2025 USTA League Nationals match schedules are out

Tanking. Looking at his results from this year and last fall and having watched him play, some of the match results are hilarious.
I'm not sure he tanked so much as the USTA just really missed. He was a 4.5S and played just three matches, but he won a 4.5 match ... and got a 3.5C. And yes, both 4.5 opponents he beat were year-end 4.5s.

Now, he lost two matches, one really lopsided and it was against two 4.0s, so yeah, perhaps that one was tanked to try and ensure a 4.0, but a 3.5 is what the USTA came up with for a guy who won a 4.5 match against two 4.5s?
 
For the 4.0 men, at least 8, probably 9, teams will be 2-1 or better going into the last matches. Just three undefeated teams and two of them play each other and the other plays IM. Can a 3-1 / 12-8 team make the semis?
Well, the 4.0 men has Florida, Texas (lost 3-2 to Florida), Eastern, and Intermountain. A full 7 teams at 3-1 for the last 3 spots. My simulation had the top-3 (slightly different order) and had Intermountain 5th, so not too bad.

The 4.0 women had three 4-0 teams (NorCal, Southern, Florida) and SoCal beat out two other teams for the last spot. My simulation had three of these in the top-3 spots, and Florida was the 6th pick, so not too bad here either.
 
I’ve played against one of the 4.0s he lost to. Avg older guy no real weapons.

Losing 2-3 to a guy rated 4.3 where every game went to deuce then shortly thereafter losing 0-2 to a guy rated 3.15. C’mon
 
Wow, the Florida 4.0 men were the only undefeated team in round robin, and they had to beat both the 2nd place (Texas) and the 3rd place (Eastern) teams to do it. Let's see if they'll have any gas left for the semis. If they can get past Intermountain, there'll be a rematch in the finals.
 
Wow, the Florida 4.0 men were the only undefeated team in round robin, and they had to beat both the 2nd place (Texas) and the 3rd place (Eastern) teams to do it. Let's see if they'll have any gas left for the semis. If they can get past Intermountain, there'll be a rematch in the finals.
Texas had to play Intermountain and Florida. So there will be a rematch in 3 of the 4 scenarios:

Texas and Florida win, rematch of 3-2 Florida win (both teams kind of knew the scenario as was last match)

Texas and Intermountain win, rematch of 4-1 Texas win in first match

Eastern and Florida win, rematch of 4-1 Florida win

Only if Eastern and Intermountain win do we not get a rematch.
 
You were right! Intermountain goes 4-0 (20-0) at Sectionals, and then can only manage 1-3 (6-14) against other sections. Nationals is tough.
Yeah, the simulation had them 12th but with a 2-2 and 9-11 record. 1-3 did have a 26% chance though.
 
Yeah, the simulation had them 12th but with a 2-2 and 9-11 record. 1-3 did have a 26% chance though.
Nice one. Overall, 3.5 men was tough to predict this year, no? Looks like your pre-tournament top 3 finished 4th, 9th, and 16th. Did they just not show up with their best players? What the heck happened to Texas??
 
Nice one. Overall, 3.5 men was tough to predict this year, no? Looks like your pre-tournament top 3 finished 4th, 9th, and 16th. Did they just not show up with their best players? What the heck happened to Texas??
The simulation did really well with the 4.0 men and women, but yeah, just looking at 3.5, for the women, two favorites made it, but the other two were only "have a chance" and not even contenders. For the men, just one favorite, two contenders, and a has a chance made it.

I think 3.5 is just less predictable as players are still changing significantly as they play more, and the sections are still disconnected for the most part so the relative ratings can be off some.
 
I’ve played against one of the 4.0s he lost to. Avg older guy no real weapons.

Losing 2-3 to a guy rated 4.3 where every game went to deuce then shortly thereafter losing 0-2 to a guy rated 3.15. C’mon
That is why I think the USTA should have checks in place to flag matches that are way outside of the expected result.
 
Only if Eastern and Intermountain win do we not get a rematch.
And that's what happened! It's Eastern vs. IM for the 4.0 title. Seems like a great tournament this year. Both semifinals were 3-2, and now all the top 4 have had at least one loss among each other.
 
