2020 Roland Garros SF: [5]Stefanos 'The Philosopher' Tsitsipas vs [1]Novak 'The Tournament Director' Djokovic

Who makes the final


  • Total voters
    138

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Med, Tsits and Thiem have impressed against top players in Slams. Now it's Zverev's turn who has never beaten a top 10 player in a Slam.
He did push Nadal to 5 at 2017 AO, but it's one thing to do it in an early round and another to do it in a semi or final. Heck, even a QF.
 

-NN-

G.O.A.T.
But I don't get it. He lasted against Stan for over 5 hours last year. Why is he worse in that department this year?


Maybe also psychological fatigue. Maybe he went "above himself" so to speak and came crashing down and couldn't sustain his effort. I don't know.
 

EllieK

Hall of Fame
Why can't these guys improve their fitness? They're in their early 20s.
The long break didn’t help. Match fitness is not there as much. Also he played in Hamburg. He will learn from this. This kid wants it. He went toe to toe with the world #1 for 4 sets. He knows what he needs to do.
 

Krish0608

G.O.A.T.
He did push Nadal to 5 at 2017 AO, but it's one thing to do it in an early round and another to do it in a semi or final. Heck, even a QF.
Zedzilla is so overrated. There are those off days when he is in the zone. But those days are super rare. Mostly he just gets by playing horrendous tennis and gets beaten by the first decent opponent. I mean, had Tsitsipas played the final against Thiem in the USO final, he might have actually won it instead of choking like Zverev did.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Zedzilla is so overrated. There are those off days when he is in the zone. But those days are super rare. Mostly he just gets by playing horrendous tennis and gets beaten by the first decent opponent. I mean, had Tsitsipas played the final against Thiem in the USO final, he might have actually won it instead of choking like Zverev did.
Tsitsipas actually brought one of the biggest chokes in history in this USO, and that was in the third round. :-D :-D :-D :-D
 

PilotPete

Hall of Fame
The long break didn’t help. Match fitness is not there as much. Also he played in Hamburg. He will learn from this. This kid wants it. He went toe to toe with the world #1 for 4 sets. He knows what he needs to do.

Sure, but Novak had the same break in play.
 

Mkiske

Semi-Pro
I was not in a position to comment today, a lot of work and very nervous about the match and after the wasted match point. lol
Ajde Nole!
 

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
Well, looking at the overall match, it was obvious that Novak lost concentration. He was probably already mentally preparing for Sunday vs Nadal after winning set 2.
Titspad mounted some sort of a comeback. But as soon as Novak woke up, it was Good night Irene. Never in doubt.

The difference in class was obvious and Novak should have won in 3.
 

Krish0608

G.O.A.T.
If there was a foot injury, okay. But there is no excuse for cramping.
It looked like he was injured. He culn't move his legs and was in clear physical discomfort.
From Tsitsipas' presser:
Tsitsipas: "Unfortunately towards the end of the match an injury that I had during my match in Rome came back. It was difficult to close the match in a fighting way, in a fighting spirit".
 

EllieK

Hall of Fame
It looked like he was injured. He culn't move his legs and was in clear physical discomfort.
From Tsitsipas' presser:
Tsitsipas: "Unfortunately towards the end of the match an injury that I had during my match in Rome came back. It was difficult to close the match in a fighting way, in a fighting spirit".
I’m going to say the right foot. Looked like that’s what he was having trouble with.
 
D

Deleted member 21996

Guest
So, I leave midway 3rd set, home working while listening the guys at EuroSport saying that Sissy Spasipas was being dismantled by Novaxx, thinking... Ah this is done and dusted....
 

EllieK

Hall of Fame
So, I leave midway 3rd set, home working while listening the guys at EuroSport saying that Sissy Spasipas was being dismantled by Novaxx, thinking... Ah this is done and dusted....
Me too. I turned the TV off and went to work out. Came back and they were in the 5th set.
 

Pmasterfunk

Hall of Fame
(in the middle of 3rd set)


Tsitsipas:
- Oh, no, no, no! Nobody would win this match with so many breakpoints wasted!
Shr8KUN.png



Djokovic:
- Hold my beer, young guy.
aULj691.png
Wait, wasn't Tsits 0/10? So he went 4/5 after that?
 
Well, looking at the overall match, it was obvious that Novak lost concentration. He was probably already mentally preparing for Sunday vs Nadal after winning set 2.
Titspad mounted some sort of a comeback. But as soon as Novak woke up, it was Good night Irene. Never in doubt.

The difference in class was obvious and Novak should have won in 3.
Yeah I agree he was thinking about Rafa final too. Thankfully he the job done and it wasn’t a physically taxing match. He will be fine physically for Rafa in final.
 

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah I agree he was thinking about Rafa final too. Thankfully he the job done and it wasn’t a physically taxing match. He will be fine physically for Rafa in final.
Yeah. It was only 45 mins more than the Nadal match. So no problems physically.
Nadal will really need to bring it. If he plays like he did vs Sinner and Diego - it won't be pretty.
 
