2023 18+ Intermountain Sectionals

[TennisOTM]

Starting soon: 8/11-12 in Salt Lake City. I'm not playing but may try to check out some matches in person.

Some storylines:

The Nevada 4.0 men's team has some players who won Nationals at 3.0 in 2021 and 3.5 in 2022. Can they make a three straight Nationals trips at three different levels?

The Utah 4.5 men's captain headed up the National champion team at 3.5 in 2018, and then won three straight 4.0 Nationals in 2019, 2021, and 2022. How will his 4.5 team do?

The Wyoming district appears to not be sending any men's or women's teams at any level. What happened there??

There are usually some pretty strong Colorado teams, especially at the highest levels - I believe they swept 4.5 and 5.0 Sectionals in both men's and women's last year. How good are they this year?

Anyone else following this event?

 

[the_faceless_player]

I’m here playing 5.0 and my 4.5 team is here as well

Wyoming basically doesn’t do organized USTA league and hasn’t for as long as I can recall (I worked for a USTA district office 12+ years ago). I also wonder why UT doesn’t send a 5.0 team. Ive heard many of the 5.0s there have some sort of beef with the local USTA office or something but haven’t heard the whole story

 

[onehandbh]

I’m here playing 5.0 and my 4.5 team is here as well

Wyoming basically doesn’t do organized USTA league and hasn’t for as long as I can recall (I worked for a USTA district office 12+ years ago). I also wonder why UT doesn’t send a 5.0 team. Ive heard many of the 5.0s there have some sort of beef with the local USTA office or something but haven’t heard the whole story

btw, do you know many 7.0s (ATP) are currently in Utah or came from Utah?

 

[TennisOTM]

I’m here playing 5.0 and my 4.5 team is here as well

Wyoming basically doesn’t do organized USTA league and hasn’t for as long as I can recall (I worked for a USTA district office 12+ years ago). I also wonder why UT doesn’t send a 5.0 team. Ive heard many of the 5.0s there have some sort of beef with the local USTA office or something but haven’t heard the whole story

I thought I had seen Wyoming teams before, and now looking back I was thinking of Tri-Level - they sent teams to Tri-Level sectionals last year. Maybe that's the only format where they can fill enough teams.

Utah has 5.0 for women, though it was only a two-team league this year. It does seem like there could be at least a couple of men's 5.0 teams - there was a healthy 10-team 4.5 league this year so you'd think there would be enough population to spill over. Luckily I myself will never have to worry about that, haha.

Enjoy your tournament!

 

[TennisOTM]

One of the matches to watch is done: Utah 4.5 men defeated Nevada 5-0. The Nevada squad had looked pretty strong on TR, but only managed to win two sets and 33% of games.

 

[Moon Shooter]

Tri-level play is the only type of play that does not give a huge advantage to tennis hotspots/metro areas. So it makes sense that Wyoming would only play a few Tri-level leagues. But unfortunately USTA has some weird rules about Tri-level play and how teams can be formed.

 

[TennisOTM]

Colorado 4.5 men defeated Montana 4-1, winning those 4 matches easily and losing a tight one at 3D. Utah vs. Colorado later this afternoon will be a big one.

 

[KamehamehaBackhand]

Wyoming had teams for combo mixed (7.5, etc.) last fall at sectionals. The captain of the team said she had to organize two teams and have them play each other a couple times one weekend to get one qualified for Ssctionals.

 

[Lazuras_Long]

Also for those playing along at home Wyomings entire population is 580,000 ish people.

There’s more people in Las Vegas proper than all of Wyoming. Note, this is not the Vegas metro area, which is like 3 million, just the within the city limits

As such Getting a reliable USTA league going in such a sparsely populated area would be impossible

 

[schmke]

For the 4.5 men, my simulation predicts (before any matches played):

Colorado
Utah
Nevada
Idaho
Montana

Colorado wins it all the majority of the time.

For the 4.0 men:

Colorado
Nevada
Utah
Idaho

Colorado is the significant favorite here too.

 

[TennisOTM]

Wow, the 4.5 Utah men crushed Colorado 5-0, all in straight sets. Idaho beat Nevada and plays Utah & Colorado tomorrow.

