are accustomed in seeing from her?

 

[Man of steel]

I enjoy women's tennis as much as I can, which often isn't a lot, but a niggling thing kept being thrown in my face watching this match. Serena's athletic prowess is vastly overstated to the point it's almost a joke. She has great tennis skills, great technique compared to the pack, is stronger than most - but she is so sluggish in much of her movement. Time and time again she looks exasperated when missing hail-Mary shots out wide which no male player period - not even Karlovic or Isner - would regard as being a particularly compromised situation. And I doubt Graf or Henin would either.

I know there's always talk about how much better the men move than the women but in Serena I see someone who is has so little actual sprite in her movement compared to Graf, Henin and a few others.

I have no problem at all with arguments that Serena is the greatest female tennis player ever, but way too often I read she's the greatest athlete too. I just don't see it in speed/agility terms. I think there is so much cringe factor in the fact that every criticism of her seems to be interpreted as thinly-veiled racism when the truth is she is empirically quite average in athletic terms. She is just super lucky to be in a sport which requires tons of tennis-specific skills/technique - of which she had ample.

What people like you don't even understand and always seem to be take point blank is that you feel that the Serena that you are seeing now is somehow the speed and agility that she has had throughout her career.

When in fact her movement and mobility has declined since 2014. Graf and henin never played to 36 years of age. Neither actually ever played in their 30's or came back from a pregnancy so you using them as barometer for great movement and agility isn't exactly a sound comparison is it.

It's like you completely forgotten serena's past form and take her current form as the way she's been throughout her career.

Watch any of her matches from pre-2014 and you can see the night and day differences between the athletic ability of the Serena now to Serena then.

It's like comparing Federer movement from now to his movement in 07. Or Nadals form now to his movement in 08. It's stupid and the fact that you don't take that into account for Serena while you would probably do it for players like Fed and Nadal (since you have those rose rinted glasses for Graf and Henin, even though their movement and agility also declined) is telling.

 

[Man of steel]

"Just"? Have you given birth lately? Easier said than done, pal..

And "competitive once again"? Didn't she just play in a slam final? That silly comment deserves a double.

Haha I know. It probably won't happen. She probably has been working most on her fitness but it's getting the point where the only place I see her being competitive is wimbledon due to it being the fastest surface and her strongest weapon being so dangerous on it.

 

[PDJ]

I am so happy Angie won, I was sick of the media coverage surrounding Serena and her baby. It was like a funeral during Angie's lap of honour and trophy presentation, whereas the Wimbledon crowd cheered Serena till death, not to forget the pundits fawning at Serena and her newly found motherhood (as if there hasn't been a champion who came back after having a baby). Serena speaking for all the mothers in the world was hilarious, people spoke of it like she is the only working mother in the world

In fairness to 'Mrs Williams' I imagine there was at least one section of 'mothers' nodding agreement with her comments: her fellow multi-millionaires that employ a full-time staff.
First world problems...

 

[Mr.Lob]

Haha I know. It probably won't happen. She probably has been working most on her fitness but it's getting the point where the only place I see her being competitive is wimbledon due to it being the fastest surface and her strongest weapon being so dangerous on it.

Serena looked like she slimmed down a bit from the F.O. She'll lose some more weight, get fitter, and be better prepared for U.S Open. She looked pretty upset after losing to Kerber. That translates into extra motivation for her. Will be interesting.

Thinking of going to Cincy again this year. Maybe I'll buy Serena a triple scoop ice cream sundae... before her match with Sugarpova.

 

[Bobby Jr]

What people like you don't even understand and always seem to be take point blank is that you feel that the Serena that you are seeing now is somehow the speed and agility that she has had throughout her career.

No, this match just reminded me she has been a hefferlump for a decade, at least.

When in fact her movement and mobility has declined since 2014. Graf and henin never played to 36 years of age. Neither actually ever played in their 30's or came back from a pregnancy so you using them as barometer for great movement and agility isn't exactly a sound comparison is it.

Even in her prime she was wailing like she'd been shot when reaching for balls which Graf or Henin would readily get to.

