2019 NextGen ATP Finals General Discussion: Stronger, Betterer, Faster

Who wins?

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
six18.png

six19.png

Featuring wearable technology that you the fan won't be able to see and the ATP won't provide promo photos.:unsure:

The groups:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190712639728603136

Photos from the private and now secret draw party:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190716001987510272
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190705193270284288

Italians now have a favorite for years to come in Milan:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190715067655950337

Big Foe:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190710391615172609

The best quality draw perhaps everer in Milan.
Briefly:
Fokina - Clay court drop shot and lob Demon who schooled Monfils in Estoril, Wimby Junior champ, Won hard court Challenger this Fall and deep in a few others
Sinner - future Italian Goat, nearly beat Monfils twice this Fall (The Guru has been generous)
Ruud - was around 54% points won on clay until overplayed clay in July by starting off with challenger 2nd week of Wimbledon
Ymer - the least known and a pleasant surprise. Loves the spotlight, but very undernourished defensive player. Amazingly won 4 challengers this year which is why he made it.:) A player I've waited to see develop and was a big surprise at RG making the 2nd round where he took Zverev to a 3rd set breaker, but lost.
The above four are big, big favorites of mine and well worth watching.

Humbert made deep run at Wimbledon and has a fine fast court game which will work well enough in Milan
Tiafoe is well known, but a disappointing year
Ditto De Minaur except great finish to year and who is easily the favorite
Kecmanovic - US trained Serbian, strong legs, in the top 50, age 20 so perhaps the 3rd best near prospect on paper
 
Last edited:
Meles said:
six18.png

six19.png

Featuring wearable technology that you the fan won't be able to see and the ATP won't provide promo photos.:unsure:

The groups:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190712639728603136

Photos from the private and now secret draw party:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190716001987510272
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190705193270284288

Italians now have a favorite for years to come in Milan:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190715067655950337

Big Foe:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190710391615172609

The best quality draw perhaps everer in Milan.
Briefly:
Fokina - Clay court drop shot and lob Demon who schooled Monfils in Estoril, Wimby Junior champ, Won hard court Challenger this Fall and deep in a few others
Sinner - future Italian Goat, nearly beat Monfils twice this Fall (The Guru has been generous)
Ruud - was around 54% points won on clay until overplayed clay in July by starting off with challenger 2nd week of Wimbledon
Ymer - the least known and a pleasant surprise. Loves the spotlight, but very undernourished defensive player. Amazingly won 4 challengers this year which is why he made it.:) A player I've waited to see develop and was a big surprise at RG making the 2nd round where he took Zverev to a 3rd set breaker, but lost.
The above four are big, big favorites of mine and well worth watching.

Humbert made deep run at Wimbledon and has a fine fast court game which will work well enough in Milan
Tiafoe is well known, but a disappointing year
Ditto De Minaur except great finish to year and who is easily the favorite
Kecmanovic - US trained Croatian, strong legs, in the top 50, age 20 so perhaps the 3rd best near prospect on paper
Click to expand...
I’m not buying 2019 as “a disappointing year” for de Minaur-ity. Three titles and a Basel 500 final got him enough points to crack top 18 in a truncated year (missed 7 weeks) due to injury.

Other than that, nice synopsis.

Ymer has a charming smile. Hope he gets to flash it some.

AdM is an easy pick in the top half and Sinner is my pick in a mild upset from the bottom half.
 
stringertom said:
I’m not buying 2019 as “a disappointing year” for de Minaur-ity. Three titles and a Basel 500 final got him enough points to crack top 18 in a truncated year (missed 7 weeks) due to injury.

Other than that, nice synopsis.

Ymer has a charming smile. Hope he gets to flash it some.

AdM is an easy pick in the top half and Sinner is my pick in a mild upset from the bottom half.
Click to expand...
Just trying to spit it out quickly and yes on the Demon, he got dittoed in the OP and I left it because a large part of his year was very, very disappointing due to groin/hip injury and I still find his play erratic even now. So those achievements you note are all the more impressive with the disappointment of much of the year being lost from injury.