The 4.0 Utah team also had a good day, beating Nevada 4-1 and Idaho 5-0. Nevada crushed Colorado 5-0.

@schmke, did the Colorado teams not bring their best players?

 

[TennisOTM]

Whoa, actually looks like a Colorado 4.0 guy got DQ'ed after a doubles win! Then they forfeited a singles line in the next match.

 

[schmke]

4.0M

The DQ'd Colorado player had been flirting with a DQ for while, nearly every match this year rating over 4.00. And Idaho pulled two modest upsets on the other two courts. Utah pulled one upset vs Nevada and one minor upset in theiir 5-0 win over Idaho.

Colorado does seem to be missing their second best player and played their 2nd lowest rated player twice so far.

4.5M

This has been very close to predicted. First two matches, no upsets. Idaho gave up a tiny (0.02) upset in their win over Nevada. Utah pulled a 0.03 upset over Colorado.

This Colorado team also missing their second best player and #8, and has played players 9 thru 15 eight times. Several of their top-7 only played once today.

 

[Creighton]

Interesting they disqualify during sectionals.

 

[schmke]

Interesting they disqualify during sectionals.

As they should. Why let a team benefit from an out of level player for the whole event, especially if the third strike is the first of five or six matches?

 

[TennisOTM]

The 4.0 men's Sectional is over. Utah clinched it this morning with a 4-1 win over Colorado, who again defaulted a singles line after losing a player yesterday to DQ. The Nevada team with former 3.0 and 3.5 national champs on the roster finished second. This Utah team includes several players who spent the last few years losing out to the three-peat national champs in local league, so they must be psyched to have a Nationals shot this year.

In 4.5 men's, the Utah team beat Idaho 4-1 this morning, losing only 3D in a close 2 sets. They are now 3-0 and 14-1 in matches, with only 1-2 Montana left to play. Seems like it's pretty much in the bag. How good is this team going to be nationally?

Utah 3.5 men went undefeated to win that title as well. Home court advantage seems to be strong this year.

5.0 men is coming down to Nevada and Colorado. Nevada men took the title at 3.0.

On the women's side, there was a tight battle at the 4.5 level: three teams finished with one loss and the tie breaker came all the way down to games. Idaho and Colorado both went 2-1, 9-6, and 22-17 in sets. Idaho squeaked through with a 144-119 games record vs. 143-125. I don't think Idaho gets many trips to Nationals, so congrats to them!

 

[the_faceless_player]

CO 5.0 won against NV 2-1 this afternoon. They need a sweep at 4pm against ID and have offered us bottomless beverages

 

[TennisOTM]

Looks like all the champions are settled now.

Utah has 5 teams going to Nationals: 3.5, 4.0, & 4.5 men, and 2.5 & 5.0 women.

Nevada will send 3 teams: 3.0 men and 3.0 & 3.5 women.

Colorado, despite being the largest district in the section, had just 2 teams win: 5.0 men and 4.0 women.

Idaho's 4.5 women round out the list of Sectional champs.

Congrats to all!

 

[Moon Shooter]

Also for those playing along at home Wyomings entire population is 580,000 ish people.

There’s more people in Las Vegas proper than all of Wyoming. Note, this is not the Vegas metro area, which is like 3 million, just the within the city limits

As such Getting a reliable USTA league going in such a sparsely populated area would be impossible

Yet they have a Tri-level team. There are plenty of things usta could do for smaller areas. They just choose to exclusively cater to large metro areas. I wish there was a national tennis org for the rest of the country.

 

[Moon Shooter]

….
Some storylines:

The Nevada 4.0 men's team has some players who won Nationals at 3.0 in 2021 and 3.5 in 2022. Can they make a three straight Nationals trips at three different levels?

The Utah 4.5 men's captain headed up the National champion team at 3.5 in 2018, and then won three straight 4.0 Nationals in 2019, 2021, and 2022. How will his 4.5 team do?….

 

[Moon Shooter]

As they should. Why let a team benefit from an out of level player for the whole event, especially if the third strike is the first of five or six matches?

Dont all the teams at nationals have out of level players if we look at playing strength? It’s all just a matter of how you can manipulate the rules to get the most out of level players there within the rules. That’s one reason why it is silly to take level based nations too seriously.