D

Deleted member 629564

Guest
Wait, wasn't Tsits 0/10? So he went 4/5 after that?
Indeed, Tsitsipas was 0/10. He converted his 11th, 13th, 14th and 15th break point.

Set 1 0/5
1st game: 40-0, 40-15, 40-30, A-40
7th game: A-40

Set 2 0/2

2nd game: 40-30, A-40

Set 3 2/6

2nd game: A-40
10th game: 40-30, A-40
(at this moment he was 0/10)
10th game: A-40 again
12th game: 40-30, A-40

Set 4 2/2

2nd game: 40-0
10th game: A-40

Set 5 0/0

none

4/15 in total
 
Yeah. It was only 45 mins more than the Nadal match. So no problems physically.
Nadal will really need to bring it. If he plays like he did vs Sinner and Diego - it won't be pretty.
I hope it’s a classic match. I think we all wanted this final with how much is at stake. This rivalry has been awesome over the years. I hope another epic is on the cards.
 

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
I hope it’s a classic match. I think we all wanted this final with how much is at stake. This rivalry has been awesome over the years. I hope another epic is on the cards.
I don't know if we will have a classic. I haven't been happy with Nadal's tennis for almost a couple of years now.
RG 2019 he won because Novak/Thiem killed each other. Against Medvedev he choked badly and barely won in 5th set because of experience.
AO 2020 he was thrashed by Thiem. Then he didn't even go to the UsOpen and in the clay court his tennis has been fairly ordinary.
So for him the F.O 2020 is vital as he is clearly declining and might not have much left.

Actually I think Novak needs to watch out in 2021 as well. The youngsters are coming. Zverev will surely fix his serve. Then there is Thiem obviously. And you can imagine next time Titspas will also come hard at Novak.
So for Novak F.O 2020 will be important for #18 and getting closer to Fedal.
 
I don't know if we will have a classic. I haven't been happy with Nadal's tennis for almost a couple of years now.
RG 2019 he won because Novak/Thiem killed each other. Against Medvedev he choked badly and barely won in 5th set because of experience.
AO 2020 he was thrashed by Thiem. Then he didn't even go to the UsOpen and in the clay court his tennis has been fairly ordinary.
So for him the F.O 2020 is vital as he is clearly declining and might not have much left.

Actually I think Novak needs to watch out in 2021 as well. The youngsters are coming. Zverev will surely fix his serve. Then there is Thiem obviously. And you can imagine next time Titspas will also come hard at Novak.
So for Novak F.O 2020 will be important for #18 and getting closer to Fedal.
Yes I agree the gap is closing. That’s why this slam is huge and 2021 is a huge year for the big3, especially nadal and Djokovic. The window is slowing closing and it’s only gonna get tougher but it’s remarkable they are still the best of the best after all these years.
 

roysid

Legend
if you want to sum up the match in one line, here it goes..

A tale of two BreakPoint conversions..

Till 3rd set 4-5, Tispitas was 0-11 in BP conversions and Djoker 4-5 or something.

Once Tispitas got that break in 12th chance, the table turned. From then on, he saved 12/13 BP while converted 4 BP in probably 5/6 chances. Result two sets.
Gameplay was more or less same. The breakpoints streched the match to 5th set, by that time tispitas was drained out
 

daphne

Hall of Fame
Did it strike you as a particularly taxing match though? I mean this was nothing like Thiem-Schwartzman.
“I’m not feeling exhausted physically so much after tonight's match, obviously almost four hours. It was a great battle,” Djokovic said. “But I feel fine. I think a day-and-a-half will be plenty of time for me to recover. I'm really looking forward to a great battle with Rafa.”
 

yokied

Hall of Fame
Strange mental weakness from Gioco serving it out in the 3rd. Then again in the 4th, serving at 4-5: DF, brilliant, unreturned, brilliant then - from 40:15 - Tsits dropper winner, tired BH error on 3rd ball into net - at deuce - tired BH error wide on 3rd ball - set point Tsits - bailout dropper fail.

And how good were the time violation warnings given to Gioco and the Nadal about three points before the umps thought the matches were going to end? "Great timing man..." - munches date - "...giving me a warning. Awesome. Awesome refereeing man." Djokodal sure give me plenty of time to type up my thoughts.

Tsits is such an enigma. I maintain that he's just not that good. He plays quite dumb for long periods in big matches Vs the guys he is supposed to see as his rivals and have plan(s) for. He's not as dumb as Tim, but that's not saying much. For a guy with a lot of options, Tsits doesn't use them that well. And properly gassed - red-faced, cramping and limping - in the 5th.

This speaks to a lack of clarity in the game plan and dysfunctional coaching, bringing me to the other thing I really don't like: the Tomic vibes I'm getting with the Dad. That is not going to end well, either with the coaching violations or the actual coaching. Also, I have nothing but lols for Mouratoglu.


