NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yes agreed. That qualified as a definite choke.
2021 French Open - if Tsitsipas had won...
- Thread starter Aabye5
- Start date
Yep those matches were different imo.
Tsits was never actually in position to win, from third set and on Djokovic was in full control
Medvedev choked away 3BPs in the deciding set. Then all he had to do was to hold serve for a few games on a medium fast hard court.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Did Tsistipas even get to bp in sets 3-5? I don't remember it if he did.
That 3-2 game was the turning point in the match when Medvedev couldn't break after 0-40 and he got tight. He started complaining about the crowd for some strange reason instead of maintaining focus, and then the Nadal comeback was on. Two totally different matches.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
If if if anything, we should feel bad for Lendl.
Career | vs Top5 | T5 Weight | vs Top10 | T10 Weight | vs T11+ | T11+ Weight | vs All |
Nole | 203 (123-80) 60.59% | 15.08% | 375 (259-116) 69.07% | 27.86% | 971 (865-106) 89.08% | 72.14% | 1346 (1124-222) 83.51% |
Fed | 179 (104-75) 58.10% | 11.73% | 347 (224-123) 64.55% | 22.74% | 1179 (1027-152) 87.11% | 77.26% | 1526 (1251-275) 81.98% |
Rafa | 156 (93-63) 59.62% | 11.94% | 291 (186-105) 63.92% | 22.26% | 1016 (894-122) 87.99% | 77.74% | 1307 (1080-227) 82.63% |
Lendl | 163 (94-69) 57.67% | 12.44% | 257 (165-92) 64.20% | 19.62% | 1053 (903-150) 85.75% | 80.38% | 1310 (1068-242) 81.53% |
| | | | | | | |
Peak | vs Top5 | T5 Weight | vs Top10 | T10 Weight | vs T11+ | T11+ Weight | vs All |
Nole 11-16 | 91 (66-25) 72.53% | 19.08% | 174 (140-34) 80.46% | 36.48% | 303 (287-16) 94.72% | 63.52% | 477 (427-50) 89.52% |
Fed 04-09 | 67 (44-23) 65.67% | 13.59% | 121 (91-30) 75.21% | 24.54% | 372 (351-21) 94.35% | 75.46% | 493 (442-51) 89.66% |
Rafa 08-13 | 73 (47-26) 64.38% | 15.60% | 133 (93-40) 69.92% | 28.42% | 335 (313-22) 93.43% | 71.58% | 468 (406-62) 86.75% |
Lendl 84-89 | 74 (52-22) 70.27% | 15.81% | 116 (83-33) 71.55% | 24.79% | 352 (333-19) 94.60% | 75.21% | 468 (416-52) 88.89% |
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Dont remember either, would have to rewatch. But I remember Djokovic was clearly the best player from third set and out
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
His choke saved us from a world of little tennis tykes named Tsitsi running around with Jesus hair and headbands.
RSJfan
Hall of Fame
DJT is bringing his comedy tour to MSG today so I went by to check it out but they wouldn’t let anyone on a bicycle get closer than one block to The Garden presumably you had to be on your feet and go through a security check like you will have to do to get near the marathon finish line on Sunday. It wasn’t as crowded outside as I expected because I know people like his act. I think he’s doing the same old bits and not any new material so I guess it’s only diehards that want to hear the same jokes.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
That's why I think he will lose
The same schtick going on since 2014 honestly.
Youngheart
Semi-Pro
Your straightforward sentence is as ruthless as the brutal truth can be!!
I wonder which bar Tsitsipas spent the night in, after that humbling loss.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
That would be a much welcomed but unlikely side effect.
Where are all of Fed's one-handed progeny? Stef, Shapo and now the new kid on the block?
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Lendl, like his protege Andy Murray, is a testament to human will.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
So, in your book, there is no way for Tsitsipas to win this match - Novak has to lose it?
Interesting point about the Henin - Mauresmo dynamic.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Hitman
Bionic Poster
RG 2021 is one of the most iconic and greatest runs of all time, the right guy won it in the end. Tsitsipas though should have continued to build on that momentum and come back to RG the following years stronger, unfortunately for him, he ran into Alcaraz the last few years who is a terrible match up for him.
Or, Tsit dragging the 3rd set to tiebreak and getting a lucky net cord.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
But that's totally different than Novak losing the match. Also, it's why the commentators always say, 'You make your own luck'. (Maybe it should be called the Domi Thiem principle
)If you push enough sets to tiebreaks, if you show up in enough finals, or are just overall consistent enough, sometimes you get the lucky net cord or the double or you get to play Zed rather than the big 3 in the final.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Why did the right guy win? He was tired in the first two sets and the younger player should have taken advantage.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Right guy won. Tsitsi beat zverev big deal. Just a year back nole had beaten tsitsi then again Rome
Tsitsi is good but nole OWNs him
Tsitsi is good but nole OWNs him
taster
Rookie
Yes. Any hypothetical that has Tsitsipas winning, literally means he wasn't the player who was actually playing that day.
We can speculate what would it take for Tim Henman to have won 11 slams, but to do that you require him being something he never was. So unless every player in his way to those slam titles falls ill or something, he can't win 11 slams being Tim Henman.