My Demon credentials sir;):
 
stringertom said:
....
AdM is an easy pick in the top half and Sinner is my pick in a mild upset from the bottom half.
Click to expand...
I'm looking forward to four interesting fast paces matches for each of the first three days. One wonders if Shapo regrets dropping Milan given the walkover with Nadal.:unsure:

Good picks. Demon is clear favorite and Ruud probably in last place. I remember how poorish Fritz and Hurkacz looked last year and they've had banner years in 2019. Jamie Munar has stalled in 2019, but never really expected great things from him. Sinner is just a huge change from the Italian wildcards from the play in tournament, so Milan will have him through 2021 (contract up). Would be hilarious if he qualified for both Milan and Turin in 2021 (World Tour Finals) which are 90 minutes apart. The one player who might go for both titles in the same year.

The Land of Sinner, amazing he dropping skiing for tennis.o_O
 
Meles said:
I'm looking forward to four interesting fast paces matches for each of the first three days. One wonders if Shapo regrets dropping Milan given the walkover with Nadal.:unsure:

Good picks. Demon is clear favorite and Ruud probably in last place. I remember how poorish Fritz and Hurkacz looked last year and they've had banner years in 2019. Jamie Munar has stalled in 2019, but never really expected great things from him. Sinner is just a huge change from the Italian wildcards from the play in tournament, so Milan will have him through 2021 (contract up). Would be hilarious if he qualified for both Milan and Turin in 2021 (World Tour Finals) which are 90 minutes apart. The one player who might go for both titles in the same year.

The Land of Sinner, amazing he dropping skiing for tennis.o_O
Click to expand...
The Dolomites are my favorite section of The Alps...so rugged yet giving way to beautiful valleys and pristine lakes.
 
stringertom said:
The Dolomites are my favorite section of The Alps...so rugged yet giving way to beautiful valleys and pristine lakes.
Click to expand...
I've been checking out some videos made with new HLG HDR equipment (upcoming broadcast standard in many parts of world as well like at Wimbledon). Some of the best ones are from Italy and well its just stunning, so when I saw Sinner was from Italy right on border with Austria tried to find videos on the area. That was the best one.
 
Meles said:
six18.png

six19.png

Featuring wearable technology that you the fan won't be able to see and the ATP won't provide promo photos.:unsure:

The groups:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190712639728603136

Photos from the private and now secret draw party:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190716001987510272
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190705193270284288

Italians now have a favorite for years to come in Milan:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190715067655950337

Big Foe:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1190710391615172609

The best quality draw perhaps everer in Milan.
Briefly:
Fokina - Clay court drop shot and lob Demon who schooled Monfils in Estoril, Wimby Junior champ, Won hard court Challenger this Fall and deep in a few others
Sinner - future Italian Goat, nearly beat Monfils twice this Fall (The Guru has been generous)
Ruud - was around 54% points won on clay until overplayed clay in July by starting off with challenger 2nd week of Wimbledon
Ymer - the least known and a pleasant surprise. Loves the spotlight, but very undernourished defensive player. Amazingly won 4 challengers this year which is why he made it.:) A player I've waited to see develop and was a big surprise at RG making the 2nd round where he took Zverev to a 3rd set breaker, but lost.
The above four are big, big favorites of mine and well worth watching.

Humbert made deep run at Wimbledon and has a fine fast court game which will work well enough in Milan
Tiafoe is well known, but a disappointing year
Ditto De Minaur except great finish to year and who is easily the favorite
Kecmanovic - US trained Croatian, strong legs, in the top 50, age 20 so perhaps the 3rd best near prospect on paper
Click to expand...
Is federer participating?
He's a spring chicken
 
HetTheGreaterer said:
Is federer participating?
He's a spring chicken
Click to expand...
He already is Moral victor of Milan 2019 by beating Tsitsipas and De Minaur in Basel.;)

Here is your schedule and why not watch Het as nothing else going on? I'll be watching all, but for the more skeptical I'd advise Tiafoe v Sinner:
TUE, 05 NOV 2019
AFTERNOON SESSION
1ST MATCH A / 02:00 PM
RUUD VS KECMANOVIC
1ST MATCH A / 04:00 PM
DE MINAUR VS DAVIDOVICH FOKINA
EVENING SESSION
1ST MATCH B / 07:30 PM
HUMBERT VS YMER
1ST MATCH B / 09:30 PM
TIAFOE VS SINNER

Tennis TV has this. And Amazon Prime I think worldwide. These players generally show up and play their hearts out for the 1.4 million dollar purse.
UNDEFEATED CHAMPION $429,000
WINNER $250,000
FINALIST $140,000
SEMI-FINALIST $63,000
ROUND ROBIN WIN $33,000
PARTICIPATION FEE $56,000
ALTERNATE FEE $16,000
UNDEFEATED BONUS $24,000
TOTAL $1,400,000

$33,000 for winning one match is not too shabby. Winner of event gets $429,000 undefeated, over $400,000 otherwise.

