+25% spin would change pickleball doubles more than +25% power

[ByeByePoly]

Coming from tennis … lately I find myself seldom wishing I had more power than the current paddle choices. In fact, recently playing better (having better results) switching to less powerful paddle than the thermoformed paddles. I can still hit hard enough drive, and enough pace for forehand pass down the line when it’s open. At the end of the day … unforced errors often decide wins and losses, and levels.

I feel differently about spin … I would buy 25% more spin immediately. For the last 6+ months I have played with carbon faced high tier spin paddles (Vatic Pros). In the last couple of months I have come close to a reliable topspin lob from the baseline. I would say it’s at the point of being just short of a reliable low user error shot. Some days yes, other days too many near misses. But on the days it’s on, I would call it a doubles kitchen skill centric disrupter. It changes the nature of doubles by giving some weight to baseline skills which are mostly neutered by the time you reach higher intermediate rec play.

There is a reason you don’t see topspin lobs in pro pickleball doubles. The small court dimensions and high level player skills makes it a shot that doesn’t work at that level. Give the pros 25% more spin … my guess is it totally changes that risk/reward ratio. The commentators are already predicting more successful lobbing as the trend.

Give a 3.5 doubles player a 7 out of 10 topspin baseline lob that clears opponents overhead and lands in jumping away from opponent, and they just became a 4.0.

 

[ByeByePoly]

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[sureshs]

Even if you had more spin, topspin lobs will be difficult because the low bounce would not allow much of an upward swing path.

 

[Airspun]

Even if you had more spin, topspin lobs will be difficult because the low bounce would not allow much of an upward swing path.

I've never seen one lob ever in pickleball in history to be honest.

 

[sureshs]

I've never seen one lob ever in pickleball in history to be honest.

You mean topspin lob. I routinely hit flat or underspin lobs in Pickleball.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Even if you had more spin, topspin lobs will be difficult because the low bounce would not allow much of an upward swing path.

I’m already running players into back wall on baseline topspin lobs. The problem is making 5 and missing 5 just long, very difficult to be a low unforced error shot. Better pickleball is just like better tennis … you will lose with high unforced error counts. With the tight court dimensions … the trajectory with enough spin has to be spot on. I have found the “enough spin” has been the most consistent, barely clearing an athletic player the most error prone. Short opponents are useful. Also catching players rushing with momentum after return of serve.

I’m pretty sure an additional 25% baseline topspin would get me to that low UE count. I say ”baseline” topspin because I think paddles differ on baseline spin and say kitchen spin (roll volley, speedups). I think the rough surface you can feel matters on the non-full swings. But on baseline full swings, many thermoformed carbon paddles that seem smoother to the touch sit at the top tier of paddle spin.

btw … the forehand technique I am using for baseline topspin lobs it pretty much the same as forehand speedups where you drop the tip of paddle down and roll face during swing (think tennis modern forehand, arm roll, windshield wiper finish).

 

[ByeByePoly]

I've never seen one lob ever in pickleball in history to be honest.

And now you have

 

[I Dink Too Much]

I was only a 4.31 DUPR last summer. I always saw "experts" admonishing players that lobs are effective only 20% of the time. So I started keeping track. My lob success rate is about 70%.

I've seen lots of pros lob. Ben and Collin Johns, Matt Wright, Tyson McGuffin, Anna Leigh Waters, Catherine Parenteau ... bunches.

I define a successful lob as ... an outright winner, or a lob which forces a weak return, shifting control of the NVZ to me or my team. My lobs are almost always topspin lobs ... but not 100%. I play with a CRBN 1 paddle and the grit helps a lot with imparting spin.

My tips for lobs are ... (a) Be sure you're good at dinking and drawing your opponents into the NVZ. If your dink stinks, your lob will not be effective. (b) Pay attention to how much your opponents are leaning into the kitchen during a dink battle. If they're over-committing and way forward on the balls of their feet (and you get a "dead dink") flip up a surprise lob.
(c) Almost always lob cross-court. It improves your margin for error tremendously.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I was only a 4.31 DUPR last summer. I always saw "experts" admonishing players that lobs are effective only 20% of the time. So I started keeping track. My lob success rate is about 70%.

I've seen lots of pros lob. Ben and Collin Johns, Matt Wright, Tyson McGuffin, Anna Leigh Waters, Catherine Parenteau ... bunches.

I define a successful lob as ... an outright winner, or a lob which forces a weak return, shifting control of the NVZ to me or my team. My lobs are almost always topspin lobs ... but not 100%. I play with a CRBN 1 paddle and the grit helps a lot with imparting spin.

My tips for lobs are ... (a) Be sure you're good at dinking and drawing your opponents into the NVZ. If your dink stinks, your lob will not be effective. (b) Pay attention to how much your opponents are leaning into the kitchen during a dink battle. If they're over-committing and way forward on the balls of their feet (and you get a "dead dink") flip up a surprise lob.
(c) Almost always lob cross-court. It improves your margin for error tremendously.

