2019 Rolex Paris Masters - ATP Masters 1000 - General Discussion

Who gets the title?


  • Total voters
    69
  • Poll closed .

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Now now, let's not disparage him. He has actually won 3 slams by beating the best players for them and he hasn't been at his best since 2018.

Stan today is a shadow of 2014-2016 Stan.

Injured Rafa and 2016 he played Djokovic who shouldn't even have been in the final. He got several Walk overs. He was a mess and would have lost to anyone decent mlst probably. 2015 win was good, but a fluke.

Wawrinka is the biggest tennis mystery.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Injured Rafa and 2016 he played Djokovic who shouldn't even have been in the final. He got several Walk overs. He was a mess and even playing with physical pain. 2015 win was good, but a fluke.
At 2014 AO he defeated the AO GOAT, Djokovic. Rafa was injured, yes, but his win over Djokovic in the QF already makes him the deserving winner of that event.

FO 2015 was a great win, as you said.

USO 2016 may have been one of his easier wins with a below par Djokovic in the final, but Djokovic has also won slams with below par opponents in them, so Stan deserves one himself.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Rafa will make the semis easily. He has a backhand-less Tsonga next who has just played a marathon against Struff.
You really think Tsonga can't beat him? Tsonga played a few marathons in Shanghai 2015 but still beat Nadal after that. (and Nadal was actually playing well in this tournament, not his usual 2015 level)
Yes, Tsonga is a declined player, but I don't know what a player needs to be in order not to have a chance against Nadal on these courts.
 

Roddick85

Hall of Fame
I'm disappointed to see Wawrinka wasn't able to at least push this into a 3rd set. He was playing better in the 2nd but he basically gave up at 4-4 in the 2nd, bad finish.
Even though he's had a better year in 2019 compared to 2018, I do wonder where does he go from there? He hasn't won a single title since 2017.
 

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
A total mug who beat Djokovic a few times in slams, including slam finals.

It's called MATCHUP issues. Literally the only player in the universe who could trouble PRIME Novak on Hards is Peak Wawrinka.
No one else can beat Djokovic on hards if the Serb is playing his best.
Wawrinka benefits against Novak by the dynamics of their matchup.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
You really think Tsonga can't beat him? Tsonga played a few marathons in Shanghai 2015 but still beat Nadal after that. (and Nadal was actually playing well in this tournament, not his usual 2015 level)
Yes, Tsonga is a declined player, but I don't know what a player needs to be in order not to have a chance against Nadal on these courts.
I don't want Nadal to lose. I am completely neutral. This isn't a slam.

Tsonga today is worse than 2015 Tsonga by some margin. Even on this surface, all it takes is a few UE from Jo and Rafa will eat him alive.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I'm disappointed to see Wawrinka wasn't able to at least push this into a 3rd set. He was playing better in the 2nd but he basically gave up at 4-4 in the 2nd, bad finish.
Even though he's had a better year in 2019 compared to 2018, I do wonder where does he go from there? He hasn't won a single title since 2017.
I think one more deep slam run beyond the QF is in the cards fro him.

And even a title along the way. There is always Geneva.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
It's called MATCHUP issues. Literally the only player in the universe who could trouble PRIME Novak on Hards is Peak Wawrinka.
No one else can beat Djokovic on hards if the Serb is playing his best.
Wawrinka benefits against Novak by the dynamics of their matchup.
A prime Federer and Nadal can challenge as well. Djokovic would certainly have trouble with say AO 2007 Federer or AO 2009 Nadal or something like that.
 

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
Might be reaching here but defo think there's something weird in the air. Don't know about Paris but here a lot of people (myself included) have been getting sick the last week or so. Random throat inflammation, fatigue, feeling of extreme dehydration even after having couple of cups of water (again related to throat lining). Might have breathed in some weird chemical.

Another one of my friends in Paris is severely ill as well. She says that lots of people have flu like symptoms - some mild, some severe.
Dehydration and extreme fatigue are tell tale signs.
One hopes this is NOT a bug or something which might lead to bigger issues in France.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
It's called MATCHUP issues. Literally the only player in the universe who could trouble PRIME Novak on Hards is Peak Wawrinka.
No one else can beat Djokovic on hards if the Serb is playing his best.
Wawrinka benefits against Novak by the dynamics of their matchup.
Hmmm, I was thinking that the guy with 11 HC slams may have a chance too, but what do I know?
 

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
A prime Federer and Nadal can challenge as well. Djokovic would certainly have trouble with say AO 2007 Federer or AO 2009 Nadal or something like that.
Hmm. I doubt that.
Djokovic is the AO GOAT. Djokovic at his best there beats Fed and Nadal - any version - IMO.
 