It's like you completely forgotten serena's past form and take her current form as the way she's been throughout her career.

Or it's like it's not that at all.

 

[PDJ]

Serena looked like she slimmed down a bit from the F.O. She'll lose some more weight, get fitter, and be better prepared for U.S Open. She looked pretty upset after losing to Kerber. That translates into extra motivation for her. Will be interesting.

Thinking of going to Cincy again this year. Maybe I'll buy Serena a triple scoop ice cream sundae... before her match with Sugarpova.

I'm not sure if she was slimmer than the FO? The catsuit made her look much bigger than she probably is. That said, her Wimbledon attire afforded her few favours.
She's been overweight before and strolled up and won.
Her tennis got better throughout the tournament but she only played one quality player and lost 3&3.
A very odd Wimbledon for the women generally.

 

[Man of steel]

No, this match just reminded me she has been a hefferlump for a decade, at least.


Even in her prime she was wailing like she'd been shot when reaching for balls which Graf or Henin would readily get to.


Or it's like it's not that at all.

She would get to balls that Graf and henin wouldn't even get to. The fact that you think Henin was even faster or had better court coverage than serena is laughable. Clijsters Serena and Venus all had better court coverage than henin.

Like always when it comes to Serena you make idiotic comments that have no basis in fact or anything that even resembles reason.

 

[Bobby Jr]

She would get to balls that Graf and henin wouldn't even get to. The fact that you think Henin was even faster or had better court coverage than serena is laughable. Clijsters Serena and Venus all had better court coverage than henin.

You're wrong imo. I watched tennis closely for years - even going back to videos to see if memories are playing tricks. Serena's time as a truly elite mover were done in her 20s. Doesn't even matter that Graf and others retired or were done so much earlier - it's the incessant, current fanboying of Serena as the greatest athlete ever in tennis which isn't remotely backed up by watching virtually any video of here playing in recent years.

People falsely conflate her winning and often the dominance in the way she wins with athleticism. She is a great athlete, but is routinely overrated because of her all-round tennis ability.

Like always when it comes to Serena you make idiotic comments that have no basis in fact or anything that even resembles reason.

Par for the course for you, among others here, to ignore empirical evidence.

 

[mike danny]

That moment when you realize Kerber would rather play Serena than Halep

 

[mike danny]

By the way, Kerber has beaten Serena twice in slam finals. What other players have managed multiple wins over Serena in major finals?

 

[icedevil0289]

Mr Feeny is constantly defending racists and then comes into this thread to whitesplain to minorities how to and not to go about recognizing racism. Lol you can't make this level of narcissistic stupidity up

Lol at white people telling any poc what is and what is not racism and then going on about insults. You know what is insulting actual racism

 

[Service Ace]

Lol at white people telling any poc what is and what is not racism and then going on about insults. You know what is insulting actual racism

He has an agenda and thinks by pushing this idea that he is civilized and any who call him out is some type of verbally abusive brute, he is fooling people (and himself) into believing he has the moral high ground. Classic tool of racists and their sympathizers

 

[icedevil0289]

He has an agenda and thinks by pushing this idea that he is civilized and any who call him out is some type of verbally abusive brute, he is fooling people (and himself) into believing he has the moral high ground. Classic tool of racists and their sympathizers

Sadly given the demographic of this forum not even surprised.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

What people like you don't even understand and always seem to be take point blank is that you feel that the Serena that you are seeing now is somehow the speed and agility that she has had throughout her career.

When in fact her movement and mobility has declined since 2014. Graf and henin never played to 36 years of age. Neither actually ever played in their 30's or came back from a pregnancy so you using them as barometer for great movement and agility isn't exactly a sound comparison is it.

Agreed. It is a false negative that either means the person pushing that has never watched Serena play since her professional debut and is operating on pure hatred, or the person does not care that he is pushing a lie, because it is more important that he damn everything about Serena, from life to soul.

It's like comparing Federer movement from now to his movement in 07. Or Nadals form now to his movement in 08. It's stupid and the fact that you don't take that into account for Serena while you would probably do it for players like Fed and Nadal (since you have those rose rinted glasses for Graf and Henin, even though their movement and agility also declined) is telling.

