2019 Australian Open 4R - [4] Alexander Zverev vs. [16] Milos Raonic

[Tshooter]

... but see a sports psychologist, a therapist...

Why assume he's not ?

 

[veroniquem]

He's good at glorified Exos. Majors not as much. Conversely, Big 3 are in it now for more Majors.

Masters are not glorified exos
He’s better in best of 3 format, a bit reminiscent of Davydenko.

 

[veroniquem]

Why assume he's not ?

I don’t know. I just hope he does it next if not yet

 

[Deon Sanders]

Masters are not glorified exos
He’s better in best of 3 format, a bit reminiscent of Davydenko.

Not all masters are

Clay masters are

 

[Tshooter]

Masters are not glorified exos
He’s better in best of 3 format, a bit reminiscent of Davydenko.

Someone referred to the London Exo. So I referred back to the same end of season player vacation/party/guaranteed $$$ glorified Exo they do in London.

 

[abmk]

Well

Well how smartly you ignored points when Nadal choked on set points?you only proved my case that Nadal lose to Djokovic even if he plays better. Look at 2 set points that Nadal choked, noone argued that Nadal played great to earn set points .

I already mentioned for 1 SP.

Coming to the SP that Nadal had (at 7-6), djokovic first hit a BH DTL to put him on the defensive, then I/O FH, nadal was way back on the baseline in the ad corner and hit CC FH as a % shot, not because he was afraid.

It was Djokovic saving it, not Nadal choking it.

The other 2 SPs:

at 6-5 Nadal SP, Djokovic came up with a serve out wide on 1st serve to force the error.
at 8-7 Nadal SP, Djokovic with a serve out wide on 1st serve to get the error.

those were the 3 SPs Nadal had.

Here from Tennis abstract : (http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/20180713-M-Wimbledon-SF-Rafael_Nadal-Novak_Djokovic.html)

Novak Djokovic 1‑16‑6 5‑6 1st serve wide; forehand return crosscourt, forced error.

Rafael Nadal 1‑16‑67‑6 1st serve to body; forehand return inside-in (deep); backhand down the middle; forehand crosscourt; backhand down the line; backhand down the line; backhand slice down the line; forehand inside-out; forehand crosscourt; backhand drop shot approach shot down the line; backhand slice at net down the line,forced error. (10-shot rally)

Novak Djokovic 1‑16‑67‑81st serve wide; forehand return down the middle, forced error.

again, seriously stop deluding yourself - like making out 1st serves to be 2nd serves and chokes out of nothing.

 

[veroniquem]

Someone referred to the London Exo. So I referred back to the end of season player vacation/party/guaranteed $$$ glorified Exo they do in London.

Well, whatever your personal opinion of WTF is, Z is good in ALL best of 3 events, so your analysis doesn’t stand.

 

[abmk]

Okay i take that but how about tiebreak where he choked on 2 set points ? asfar as 2007 is concerned Nadal was not confident . After 2008 Nadal bp conversion in non clay slam has been good but it dropped after 2013.

oh yeah, Nadal was very confident, having taken 4th set 6-2. Then 2 BPs each at 1 all and 2 all.
Just that Federer was clutch and saved those 4 SPs.
Then Federer raised his level and beat Nadal in that 5th set.

Addressed the 3rd set TB of Wim 18 final in my previous post.

 

[Noletheking]

I already mentioned for 1 SP.

Coming to the SP that Nadal had (at 7-6), djokovic first hit a BH DTL to put him on the defensive, then I/O FH, nadal was way back on the baseline in the ad corner and hit CC FH as a % shot, not because he was afraid.

It was Djokovic saving it, not Nadal choking it.

The other 2 SPs:

at 6-5 Nadal SP, Djokovic came up with a serve out wide on 1st serve to force the error.
at 8-7 Nadal SP, Djokovic with a serve out wide on 1st serve to get the error.

those were the 3 SPs Nadal had.