 

[Lazuras_Long]

Wrong post

 

[Lazuras_Long]

Yet they have a Tri-level team. There are plenty of things usta could do for smaller areas. They just choose to exclusively cater to large metro areas. I wish there was a national tennis org for the rest of the country.

Tri-level is the exception that proves the rule.

In small population areas, It’s a lot easier to get multiple teams by drawing from players across multiple rating levels rather than just one rating level, which is the subject of this thread.

 

[Creighton]

Tri-level is the exception that proves the rule.

In small population areas, It’s a lot easier to get multiple teams by drawing from players across multiple rating levels rather than just one rating level, which is the subject of this thread.

Must be new here. Moonie only cares about his concerns and has zero concern for the rest of the USTA players.

 

[Racquet Scientist]

For the 4.5 men, my simulation predicts (before any matches played):

Colorado
Utah
Nevada
Idaho
Montana

Colorado wins it all the majority of the time.

For the 4.0 men:

Colorado
Nevada
Utah
Idaho

Colorado is the significant favorite here too.

I just found this thread. Utah and a certain captain are dispersed throughout the TalkTennis site. It's hard to keep track.

It's interesting the simulations based on USTA TennisLink data showed Colorado was the favorite in the 4.5 draw. Utah was the heavy favorite I thought, but I didn't run any analyses using software. However, based on a quick scan, Colorado did not have any players higher than a 7 UTR on their team. In contrast, Utah only had one player lower than an 8 UTR in their lineup. And history and recent tournament results not calculated in show higher actual play levels. In addition to the past 4.0 ringers, they have a former UConn college player, who is undefeated this year.

 

[Creighton]

I just found this thread. Utah and a certain captain are dispersed throughout the TalkTennis site. It's hard to keep track.

It's interesting the simulations based on USTA TennisLink data showed Colorado was the favorite in the 4.5 draw. Utah was the heavy favorite I thought, but I didn't run any analyses using software. However, based on a quick scan, Colorado did not have any players higher than a 7 UTR on their team. In contrast, Utah only had one player lower than an 8 UTR in their lineup. And history and recent tournament results not calculated in show higher actual play levels. In addition to the past 4.0 ringers, they have a former UConn college player, who is undefeated this year.

This post just reminded me of the infamous Texas captain. Is JF competing at 4.0 this year or just having his guys tank to win 3.5 again?

 

[Racquet Scientist]

Just to add a bit more context, I am not insinuating that the former college player is doing anything shady. That particular player's record looks just like one who is at the top of the heap of a rating level. Whether a player like that prefers to win every match at one rating level or go 60% or so at the next one is a personal decision. Also, as he had a computer rating and there is no 5.0 league even, his hands are pretty much tied. I was noting that his record and UTR results looked very strong for a 4.5 player at Sectionals. It seemed to me for a host of reasons that Utah was the heavy favorite going in. For example, it looks like Colorado had only one 8 UTR player, who did not travel to Sectionals; they did not have 8+ UTR's throughout their lineup like Utah did.

I'm moving the rest of my post to another thread out of respect to TennisOTM.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Looks like all the champions are settled now.

Utah has 5 teams going to Nationals: 3.5, 4.0, & 4.5 men, and 2.5 & 5.0 women.

Nevada will send 3 teams: 3.0 men and 3.0 & 3.5 women.

Colorado, despite being the largest district in the section, had just 2 teams win: 5.0 men and 4.0 women.

Idaho's 4.5 women round out the list of Sectional champs.

Congrats to all!

Utah, the new hotbed of tennis? Maybe?

 

[Tiafoe]

I'm sure all the Utah teams went to Fowkes seminar at a discounted price. Gotta learn from the best on how to rig the sys.., er, develop players.

 

[J_R_B]

I just found this thread. Utah and a certain captain are dispersed throughout the TalkTennis site. It's hard to keep track.

It's interesting the simulations based on USTA TennisLink data showed Colorado was the favorite in the 4.5 draw. Utah was the heavy favorite I thought, but I didn't run any analyses using software. However, based on a quick scan, Colorado did not have any players higher than a 7 UTR on their team. In contrast, Utah only had one player lower than an 8 UTR in their lineup. And history and recent tournament results not calculated in show higher actual play levels. In addition to the past 4.0 ringers, they have a former UConn college player, who is undefeated this year.