Indeed. If Serena was not their created Black Enemy, you would not hear anything negative about her form, as she fit the "right" player idea. Its funny, Henin's fake "elbow" problem was her simply running away because she knew she would never dominate Serena, or go anywhere near her majors records, but the usual suspects all bought the lie that she retired due to what amounts to a "boo-boo" of a strained elbow. Yes, that was a legitimate excuse for Henin running away from the sport like a coward, but foe Serena, its innuendo, unsubstantiated BS around the clock.

Then. there's 37 year old Federer--on an athletic scale, he may as well be 40, yet his more-often-than-not, relentless beatdown of players half his age never raises a red flag at all about what might be in his training kit from the very same people who attack Serena morning, noon and night. Nope. You will not see any theories about this alleged "golden eagle" (nevermind the Reich allusions this makes, and how its inapplicable to Federer), because he's...special. That's why he can wipe the courts with the "next generation" after years of aging, back problems, mono--the works.

 

[WDC]

I'm not sure if she was slimmer than the FO? The catsuit made her look much bigger than she probably is. That said, her Wimbledon attire afforded her few favours.
She's been overweight before and strolled up and won.
Her tennis got better throughout the tournament but she only played one quality player and lost 3&3.
A very odd Wimbledon for the women generally.

A pretty poor women's tournament overall the best player won it for sure and she can win more in the next 2-3 years, coached by a very good man indeed. Williams looks finished, legs look totally shot her game now looks almost totally big serve and bullying the textbook weak woman's second serve. Really Mladanovic should have took her out second round, after that the draw was kind and the quarter and semi final opponents brainless, trying to outhit Williams. Anj showed exactly how to play her and on the hard courts it will only get harder for Williams. No matter what the refueling, once the legs have gone they are gone, no way back.

Very good result for Tennis but the whole event very poor, played on dry tired grass surfaces, not a great spectacle. Wimbledon is falling behind some of the others, much better Tennis at both the Aussie and the French.

 

[70後]

A pretty poor women's tournament overall the best player won it for sure and she can win more in the next 2-3 years, coached by a very good man indeed. Williams looks finished, legs look totally shot her game now looks almost totally big serve and bullying the textbook weak woman's second serve. Really Mladanovic should have took her out second round, after that the draw was kind and the quarter and semi final opponents brainless, trying to outhit Williams. Anj showed exactly how to play her and on the hard courts it will only get harder for Williams. No matter what the refueling, once the legs have gone they are gone, no way back.

Very good result for Tennis but the whole event very poor, played on dry tired grass surfaces, not a great spectacle. Wimbledon is falling behind some of the others, much better Tennis at both the Aussie and the French.

By my rough estimate, at least half of your 199 posts on this forum have to do with expressing your Serena anger. Your very first post is in fact a Serena post disguised as a general comment. You attempt to partially camouflage this by including other posts pretending to cheer for other players. But I believe your sole and only motive on this forum is to attack Serena. In one post in a now locked thread you suddenly claimed you "love Sloane" - for the record - naturally. On other forums, this is otherwise known as the "Venus defence". Since Venus is also your target, in your case you use the "Sloane defence". Of course, you are no fan of Sloane, nor of any other player as far as I can tell. You never support Sloane and your support of other players is generally cursory, superficial and perfunctory.

 

[Man of steel]

You're wrong imo. I watched tennis closely for years - even going back to videos to see if memories are playing tricks. Serena's time as a truly elite mover were done in her 20s. Doesn't even matter that Graf and others retired or were done so much earlier - it's the incessant, current fanboying of Serena as the greatest athlete ever in tennis which isn't remotely backed up by watching virtually any video of here playing in recent years.

People falsely conflate her winning and often the dominance in the way she wins with athleticism. She is a great athlete, but is routinely overrated because of her all-round tennis ability.


Par for the course for you, among others here, to ignore empirical evidence.