Here from Tennis abstract : (http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/20180713-M-Wimbledon-SF-Rafael_Nadal-Novak_Djokovic.html)

Novak Djokovic 1‑16‑6 5‑6 1st serve wide; forehand return crosscourt, forced error.

Rafael Nadal 1‑16‑67‑6 1st serve to body; forehand return inside-in (deep); backhand down the middle; forehand crosscourt; backhand down the line; backhand down the line; backhand slice down the line; forehand inside-out; forehand crosscourt; backhand drop shot approach shot down the line; backhand slice at net down the line,forced error. (10-shot rally)

Novak Djokovic 1‑16‑67‑81st serve wide; forehand return down the middle, forced error.

again, seriously stop deluding yourself - like making out 1st serves to be 2nd serves and chokes out of nothing.

I disagree on Nadal playing cc. well by Nadal standard that was a routine fdl but he was not confident even through out the match he made way better shots.

 

[Tshooter]

Well, whatever your personal opinion of WTF is, Z is good in ALL best of 3 events, so your analysis doesn’t stand.

A thousand pardons but I lost the thread. My "analysis" concerning what ?

 

[abmk]

I disagree on Nadal playing cc. well by Nadal standard that was a routine fdl but he was not confident even through out the match he made way better shots.

Nadal was way behind the baseline and it'd be a high risk shot to try to go FH DTL from there. If he wasn't that much behind the baseline, he could've gone for the FH DTL.
He doesn't have to go for high risk shots every time. But just because he didn't go for the FH DTL, doesn't mean he was afraid or that he choked. He just went for the higher% play that time.

 

[hanjulian]

Zverev was nervous that Coric could be his potential QF
LOL

 

[Noletheking]

Nadal was way behind the baseline and it'd be a high risk shot to try to go FH DTL from there. If he wasn't that much behind the baseline, he could've gone for the FH DTL.
He doesn't have to go for high risk shots every time.

You've to take high risk shots when opponent offer you no room. Nadal was his usual behind the baseline not way behind and he went for a safe shot to hit cross court.

 

[abmk]

You've to take high risk shots when opponent offer you no room. Nadal was his usual behind the baseline not way behind and he went for a safe shot to hit cross court.

Nadal was considerably more aggressive off the ground and took far more chances than Djokovic did in that match.
So stop making a mountain out a molehill out of 1 point where Nadal wasn't that aggressive.
Nowhere near assured he wins it even if he was aggressive anyways.

 

[Gary Duane]

God the people in this thread are stupid. Raonic is playing well = Zverev being garbage is what's happening.
Zverev plays well = Raonic is being a mug.

Are you people just incapable of understanding when there is GOOD tennis? Jesus.

Some of us think that good tennis is when BOTH players are playing good tennis!!!

 

[Noletheking]

Nadal was considerably more aggressive off the ground and took far more chances than Djokovic did in that match.
So stop making a mountain out a molehill out of 1 point where Nadal wasn't that aggressive.
Nowhere near assured he wins it even if he was aggressive anyways.

Not really. He was passive on key points and returning from stand . you can see how Nadal went for safe shot when it should've been a routine fdl for him , may be he hit the net on one point in tb while going for FTL might be the reason he went defensive.

 

[Gary Duane]

Masters are not glorified exos
He’s better in best of 3 format, a bit reminiscent of Davydenko.

But can you explain his performance in the first two sets tonight? I don't dislike this kid, not by a long shot, and I hoped he would do well. I certainly like him a lot better than the big Canadian lunk. But if he's good in Bo3, how can he be that bad in the first two sets after an extra day's rest?

 

[abmk]

Not really. He was passive on key points and returning from stand . you can see how Nadal went for safe shot when it should've been a routine fdl for him , may be he hit the net on one point in tb while going for FTL might be the reason he went defensive.

oh please. I already corrected you on this bullsh*t. Stop making up fantasy delusions to suit your narrative.

