dking68
G.O.A.T.
Sinner has improved significantly more. He’s 56-2 outside of Alcaraz and 56-1 if we exclude the retirement he faced this year to Griekspoor.
2025 WTF final - Alcaraz vs Sinner
- Thread starter tennis_pro
- Start date
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
But you can't say outside of Alcaraz?? The Alcaraz losses count. Just as the Sinner losses count against Alcaraz. By your logic then Alcaraz is 73-7 then on the season outside of Sinner.
dking68
G.O.A.T.
And who is more impressive? Had Sinner not received the 3 month ban, he would be the undisputed number 1. He played 75% of a season and only missed out number 1 by 500 points. Also is the second player in the 21st century to have back to back win rates over 90%.
And when saying outside of Sinner, he’s actually 67-7. Just saying
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
Had, if, could, would is nonsense dude. 1. Sinner broke the rules, cheated and was busted for doping, he get's zero credit for this and 2. Had he played those other 3 months, he likely would have had to go through Alcaraz to win more titles, something he obviously struggles with, and he also like Alcaraz could have dealt with more injuries.
Bottom line Alcaraz won 8 titles this season, was in 11 finals( which is more than Sinner has ever been in, in a season) and finished the year #1, and Alcaraz beat Sinner lead the H2H against Sinner this year. So yeah Alcaraz was the more impressive this season.
dking68
G.O.A.T.
And Sinner played 75% of a season making 10 finals out of 12 tournaments. Do your math sir. It’s not debatable that Sinner would be number 1 without the ban. Plus he’s the youngest player in the open era to make 4 major finals in a season. He also made 91% win rate as opposed to Alcaraz’s 88%
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
Dude obviously it's easier to maintain a higher win percentage with less matches played as it's a smaller sample size.
Sure Sinner made 10 finals but he lost 4 of those finals meaning his win percentage in those finals was 60%.
Alcaraz made 11 finals winning 8 of them including 4 final wins against Sinner, and had a final win percentage of 73%.
Alcaraz Sinner H2H, 4-2 in Alcaraz's favor.
Alcaraz wins
dking68
G.O.A.T.
You obviously forgot how Alcaraz flopped like a flying fish during the Sunshine Double
And Sinner has a 91% season win rate
dking68
G.O.A.T.
@KennyoFatoBoiyo Sinner is 56-2 outside of Alcaraz and 56-1 for non-retirements
Alcaraz is 67-7 outside of Sinner. He was easily taking home the sunshine double, without the ban.
Alcaraz is 67-7 outside of Sinner. He was easily taking home the sunshine double, without the ban.
vwanderaa
Rookie
It’s quite debatable.
It’s like saying “imagine Alcaraz hadn’t missed two months of clay season in 2024 with injury or missed 3 Masters” and using that to imply he would have won everything on clay AND the Channel Slam.
But it doesn’t work that way. He probably could win Channel Slam because he didn’t have to play the exhausting clay season and this year he played the clay season (except Madrid) but couldn’t win Channel Slam.
If Sinner hadn’t been banned, nothing is saying he would have managed to make all these finals back to back. He didn’t last year. Why would he now? Sinner isn’t known for his endurance.
Alcaraz is the deserving n1 this year because he won 4 big finals against Sinner and everything else is the domain of fanatics like you.
(Btw Sinner at 23 last year played a full season and his season was at best comparable to Alcaraz’s season at 22.)
And the concept of Alcaraz being an “early bloomer” is only in your mind when his biggest problem and improvement has been shot selection which improves with time. He’s much more similar to early Federer in that than he’s to early Nadal.
vwanderaa
Rookie
Cherry picking stats doesn’t really prove anything. Good job on being better at beating mugs or retiring at 0-5 when losing
Fabrivitx
Hall of Fame
Counting cincy and rome is clownish
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
Are you seriously just repeating yourself now? I already addressed the 91% win percentage, being due to a smaller sample size.
Alcaraz earlier in the season also had a win percentage over 90% when he had played the same number of matches Sinner finished the year with.
Last edited:
dking68
G.O.A.T.
I included the retirement loss against Alcaraz. He’s 56-2 outside of him, and 56-1 with no retirements. It’s obvious who is more dominant
dking68
G.O.A.T.
And for Rome, Sinner basically got up out of bed with no match play, not being able to practice with a single pro until 2 weeks before Rome. Sinner is coming for blood in 2026
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
Who cares all that proves is when it comes to beating the very best player in the world he doesn't match up well. Thanks for proving our point.
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
Whose fault is that?? The ATPs? Alcaraz's?
dking68
G.O.A.T.