Items and patterns of interest:

0. Tsits' court position. A skilful, attacking OHBH player, a good mover with great all-court skills but he LIVES in such a poor, deep court position. It's especially puzzling in these conditions where the ball is not getting past him and is going to be there in a decent hitting zone, especially against players like Novak who aren't going to hit him off the court. He only started playing closer to the baseline and moving his bodyweight into the shots in the last game of the 3rd. Way too late.

1. Gioco doesn't handle a OHBH moon ball CC from Tsits as well he does the similar ball from Nadal's FH. It's probably because the shot itself is much less consistent than Rafa's FH so hard to predict, in addition to the read difficulty Gioco has with the OHBH in general. If Tsits' court position was more aggressive, he could've used this pattern a lot more to set up the run-around FH, which was winning when he executed it properly.

2. Tsits' defensive FH DTL, also a bit moonbally, really jammed Gioco back into the BH corner and reset the points beautifully, even if it did deprive him of a bit of time. More broadly, Tsits did a good job depriving Gioco of FHs from open court/OTR etc.

3. Tsits' slightly short play (usually slice BH) into Gioco's middle-BH side to open up for Tsits' DTL BH into Gioco's FH. This is the Stan-Dom technique and was not used nearly enough. I think mostly because Tsits is not that confident in the DTL BH. Only started pulling the trigger on it at 6-5 in the 3rd. Wayyy too late for such a proven strategy, even if you only use it enough to make him fear it.

4. When Tsits is really unloading on the groundstrokes, especially the FH, he gets into position earlier, sets much more side on and holds the stroke a little before using a much more rotation and higher swing speed. It has the advantage of being much harder to read, but it's a bit more error-prone. Also the same or greater increase in power could come from a better leg drive with core rotation into the shots, especially on clay when the feet have more time to prepare.

5. Tsits serve. It was redlining. It could improve to technique-wise but I see that only really improving how his feet are positioned to accept the return rather than in the potency of the serve.
 

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
Strange mental weakness from Gioco serving it out in the 3rd. Then again in the 4th, serving at 4-5: DF, brilliant, unreturned, brilliant then - from 40:15 - Tsits dropper winner, tired BH error on 3rd ball into net - at deuce - tired BH error wide on 3rd ball - set point Tsits - bailout dropper fail.

And how good were the time violation warnings given to Gioco and the Nadal about three points before the umps thought the matches were going to end? "Great timing man..." - munches date - "...giving me a warning. Awesome. Awesome refereeing man." Djokodal sure give me plenty of time to type up my thoughts.

Tsits is such an enigma. I maintain that he's just not that good. He plays quite dumb for long periods in big matches Vs the guys he is supposed to see as his rivals and have plan(s) for. He's not as dumb as Tim, but that's not saying much. For a guy with a lot of options, Tsits doesn't use them that well. And properly gassed - red-faced, cramping and limping - in the 5th.

This speaks to a lack of clarity in the game plan and dysfunctional coaching, bringing me to the other thing I really don't like: the Tomic vibes I'm getting with the Dad. That is not going to end well, either with the coaching violations or the actual coaching. Also, I have nothing but lols for Mouratoglu.


Items and patterns of interest:

0. Tsits' court position. A skilful, attacking OHBH player, a good mover with great all-court skills but he LIVES in such a poor, deep court position. It's especially puzzling in these conditions where the ball is not getting past him and is going to be there in a decent hitting zone, especially against players like Novak who aren't going to hit him off the court. He only started playing closer to the baseline and moving his bodyweight into the shots in the last game of the 3rd. Way too late.

1. Gioco doesn't handle a OHBH moon ball CC from Tsits as well he does the similar ball from Nadal's FH. It's probably because the shot itself is much less consistent than Rafa's FH so hard to predict, in addition to the read difficulty Gioco has with the OHBH in general. If Tsits' court position was more aggressive, he could've used this pattern a lot more to set up the run-around FH, which was winning when he executed it properly.

2. Tsits' defensive FH DTL, also a bit moonbally, really jammed Gioco back into the BH corner and reset the points beautifully, even if it did deprive him of a bit of time. More broadly, Tsits did a good job depriving Gioco of FHs from open court/OTR etc.

3. Tsits' slightly short play (usually slice BH) into Gioco's middle-BH side to open up for Tsits' DTL BH into Gioco's FH. This is the Stan-Dom technique and was not used nearly enough. I think mostly because Tsits is not that confident in the DTL BH. Only started pulling the trigger on it at 6-5 in the 3rd. Wayyy too late for such a proven strategy, even if you only use it enough to make him fear it.

4. When Tsits is really unloading on the groundstrokes, especially the FH, he gets into position earlier, sets much more side on and holds the stroke a little before using a much more rotation and higher swing speed. It has the advantage of being much harder to read, but it's a bit more error-prone. Also the same or greater increase in power could come from a better leg drive with core rotation into the shots, especially on clay when the feet have more time to prepare.

5. Tsits serve. It was redlining. It could improve to technique-wise but I see that only really improving how his feet are positioned to accept the return rather than in the potency of the serve.

Great post. Thanks. I enjoyed reading it.
 
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