Lol you really don't know much do you if you think her elite movement was gone in her 20's. I don't know what videos you've been watching or whatever rose-tinted memory that you are recalling but you are highly misinformed. Serena in her early 30's was a better mover than her mid to late 20's. Her fitness was ridiculously high when she teamed up with mouratoglou. The point where she was even training with Jeremy Chardy at the time who was in the top 100 and playing practice matches for hours where she trained in Mauritius. It's why her season in 2012 and 2013 were so good.

Yes it does matter if Graf and henin retired early. Because we didn't see the inevitable decline that would have happened if they played in their mid 30's like we are seeing with Serena. They both bailed before they turned 30. And now you seem to be comparing Serena of now to the movement of Graf and Henin when they were at their peak. It's frankly just dum.

What empirical evidence have you provided? Your opinion doesn't hold any empirical data or theory no matter how many times you say it.

 

[Man of steel]

By the way, Kerber has beaten Serena twice in slam finals. What other players have managed multiple wins over Serena in major finals?

Venus.

Is it that much of a big deal considering she faced a Serena that is 36 years old returning from giving birth and only in her 5th tournament back.

 

[Mainad]

By the way, Kerber has beaten Serena twice in slam finals. What other players have managed multiple wins over Serena in major finals?

Venus beat Serena in the finals of 2001 US Open and 2008 Wimbledon. She and Kerber are the only ones to defeat her in Slam finals more than once.

 

[Mainad]

Venus.

Is it that much of a big deal considering she faced a Serena that is 36 years old returning from giving birth and only in her 5th tournament back.

Beating Serena in a Slam final is like beating Federer in one. It doesn't matter how old or out of shape they may be, they are still the GOATS of tennis and obviously still good enough to have made the final in the first place.

 

[coupergear]

I enjoy women's tennis as much as I can, which often isn't a lot, but a niggling thing kept being thrown in my face watching this match. Serena's athletic prowess is vastly overstated to the point it's almost a joke. She has great tennis skills, great technique compared to the pack, is stronger than most - but she is so sluggish in much of her movement. Time and time again she looks exasperated when missing hail-Mary shots out wide which no male player period - not even Karlovic or Isner - would regard as being a particularly compromised situation. And I doubt Graf or Henin would either.

I know there's always talk about how much better the men move than the women but in Serena I see someone who is has so little actual sprite in her movement compared to Graf, Henin and a few others.

I have no problem at all with arguments that Serena is the greatest female tennis player ever, but way too often I read she's the greatest athlete too. I just don't see it in speed/agility terms. I think there is so much cringe factor in the fact that every criticism of her seems to be interpreted as thinly-veiled racism when the truth is she is empirically quite average in athletic terms. She is just super lucky to be in a sport which requires tons of tennis-specific skills/technique - of which she had ample.

I would disagree with your opinion. First, your premise is a bit overstated. I don't really hear a lot said or written about "greatest athlete ever" about Serena, or really about any athlete. This is even more subjective than the more familiar GOAT arguments within each sport.

Serena is simply faster, stronger and bigger than the rest of the women, has been for her entire career minus the past 3-4 years. Yes, currently, she just had a baby, is overweight, in her mid thirties, a decade past her physical prime. Like Federer, it's now her tennis skills that will have to carry her more often, as her physical dominance fades. But even today, if you ran a NFL style combine with all the WTA tour players, doing sprints, vertical leap, agility drills, serve speed, etc. independent of specific tennis skills. Serena, even in current condition, I'd hazard to guess would be easily top quarter of the field. In her prime, she would have completely dominated the field in that kind of situation.

So yes, it's her incredible racket skills in combination with superior athleticism compared to the field.

If you take the definition of "best athlete ever" as the one who most dominated their field, in their day, she's in the argument. No one is arguing she has a better vertical than MJ, or a better jab than Ali, or can run the 100 faster than Carl Lewis.

 

[Deleted member 512391]

as Chris Fowler pointed out, it was kind of crummy that the Wimbledon officials didn't even redo the lines for the women's final!

What's the rule? Do they redo the lines after every match or just once per day (before the matches)?