Why did the two self-rate singles players in today's lineup play #3 doubles almost exclusively in the regular season? :unsure: And would USTA grant the appeal down to 4.0 for the doubles player in today's lineup knowing what they know now? With a 20-1 record this season, would he have been OK at 4.5 or higher in the 4.0 lineup? Maybe he just wasn't sure as he was playing with a new self-rate partner. But the self-rate was a high school state doubles champion coming from a program that had won six straight titles: https://www.deseret.com/2021/5/15/2...-6a-state-tennis-title-has-been-a-great-ride/. #1 dubs spot was reserved for member of 2020 national championship team. I could dig a bit more into the roster, but I guess these are all part of the "tricks."
 
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Intermountain won 4.0 men for 2nd year in a row?
They lost in the final to Southern 3-2 last year. Here is the recent history of 18+ 4.0 men

2025 - Intermountain
2024 - Southern (beat Intermountain in final 3-2)
2023 - Southern (Intermountain captain did not captain 4.0 but took a 4.5 team to Nationals finished 2-2 in round-robin)
2022 - No semis/final played, but Intermountain "won" going 4-0 / 19-1 in round-robin and first in the standings
2021 - Intermountain
2020 - Not held
2019 - Intermountain
 
Interesting to see how few of the players from last year's Intermountain team kept playing USTA league tennis in 2025 - lot of guys got bumped up to 4.5 and must've just lost interest ;)
 
Will this recent "win" change feelings at all in your home state in your opinion?
I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think so. I'm probably in a small minority of local players who are even following the scores at Nationals. Every time I can remember bringing up the topic to teammates in conversation, it was always news to them.

I can also say that the local 18+ 4.0 leagues have stayed quite healthy through all these recent years, even increasing in popularity. This year the league was pretty competitive, and it wasn't all that easy for the national champs to win district playoffs - they were a match TB away from losing one of their matches. Much of the team that nearly beat them is playing at 40+ Nationals next weekend, which maybe takes away some of the sting of losing 18+.

But I could be wrong, maybe the local league coordinators are getting bombarded with complaints as a I type this. If that kind of thing has been happening, I haven't heard much about it.
 
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I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think so. I'm probably in a small minority of local players who are even following the scores at Nationals. Every time I can remember bringing up the topic to teammates in conversation, it was always news to them.

I can also say that the local 18+ 4.0 leagues have stayed quite healthy through all these recent years, even increasing in popularity. This year the league was pretty competitive, and it wasn't all that easy for the national champs to win district playoffs - they were a match TB away from losing one of their matches. Much of the team that nearly beat them is playing at 40+ Nationals next weekend, which maybe takes away some of the sting of losing 18+.

But I could be wrong, maybe the local league coordinators are getting bombared with complaints as a I type this. If that kind of thing has been happening, I haven't heard much about it.
Thank you for these insights. I guess we know who the favorites will be in @schmke's simulation for 2026 then...
 
LOL, you never know. The captain tried it at 4.5 one year, and did make it to Nationals, so it isn't a given he is back at 4.0.
I think between you, me, and many others on this forum we know that he will probably be back ;) 4.0/3.5 is the sweet spot for the pool of players in this area for winning big. And we also know that USTA will most very likely not make any serious changes :sick:
 
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Yes, Utah 18+ 4.0 leagues are especially popular with 22-year-olds who have no business self rating at 4.0.

Same thing happens at 3.5.
Not sure if you're local, but would you say the leagues are unpopular with players who are not on the #1 teams? The overall participation numbers have stayed pretty high, and players in the 18-25 age range are still a pretty small minority.

I still think the vast, vast majority of league players hardly care about what the super teams are doing - they just want to play some competitive tennis and may even enjoy occasionally getting a match against a talented youngin. The minority of players who do care enough to get upset are way over-represented on these message boards.
 
I'm not surprised that the majority of local players in UT at that level don't know/care what that guy is doing. I think that's largely the case in any state and/or level. The issues are mainly going to be once Sectionals hits and the 5 other district champions that are paying $ to travel in hopes of making it to nationals are getting their doors blown off more years than not. The 4.0 team from here in ID knew they didn't have a chance before they even showed up. From what I hear around the section, all of the district USTA staff are fed up, complain to Intermountain and Intermountain in turn tells them to complain to National bc they can't or won't do anything. I know they've also been told that complaints to National have to be about "growth of the game" or "opportunity for play". Complaints about cheating, etc are going to get tuned out bc that's not technically what's happening.

Until National adjusts something (live DQ, self rate player limit, etc), I don't see anything happening unless the other 5 districts in ITA just stop showing up. I've said it before, this guy and the players who play on that team (we've heard stories of what they're "motivated" by) are just flat out weird IMO. Spending this much time & energy in scheming to win mid level rec tennis championships as grown adults is bizarre.
 