If he served better, was taller, was less prone to chocking etc, he would have been a better player - but he wasn't.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
But Tim Henman never even reached a major final and I think that's telling.
It seems to come down to whether or not you believe Tsitsipas can defeat Djokovic in Bo5. He was cramping at some point, iirc.
taster
Rookie
Belief can take you anywhere with a counterfactual - Henman could have won 15 slams if he wasn't prone to choking, Tsitsipas could have won if he hadn't cramped, if a gust of wind had blown federer's forehand in at 40-15 in that final, he would have 9 Wimbledon slam titles. What if Tsitsipas didn't cramp during the match, but instead felt a little dizzy at the start of the match, giving Djokovic a two sets to love lead?
I can believe Tsitsipas can defeat Djoko in a best of five and in pink unicorns too, who cares?
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
It's a question of how close he was to winning. Tsitsipas was leading the match. That's a fact. He was one set away from a major. That's not very far in the grand scheme of major tennis.
Yes, Djokovic played better in the latter stages of that match, but how much did Tsitsipas drop off?
Tim Henman was very far comparatively speaking.
taster
Rookie
I know Henman was far off comparatively, the point was that you can postulate any counterfactual - however fanciful, the examples may change, but it's all just fantasy.
Tsitsipas cramping is as much of a truth of that match as the colour of his eyes or his footprints in the clay, to think otherwise is to speculate another reality, and if you're doing that, why stop and cramping?
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Well, you could post about Henman. Hypotheticals are part of the fun on this forum. Someone posted about 40-15 recently.
I think this was a critical match and Tsitsipas was coming into the match in good form. My point about him cramping is that it was something that can be resolved, but he seemed to lose his way a bit after the match.
Would this match have served as a launching pad if it had gone the other way?
DIMI_D
Hall of Fame
Look right now Djoker is headed out the door very soon maybe this is his last competitive yr in slams as a contender. Which he would still own Tsitsi on 1 leg Steph has deteriorated alot and had no progression to alleviate any of his weaknesses. This next phase we will prob see a few weird or unlikely slam winners as sinner and Alcaraz get the lions share but there is a possibility now for the likes of Zverev and others to get 1-2 as well as the big 3 are finally out the door. Steph will prob won’t be one of them as guys like Filis, Drapper and so many others are even ahead of him in the pecking order these days… Med will probably get some more slams I expect soon as well by purely hanging around longer than the big 3
taster
Rookie
A lot of this forum is about hypotheticals - that's true, which, and lets be clear, are about fantasy - imagining alternative realities and arguing stuff that can't be proven. Whether it's the slight hesitation on match point or imagining a player didn't exist or was 10 year older, it's all the same - fantasy.
You may be right about the French Open final being a critical match for Tsitsipas, it was his first slam final, so it would be astonishing if it wasn't. Certainly it must have had a short term psychological effect on him at the very least.
You're comment on his cramping is interesting, you talk about it in the present tense about it being 'something that can be resolved', well it's a past event, it can't be resolved and even if it was resolved at the time, we cannot know the consequences of that. It's as unknowable as any other hypothetical, if Fed's forehand had gone in at 40-15, If Alcaraz hadn't cramped against Djokovic at the French semi, If Rafter hadn't cramped against Agassi in the Australian semi, and that's just cramping, we can think of millions of these hypotheticals that can never be known - that's just how the world is.
Pheasant
Legend
What would it have taken for Tsitsipas to close out Djoker? If he had Sinner's BH, precision of shots, and endurance, combined with Alcaraz's FH, speed, versatility, net play, and clutchness, then he would have closed out Djoker in that match. Then, Tsitsipas would have gone on to win 7 more slam titles while ending up with 2 YE #1s while waiting to be YE#1 this year. The GOAT threads about Tsitsipas would be rampant. Tsitispas wolud then retire at the end of this year with his 3rd YE #1 and run for president.
TsitisGOAT. Well, almost. TsitsiCrownPrince.
TsitisGOAT. Well, almost. TsitsiCrownPrince.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Not just critical for Tsitsipas, but overall it was an important match. Djokovic was going for his second French Open.
It's interesting that Tsitsipas cramped, because he doesn't seem to have a fitness problem in 5 set matches. But if it was a cramping issue, it doesn't quite explain why his results faded after that.
And the question is whether winning this match (which is a hypothetical) would have led to further success. What's the role of confidence?
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
But that's hyperbole. All it would have taken is one set. It didn't take all that to win the first two.
Pheasant
Legend
I'm just having some fun. I get your point, so I will try to answer your question the best that I can.
I think that breaking the seal during the match in question would have led to one more slam title for Tsitispas. For a player like that, already having a slam title in your trophy cabinet makes a huge difference. I.e, had Stefanos won that match, then I think that he would have bagged another one.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Thanks for answering the question.
There are a lot of people who think he could never beat Djokovic, which is also a valid answer. However, I think the gap was closer than it is in his matchup against Alcaraz, for example. So, to say he would have to change his style or at least completely change up his tactics is not entirely untrue in that case.
taster
Rookie
That may be the question, but there is no answer, we simply cannot know whether it would have led to further slam success. You can ask the question for the rest of your life, you'll never know.
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