Enjoy the early bloomer - Carlos “Early” Alcaraz
When he loses the ability to run around like a rabbit and loses 10% of his physicality, let’s see his career. Because Sinners ballstriking will sustain for the duration of his career
vwanderaa
Rookie
More dominant against who? The De Minaurs?
Why exclude his rival?
Basically saying “Sinner is more dominant if you exclude the really challenging matches”.
Who the f cares how dominant he’s against the mugs?
Compare Sinner at 22 and Alcaraz at 22 and tell me who had worse losses to players outside the top. Again, shot selection and focus. Improves with time, and more difficult for the more complete player with more choices.
dking68
G.O.A.T.
Compare Nadal and Djokovic at 22, and tell me who is the GOAT?
vwanderaa
Rookie
“As for Paris and Turin, Alcaraz basically got out of bed with no match play for a month due to injury and would have still beaten Sinner if not on one leg in the final”
vwanderaa
Rookie
What do Nadal and Djokovic have to do with Sinner and Alcaraz? Djokovic is younger. Alcaraz is far more aggressive than Nadal. Both Rafole and Alcaraz have better mentality in big matches than Sinner
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
Weak
vwanderaa
Rookie
When Sinner declines early and has joint problems like all the super tall tennis players, let’s see his career.
It’s all conjecture and delusion you’re using to discount Alcaraz being better at 2 years younger. He hasn’t stopped improving since he showed up on tour and he improved significantly the year he turned 22 just like Federer and Djokovic and Sinner. Good luck believing he’s done improving
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
He's also completely ignoring the fact that Alcaraz himself is an excellent ball striker and has a better forehand than Sinners with more versatility, unpredictability and when he wants power( Did you see the 112mph forehand winner against Felix?) His backhand is not quite as good as Sinner's but it's close. His serve is now in the top 10 and improving more and more and his net play is vastly superior to Sinners and he has better soft skills.
Sinner is much more predictable and one dimensional.
And then on top of all that yes Alcaraz is a superior athlete.
Choking is the kind of guy who said Nadal would be done at 27 and wouldn't win any more slams and we all saw how that panned out. Also Alcaraz is far more well balanced player than Rafa and good on all surfaces. He is more aggressive with his shots off the ground, and better at shortening points. He doesn't just try and grind you to death like Rafa would at times.
And he's only getting better now.
robyrolfo
Hall of Fame
There's a difference between physical development and game/skillset development. See below.
Like I said above, you guys are conflating two separate concepts.
Physically, Alcaraz was a very early bloomer. His body was fully developed at an early age, and physically he hasn't changed much for years now. This can happen in sports, but usually the younger/early bloomers don't tend to last as long. We shall see.
As for their tennis games and skillsets, BOTH players still have room for improvement and growth. It's tough to say who has more margin for growth, but a lot of Sinner's issues lately seemed to be mental, and that can certainly be improved upon. As can his serving consistency.
Alcaraz could probably keep improving his serve as well, and maybe some other areas. The idea that Alcaraz's forehand is better than Sinner's right now, though, is not credible.
dking68
G.O.A.T.
Plus Alcaraz was basically born with a racket in his hand, when he started the career of tennis, while Sinner was indecisive of tennis at age 12/13 and was a top alpine skiier in the Dolomites.
The current skill set of Alcaraz I don’t see changing much. Perhaps the shot selection, but otherwise I don’t see where-else it can improve.
Sinner is indeed a late bloomer physically, he was struggling to win Bo5 matches, despite his immense talent, and lacked the touch and feel which Alcaraz instinctively has, because as I said, he was born into the sport.
Hence why Sinner has made significant progress in the last 3 years while Alcaraz though making progress but not even as close to the extent of Sinner. If you look on the stats between Sinner and Alcaraz from 2022-2025, the stats don’t lie. Sinner has improved in every metric to a much larger extent than Alcaraz in DR, SPW, RPW, TPW as shown here, despite starting lower, and being 2 years older:
Last edited:
Fabrivitx
Hall of Fame
Ita incredibile how good he become starting so late, obviously he has the talent and athlete pedigree but the mentality is what really impressive for me
dking68
G.O.A.T.
He will have a 3-slam season next year, and I know it.
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
This was put to a vote by people on this very same forum about who's forehand is better and it wasn't even close with Alcaraz chosen as clearly having the better forehand.
He routinely hit's more forehand winners than Sinner does in their matches against each other. His top end forehand speed is higher than Sinners. Sinner might hit his forehand at an average speed higher because he just hits the same forehand shot over and over with less variety where Carlos mixes it up more, but firepower for firepower Carlos's forehand is more explosive as it connects with a straight arm, and he can hit better angles with it. Sinner connects with a bend arm and can't generate as much power with that technique.