UT's players are underrated in the mathematical algorithms since their team is made up of guys whose experience coming into this year was made up of entirely 4.0 matches, probably half of which were "managed". Seeing their result against NJ at 4.0 nationals last year, those guys are 5.0 level players and always have been. It's only a matter of time until they migrate to their true ratings (and then UT should be able to have a healthy 5.0 league...).

 

[schmke]

UT's players are underrated in the mathematical algorithms since their team is made up of guys whose experience coming into this year was made up of entirely 4.0 matches, probably half of which were "managed". Seeing their result against NJ at 4.0 nationals last year, those guys are 5.0 level players and always have been. It's only a matter of time until they migrate to their true ratings (and then UT should be able to have a healthy 5.0 league...).

Are you referring to this year's Utah 4.0 men's team that just won Sectionals? Or the "Utah captain"s 4.5 team? I assume the former but wanted to confirm before I dig in to the stats

 

[tennis3]

Are you referring to this year's Utah 4.0 men's team that just won Sectionals? Or the "Utah captain"s 4.5 team? I assume the former but wanted to confirm before I dig in to the stats

Would you mind digging into the stats for both the 4.0 and 4.5 teams. I'm pretty sure the 4.0 team won't have anyone that is "suspicious". These are all just 4.0 players.

The 4.5 team might have a few guys that look like 5.0 guys, but probably nothing too crazy (I know these guys were losing early in the Open tournaments). They're a strong team, but not a team made up of wildly out of division players (like their 4.0 team last year).

 

[TennisOTM]

Just noticed that the Nevada 4.0 men's team had a player DQ'ed. So both Colorado and Nevada had a DQ at 4.0 Sectionals. The Nevada guy played in (and won) all three matches, so it must of been his third match that produced strike three. He had only played two matches prior to Sectionals, which looked completely harmless on Tennisrecord. Luckily his three lines being reversed from wins to losses did not affect the standings - Nevada still finished second to Utah.

 

[J_R_B]

Are you referring to this year's Utah 4.0 men's team that just won Sectionals? Or the "Utah captain"s 4.5 team? I assume the former but wanted to confirm before I dig in to the stats

The "Utah captain"'s team. Those guys were 5.0s playing 4.0 last year. It's nearly impossible to finish the year with a 5.0C rating playing only 4.0 level matches, so even though guys like Craig and Balls were bumped to 4.5, they're 5.0s and still underrated in the math-driven ratings.

 

[tennis3]

The "Utah captain"'s team. Those guys were 5.0s playing 4.0 last year. It's nearly impossible to finish the year with a 5.0C rating playing only 4.0 level matches, so even though guys like Craig and Balls were bumped to 4.5, they're 5.0s and still underrated in the math-driven ratings.

Those guys are 5.0 and there are probably a few other 5.0's as well. But not "crazy strong" 5.0's. Like I said, these guys are losing early in the Open tournaments to "normal" 5.0 players.

The guy that won the 4.5 USTA tournaments the last few years is on this team and he's not good enough to play the singles line.

 

[J_R_B]

Those guys are 5.0 and there are probably a few other 5.0's as well. But not "crazy strong" 5.0's. Like I said, these guys are losing early in the Open tournaments to "normal" 5.0 players.

The guy that won the 4.5 USTA tournaments the last few years is on this team and he's not good enough to play the singles line.

I mean, ok, but using 5.0 level players on a 4.0 team is still pretty slimy even if they are just low level 5.0s. LOL.

 

[tennis3]

I mean, ok, but using 5.0 level players on a 4.0 team is still pretty slimy even if they are just low level 5.0s. LOL.

I totally agree. Playing 5.0 guys at the 4.0 level is just stupid for everyone else. Nobody had a chance of beating these guys last year. I'm actually surprised the Captain even played them. He had enough guys to win Nationals last year without even using Craig or Balls. In 2021 he sat his best guys at 4.0 Nationals because he didn't need them.

I don't know a ton about USTA teams, but it seems to me that if you are going to have a shot at winning 4.5 Nationals, you need guys at the level of Craig and Balls. So I'm not sure if it's "too" out of bounds this year. I'd guess they'll have some serious competition from some of the other Nationals teams.