--------------------

Djokovic is up 5-3, Nadal in a long rally comes up with an excellent fh drop shot. (2:41:04)

Watch the point at 2:42:49: 5 all. Nadal crushes a BH from defensive position and then hits a dropshot winner.
then at 6 all, Nadal is one winning the point by hitting I/O FH winner.

that's all fear ? no, just your utterly ridiculous fantasy delusions.

Nadal came up with a frigging drop shot to save MP in the 5th set . that's a guy who's afraid ?

----

Coming to the SP that Nadal had (at 7-6), djokovic first hit a BH DTL to put him on the defensive, then I/O FH, nadal was way back on the baseline in the ad corner and hit CC FH as a % shot, not because he was afraid.

------------

 

[duaneeo]

Before he was having trouble navigating through BO5 losing focus or whatever other reasons. He still hasn't mastered that part, but today wasn't that.

Zverev was in mental lockdown the first two sets. He finally snapped out of it in the 3rd set, but the hole had been dug.

 

[Noletheking]

But can you explain his performance in the first two sets tonight? I don't dislike this kid, not by a long shot, and I hoped he would do well. I certainly like him a lot better than the big Canadian lunk. But if he's good in Bo3, how can he be that bad in the first two sets after an extra day's rest?

Ask Murray how he had Fed's no in bo3 but struggled to even win a set in bo5? may be in bo5 opponents come out more prepared because it's a slam ? may be different mentality to approach bo5?

 

[Noletheking]

oh please. I already corrected you on this bullsh*t. Stop making up fantasy delusions to suit your narrative.

--------------------

Lmao at correcting by saying Nadal was way behind baseline on sp but in reality he was as usual behind and had a shot to make. Go watch that point again.

 

[Gary Duane]

OK. On a lighter note, I'll let everyone laugh at me. I've been dead tired, fell asleep, wake up to see Nadal with his right knee wrapped. WTF? Again? And staying way back, trying to win set 2 after losing the 1st. He's playing Karen, a boy named Sue. So I start watching. Maybe it's going to happen two nights in a row? Then I start thinking, wait a minute, Karen got eliminated? Then I start to wake up and realize that I fell asleep watching the AO on TC, but it stayed there when coverage switched to ESPN. Then I realize that ESPN is advertising Cheetah Club for Men, which is a REALLY sleazy place close to me that is open almost 24/7 and is a strip club. I started to wonder what planet I'm on.

 

[Deleted member 3771]

I liked McEnroes comment on Raonic’s match point at 5-4. “Looked like we had gone back to 12 and under tennis there”.

Meelosh did get a little passive himself at 5-4 match point, but Zed didn't like the off pace slice too much and made a few errors against it in the TB. Zed was looking a bit out of ideas

 

[abmk]

Lmao at correcting by saying Nadal was way behind baseline on sp but in reality he was as usual behind and had a shot to make. Go watch that point again.

I was pointing out to the other points in the TB, but you do stay in your fantasy bubble, don't you ?


I gave 4 instances of crucial points where Nadal was aggressive and took the initiative.
You are still stuck with 1 point where he wasn't ?

 

[Gary Duane]

Ask Murray how he had Fed's no in bo3 but struggled to even win a set in bo5? may be in bo5 opponents come out more prepared because it's a slam ? may be different mentality to approach bo5?

I have no idea, and the Murray matchup with Fed is a real head scratcher because it's not like Murray could not last for 5 sets or had a weakness in fitness.

Maybe it's just a mental thing? Players feel jinxed and start to choke before the match even gets going?

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Fed is like 100 years old

Zverev and Tsitsipas have their history, Tsitsipas gets more attention with his recent slam victory than Zverev and etc. It's a bit interesting to entertain the idea.

 

[Noletheking]

I have no idea, and the Murray matchup with Fed is a real head scratcher because it's not like Murray could not last for 5 sets or had a weakness in fitness.

Maybe it's just a mental thing? Players feel jinxed and start to choke before the match even gets going?

It depends on lots of factors like i mentioned in previous post.

 

[True Fanerer]

Zverev was in mental lockdown the first two sets. He finally snapped out of it in the 3rd set, but the hole had been dug.