 

[Bobby Jr]

..Then. there's 37 year old Federer--on an athletic scale, he may as well be 40, yet his more-often-than-not, relentless beatdown of players half his age never raises a red flag at all about what might be in his training kit from the very same people who attack Serena morning, noon and night. Nope. You will not see any theories about this alleged "golden eagle" (nevermind the Reich allusions this makes, and how its inapplicable to Federer), because he's...special. That's why he can wipe the courts with the "next generation" after years of aging, back problems, mono--the works.

Quote how you segue from any criticism of Serena's massive fanboy protection from any criticism on the grounds is must be racism of a sort to Federer's old age performances is astounding.

Federer, like Serena thump opponents primarily because of their tennis skills, not their athleticism. Despite their declining athleticism. And it shows in the way they lose when they do - the wheels fall off when they're not playing quite as sharply as they usually do - just as it did for Federer and Serena in their losses here. Previously, those storms could be weathered much of the time but it gets harder - hence Federer trying to play in new ways which reduce the toll on him especially early in tournaments.

Him wiping the floor with the next gen, as it is for Serena, is mostly about their skillsets. To make out that Federer must be playing well in primarily skill-based sport because he's somehow suspiciously beating the newcomers by taking drugs is poor logic. It's the runners/grinders who keep winning in their later years who should rouse suspicions before anyone else here.

 

[Bobby Jr]

Lol you really don't know much do you if you think her elite movement was gone in her 20's. I don't know what videos you've been watching or whatever rose-tinted memory that you are recalling but you are highly misinformed...

Rose-tinted means the opposite of what you think it means.

Yes it does matter if Graf and henin retired early. Because we didn't see the inevitable decline that would have happened if they played in their mid 30's like we are seeing with Serena. They both bailed before they turned 30. And now you seem to be comparing Serena of now to the movement of Graf and Henin when they were at their peak. It's frankly just dum

I have done nothing of the sort. It is irrelevant how they may have competed had they stuck around until their mid-late 30s. I was comparing them in their broad prime with Serena around 10 years ago - let's call it 2008-10. Serena, even then was nowhere near the athlete she was in 2002-03 in terms of how spritely she was around the court.

What empirical evidence have you provided? Your opinion doesn't hold any empirical data or theory no matter how many times you say it.

You can use words however you like but they're meaningless - as are the majority of your posts on the board which are nothing more than gushing fanboyism of Serena.

Can't be bothered talking to a wall whose posts are almost 100% comprised of running defence for all and anything related to Serena and seeing malice in any criticism of anything to do with her.

 

[DRII]

I would disagree with your opinion. First, your premise is a bit overstated. I don't really hear a lot said or written about "greatest athlete ever" about Serena, or really about any athlete. This is even more subjective than the more familiar GOAT arguments within each sport.

Serena is simply faster, stronger and bigger than the rest of the women, has been for her entire career minus the past 3-4 years. Yes, currently, she just had a baby, is overweight, in her mid thirties, a decade past her physical prime. Like Federer, it's now her tennis skills that will have to carry her more often, as her physical dominance fades. But even today, if you ran a NFL style combine with all the WTA tour players, doing sprints, vertical leap, agility drills, serve speed, etc. independent of specific tennis skills. Serena, even in current condition, I'd hazard to guess would be easily top quarter of the field. In her prime, she would have completely dominated the field in that kind of situation.

So yes, it's her incredible racket skills in combination with superior athleticism compared to the field.

If you take the definition of "best athlete ever" as the one who most dominated their field, in their day, she's in the argument. No one is arguing she has a better vertical than MJ, or a better jab than Ali, or can run the 100 faster than Carl Lewis.

Venus has always been a better athlete than Serena before her chronic auto-immune condition.

 

[PDJ]

I vaguely recall a thread about who was quicker between Williams and Graf: my take was I thought Graf was because she just appeared more fluid - Graf always seemed to run with her racquet in a decent position for hitting the ball. Williams sometimes runs with her racquet all over the place.
I've always thought Williams was more similar to Margaret Court- also deceptively quick- in that during a point was very fast- but laboured between.
May be another reason I personally thought Graf quicker - didn't take an age to serve, and no messing around between points. She just got on with the task in hand.

 

[PDJ]

Rose-tinted means the opposite of what you think it means.