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
Hmmm, I was thinking that the guy with 11 HC slams may have a chance too, but what do I know?
Good point. But I still feel Novak is better at AO than Fed is at AO.
And I know Fed's not done well recently at the USOpen and lost a few to Novak there, but peak Fed IMO is better at UsOpen than Peak Novak.
So peak Fed and peak Novak would split HC slams.
Peak Nadal would probably win nothing against peak Novak on HC.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
I think it shows the points as they progress through the rounds of the Bercy. So, Minotaur had a chance, if he won it.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
No, he didn't. And how on Earth was he going to win the Masters 1000? He will never win a Masters 1000, it is ridiculous to include him.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal and Tsonga will meet again at Paris master QF, exactly a decade later. :eek:

He'll 100% do better than Wawrinka and atleast show some sort of fight and will have the crowd behind is back. What Wawrinka showed today is a disgrace. Guy has no belief.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
He'll 100% do better than Wawrinka and atleast show some sort of fight and will have the crowd behind is back. What Wawrinka showed today is a disgrace. Guy has no belief.
ROFL. A disgrace was when he lost 6-3 6-0 to Djokovic in WTF 2014 or 6-4 6-1 in Cincinnati 2015. He was missing like every second shot in these matches. Today he actually fought and only played one really bad game.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Hmm. I doubt that.
Djokovic is the AO GOAT. Djokovic at his best there beats Fed and Nadal - any version - IMO.
It would still be close IMO. Djokovic is better than Nadal at AO though peak wise though. Djokovic would need 5 sets or at the very very very least 4 very tight sets to stop AO 2007 Federer/AO 2009 Nadal IMO.
 

vive le beau jeu !

Talk Tennis Guru
You really think Tsonga can't beat him? Tsonga played a few marathons in Shanghai 2015 but still beat Nadal after that. (and Nadal was actually playing well in this tournament, not his usual 2015 level)
Yes, Tsonga is a declined player, but I don't know what a player needs to be in order not to have a chance against Nadal on these courts.
may tsonga denadalize the draw and save tennis...
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Good point. But I still feel Novak is better at AO than Fed is at AO.
And I know Fed's not done well recently at the USOpen and lost a few to Novak there, but peak Fed IMO is better at UsOpen than Peak Novak.
So peak Fed and peak Novak would split HC slams.
Peak Nadal would probably win nothing against peak Novak on HC.
Based on the H2H at the USO and number of USO titles, I believe anything can happen at the USO between an in form Nadal and an in form Djokovic, meaning that some matches will be won by Nadal and others by Djokovic.

At the AO? I gotta agree with you definetely. Novak at his best is too much for both Federer and Nadal at the AO. He has proved it too many times. Defeated Federer in 2008 in 3, in 2011, when Federer was only 29, in 3. In the AO 2015 also defeated Federer in 4. At the AO 2012, the match was close, but still Djokovic proved he is too much even for an in form Nadal. At the AO 2019 he just easily defeated poor Nadal in 3.
 

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
It would still be close IMO. Djokovic is better than Nadal at AO though peak wise though. Djokovic would need 5 sets or at the very very very least 4 very tight sets to stop AO 2007 Federer/AO 2009 Nadal IMO.

Yeah. Absolutely. I'm not saying the matches would be a cakewalk. He might take 5 sets to beat peak Fed/peak Nadal at AO. But one would still think he would win.
The equation changes when you put in Wawrinka. Even though Stan won't trouble other top players, his game still works against Novak.
Even a peak Novak shifts to defensive against Stan and the Swiss can belt winners from all over. It's like Stan brings the WORST out of Novak. He controls the center of the court and runs Djokovic ragged.

So even though Novak is a far far superior player to Stan, he still feels inferior when they both play at their peaks on HC and clay.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
ROFL. A disgrace was when he lost 6-3 6-0 to Djokovic in WTF 2014 or 6-4 6-1 in Cincinnati 2015. He was missing like every second shot in these matches. Today he actually fought and only played one really bad game.

I'm talking about him today. Not what happened 5 years ago.

He didn't show anything TODAY. Was no fight at all and crumbled when it mattered. He self destructed.
 

zep

Hall of Fame
Not a very impressive performance from Nadal to be honest. Wawrinka was probably the better player until the last 3 games despite trailing in score. Nadal didn't serve well in the first set, although did much better in the second. He managed to take the few chances he had, Wawrinka couldn't.
 

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
At the USO, and as the H2H indicates, I believe anything can happen at the USO between an in form Nadal and an in form Djokovic, meaning that some matches will be won by Nadal and others by Djokovic.

At the AO? I gotta agree with you definetely. Novak at his best is too much for both Federer and Nadal at the AO. He has proved it too many times. Defeated Federer in 2008 in 3, in 2011, when Federer was only 29, in 3. In the AO 2015 also defeated Federer in 4. At the AO 2012, the match was close, but still Djokovic proved he is too much even for an in form Nadal. At the AO 2019 he just easily defeated poor Nadal in 3.