I'm not surprised that the majority of local players in UT at that level don't know/care what that guy is doing. I think that's largely the case in any state and/or level. The issues are mainly going to be once Sectionals hits and the 5 other district champions that are paying $ to travel in hopes of making it to nationals are getting their doors blown off more years than not. The 4.0 team from here in ID knew they didn't have a chance before they even showed up. From what I hear around the section, all of the district USTA staff are fed up, complain to Intermountain and Intermountain in turn tells them to complain to National bc they can't or won't do anything. I know they've also been told that complaints to National have to be about "growth of the game" or "opportunity for play". Complaints about cheating, etc are going to get tuned out bc that's not technically what's happening.

Until National adjusts something (live DQ, self rate player limit, etc), I don't see anything happening unless the other 5 districts in ITA just stop showing up. I've said it before, this guy and the players who play on that team (we've heard stories of what they're "motivated" by) are just flat out weird IMO. Spending this much time & energy in scheming to win mid level rec tennis championships as grown adults is bizarre.
Oh, the grievances… those storylines behind years-long feuds amongst captains can be very amusing.
 
Spending this much time & energy in scheming to win mid level rec tennis championships as grown adults is bizarre.
It may be good for business though--increasing club membership. Here's a new club seminar: https://sunproclub.com/events/adult-tennis-events/. I hid the four-letter words. Seems it would be good to organize some seminars for fighting back. It could be done virtually to accommodate all the districts/sections.

Creating a Cohesive and Successful Team

March 5th (Wed) 7pm, Upstairs Lounge​

A SUNPRO CLUB MEMBERS PERK

Presented by: ****

Are you ready to build a stronger, more unified, dedicated team? This seminar is designed for team captains, co-captains and players who want to enhance their team dynamics and achieve greater success.

What You’ll Learn:
• Strategies to create a team culture focused on collaboration and mutual support.
• Practice techniques that strengthen team bonds and boost overall performance.
• Proven methods to recruit and attract skilled, like-minded players to your team.

**** will share expert tips and actionable insights to help you lead your team to success while fostering a positive and cohesive environment. We look forward to seeing you there!

Cost: Free
 
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I'm not surprised that the majority of local players in UT at that level don't know/care what that guy is doing. I think that's largely the case in any state and/or level. The issues are mainly going to be once Sectionals hits and the 5 other district champions that are paying $ to travel in hopes of making it to nationals are getting their doors blown off more years than not. The 4.0 team from here in ID knew they didn't have a chance before they even showed up. From what I hear around the section, all of the district USTA staff are fed up, complain to Intermountain and Intermountain in turn tells them to complain to National bc they can't or won't do anything. I know they've also been told that complaints to National have to be about "growth of the game" or "opportunity for play". Complaints about cheating, etc are going to get tuned out bc that's not technically what's happening.

Until National adjusts something (live DQ, self rate player limit, etc), I don't see anything happening unless the other 5 districts in ITA just stop showing up. I've said it before, this guy and the players who play on that team (we've heard stories of what they're "motivated" by) are just flat out weird IMO. Spending this much time & energy in scheming to win mid level rec tennis championships as grown adults is bizarre.

It may be good for business though--increasing club membership. Here's a new club seminar: https://sunproclub.com/events/adult-tennis-events/. I hid the four-letter words. Seems it would be good to organize some seminars for fighting back. It could be done virtually to accommodate all the districts/sections.

Creating a Cohesive and Successful Team

March 5th (Wed) 7pm, Upstairs Lounge​

A SUNPRO CLUB MEMBERS PERK

Presented by: ****

Are you ready to build a stronger, more unified, dedicated team? This seminar is designed for team captains, co-captains and players who want to enhance their team dynamics and achieve greater success.

What You’ll Learn:
• Strategies to create a team culture focused on collaboration and mutual support.
• Practice techniques that strengthen team bonds and boost overall performance.
• Proven methods to recruit and attract skilled, like-minded players to your team.

**** will share expert tips and actionable insights to help you lead your team to success while fostering a positive and cohesive environment. We look forward to seeing you there!

Cost: Free
Yes, Fowkes strikes again, a legend. As a mere visitor to Salt Lake, I agree, I played at 5 clubs/locations and hardly anyone knew who Fowkes was except one club pro said "oh yeah, the guy who brings a laptop to matches and is taking notes all the time", intense dude.