Prize money for winner about like an ATP 500 so plenty of motivation at this event, something the players have been looking forward to all year. Sinner for his career has won $275,000. Could almost double that with just an undefeated run to SF birth.o_O
 
Meles said:
He already is Moral victor of Milan 2019 by beating Tsitsipas and De Minaur in Basel.;)

Here is your schedule and why not watch Het as nothing else going on? I'll be watching all, but for the more skeptical I'd advise Tiafoe v Sinner:
TUE, 05 NOV 2019
AFTERNOON SESSION
1ST MATCH A / 02:00 PM
RUUD VS KECMANOVIC
1ST MATCH A / 04:00 PM
DE MINAUR VS DAVIDOVICH FOKINA
EVENING SESSION
1ST MATCH B / 07:30 PM
HUMBERT VS YMER
1ST MATCH B / 09:30 PM
TIAFOE VS SINNER

Tennis TV has this. And Amazon Prime I think worldwide. These players generally show up and play their hearts out for the 1.4 million dollar purse.
UNDEFEATED CHAMPION $429,000
WINNER $250,000
FINALIST $140,000
SEMI-FINALIST $63,000
ROUND ROBIN WIN $33,000
PARTICIPATION FEE $56,000
ALTERNATE FEE $16,000
UNDEFEATED BONUS $24,000
TOTAL $1,400,000

$33,000 for winning one match is not too shabby. Winner of event gets $429,000 undefeated, over $400,000 otherwise.

Prize money for winner about like an ATP 500 so plenty of motivation at this event, something the players have been looking forward to all year. Sinner for his career has won $275,000. Could almost double that with just an undefeated run to SF birth.o_O
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for sharing the schedule, I'll adjust it to Indian time now.
And yeah, I'd be watching it for sure Meles (how strange would it be if it'd be your real name, so confusing with mallet ;))
Though I would love it more if it had a regular BO3 format, this scoring system does not make too much sense to me.
 
stringertom said:
AdM is an easy pick in the top half and Sinner is my pick in a mild upset from the bottom half.
Click to expand...
It's hard not to agree with this. Apart from Tiafoe, De Minaur is pretty far ahead of the rest of the group, even if they can muster up some solid play.

Meles said:
The Land of Sinner, amazing he dropping skiing for tennis.o_O
Click to expand...
That area (The Dolomites, so I'm picking from South Tyrol, Trentino, and Belluno (so I can add Cortina d'Ampezzo)) has produced quite a few skiing legends : Manuela and Manfred Mölgg, Peter Fill, Kristian Ghedina, Christof Innerfhofer, Izolde Kostner... the list goes on and on, and those are just the alpine skiers!

Maybe Sinner just wanted to stand out by playing tennis.
 
HetTheGreaterer said:
Thank you very much for sharing the schedule, I'll adjust it to Indian time now.
And yeah, I'd be watching it for sure Meles (how strange would it be if it'd be your real name, so confusing with mallet ;))
Though I would love it more if it had a regular BO3 format, this scoring system does not make too much sense to me.
Click to expand...
vive le beau jeu ! said:
rooting for ymer and sinner... but i guess de minaur is the big favorite here.

those stupid rules, though...... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
The rules are the best part. Just wall to wall pressure. No tanking. Its just bang, bang, bang as the sets quickly roll by.

I think for slams you'd have to go to best of 9 or something. What makes the slam format so great is that the players are going at it for two weeks straight and by the end the survivors are often in tremendous form (or wasted/exhausted:sick:). So really not much need to change things at slams (though I could see breakers at 5 all).

Vs. best of three I like the Milan 5 set format well. The stats show that best of three is just a little bit better for having the better player prevail. (And of course best of five leagues ahead of both.) So their is that cost with going to the Milan format, but the bonus is a much more high intensity format with more critical end of set moments and frankly the no ad scoring adds a lot of pressure. The only thing I don't love is the playing of lets on serve and that is the one feature I think most widely accepted on TTW.:cautious:

The scoring system is really nothing we've not seen before, you just tiebreak at 3 all or its first to 4. What is odd is you are not stopping at half a set up 3-1 instead of 6-4. Its like every set is played to 7 in best of three with tiebreakers at 6 all.