I do agree. Nadal at UsOpen has definitely shown some good tennis. IMO - the best Nadal would be with the serve of UsOpen 2010 and the ground game of UsOpen 2013. That Nadal could beat peak Novak at UsOpen.
While the Novak at 2013 UsOpen Final was not at his best, Nadal still won that match comprehensively without playing his best. Which means that a peak Novak (UsOpen 2011) vs a peak UsOpen Nadal would be very very competitive.

At AO - it's a different story. The court seems tailor-made for Novak's game and at his best, hard for anyone to beat him. It's like Nadal at RG - obviously not as dominant - but the same principle of playing with house money on the AO court.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Yeah. Absolutely. I'm not saying the matches would be a cakewalk. He might take 5 sets to beat peak Fed/peak Nadal at AO. But one would still think he would win.
The equation changes when you put in Wawrinka. Even though Stan won't trouble other top players, his game still works against Novak.
Even a peak Novak shifts to defensive against Stan and the Swiss can belt winners from all over. It's like Stan brings the WORST out of Novak. He controls the center of the court and runs Djokovic ragged.

So even though Novak is a far far superior player to Stan, he still feels inferior when they both play at their peaks on HC and clay.
2011 Djokovic was more aggressive I think he would match up better with Stan. Stan does do well in slams vs Djokovic but that times he faced Djokovic out of shape like USO 2019 and people forget this. Somebody like Federer is harder for Stan.
I think Djokovic is the best at AO overall his record shows it.
 

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
2011 Djokovic was more aggressive I think he would match up better with Stan. Stan does do well in slams vs Djokovic but that times he faced Djokovic out of shape like USO 2019 and people forget this. Somebody like Federer is harder for Stan.
I think Djokovic is the best at AO overall his record shows it.

I agree. But honestly, I've seen Stan beat Novak at times in AO, UsOpen and French Open - when no other player on the planet could have beaten Novak. Stan has handled prime Novak as well in big slam matches.
Even the RG final that Novak lost to Stan, the Serb looked far better coming into the final. But he was massively outplayed. And that year was Novak's prime.
As good as Novak was in 2011 - he failed to make the RG final. And IMO - peak Stan would beat Novak 2011 of the UsOpen.
The reason why Novak 2011 of UsOpen Final looked so great was that he was playing Nadal who was totally spooked. Nadal had lost at IW, Miami, Clay (3 matches), Wimbledon Final -- all consecutively to Novak. There was no way the Spaniard was going to challenge Novak.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Well his legs are not what they used to be to begin with.
No offense, but that comment (that Nadal is returning nearer the baseline because his legs are not the same) makes no logic. Nadal started returning near the baseline. Watch his Wimbledon 2006-2008 matches agaisnt Federer. He returned so near the baseline, if not even on the baseline itself. It is only that in recent years he got used to return far behind the baseline. After the Wimbledon 2019 SF, his coaching team told him to return nearer the baseline and he is gradually adapting to that new tactic, as we can clearly see in this tournament.
 

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
No offense, but that comment (that Nadal is returning nearer the baseline because his legs are not the same) makes no logic. Nadal started returning near the baseline. Watch his Wimbledon 2006-2008 matches agaisnt Federer. He returned so near the baseline, if not even on the baseline itself. It is only that in recent years he got used to return far behind the baseline. After the Wimbledon 2019 SF, his coaching team told him to return nearer the baseline and he is gradually adpating to that new tactic, as we can clearly see in this tournament.

Excellent post as usual. Just to add to your points: Nadal stands far back when he is NOT playing well - not because his legs have more energy. In fact on peak fitness and prime form, Nadal USUALLY stands in. See his runs in Fall 2010 and 2013 fall hardcourt seasons. Nadal's court positioning has to do with his confidence. When he is confident in his shots and timing, he can back himself to stand in and be able to time the ball with depth and pace.
When Nadal is NOT confident - he resorts to the default mode of safe play and trying to retrieve everything standing far behind. Because of his long follow-through on the forehand - that's the safest mode for him. That he does more running this way is an unfortunate consequence and leads to injuries.

Lastly, it has to do with court speed as well. When the court is low bouncing and fast as Paris, you have to stand further up. It is impossible to defend from far back. If you stand back, you need cover more court to get to the ball. Since the surface is fast, your opponent can hit the ball through the court much more easily, and you are way less likely to be able to retrieve. The whole point is to take time away from your opponent on a faster court, which is why you need to stand in and take the ball early.
 

Roddick85

Hall of Fame
I think one more deep slam run beyond the QF is in the cards fro him.

And even a title along the way. There is always Geneva.
It would be nice to see him peak at another slam. I'll guess the fan in me would like to see him regain his pre-surgery level and re-integrate the top 8 but I wonder if this will materialize.
 
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