I would never blame the players for all this, who would refuse free things, free food, free travel, free stringing. And, the people at Fowkes club are really nice, super cool, I'm not really adding anything to the conversation, I'll just say don't misunderstand my posts for negativity, I'm just fascinated by the behavior of the captain.

If I was young and could get free stuff, including court time in a winter climate, I'd play too.
 
Yes, Fowkes strikes again, a legend. As a mere visitor to Salt Lake, I agree, I played at 5 clubs/locations and hardly anyone knew who Fowkes was except one club pro said "oh yeah, the guy who brings a laptop to matches and is taking notes all the time", intense dude.

I would never blame the players for all this, who would refuse free things, free food, free travel, free stringing. And, the people at Fowkes club are really nice, super cool, I'm not really adding anything to the conversation, I'll just say don't misunderstand my posts for negativity, I'm just fascinated by the behavior of the captain.

If I was young and could get free stuff, including court time in a winter climate, I'd play too.

Yeah I mean I guess free stuff is just a weird motivator. I can't imagine being the age of a lot of those guys and wanting to spend my nights and weekends playing wayyyyyyy below my level against people mostly 2x my age, regardless of what was being offered. I enjoy tennis much more when I'm being pushed to my maximum ability, and even then mostly getting my butt kicked. This whole enterprise is just a different sort of thought process..........
 
Yeah I mean I guess free stuff is just a weird motivator. I can't imagine being the age of a lot of those guys and wanting to spend my nights and weekends playing wayyyyyyy below my level against people mostly 2x my age, regardless of what was being offered. I enjoy tennis much more when I'm being pushed to my maximum ability, and even then mostly getting my butt kicked. This whole enterprise is just a different sort of thought process..........
I had the same thought myself, I even have been "not excited" about some recent matches in mixed because my time is not infinite for tennis. But, I bet these kids play a lot more outside USTA and they only need to mess around at line 3 doubles twice a season, right? Then it's two weekends for sectionals/nationals. The club is maybe the nicest one there, a local can correct me if I'm wrong. All around, it's a pretty good deal for the young guys.
 
Yes, Fowkes strikes again, a legend. As a mere visitor to Salt Lake, I agree, I played at 5 clubs/locations and hardly anyone knew who Fowkes was except one club pro said "oh yeah, the guy who brings a laptop to matches and is taking notes all the time", intense dude.

I would never blame the players for all this, who would refuse free things, free food, free travel, free stringing. And, the people at Fowkes club are really nice, super cool, I'm not really adding anything to the conversation, I'll just say don't misunderstand my posts for negativity, I'm just fascinated by the behavior of the captain.

If I was young and could get free stuff, including court time in a winter climate, I'd play too.

Years ago I thought Fowkes was the problem with league tennis, but the reality is no one gets to nationals without cheating. So they're really just the best example of the problem.

How do you draw the line? You single them out for the being the best at what everyone else is doing?

I still find it odd though.
 
Yeah I mean I guess free stuff is just a weird motivator. I can't imagine being the age of a lot of those guys and wanting to spend my nights and weekends playing wayyyyyyy below my level against people mostly 2x my age, regardless of what was being offered. I enjoy tennis much more when I'm being pushed to my maximum ability, and even then mostly getting my butt kicked. This whole enterprise is just a different sort of thought process..........

I think the thing is, they get that high level tennis playing each other every week.

The travel/matches is just inflating the ego showing everyone how good they are. I can't see the appeal of spending my own money to do it, (I'm actually rostered on a team going to nationals and I had zero interest in playing in the playoffs this year). But if someone else was paying for the travel, I could see the fun in it.
 
Years ago I thought Fowkes was the problem with league tennis, but the reality is no one gets to nationals without cheating. So they're really just the best example of the problem.

How do you draw the line? You single them out for the being the best at whatever everyone else is doing?

I still find it odd though.
Yes, discussion is fun, but I'm not one to say there is a solution, I've seen a lot of attempts in Texas and it's really hard to stop what I think is now just human nature in rec adult sports. I just like observing the behavior. Fowkes is just smarter than most or more motivated, or richer, take your pick of words.