In short the wall to wall pressure is quite addicting. The no ad scoring is similar to doubles on tour except it is servers choice. You go in a hole 0-40, you have to win 4 straight points.:eek:

Its interesting to note that Shapo keeps deliberately ducking this tournament and the pressure of the format. Lots of pressure can get the cracks to show in a high risk game.:sneaky: Felix also has called in sick.;)
 
Pmasterfunk said:
It's hard not to agree with this. Apart from Tiafoe, De Minaur is pretty far ahead of the rest of the group, even if they can muster up some solid play.


That area (The Dolomites, so I'm picking from South Tyrol, Trentino, and Belluno (so I can add Cortina d'Ampezzo)) has produced quite a few skiing legends : Manuela and Manfred Mölgg, Peter Fill, Kristian Ghedina, Christof Innerfhofer, Izolde Kostner... the list goes on and on, and those are just the alpine skiers!

Maybe Sinner just wanted to stand out by playing tennis.
Click to expand...
Wow what great background. I tried to find some detail on the Sinner skiing, but to no avail. He covers his motivations in a rather dry video. In short he was playing tennis no more than a few times a week and did not play at all at age 7. He came back to tennis after that year and really enjoyed it. The final split with skiing was not until Piatti and company invited him to their tennis center and got quite excited about his talent. Sinner quite wisely got on the tennis train full time at that point.;)
 
Baseline_Bungle said:
After facing a familiar (Tia)foe, the Sinner will meet his (red)Ymer. A Ruud encounter in the semis will set the stage for a hellish finale:

The Sinner vs. The Demon...

Should be a Fokin blast!
Click to expand...
Agree to the extent that Sinner has made this a very interesting event and should be a vast improvement over the Italian play in tournament winner (they're still doing that event and the winner is the alternate for Sinner and next year they'll have two Italians guaranteedo_O.) I'm fine with Felix, Shapo, and Tsits missing because the three other players are very, very interesting. Humbert I'm a bit meh on, but he's young so we see what happens when they mix it up.

I'm also glad of Sinner because he'll be sure to play this in 2020 and 2021 since its in his home country. Did I say Shapo is just a joke for blowing up his schedule each year and skipping Milan?:sneaky:
 
Meles said:
Sinner quite wisely got on the tennis train full time at that point.;)
Click to expand...
If I may take your comment more seriously than it should, I honestly wonder which sport provides better long-term conditions.
  • I suspect wear and tear on the body is worse with tennis, but serious life-threatening injuries are a real risk in skiing.
  • The ski season is shorter, the athletes travel and train with their national teams, so mentally skiing wears less on the mind.
  • From what I understand, the nightlife in skiing is quite, *ahem*, exciting.
  • Financially, tennis offers much better prize money, but some skiers have sponsorship deals similar to the top tennis pros, so that may be a moot point. "I only made 46 million this year, while Rogi made 48 waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"
  • Pro skiers have issues finding pants that fit properly, so a point for tennis.
  • However, post-career acting goes to skiing:
 
Gotta say in the Djokovic era it looks like they crushed the PR budget for Milan; perhaps things will show up tomorrow.:sick:
 
Last edited:
toby55555 said:
I doubt the general sports watching public could put a face to more than two of these players.
Click to expand...
The highest ranked group by far this year, but Ymer and Fokina have particularly built their resume with recent challenger trophies; six between them. Ruud has not been seen much on hard courts as well.