I have done nothing of the sort. It is irrelevant how they may have competed had they stuck around until their mid-late 30s. I was comparing them in their broad prime with Serena around 10 years ago - let's call it 2008-10. Serena, even then was nowhere near the athlete she was in 2002-03 in terms of how spritely she was around the court.


You can use words however you like but they're meaningless - as are the majority of your posts on the board which are nothing more than gushing fanboyism of Serena.

Can't be bothered talking to a wall whose posts are almost 100% comprised of running defence for all and anything related to Serena and seeing malice in any criticism of anything to do with her.

I agree with a great deal of what you write, but I would say @Man of steel , whilst an uber Williams fan, is among the more rational, and like @Vanhool , retains a sense of humour.
I think you may have to agree, to disagree.

 

[coupergear]

Venus has always been a better athlete than Serena before her chronic auto-immune condition.

Huh? With those little twig legs? You're telling me Venus prime had more explosive power and athleticism than Serena prime? Faster bigger stronger? Not buying it. If she did, she'd have been the one that dominated--I don't believe the difference in their racket skills is that vast.

 

[Soianka]

Huh? With those little twig legs? You're telling me Venus prime had more explosive power and athleticism than Serena prime? Faster bigger stronger? Not buying it. If she did, she'd have been the one that dominated--I don't believe the difference in their racket skills is that vast.

They are 2 completely different players.

One big difference is consistency and effectiveness of their serves based on completely different techniques, especially 2nd serves.

Of course there is no way to say how much further Venus would have went if she didnt have a chronic illness.

 

[skyline]

Haha I know. It probably won't happen. She probably has been working most on her fitness but it's getting the point where the only place I see her being competitive is wimbledon due to it being the fastest surface and her strongest weapon being so dangerous on it.

I think she’s still going to be competitive at USO. AO and RG, not so sure about.

Weight-wise she’s gotten about as far as you’d expect 10 months out, especially given that she’s, let’s face it, thick naturally. She can shed at least 10 more tho, and I expect she will.

I give her another two years to compete seriously for slams. After that it’s curtains.

Had she held off pregnancy by a year, she’d probably have grabbed at least one more slam in 2017...

 

[skyline]

They are 2 completely different players.

One big difference is consistency and effectiveness of their serves based on completely different techniques, especially 2nd serves.

Of course there is no way to say how much further Venus would have went if she didnt have a chronic illness.

Venus was still playing excellent tennis on a fairly consistent basis in 2014. It’s too bad she didn’t win Wimbledon that year, would have been great swan song...

 

[Soianka]

Venus was still playing excellent tennis on a fairly consistent basis in 2014. It’s too bad she didn’t win Wimbledon that year, would have been great swan song...

Winning last year would have been awesome for her. She was playing great last year and beat a lot of very good players. She probably would have beaten Muguruza as well but seems to have completely run out of gas after the 1st set in the final.

 

[70後]

WTA Top 4 after Wimbledon

1. Halep (Roland Garros)
2. Wozniacki (Australian Open)
3. Stephens (US Open)
4. Kerber (Wimbledon)

It looks really good.

It shows the WTA is playing to a high and consistently high standard, even if those four have not reached the absolute heights of 100% Serena. Even players like Kvitova, Goerges who have been winning so many singles matches lately are only lower top 10.

 

[PDJ]

It looks really good.

It shows the WTA is playing to a high and consistently high standard, even if those four have not reached the absolute heights of 100% Serena. Even players like Kvitova, Goerges who have been winning so many singles matches lately are only lower top 10.

You also have to take in to account how heavily weighted re points are for majors.
It's more interesting to see where said player is once they defend their points.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Didn't see the match. Great Angie or Bad Serena?

 

[PDJ]

Didn't see the match. Great Angie or Bad Serena?

Both.

Kerber played solidly - going for it on big points. Importantly, keeping her nerve.

Williams was spraying the ball - as she's apt to do - but normally finds a way to win.
Her volleying and movement was average.

I'd say Kerber won it rather than Williams losing it.

Just my take, I'm sure others saw it differently.