You are talking lobs from the kitchen … which are obviously already a legit shot. I think lobs at the kitchen off volley dinks are the easiest to disguise. I think added spin would also help at the kitchen, but I was talking about baseline topspin lobs in pickleball becoming a legit low UE (user error) shot like topspin lobs in tennis. I currently find myself hitting them on third shots, and when pinned back deep by opponents at kitchen. I have days like 7 out 10 (I don’t chart it), but I also have games where I miss all of them (usually barely, also ones made just inside baseline). If I was still playing competitive tennis tournaments or USTA that would be a shot/percentage I would keep in the bag … only low UEs won.

So why do I think the +25% topspin swings that topspin lob into a legit low UE shot. First … because I am already close enough to see it would not take much more (reps and/or spin). The shot has to be precise, can’t give yourself much safety margin on clearing opponents reach because only so much dip you can put on the wiffle with current top tier spin paddles ( 2000ish rpm ). Give me 25% more spin, now I have enough dip to not have to be so precise on trajectory/height. Obviously in such tight dimensions height of opponent and backward range of covering overheads really comes into play, but I have hit the occasional winning lob over 6’2”+ players. To me, that just reinforces in my mind that additional topspin will put more baseline topspin lobs into play. USAPA, the game, current players may not want that in the game, but this retired tennis player does.

In doubles, I don’t find myself wanting more topspin other than the topspin lob. I have plenty of spin for cross court dipper, topspin drops, mix flat drives in with off pace dippers, etc. It’s obvious the baseline topspin lob hasn’t been a thing in pickleball. I’ve had experienced/good players say “that’s new, haven’t seen that before”. Other open play friends refer to it as “that shot, that weird shot” … no, they didn’t come from tennis. 2500 RPM and baseline topspin lob would disrupt the kitchen cookie cutter game … good or bad for game? … won’t get a consensus on that but I hope we get to find out.

 

[I Dink Too Much]

I misunderstood.

BBP, it's a mere 15 ft from the NVZ to the baseline. That's not very much room to shape even a topspin lob from the baseline. (I lob from the baseline as only a desperation tactic.)

Perhaps USA Pickleball -- or whatever governing body(ies) -- will allow more grit again, but don't hold your breath.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I misunderstood.

BBP, it's a mere 15 ft from the NVZ to the baseline. That's not very much room to shape even a topspin lob from the baseline. (I lob from the baseline as only a desperation tactic.)

Perhaps USA Pickleball -- or whatever governing body(ies) -- will allow more grit again, but don't hold your breath.

Definitely not tennis where it can still be rising past opponent. From opposite baseline with opponent at kitchen, 29 feet to opponent. I think when it works, the apex is around where they are standing, with 15 feet for spin and gravity to bring down. I have just learned from reps and muscle memory without thinking of exact apex location. Perhaps it’s more like 3rd shot drops where apex is on your side of the net (apex of topspin lob occurs before reaching opponent, on the way down by opponent but with still enough clearance ???). I play tomorrow and will note where it peaked and headed down on successful ones. Maybe I will get someone to watch from the side. If not, wife will be there Friday and can guestimate. I know in my mind I am thinking/trying to have it start down right as it clears opponent, but we all know from tennis we aren’t always doing what we think we are.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I tried gauging the apex of my topspin lobs and will need help watching from the side. I do think I was wrong about there being no more rise past the opponents at the kitchen. That is both surprising and confusing … because unlike tennis where you can hit a power topspin lob because there is enough spin to bring it down, paddle/wiffle topspin lobs require less than full swing (unless you want to hit back wall ). Here is my theory … I have lots of theories. The 26g wiffle wants to fall with gravity … and a driven wiffle will lose to gravity quicker than a driven tennis ball. So … throw in spin to assist that dying wiffle near baseline on topspin lobs, and “so you are saying I have a chance”.

fyi … crosscourt lobs (topspin or otherwise) are your friend from baseline just like from kitchen. Since coming up just a little to low over the opponents backhand is generally WAY better than feeding overheads, my usual pattern is hitting baseline lob from left side crosscourt toward opponent left court corner (assuming opponent right handed). I’ve started to notice that there is also a good strategic topspin lob from right side … just enough to keep away from left side opponent overhead, but enough toward center to be hitting over right side player backhand. It’s a tighter window I think from left side lob, but it’s there.

 

[sureshs]

I see that "Raw Carbon Fiber" on the paddle face is the latest trend amongst manufacturers to increase spin.

@ByeByePoly try it

 

[ByeByePoly]

I see that "Raw Carbon Fiber" on the paddle face is the latest trend amongst manufacturers to increase spin.

@ByeByePoly try it

Thanks for heads up … you will be an important resource for future new paddle addicted.