 

[J_R_B]

I totally agree. Playing 5.0 guys at the 4.0 level is just stupid for everyone else. Nobody had a chance of beating these guys last year. I'm actually surprised the Captain even played them. He had enough guys to win Nationals last year without even using Craig or Balls. In 2021 he sat his best guys at 4.0 Nationals because he didn't need them.

I don't know a ton about USTA teams, but it seems to me that if you are going to have a shot at winning 4.5 Nationals, you need guys at the level of Craig and Balls. So I'm not sure if it's "too" out of bounds this year. I'd guess they'll have some serious competition from some of the other Nationals teams.

It's not so bad this year. They should have been playing for 4.5 nationals the whole time. At least that will be a challenge. Regardless, I expect several of them to get bumped to 5.0 after this run.

 

[the_faceless_player]

Those guys are 5.0 and there are probably a few other 5.0's as well. But not "crazy strong" 5.0's. Like I said, these guys are losing early in the Open tournaments to "normal" 5.0 players.

The guy that won the 4.5 USTA tournaments the last few years is on this team and he's not good enough to play the singles line.

Yeah I agree with this after seeing things in person this weekend. They definitely have guys who are top end 4.5 / lower end 5.0 but I think they would have gotten pounded by the the CO & NV 5.0 teams. CO had a singles player who played at Hofstra as recently as 2019 and is an 11.5 UTR. He was a great player and he lost to a NV guy who had played at BSU and was still in his late 20s.

 

[schmke]

The "Utah captain"'s team. Those guys were 5.0s playing 4.0 last year. It's nearly impossible to finish the year with a 5.0C rating playing only 4.0 level matches, so even though guys like Craig and Balls were bumped to 4.5, they're 5.0s and still underrated in the math-driven ratings.

Interestingly, this year's 4.5 team doesn't have many players fitting that description.

Of the 18 on the roster that played, only four have been 4.0s in any way for the past few years, and two of those by my ratings are lower half 4.5s at this point so not on their way to being 5.0s. And 11 of the other 14 are 4.5C that were 4.5C or 4.5S last year. There is one 4.5S that was a 4.5M the last two years, another 4.5S who was a 4.5C for four straight years 2015-2018 and then a 4.5T two years ago, and one new 4.5S that may be borderline 4.5/5.0. So perhaps just three that are new self-rates or 4.0S last year that could be on their to 5.0.

As far as upsets at Sectionals, in their four matches (20 courts played), they pulled a 0.03 upset in one match, had a 0.21 upset against them in another, and had a 0.08 upset go their way in another match. So they weren't so underrated that they pulled more upsets than you might expect and had one against them.

Now, their top-8 average did rise from 4.45 to 4.49 from the four matches so they did do better than expected, but any team that wins Sectionals usually has their top-8 average go up some. A 0.04 rise is probably on the larger end of what you normally see though.

 

[schmke]

Just noticed that the Nevada 4.0 men's team had a player DQ'ed. So both Colorado and Nevada had a DQ at 4.0 Sectionals. The Nevada guy played in (and won) all three matches, so it must of been his third match that produced strike three. He had only played two matches prior to Sectionals, which looked completely harmless on Tennisrecord. Luckily his three lines being reversed from wins to losses did not affect the standings - Nevada still finished second to Utah.

The Nevada player quite possibly got all three strikes from his three Sectionals matches.

The Colorado player likely had a strike from the regular season where he played a double match with a relatively low rated partner, then got another at local playoffs or Districts before a third at Sectionals.

 

[schmke]

Would you mind digging into the stats for both the 4.0 and 4.5 teams. I'm pretty sure the 4.0 team won't have anyone that is "suspicious". These are all just 4.0 players.

The 4.5 team might have a few guys that look like 5.0 guys, but probably nothing too crazy (I know these guys were losing early in the Open tournaments). They're a strong team, but not a team made up of wildly out of division players (like their 4.0 team last year).

Sent a separate reply on the 4.5 team.

The 4.0 team had all 17 rostered players play at least two matches including two 3.5C players that got a combined 10 appearances in the regular season.

There are three self-rates, one was a 4.0T last year and a 4.0C in 2017 and 2018 with a one year bump up to 4.5C in 2019. Another was a 4.0T from last year and the third had a 4.0M from 2021.