I didn't even see the first two sets. But, of course a score like that is alarming, so I started reading the thread and listening to the commies while watching the 3rd set. It became obvious to me that he wasn't suffering from normal jitters. It was a double dose due to everything leading up to the match. The whole tennis world has been looking at him through a microscope for a while and now he sees Tsits beating Fed in a major. It was too much.

 

[veroniquem]

But can you explain his performance in the first two sets tonight? I don't dislike this kid, not by a long shot, and I hoped he would do well. I certainly like him a lot better than the big Canadian lunk. But if he's good in Bo3, how can he be that bad in the first two sets after an extra day's rest?

My interpretation is panic, panic meltdown. Nothing to do with technique. That’s why I suggested a shrink in my comment. He may have lost the 1st sets anyway. Who knows. But not on that score for sure. He couldn’t even hit a serve in. As someone who suffered from extreme stage fright in my life, I can totally relate. Fear. A powerful emotion that can cause you to freeze. There are ways to deal with it but he can only find them if he acknowledges he has a problem and doesn’t go into denial or blame it on other stuff instead.

 

[Gary Duane]

My interpretation is panic, panic meltdown. Nothing to do with technique. That’s why I suggested a shrink in my comment. He may have lost the 1st sets anyway. Who knows. But not on that score for sure. He couldn’t even hit a serve in. As someone who suffered from extreme stage fright in my life, I can totally relate. Fear. A powerful emotion that can cause you to freeze. There are ways to deal with it but he can only find them if he acknowledges he has a problem and doesn’t go into denial or blame it on other stuff instead.

Stage fright in sports? Or elsewhere?

There are reasons for stage fright. As a young player, music, I was scared out of my mind when playing from memory, piano. Later I found out why, and fixed it. I've fixed it for a whole number of players. There may not always be answers, but if it is not physical, there usually are. If it's mental for Z, I'll be a bit surprised if Ivan can't find an answer. If he can't, he's the wrong coach.

 

[veroniquem]

I didn't even see the first two sets. But, of course a score like that is alarming, so I started reading the thread and listening to the commies while watching the 3rd set. It became obvious to me that he wasn't suffering from normal jitters. It was a double dose due to everything leading up to the match. The whole tennis world has been looking at him through a microscope for a while and now he sees Tsits beating Fed in a major. It was too much.

On a lighter note, let’s not forget Fed is 37. It is possible Z would have beaten Fed too. It is not a given Tsitsi would have beaten Raonic. Everybody is getting a bit ahead of themselves about Tsitsi. Great win and he matches well with Fed but let’s see what happens next round before anointing him next GOAT. Let’s not forget that Z and Tsitsi are not that far apart in age but Z has won 10 titles, Tsitsi 1.

 

[veroniquem]

Stage fright in sports? Or elsewhere?

There are reasons for stage fright. As a young player, music, I was scared out of my mind when playing from memory, piano. Later I found out why, and fixed it. I've fixed it for a whole number of players. There may not always be answers, but if it is not physical, there usually are. If it's mental for Z, I'll be a bit surprised if Ivan can't find an answer. If he can't, he's the wrong coach.

Sometimes, coach is not enough though. That’s why sport psychologist is a job

 

[Gary Duane]

Sometimes, coach is not enough though. That’s why sport psychologist is a job

I've never been good enough in any sport to need help winning, because it didn't matter if I won or lost.

But in music "winning" - meaning not chocking or falling apart in performance - means finding out how to cope when things go wrong, and they always do. Basically in my field you teach people how to pretend like they are in complete control even when things go wrong. The idea is that your bad day has to be better than other people's good days. It may be the musical or artistic equivalent of "winning ugly".

 

[veroniquem]

I've never been good enough in any sport to need help winning, because it didn't matter if I won or lost.

But in music "winning" - meaning not chocking or falling apart in performance - means finding out how to cope when things go wrong, and they always do. Basically in my field you teach people how to pretend like they are in complete control even when things go wrong. The idea is that your bad day has to be better than other people's good days. It may be the musical or artistic equivalent of "winning ugly".