I just built my new hard court rankings (average of Recent Elo ranking and Hard Court points won ranking for 2019):
Name Hard Rank Average Elo Rank Points Rank
Rafael Nadal 1 2 1 2
Novak Djokovic 2 2 2 1
Roger Federer 3 3 3 3
Daniil Medvedev 4 4 4 4
Denis Shapovalov 5 10 9 11
Kevin Anderson 6 11 8 14
Alexander Zverev 7 12 10 13
Alex De Minaur 8 12 17 6
Dominic Thiem 9 12 5 19
Kei Nishikori 10 13 15 10
Stefanos Tsitsipas 11 13 6 20
Jo Wilfried Tsonga 12 14 13 15
Gael Monfils 13 14 21 7
Andrey Rublev 14 15 12 18
Diego Sebastian Schwartzman 15 16 19 12
Roberto Bautista Agut 16 16 22 9
Stan Wawrinka 17 17 11 22
Pablo Carreno Busta 18 17 16 17
Grigor Dimitrov 19 17 18 16
Milos Raonic 20 17 26 8
Matteo Berrettini 21 21 7 35
John Isner 22 22 23 21
David Goffin 23 23 14 31
Filip Krajinovic 24 26 27 25
Jan Lennard Struff 25 27 30 24
Nick Kyrgios 26 30 20 39
Andy Murray 27 31 32 29
Adrian Mannarino 28 34 34 33
Karen Khachanov 29 36 25 46
Hubert Hurkacz 30 37 38 36
Marin Cilic 31 38 28 47
Reilly Opelka 32 40 36 44
Tomas Berdych 33 40 52 28
Sam Querrey 34 42 29 54
Felix Auger Aliassime 35 43 37 48
Fernando Verdasco 36 43 55 30
Jeremy Chardy 37 43 31 55
Egor Gerasimov 38 44 54 34
Nikoloz Basilashvili 39 46 39 52
Miomir Kecmanovic 40 48 64 32
John Millman 41 49 47 50
Borna Coric 42 50 50 49
Daniel Evans 43 51 58 43
Jordan Thompson 44 51 59 42
Radu Albot 45 53 49 56
Fabio Fognini 46 54 24 84
Lucas Pouille 47 55 35 75
Aljaz Bedene 48 56 43 68
Ugo Humbert 49 56 66 45
Richard Gasquet 50 56 45 67
Taylor Harry Fritz 51 58 42 74
Yoshihito Nishioka 52 59 44 73
Steve Johnson 53 60 62 58
Frances Tiafoe 54 61 57 64
Guido Pella 55 61 41 81
Gilles Simon 56 61 63 59
Philipp Kohlschreiber 57 61 71 51
Jannik Sinner 58 64 89 38
Andreas Seppi 59 66 68 63
Christian Garin 60 67 46 88
Cameron Norrie 61 68 75 61
Marton Fucsovics 62 69 77 60
Mikhail Kukushkin 63 69 51 87
Kyle Edmund 64 69 56 82
Dominik Koepfer 65 72 72 71
Vasek Pospisil 66 73 80 65
Hyeon Chung 67 73 48 98
Benoit Paire 68 74 53 94
Joao Sousa 69 77 67 86
Roberto Carballes Baena 70 82 73 90
Leonardo Mayer 71 82 78 85
Alexei Popyrin 72 86 76 95
Gregoire Barrere 73 88 86 89
Ricardas Berankis 74 95 91 99

Only five players in my top 74 on hard courts (bolded above and Popyrin, a sixth, playing challenger this week.) Ymer and Fokina simply don't have enough points on hard courts at ATP level to make rankings. Ruud 65 for Recent Elo, but only 135 on points won.
 
The ATP should be shot for making these courts perhaps even faster than Paris. :mad: No breaks of serve and Ruud v Kecmanovic, not even sure there has been a break point.:sneaky:

LOL, Kecmanovic with 42 second hold. Ruud nudged out in first two breakers and impressive serving Ruud in the first two sets, now 2 all in 3rd set.
 
Best point was the last; Kecmanovic with great volley to finally take the point.

Ruud has an infamously poor return so hopefully my eyes are lying about the speed. Kecmanovic 1/1 on break points, Ruud 0 break points.:unsure:

Demon v Fokina:love: next.
 
Kecmanovic asked about court speed after match and basically says Milan is middle of the pack and definitely not as fast as some events.
 
Perusing Recent Elo coming into Milan 2017:
Zverev 8 (did not play)
Rublev 32
Chung 36 (both were finalists)
Shapo 39
Donaldson 50
Coric 51
Khachanov 62
Mad Lad 73
Italian wild card infinity

A betterer group in 2017, but 2019 with Shapo and FAA in field would have been decisively better with two near top ten players plus FAA on par with Shapo 2017.

2018?
Tsitsipas 14
Shapo 30 (ducked Milan)
De Minaur 39
Fritz 51
Tiafoe 53
Rublev 86
Hurkacz 100+
Italian WC infinity

With Shapo in place 2018 better than 2017. 2019 with Shapo and FAA would have been amazing field.

2019 as it stands is still exciting with Sinner as the Italian wildcard leagues ahead of his counterparts from 2017 and 2018.:p

Demon v Fokina have started.
 
Fokina blows deciding point for the break. Demon 3-1. Fokina has the power from both sides to hit the ball by the Speed Demon with ease.:love:
 
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