Sinner however does have a slightly better backhand.
Here is a really good video analysis breakdown of what makes his forehand so good :
robyrolfo
Hall of Fame
Are you seriously trying to base your argument on the results of a TTW poll? Seriously? Thanks for the laugh...
Anyway, there is a lot more to overall forehand quality than top potential power/speed output. Yes, Alcaraz can hit some bullet forehands, but that's hardly all that matters.
Likewise, he may generate a higher number of "winners," but there is so much more to the game than that. Just consider that Alcaraz is very good at running down balls, so getting a clean winner against him is difficult. And that's just one reason why that stat isn't the determining factor.
Look, Alcaraz is definitely better than Sinner is some areas (like ear cupping... I'm kidding...), but baseline strokes and ball striking is not one of them. That's Sinner's bread and butter.
I'm an Alcaraz fan but I don't think it's really debatable that Sinner would've finished the year #1 without the ban. Missing 3 months and still ending the season with 11,500 points is RIDICULOUS.
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
I also linked a video with a full breakdown of this, and most tennis experts agree that Carlos's forehand is better, this is just one video breaking down why. Gill Gross has also broken this down before and many other analysts. I'm talking specifically here about his forehand, not his backhand.
robyrolfo
Hall of Fame
Gill Gross? Seriously?
dking68
G.O.A.T.
Gill Gross has been an Alcaraz fan for a gazillion and I’m convinced he, as well as Prakash Amritaj are the most biased analysts
Vincent-C
Legend
Mister Gross does fancy himself a tennis 'analyst'. I, don't.
dking68
G.O.A.T.
His analysis is mostly unjustified and unwarranted. I like Hugh Clarke - Thread of Order. He’s impartial and looks on the intangibles
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
I linked a video from someone provides excellent tennis analysis on YouTube who's a tennis coach, and he broke down why Carlos has the most devastating forehand and his name is not Gill Gross. That other guy just chose to ignore that part....I created a poll on this same site asking who people thought has the better forehand between Alcaraz and Sinner.
The vote was 40-5 in Alcaraz's favor:
This guy thinks his own opinion supercedes that of the sites consensus pick. And several other tennis analysts.
Gross does excellent analysis and breakdowns on his channel. And he also gives Sinner tons of credit in many of his videos. He's definitely not just a Alcaraz fanboy. Watch his latest video on the ATP final if you don't believe me. He mostly praised Sinner in the video and condemned Carlos.
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
We should just go with your own opinion then? Haha seriously??
Say whatever you want.
You're in the minority on this one.
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
Other thing I'll add here is you have some seriously flawed logic as to why Alcaraz hits more forehand winners than Sinner. If what you said is true, that the reason why Carlos hits more forehand winners than Sinner, is because he keeps running down balls and then returning them, then by that very same notion Alcaraz should find it hard to hit winners against Sinner.....especially given the fact that Sinner is statistically ranked #1 for return on the ATP tour and Alcaraz #2?
Nice try fella.
dking68
G.O.A.T.
Alky is gonna take some beatings from Sinner next year. Sinner is gonna have a positive seasonal h2h against him in 2026, for sure
Vincent-C
Legend
I'm looking forward to seeing how 2026 goes, and am hoping a Third Guy (Draper, or Musetti?) shows up.
dking68
G.O.A.T.
Draper in 2027. Musetti is a mug despite having immense talent
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
It's either gonna be Draper, Fils( I think everyone has forgotten about this guy cause he's been injured so long) , or Fonseca
dking68
G.O.A.T.
File is a choker. Fonseca doesn’t have good movement
Vincent-C
Legend
I get a good feeling about Fils, too. We'll see.
dking68
G.O.A.T.
He’s a choker
Vincent-C
Legend
Sampras was thought of as "soft" early in his career. Hard to say how it'll all go.
KennyoFatoBoiyo
Semi-Pro
Fils is still young(21) younger than Alcaraz in fact although not by much. He's already won titles and he's looked Elite at times. He might put it all together. He definitely has a high ceiling which is usually what's required to win big titles. Just needs more consistency and experience.
Fonseca has such a big serve and extremely big ground strokes that he might not need to be the best mover.
I'm a big Draper fan too( fellow Brit), he's won big titles already and proved he can compete at the highest level .... unfortunately he is injury prone however so perhaps even if he does find success it might be short lived if this trend continues.
Last edited:
dking68
G.O.A.T.
Sampras won a slam at age 19.
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
- Poll
- Poll