I know! I’ve taken piano exams as a kid and I felt the pressure of being a good example due to my mother being a piano teacher. I was terrified out of my wits. My hands were shaking ( and sweating) so much, they kept slipping off the keys I ended up switching to singing

 

[Gary Duane]

I know! I’ve taken piano exams as a kid and I felt the pressure of being a good example due to my mother being a piano teacher. I was terrified out of my wits. My hands were shaking ( and sweating) so much, they kept slipping off the keys I ended up switching to singing

I played every kind of music you can think of and became a top sightreader by around age 13 or so. I could pick up anything and learn it in almost zero time, and perform it under pressure. I just never worried about it. For the same reason I was absolutely rock solid in any kind of ensemble. I started in what you would call "classical", but the same thing happened later in all kinds of music.

My weakness was training. I don't have good visual recall, so I need a careful plan - which means knowing the chord structure, having an outline in my mind. But I didn't know other players have this. It meant that when playing from memory I was terrified of having a lapse, with the result of throwing up and even migraines. Today I know exactly how to teach players how to be rock solid. The idea is that you should be able to start at any spot, from memory, and do it even if you have a gun to your head. The trick is breaking things down into short sections, being able to restart anywhere, and knowing how to fake through if something goes wrong.

This appears in tennis to be "having a short memory". It's the ability to let something go that just went wrong and focus on the next moment. It's a different way of thinking, and most people have to learn it.

 

[veroniquem]

I agree but I think that Z’s meltdowns in slam are on a different level than just getting rattled and not letting go after a bad point.

 

[mike danny]

The pressure of expectations at a Major though ?

90% of players his age had performed well in majors, despite having the same expectations. It's time to stop giving Zverev a pass.

 

[rushhr]

in light of this match, there's a chance that zverev will retire before fed

 

[mike danny]

Masters are not glorified exos
He’s better in best of 3 format, a bit reminiscent of Davydenko.

Davydenko's 2006 slam results was better than Zverev's entire slam career so far.

 

[heninfan99]

It's Raonic's time.

Everything is in place. The final elements: the backhand and the fierceness.

 

[Marius_Hancu]

 

[Djokovic2011]

Bloody hell, what on earth happened in the first two sets?!

 

[maximus]

Zverev should start strengthening his mental resolve. He should be able to control his temper and be calm during games. Hoping that he could win at least 2 slams.

Raonic is surprisingly playing good tennis.

 

[Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil]

@Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

 

[prairiegirl]

Good for Raonic and Canadian tennis!

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

OK. On a lighter note, I'll let everyone laugh at me. I've been dead tired, fell asleep, wake up to see Nadal with his right knee wrapped. WTF? Again? And staying way back, trying to win set 2 after losing the 1st. He's playing Karen, a boy named Sue. So I start watching. Maybe it's going to happen two nights in a row? Then I start thinking, wait a minute, Karen got eliminated? Then I start to wake up and realize that I fell asleep watching the AO on TC, but it stayed there when coverage switched to ESPN. Then I realize that ESPN is advertising Cheetah Club for Men, which is a REALLY sleazy place close to me that is open almost 24/7 and is a strip club. I started to wonder what planet I'm on.

so... how was the club ?

 

[prairiegirl]

I'm really confused. Is Nadal having another knee episode?

 

[Gary Duane]

so... how was the club ?

I can honestly say that strip clubs are not and never were "my kind of thing". But Google Cheetah Gentlemen's Club - Pompano Beach is you want a laugh. I thought it was a pretty weird thing for ESPN to advertise.

 

[alexio]

I have no idea, and the Murray matchup with Fed is a real head scratcher because it's not like Murray could not last for 5 sets or had a weakness in fitness.

Maybe it's just a mental thing? Players feel jinxed and start to choke before the match even gets going?

very strange hearing it from you that you still didn't get it such a simple fact

 

[alexio]

I'm really confused. Is Nadal having another knee episode?

where?