For those who think they can legislate extreme behavior out of USTA so that it is "clean" or whatever. I give you this example, literally a group in Dalla of 4.5s spent TWO WHOLE SEASONS, losing every weekend on purpose as bad as they could lose to get a bump down to 4.0 "legitimately". If groups of people are willing to do that, how do you make enough rules to cover that kind of energy and dedication? These guys had families, and kids, and still spent hours losing tennis on purpose.
 
Yes, Fowkes strikes again, a legend. As a mere visitor to Salt Lake, I agree, I played at 5 clubs/locations and hardly anyone knew who Fowkes was except one club pro said "oh yeah, the guy who brings a laptop to matches and is taking notes all the time", intense dude.

I would never blame the players for all this, who would refuse free things, free food, free travel, free stringing. And, the people at Fowkes club are really nice, super cool, I'm not really adding anything to the conversation, I'll just say don't misunderstand my posts for negativity, I'm just fascinated by the behavior of the captain.

If I was young and could get free stuff, including court time in a winter climate, I'd play too.
In a weird way, the USTA may actually be on board with the recruiting of new players, as, well, the USTA needs new players given the declining participation, even post "COVID tennis boom" that we were told was happening. Sure, looking deeper may reveal that some of these new players only play one or two years then don't play USTA League anymore, but the USTA will take the bump in registrations however they can get it.
 
Years ago I thought Fowkes was the problem with league tennis, but the reality is no one gets to nationals without cheating. So they're really just the best example of the problem.

How do you draw the line? You single them out for the being the best at what everyone else is doing?

I still find it odd though.
Yep, if you find a way to eliminate what the winning team does, there will just be another team that does slightly less or does it slightly differently that everyone complains about. It just seems that IM has perhaps taken it to the next level regarding the organization, training, and preparation to go along with the recruiting of players that have a big upside.

That isn't to say there should be no rules, I've written here and on my blog a bunch of times the steps I think should be taken to even the playing field.
 
I think the thing is, they get that high level tennis playing each other every week.

The travel/matches is just inflating the ego showing everyone how good they are. I can't see the appeal of spending my own money to do it, (I'm actually rostered on a team going to nationals and I had zero interest in playing in the playoffs this year). But if someone else was paying for the travel, I could see the fun in it.
I get it. It's an extraploation of that line from his seminars about "like minded players". I'm just not wired to vibe with that mindset.

I'd never look at these guys winning 4.0 titles (this team scenario or any of the other similar ones) and be like "Wow you're super good". I'd be more inclined to think "Wow, that's super weird and desperate that you spent your time playing that level to win a title nobody outside of 15 people will ever care about." I'd rather stick to being a mediocre 5.0 than get off on bullying people way below my skill level just to feed some internalized need for validation, but to each his own.
 
Looks like one 4.0 IM player got DQ'ed after Nationals. Interesting that he actually lost 3 of the 5 matches he played, including his last two singles matches in the semis and finals. He lost in straight sets to another self-rate who has not been DQ'ed.
 
Looks like one 4.0 IM player got DQ'ed after Nationals. Interesting that he actually lost 3 of the 5 matches he played, including his last two singles matches in the semis and finals. He lost in straight sets to another self-rate who has not been DQ'ed.

Yeah, this is just the quintessential example that they're all cheating.
 
Looks like one 4.0 IM player got DQ'ed after Nationals. Interesting that he actually lost 3 of the 5 matches he played, including his last two singles matches in the semis and finals. He lost in straight sets to another self-rate who has not been DQ'ed.
What about a rule that says if you have players disqualified on your team as a captain five out of six years--oh, by the way, aligning with national championship runs--you face some penalties? They could call it the **** Rule.

And how much does the sweetness of the winning get muted by the Monday-after ritualistic USTA disqualifications? Maybe it doesn't matter if the club memberships are up. I see no mention of ethics in the seminar.
 
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Does anyone know how he was DQ’ed? It can’t be by score since he lost the last two matches. Feels like it was another reason outside of dynamic disqualification.
 
So he can't dominate the upcoming 40 plus 4.0 and 8.0 mixed nationals
Correct, a post Nationals DQ/promotion means the player can no longer play at their level, and if they are in another Nationals event, or playing in a Fall league, the become ineligible.

Should the USTA DQ and reverse matches during Nationals? I believe so, but they don't seem inclined to do it.
 
You can lose and still get strikes if you get more games than the computer algorithm thinks you should.
It is also possible a player is sitting on two strikes, gets the third in a win, but then has losses that perhaps even lower their dynamic rating, but accruing the third strike still means they are DQ'd after Nationals.
 
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